3.5 Do you need to prepare venom once its exacted from an animal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Do you need to prepare venom once its exacted from an animal? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Harmor
09-07-04, 04:36 PM Do you need to make a Craft (Alchemy) or Craft (Poisonmaking) to prepare raw venom from an animal?

Scenario:

1. Exact poison from tiny viper
2. Coat blade with venom
3. Use in combat against creature

A. Are there any steps between #1 and #2 that are necessary.

B. When do you roll to see if you're poisoned? Is it only if you fumble?
Harmor
09-07-04, 04:39 PM ...
Phist
09-07-04, 05:49 PM Does the animal need to make changes to the substance to make it work?
Fixxxer
09-07-04, 06:22 PM I'd say no, so long as it's used the same day it's extracted. For each day beyond that, I would subtract a cumulative -5 to the required Fortitude save. Once the Fortitude save number is half the original number, I'd say that the vemon has lost it's effectiveness as a weapon. If you want to preserve the venom, beef it up, make it thicker, change it's type (changing cobra venom from injury to ingested, for example), then I'd require the poisonmaking check.

Bare in mind that this is in no way an official ruling. This is just how I would handle things.
Seeker95
09-07-04, 07:49 PM If one of my players wanted to extract venom, I would require...

1. Handle Animal skill check.
2. Successful grapple.
3. Standard poison use check.

Fail the first or third check and you get poisoned.
Fail the second check and you have to start over. :D

Basically, even if you specialize in such a procedure, you are taking big risks.

Handling venomous creatures is risky business to begin with. In the lab I worked at in college, the professor kept antivenon nearby whenever he would milk the copperheads and rattlers. He had been doing it for years, probably an average of once a day (more than one snake a day, but not on weekends or vacations). Even with all his experience, he still had the bite marks and slightly nerve-damaged left hand to show that experience is nothing compared to a minor distraction and bad luck. He had been bitten almost a dozen times in his life.
Fixxxer
09-07-04, 09:13 PM He had been bitten almost a dozen times in his life.

Ouch. Just out of semi-unrelated curiosity, he wasn't also milking cottonmouths, was he? Having been bitten by both a rattlesnake and a cottonmouth, I'd have to say that I'd rather shove an angry rattler down my pants than ever get bitten by a cottonmouth again.
Seeker95
09-07-04, 10:41 PM he wasn't also milking cottonmouths, was he?Rattlesnakes and copperheads. The lab I was in didn't deal with the more aquatic snakes.
Mister Mayhem
09-08-04, 03:13 AM I would have thought that most venoms would need significant thickening in order to have enough of it cling to a blade to make it useful. Its pretty watery stuff, in the main.

There are some animals that get by with toxic saliva, which is naturally much thicker than most venoms, but this tends to be very slow acting.

And remember, some venoms are perfectly harmless if you drink them, only causing harm if they enter a wound.

********

I'd say: Animal Handling to milk the snake.
(This assumes you already have a means to grab it. If its a wild, resisting snake, a grapple check would be required first.)

Craft: Alchemy to make the venom useful for anything other than injecting it with a syringe. The DC would be dependent on the virulence of the poison.

Then the usual poison use check when you come to use it.
General Dorsey
09-08-04, 04:57 AM I don't know what kind of shelf life I would put on the venoms. From what I understand, some can last quite some time. I've read that rattlesnake venom has been known to be lethal after 30 years.

Here (http://www.werc.usgs.gov/hq/snake.html)

* Sidewinder -- Venom is of moderate toxicity. Human lethal dose is 40 mg and people have died from envenomation. Average venom delivered per bite is 20-63 mg. Venom is still lethal to mice and cats after 27 years of storage. Venom causes deep tissue necrosis at site of bite.
* Speckled rattlesnake -- Venom is very potent. Minimum lethal dosage for 350 gram pigeon is 0.002-0.04 mg, for mice 0.05-0.12 mg. Adults contain up to 227 mg of venom (dry weight) but inject 0.16 mg. Dried venom potency undiminished after 27 years storage.
* Red diamond rattlesnake -- Long fangs (over 1/2 inch). Low in toxicity compared to other rattlesnakes but this is a large species capable of delivering large amounts of venom. Lethal dose for people is about 100 mg and 150-350 mg (up to 1.65 ml) is delivered per bite. People have died from envenomation. Lethality of venom decreases only slightly after 27 years, producing complete neuromuscular block of a cat diaphragm in 22 minutes. Tissue damaging properties of venom are 6-15 times greater in adults than juveniles. In one case history an adult man spent 9 days in the hospital (antivenom was administered) following a bite to the leg and was able to walk almost normally in two weeks.
* Southern Pacific rattlesnake (western rattlesnake) -- Venom primarily hemorrhagic (affecting blood) but some subspecies contain neurotoxic components. Toxicity of venom is greater than some larger species such as the western diamondback. This coupled with the high irritability of some individuals makes this a dangerous snake. Hemorrhagic, neurologic and proteolytic activity can all result from the same bite. Hemorrhagic activity in 18 minutes accompanied by some paralysis. Death in untreated cases may occur in 18 hours or up to 5 days. Lethal venom dose for humans is 70-160 mg and adults can produce up to 112 mg of venom (dried). Dried venom toxic to mice for at least 27 years.
* Western diamond back rattlesnake -- Fangs over 1/2 inch in length. Venom highly hemorrhagic. 53% of the enzymes cause breakdown of the circulatory system, 17% are neurotoxic, and 30% digest proteins. Hemorrhaging from vascular breakdown occurs in only 6 minutes. Stored venom loses little potency after 17 years. Lethal dose to humans is about 100 mg and snakes may contain up to 300 mg (dried). One snake yielded 1,145 mg (3.9 ml liquid)! This species probably responsible for more human deaths than any other snake in the U.S. Symptoms following bites include intense burning, vomiting, breathing difficulties, lowered blood pressure, increased heart rate, and secondary gangrene infection.

I would, of course, shorten these times since I highly doubt D&D storage facilities are as advanced as what we have in our world, but even cutting the times by 90%, you are looking at almost 3 years of potency.

And here (http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Dendrobates_histrionicus.html) is an article on the posion dart frog. It gives some interesting information on how the poison could actually affect the one wielder (what it means to fumble your skill check).

Something I found interesting from the same site:

The points are rolled in secretions collected from poison dart frogs and allowed to dry. The tip of the weapon will remain potent for about a year.

I would have to say, for game balance, that you only get one shot with it. After the weapon is used, the poison comes off.

I think Seeker95 had the right system down for what steps you need to take.

And just an interesting side note: the honey badger seems to be almost immune to some of the more dangerous venoms like the puff adder. This could be something your character could try to duplicate for himself so that even if he fails, he is merely knocked out for a while instead of waiting for a raise dead spell.
jmpt
09-08-04, 09:44 PM Song and Silence discussed this. Basically you add preservatives, etc. It used craft (poison making). I suppose it would be alright to use craft (alchemy). If you can milk the poison, then it costs you a lot less to make.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 09-07-04, 04:36 PM	Do you need to make a Craft (Alchemy) or Craft (Poisonmaking) to prepare raw venom from an animal? Scenario: 1. Exact poison from tiny viper 2. Coat blade with venom 3. Use in combat against creature A. Are there any steps between #1 and #2 that are necessary. B. When do you roll to see if you're poisoned? Is it only if you fumble?
Harmor 09-07-04, 04:39 PM	...
Phist 09-07-04, 05:49 PM	Does the animal need to make changes to the substance to make it work?
Fixxxer 09-07-04, 06:22 PM	I'd say no, so long as it's used the same day it's extracted. For each day beyond that, I would subtract a cumulative -5 to the required Fortitude save. Once the Fortitude save number is half the original number, I'd say that the vemon has lost it's effectiveness as a weapon. If you want to preserve the venom, beef it up, make it thicker, change it's type (changing cobra venom from injury to ingested, for example), then I'd require the poisonmaking check. Bare in mind that this is in no way an official ruling. This is just how I would handle things.
Seeker95 09-07-04, 07:49 PM	If one of my players wanted to extract venom, I would require... 1. Handle Animal skill check. 2. Successful grapple. 3. Standard poison use check. Fail the first or third check and you get poisoned. Fail the second check and you have to start over. :D Basically, even if you specialize in such a procedure, you are taking big risks. Handling venomous creatures is risky business to begin with. In the lab I worked at in college, the professor kept antivenon nearby whenever he would milk the copperheads and rattlers. He had been doing it for years, probably an average of once a day (more than one snake a day, but not on weekends or vacations). Even with all his experience, he still had the bite marks and slightly nerve-damaged left hand to show that experience is nothing compared to a minor distraction and bad luck. He had been bitten almost a dozen times in his life.
Fixxxer 09-07-04, 09:13 PM	He had been bitten almost a dozen times in his life. Ouch. Just out of semi-unrelated curiosity, he wasn't also milking cottonmouths, was he? Having been bitten by both a rattlesnake and a cottonmouth, I'd have to say that I'd rather shove an angry rattler down my pants than ever get bitten by a cottonmouth again.
Seeker95 09-07-04, 10:41 PM	he wasn't also milking cottonmouths, was he?Rattlesnakes and copperheads. The lab I was in didn't deal with the more aquatic snakes.
Mister Mayhem 09-08-04, 03:13 AM	I would have thought that most venoms would need significant thickening in order to have enough of it cling to a blade to make it useful. Its pretty watery stuff, in the main. There are some animals that get by with toxic saliva, which is naturally much thicker than most venoms, but this tends to be very slow acting. And remember, some venoms are perfectly harmless if you drink them, only causing harm if they enter a wound. ******** I'd say: Animal Handling to milk the snake. (This assumes you already have a means to grab it. If its a wild, resisting snake, a grapple check would be required first.) Craft: Alchemy to make the venom useful for anything other than injecting it with a syringe. The DC would be dependent on the virulence of the poison. Then the usual poison use check when you come to use it.
General Dorsey 09-08-04, 04:57 AM	I don't know what kind of shelf life I would put on the venoms. From what I understand, some can last quite some time. I've read that rattlesnake venom has been known to be lethal after 30 years. Here (http://www.werc.usgs.gov/hq/snake.html) * Sidewinder -- Venom is of moderate toxicity. Human lethal dose is 40 mg and people have died from envenomation. Average venom delivered per bite is 20-63 mg. Venom is still lethal to mice and cats after 27 years of storage. Venom causes deep tissue necrosis at site of bite. * Speckled rattlesnake -- Venom is very potent. Minimum lethal dosage for 350 gram pigeon is 0.002-0.04 mg, for mice 0.05-0.12 mg. Adults contain up to 227 mg of venom (dry weight) but inject 0.16 mg. Dried venom potency undiminished after 27 years storage. * Red diamond rattlesnake -- Long fangs (over 1/2 inch). Low in toxicity compared to other rattlesnakes but this is a large species capable of delivering large amounts of venom. Lethal dose for people is about 100 mg and 150-350 mg (up to 1.65 ml) is delivered per bite. People have died from envenomation. Lethality of venom decreases only slightly after 27 years, producing complete neuromuscular block of a cat diaphragm in 22 minutes. Tissue damaging properties of venom are 6-15 times greater in adults than juveniles. In one case history an adult man spent 9 days in the hospital (antivenom was administered) following a bite to the leg and was able to walk almost normally in two weeks. * Southern Pacific rattlesnake (western rattlesnake) -- Venom primarily hemorrhagic (affecting blood) but some subspecies contain neurotoxic components. Toxicity of venom is greater than some larger species such as the western diamondback. This coupled with the high irritability of some individuals makes this a dangerous snake. Hemorrhagic, neurologic and proteolytic activity can all result from the same bite. Hemorrhagic activity in 18 minutes accompanied by some paralysis. Death in untreated cases may occur in 18 hours or up to 5 days. Lethal venom dose for humans is 70-160 mg and adults can produce up to 112 mg of venom (dried). Dried venom toxic to mice for at least 27 years. * Western diamond back rattlesnake -- Fangs over 1/2 inch in length. Venom highly hemorrhagic. 53% of the enzymes cause breakdown of the circulatory system, 17% are neurotoxic, and 30% digest proteins. Hemorrhaging from vascular breakdown occurs in only 6 minutes. Stored venom loses little potency after 17 years. Lethal dose to humans is about 100 mg and snakes may contain up to 300 mg (dried). One snake yielded 1,145 mg (3.9 ml liquid)! This species probably responsible for more human deaths than any other snake in the U.S. Symptoms following bites include intense burning, vomiting, breathing difficulties, lowered blood pressure, increased heart rate, and secondary gangrene infection. I would, of course, shorten these times since I highly doubt D&D storage facilities are as advanced as what we have in our world, but even cutting the times by 90%, you are looking at almost 3 years of potency. And here (http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Dendrobates_histrionicus.html) is an article on the posion dart frog. It gives some interesting information on how the poison could actually affect the one wielder (what it means to fumble your skill check). Something I found interesting from the same site: The points are rolled in secretions collected from poison dart frogs and allowed to dry. The tip of the weapon will remain potent for about a year. I would have to say, for game balance, that you only get one shot with it. After the weapon is used, the poison comes off. I think Seeker95 had the right system down for what steps you need to take. And just an interesting side note: the honey badger seems to be almost immune to some of the more dangerous venoms like the puff adder. This could be something your character could try to duplicate for himself so that even if he fails, he is merely knocked out for a while instead of waiting for a raise dead spell.
jmpt 09-08-04, 09:44 PM	Song and Silence discussed this. Basically you add preservatives, etc. It used craft (poison making). I suppose it would be alright to use craft (alchemy). If you can milk the poison, then it costs you a lot less to make.