Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ellanon 06-25-05, 10:17 PM	3.5 Keen Rapier What would the threat range be? 18-20 would become 15-20?
Azual 06-25-05, 10:19 PM	... cha... :confused:
Ellanon 06-25-05, 10:47 PM	3.5 Keen Rapier What would the threat range be? 18-20 would become 15-20? What would the threat range be on a 3.5 rapier with keen (3.5)? 15-20 x2, right?
Roreck 06-25-05, 10:52 PM	you are correct cheesey man Ellanon that is how it works according to the rules. However I would like to point the danger of such an item in the hands of a munchkin or min/maxer. So if you are a DM be careful. If you are a player expect to make your DM cry (also do not be surprised if a rogue comes by and steals such rapier). btw what is the crit. modifier on a rapier X2 or X3 ?
Taeldrin Laesrash 06-25-05, 11:20 PM	A Keen Elven Thinblade (From Complete Warrior)is even more dangerous (Exotic weapon though). 1d8+Str modifier, 15-20/x2.
DrMorganes 06-25-05, 11:52 PM	btw what is the crit. modifier on a rapier X2 or X3 ? x2. x3 critical multipliers only appear - if memory serves - on weapons that threaten on a natural 20 only.
Trevan0 06-26-05, 12:07 AM	you are correct cheesey man Ellanon that is how it works according to the rules. However I would like to point the danger of such an item in the hands of a munchkin or min/maxer. So if you are a DM be careful. If you are a player expect to make your DM cry (also do not be surprised if a rogue comes by and steals such rapier). It's too bad that statistically, there are better things of equivalent value that cause more damage than a +1 Keen Rapier. So no, it's not really dangerous if it falls into the hands of the oh scary munchkin or min/maxer.
Ellanon 06-27-05, 09:03 PM	It's too bad that statistically, there are better things of equivalent value that cause more damage than a +1 Keen Rapier. So no, it's not really dangerous if it falls into the hands of the oh scary munchkin or min/maxer. Sean Reynolds (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html) goes so far as to propose allowing Improved Critical and Keen to stack in 3.5, like it previously did in 3.0. After reading his rant on the subject, I may change how it works in my game. =)
Swarms 06-27-05, 09:09 PM	Are there any weapons with a 15-20 threat range without enhancements? Because if there are, couldn't you have a keen whatever with improved crit and have almost a 50%chance of crit?
Scipion Emilien 06-27-05, 09:11 PM	Are there any weapons with a 15-20 threat range without enhancements? Because if there are, couldn't you have a keen whatever with improved crit and have almost a 50%chance of crit? By DMG rule, keen doesn't stack with improved critical.
Ellanon 06-27-05, 10:13 PM	By DMG rule, keen doesn't stack with improved critical. Thanks for you input. It's always appreciated when someone is there to keep us abreast of the rules. However, I suggest reading the entire thread before posting. You never know when your input, while accurate, may be irrelevant to the conversation. Anyhow... Are there any weapons with a 15-20 threat range without enhancements? Because if there are, couldn't you have a keen whatever with improved crit and have almost a 50%chance of crit? I have checked every source that I have access to and the lowest threat range I could find is 18-20.
Vaelan 06-28-05, 05:32 AM	However I would like to point the danger of such an item in the hands of a munchkin or min/maxer. So if you are a DM be careful. If you are a player expect to make your DM cry (also do not be surprised if a rogue comes by and steals such rapier). btw what is the crit. modifier on a rapier X2 or X3 ? I really hope you're joking. A Keen rapier isn't anything to be worried about. Oh no, the DM is going to cry because I do less damage than the greatsword-wielding Fighter!
Escef 06-28-05, 05:51 AM	Sean Reynolds (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html) goes so far as to propose allowing Improved Critical and Keen to stack in 3.5, like it previously did in 3.0. After reading his rant on the subject, I may change how it works in my game. =) I've read Mr. Reynolds rant, and it doesn't really impress me. In examples where no AC is given he simply assumes all crits are confirmed. In the only example where he uses actual AC's and attack bonuses all he manages to prove is that extra damage dice are more valuable than a threat range increase.
Ellanon 06-28-05, 09:54 AM	...all he manages to prove is that extra damage dice are more valuable than a threat range increase. Exactly. My players have been asking about this. I now have no argument for not allowing Increased Crit and Keen stacking. They'll be happy, and I will know that it means little.
Ilium 06-28-05, 10:28 AM	I haven't read Sean Reynolds' article, but I wonder about this. For a rapier (when you are talking about an extra 1d6 for a crit) I'm sure it's accurate. For a Greataxe which will go from 1d12 to 3d12 on a crit, I wonder. I know the axe's threat range is only 20 to start with, but if you allow keen and improved crit to stack that will change to either 18-20 or 17-20 depending on how you do it. I don't want to get into the math, but that's a big increase in the number of devastating crits you'll see. Just something to keep in mind.
Escef 06-28-05, 10:42 AM	I now have no argument for not allowing Increased Crit and Keen stacking. They'll be happy, and I will know that it means little. Actually, Mr. Reynolds does not prove it means little. As I said, he does prove that extra damage dic are worth more than a threat range increase, yet he failed to prove or disprove the power level of allowing keen and improved crit to stack, which is what he said he was trying to do. In effect, he hasn't proven it to be balanced or unbalanced. The best I can say about his arguement is "inconclusive".
DDogwood 06-28-05, 12:29 PM	A keen rapier isn't anything special - compare it to a Keen Heavy Pick, Longsword or Greatsword. Assume a Str of 14, and that all crits are confirmed. Keen +1 Rapier = 1d6+3, crit 15-20/x2 (30%) Normal damage = 4-9 points Critical damage = 8-18 points Average damage = 8 points Keen +1 Longsword = 1d8+3, crit 17-20/x2 (20%) Normal damage = 4-11 points Critical damage = 8-22 points Average damage = 9 points Keen +1 Heavy Pick = 1d6+3, crit 19-20/x4 (10%) Normal damage = 4-9 points Critical damage = 16-36 points Average damage = 8 points Keen +1 Greatsword = 2d6+4, crit 17-20/x2 (20%) Normal damage = 6-16 points Critical damage = 12-32 points Average damage = 13 points The Heavy Pick is virtually identical to the Rapier, except that it can't be finessed, and the Longsword edges them both out. The Greatsword stands head and shoulders above any of them, except that it can't normally be used with a shield. Bottom line is that a great crit range (or crit multiplier) on a crappy weapon just isn't that impressive.
Lord Ian Stark 06-28-05, 12:38 PM	Exactly. My players have been asking about this. I now have no argument for not allowing Increased Crit and Keen stacking. They'll be happy, and I will know that it means little. As long as whats good for the PC's is good for the NPC's its all relative.
Azzy 06-28-05, 12:48 PM	I've read Mr. Reynolds rant, and it doesn't really impress me. In examples where no AC is given he simply assumes all crits are confirmed. In the only example where he uses actual AC's and attack bonuses all he manages to prove is that extra damage dice are more valuable than a threat range increase. I find that to be reasonable--there are too many variables to take into consideration every total attack bonus vs. evey AC. In assuming that all crits are confirmed, we see the "worst case" senario (where the average damage dealt is at its apex). If threats are not asumed to always be confirmed, the average damage dealt will typically be less (but will never be greater) and we'll see less of a stress point. Now, to consider balance--all the above is well and good, but we'd need to compare total average damage output of Impoved Critical, Keen Weapons to the average damage output of other sources (like spells). Since, by the rules, 7th-8th level is the soonest that PCs should have a +1, Keen weapon (see DMG, p. 54), that'd be your starting point.
DDogwood 06-28-05, 01:08 PM	Now, to consider balance--all the above is well and good, but we'd need to compare total average damage output of Impoved Critical, Keen Weapons to the average damage output of other sources (like spells). Since, by the rules, 7th-8th level is the soonest that PCs should have a +1, Keen weapon (see DMG, p. 54), that'd be your starting point. It's tough to compare weapons to spells - spells have a limited number of uses per day, while weapons are more or less unlimited. Weapons get iterative attacks, while most spells don't. Spells can often affect multiple targets, while weapons can't. Many damaging spells allow a Reflex save to avoid half (or all) of the damage, but no weapons allow this. Ranged Touch Attack spells are more likely to hit than weapons, but casters usually have a much lower attack bonus than combat specialists. Casters are less likely to take damage in an encounter, but are more likely to be killed or incapacitated when they do. This is all before you account for variations in DMs (some use more spellcasting opponents, some use fewer; some use more encounters per day, some use fewer; some like to pick on the fighters, some like to pick on the casters). I agree with your idea to compare the damage to 7th-8th level spells, but I'm not sure it's feasible.
Azzy 06-28-05, 01:16 PM	A keen rapier isn't anything special - compare it to a Keen Heavy Pick, Longsword or Greatsword. Assume a Str of 14, and that all crits are confirmed. Keen +1 Rapier = 1d6+3, crit 15-20/x2 (30%) Normal damage = 4-9 points Critical damage = 8-18 points Average damage = 8 points Keen +1 Longsword = 1d8+3, crit 17-20/x2 (20%) Normal damage = 4-11 points Critical damage = 8-22 points Average damage = 9 points Keen +1 Heavy Pick = 1d6+3, crit 19-20/x4 (10%) Normal damage = 4-9 points Critical damage = 16-36 points Average damage = 8 points Keen +1 Greatsword = 2d6+4, crit 17-20/x2 (20%) Normal damage = 6-16 points Critical damage = 12-32 points Average damage = 13 points The Heavy Pick is virtually identical to the Rapier, except that it can't be finessed, and the Longsword edges them both out. The Greatsword stands head and shoulders above any of them, except that it can't normally be used with a shield. Bottom line is that a great crit range (or crit multiplier) on a crappy weapon just isn't that impressive. Right, here's another way of looking at it. Average Weapon Damage is figure using the following equation: Average Die/Dice Damage +([Average Die/Dice Damage × Number of Bonus Dice] × Threat Range's %) = Average Weapon Damage This assumes that all critical threats are confirmed. No damage bonuses (from Str, etc.) were included in the examples below. A rapier does 1d6 damage (average 3.5), has a threat range of 18-20 (threatens a crit 15% of the time), has a critical multiplier of ×2 (dealing +1d6 damage—average +3.5—on a successful crit). Average Weapon Damage: 3.5 + ([3.5 × 1] × 0.15) = 4.025 Average Weapon Damage (with Keen): 3.5 + ([3.5 × 1] × 0.3) = 4.55 A longsword does 1d8 damage (average 4.5), has a threat range of 19-20 (threatens a crit 10% of the time), has a critical multiplier of ×2 (dealing +1d8 damage—average +4.5—on a successful crit). Average Weapon Damage: 4.5 + ([4.5 × 1] × 0.1) = 4.95 Average Weapon Damage (with Keen): 4.5 + ([4.5 × 1] × 0.2) = 5.4 A battleaxe does 1d8 damage (average 4.5), has a threat range of 20 (threatens a crit 5% of the time), has a critical multiplier of ×3 (dealing +2d8 damage—average +9—on a successful crit). Average Weapon Damage: 4.5 + ([4.5 × 2] × 0.05) = 4.95 Average Weapon Damage (with Keen): 4.5 + ([4.5 × 2] × 0.1) = 5.4 A heavy pick does 1d6 damage (average 3.5), has a threat range of 20 (threatens a crit 5% of the time), has a critical multiplier of ×4 (dealing +3d6 damage—average +10.5—on a successful crit). Average Weapon Damage: 3.5 + ([3.5 × 3] × 0.05) = 4.025 Average Weapon Damage (with Keen): 3.5 + ([3.5 × 3] × 0.1) = 4.55 A greatsword does 2d6 damage (average 7), has a threat range of 19-20 (threatens a crit 10% of the time), has a critical multiplier of ×2 (dealing +2d6 damage—average +7—on a successful crit). Average Weapon Damage: 7 + ([7 × 1] × 0.1) = 7.7 Average Weapon Damage (with Keen): 7 + ([7 × 1] × 0.2) = 8.4
Azzy 06-28-05, 01:31 PM	It's tough to compare weapons to spells - spells have a limited number of uses per day, while weapons are more or less unlimited. Weapons get iterative attacks, while most spells don't. Spells can often affect multiple targets, while weapons can't. Many damaging spells allow a Reflex save to avoid half (or all) of the damage, but no weapons allow this. Ranged Touch Attack spells are more likely to hit than weapons, but casters usually have a much lower attack bonus than combat specialists. Casters are less likely to take damage in an encounter, but are more likely to be killed or incapacitated when they do. This is all before you account for variations in DMs (some use more spellcasting opponents, some use fewer; some use more encounters per day, some use fewer; some like to pick on the fighters, some like to pick on the casters). I agree with your idea to compare the damage to 7th-8th level spells, but I'm not sure it's feasible. I agree... It certainly seems like a headache waiting to happen--that's why I didn't try. ;)
Giant Turtle 06-28-05, 08:23 PM	All of you have made fair points, but they are all low level based. Consider a higher level, when a +7 weapon (Total, not enhancement) would be available. Consider that, if gained, a character with a keen rapier(crit 15-20) could have the skewering enchantment (The piercing equivalant to Vorpal for those of you not familiar), meaning that, 30% of the time, assuming the enemy isn't immune to crits, the enemy dies, no save. If you were to stack the multiplier, it would drop even more. I am highly opposed to the ability to let Keen and Improved Critical stack. I once had a player (in 3.0) duel-wield (all the duel-wield feats, was a fighter), use +1 Keen Vorpal Scimitars with the Improved Critical Feat and Whirlwind to annihalate large groups of critters, working just as well against single opponents. Also, while one could adjust to this by using ethereal creatures, constructs, undead, fortification, and other anti-crit critters and gear, that is completely unfair to the character, removing his ability in combat. Also, the other characters were ready for those... talk about a min/max group... (BTW, I nipped that in the bud after a while, so it's not a problem for me anymore)
Azzy 06-28-05, 08:46 PM	All of you have made fair points, but they are all low level based. Consider a higher level, when a +7 weapon (Total, not enhancement) would be available. Consider that, if gained, a character with a keen rapier(crit 15-20) could have the skewering enchantment (The piercing equivalant to Vorpal for those of you not familiar), meaning that, 30% of the time, assuming the enemy isn't immune to crits, the enemy dies, no save. If you were to stack the multiplier, it would drop even more. I am highly opposed to the ability to let Keen and Improved Critical stack. I once had a player (in 3.0) duel-wield (all the duel-wield feats, was a fighter), use +1 Keen Vorpal Scimitars with the Improved Critical Feat and Whirlwind to annihalate large groups of critters, working just as well against single opponents. Also, while one could adjust to this by using ethereal creatures, constructs, undead, fortification, and other anti-crit critters and gear, that is completely unfair to the character, removing his ability in combat. Also, the other characters were ready for those... talk about a min/max group... (BTW, I nipped that in the bud after a while, so it's not a problem for me anymore) In 3.5, vorpal weapons only sever heads on a natural 20 (and a successful confirmation roll). If the skewering weapon functions like vorpal in that regard, it would only instant kill on a nat 20 as well. So, while that was an issue in 3.0, it's been fixed in 3.5 (thankfully!). BTW, is what book is the "skewering" enchantment from? I'm not familiar with it.
Zardnaar 06-28-05, 10:11 PM	Its a good thing you can't crit on 12-20 anymore. We had some crazy PCs in 3.0 because of this. However the Vorpal rules have been changed in 3.5 and a two handed weapon style seems the best style as well- requires 2 feats maybe and deals with DR the best and usually inflicts the most damage as well. If Keen and Improved crit stacked in 3.5 you would just have people wielding keen jovars(basically a greatsword that crits on 18-20 exotic weapon). that crit on 12-20. The rapier just isn't that good IMHO.
Giant Turtle 06-28-05, 11:45 PM	I believe its from Magic of Faerun, but I could be wrong, I stopped looking it up because it's identical to Vorpal. It is made with the spell equivalent to keen for piercing that I know is in Magic of Faerun. That spell and Circle of Death, just like vorpal.
Ellanon 06-29-05, 12:31 AM	Another note: Vorpal is a +5 enhancement and cannot be combined with Keen as far as I understand the +10 limits (+5 for enhancement and +5 for abilities). This may be wrong, but this is how we have done it in my games.
Yak of Darkness 06-29-05, 12:50 AM	Another note: Vorpal is a +5 enhancement and cannot be combined with Keen as far as I understand the +10 limits (+5 for enhancement and +5 for abilities). This may be wrong, but this is how we have done it in my games.The +10 limit can also be "+1 enhancement, +9 abilities." There is a cap at +5 for the enhancement, but the abilities don't have that limit. EDIT: But a keen/vorpal weapon causing a problem is irrelevant in 3.5, where vorpal only does its mojo on a natural 20.
Sulaco 06-29-05, 02:15 PM	Remember that you still need to hit for the expanded critical range to matter. Only a natural 20 is an auto-hit.
Ellanon 06-29-05, 02:29 PM	The +10 limit can also be "+1 enhancement, +9 abilities." There is a cap at +5 for the enhancement, but the abilities don't have that limit. EDIT: But a keen/vorpal weapon causing a problem is irrelevant in 3.5, where vorpal only does its mojo on a natural 20. Really?!? I could have sworn that abilities were limited. How damaging would my limit be overall? I hold that you cannot have beyond +5 in abilities until after you enter the Epic arena.
Bulabase 06-29-05, 04:48 PM	Any discussion of critical threat ranges that assumes threats automatically verify greatly overvalues high threat ranges. This is particularly true at higher levels with multiple iterative attacks. A high proportion threats fail to confirm unless helped by feats such as "power critical" or spells such as "bless weapon." If inflicting more damage is all you want to do, keen/improved crit. are not optimal choices even when stacked.
Escef 06-29-05, 05:32 PM	If inflicting more damage is all you want to do, keen/improved crit. are not optimal choices even when stacked. Agreed, a better way is to stack multiple elemental effects or alignments. (A +1 flaming shock frost axiomatic holy sword is really scarey to NPCs who are evil and/or chaotic.)
kalstrand 06-30-05, 03:00 PM	I read Mr. Reynolds rant and have a couple problems with it. First he says its simply an extra d6 or d8 weapon damage. I don't know abouty anyone else but according to my PHB you roll damage equal to your crit multiplier including all bonuses but not extra damage such as power attack and elemental damage and such. So on each crit it is weapon damage and bonuses times the crit multiplier. Second I didn't see a keen improved crit rapier compared to a keen improved crit greatsword or longsword. Third the question isn't how much damage the wepons do in relation to each other. Granted a crit on a rapier only does about as much damage as a normal greatsword but you also have to figure that if the improved crit feat stacks with keen for a rapier it also stacks for a greatsword. So the crit from a greatsword makes a massive difference in an encounter. I know people will argue that with the lower range that even with improved crit and keen stacking it will offset the larger damage. To them I say look at a Dervish. Even without the 2 being able to stack with 7 attacks a round I crit on average once every 2 full attack actions using 2 bastard swords. If I could stack keen with my improved crit I would wager that would bring that average to a crit every full round attack.
xmcknight 06-30-05, 09:25 PM	Really?!? I could have sworn that abilities were limited. How damaging would my limit be overall? I hold that you cannot have beyond +5 in abilities until after you enter the Epic arena. First: Are you talking about a natural ability mod of +5 or a magicaly enhanced ability mod? Second: Why in either case?
Deacon Liadon 07-01-05, 07:36 PM	You can't make them yourself. You'ld need to be level 18 minimum to get it up to +6. If your in a high magic campaign then the possibilities of getting an NPC to do it increase but that can be very dangerous because it means gi9ving your PCs weapons before they should be able to use them and unbalances the game severely and a DM who does that should be shot…in the face…with a hammer. (No offence to my GM who did that in his last campaign.)
Ellanon 07-01-05, 08:00 PM	You can't make them yourself. You'ld need to be level 18 minimum to get it up to +6. If your in a high magic campaign then the possibilities of getting an NPC to do it increase but that can be very dangerous because it means gi9ving your PCs weapons before they should be able to use them and unbalances the game severely and a DM who does that should be shot…in the face…with a hammer. (No offence to my GM who did that in his last campaign.) ROFL Read my thread on that very subject...
Frozen Yakman 07-01-05, 08:46 PM	I see major math mistakes on this thread. 18-20 means you threaten on an 18, 19, or 20 provided that each number would also result in a hit! 15% is the chance that you'll roll one of those three numbers but it is NOT the chance that you'll roll a critical threat. You cannot factor out the chance to hit from an average damage equation in DnD and it cannot be said to average to 0.5 and forgotten. If you want to calculate average damage in any form that remotely resembles accuracy start by simulating the rolls you actually make to hit the target. You WILL need a summation construct (from 2-20) and you most likely will need conditional probability because the to-hit roll and the threat roll are the same roll. You will probably want to use a spreadsheet program. If you use some other method (like the ever so popular point system, :banghead: ) do not claim that the results remotely resemble average damage. They don't. They give a point-system scale value that may or may not relate to the true average damage of the weapon in any way. At best the function that translates point-system scale to average damage is non-linearly proportional.
Dartanel 07-01-05, 08:51 PM	How about we continue the scenario? (Note, this is just me feeling like doing some math) Let's say now the fighter in question is 12th level and is choosing between Improved critical (Which will stack in this scenario) and Greater specialization (Don't ask why, just go with it) Let's also increase his strength to 20 after mods and increase the weapon to +1 Keen Flaming Burst Keen +1 Flaming Burst Rapier Imrpoved Critical = 1d6+8+1d6, crit 12-20/x2 + 1d10 (45%) Normal damage = 10-20 points Critical damage = 21-50 points Average damage = 24.225 points Greater Specialization = 1d6+10+1d6, crit 15-20/x2 + 1d10 (30%) Normal damage = 12-22 points Critical damage = 25-54 points Average damage = 23.75 points Keen +1 Longsword Improved Critical = 1d8+8+1d6, crit 15-20/x2 + 1d10 (30%) Normal damage = 10-22 points Critical damage = 21-54 points Average damage = 22.45 points Greater Specialization = 1d8+10+1d6, crit 17-20/x2 + 1d10 (20%) Normal damage = 12-24 points Critical damage = 25-58 points Average damage = 22.7 points Keen +1 Heavy Pick Improved Critical = 1d6+8+1d6, crit 18-20/x4 + 3d10 (15%) Normal damage = 10-20 points Critical damage = 43-110 points Average damage = 24.225 points Greater Specialization = 1d6+10+1d6, crit 19-20/x4 + 3d10 (10%) Normal damage = 12-22 points Critical damage = 51-118 points Average damage = 23.75 points Conclusion: I'm bored. And it's better to stick with what you're good at.
Frozen Yakman 07-01-05, 09:03 PM	The reason crit-stacking was removed is because it is DnD design policy that anything available to the warrior-types most decrease in power as they gain levels. This is true of every feat that has an improved/greater version of itself (with the biggest offenders being the TWF chain) and extends to weapon enhancements as well. Crit-stacking violated this rule as it actually got better at higher levels. Thus it had to be removed.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-01-05, 09:22 PM	If you keep the 3.5 rule, just ditch Keen entirely. What's the point of dropping 4kgp when you can wiat a few levels and make every weapon of type effectively keen?