Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zardnaar 03-20-08, 03:28 PM	Heres a link to a 65 page preview PDF of Paizos RPG system as they're not going to go with 4th ed. I've looked through it and its quite impressive. Its basically 3.75. Interesting races and they've only got a few classes done ATM. http://paizo.com/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG
MacrossSD 03-20-08, 06:53 PM	Heres a link to a 65 page preview PDF of Paizos RPG system as they're not going to go with 4th ed. I've looked through it and its quite impressive. Its basically 3.75. Interesting races and they've only got a few classes done ATM. http://paizo.com/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG A lot of it's good, a lot of it's meh (but it's still the Alpha test, so this is where they want to find "meh" and get rid of it.) The two things I am head-over-heels happy to see are the much saner and slower XP progressions (in EttRoG, my players have been pole-vaulting up in levels -- leveling isn't an achievement so much as a series of minor speedbumps to them) and the extremely elegant "why the devil didn't WotC think of it first" grapple/bull-rush/disarm rules that don't need 3 pages and a $500/hour lawyer to decipher? I'm not too fond of some of the more powerful feats that look like they can be activated every other round, or of the "school powers" one of which -- I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP -- allows an 18th-level mage to cast Wish once a day. :OMG! :shocked: :blink:
The ShapeLess One 03-20-08, 08:51 PM	MacrossSD Not to nit pick, but you mean heels-over-head. As you are already head over heels. I downloaded it to day. I liked a lot of what I have seen so far. I could skip this whole 4e thing and buy this when it is complete.
Barmp 03-21-08, 02:16 AM	MacrossSD Not to nit pick, but you mean heels-over-head. As you are already head over heels. I downloaded it to day. I liked a lot of what I have seen so far. I could skip this whole 4e thing and buy this when it is complete. I never really understood that saying either, but it's always been head-over-heels as far as I remember. :P Also, I'm looking forward to reading through this in more detail. Hopefully it can help re-invigorate my current campaign as we've been seduced with running small adventures with the Experience characters and basic monsters/rules compiled over at ENWorld.
Demon_Paladin 03-21-08, 02:29 AM	I like what I'm seeing so far. Regardless though, I'm using this version of the fighter.
Airos 03-21-08, 02:29 AM	Interesting... I've downloaded the free PDF, and hope to give it a look over this weekend. If I like what I see, I'll fully support Paizo's continuation of the 3.5 rules. I'm glad at least one company won't ignore those of us that choose to stick with 3.5, at least in the short term. Hopefully Pathfinder receives enough support from the fans so it will continue well into the future.
Naderion 03-21-08, 07:12 AM	I'm not too fond of some of the more powerful feats that look like they can be activated every other round, or of the "school powers" one of which -- I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP -- allows an 18th-level mage to cast Wish once a day. :OMG! :shocked: :blink: I'm curious what would have caused such a reaction if there had been open testing for 3.0 and 3.5? :D Probably grapple and polymorph could have been prevented. :D
Endarrion 03-21-08, 08:09 AM	allows an 18th-level mage to cast Wish once a day. :OMG! :shocked: :blink: Yeah, because, you know, 18th level mages never have access to wish anyway.
Zardnaar 03-21-08, 08:48 AM	I'm liking Paizos Rogue and Fighter alot. The rogue may get incorporated into 3.5.
Phobos 03-21-08, 10:39 AM	I'm kinda surprised no one has pointed this out, even if only for posterity. Paizo is not, not going with 4E. I do encourage folks to read their full articles on what they are doing. Paizo is maintaining a 3.5 compatibility for upcoming Pathfinder, but its not staying on 3.5 Pathfinder will be the flagship to support their other many Pathfinder materials. However, they are also releasing 4E products both as their own and in their partnership with Necromancer games, which has a full 4E adventure path on the horizon. In short, even Paizo is not staying with 3.5, they just arn't quite ready to embrace 4e yet either. ;)
Scipion Emilien 03-21-08, 04:56 PM	In short, even Paizo is not staying with 3.5, they just arn't quite ready to embrace 4e yet either. ;) Most of the change I have seen in this document remind me of what WoTC promised us for 4E edition. For me this document is more Paizo take on 4e than a 3.75 version of D&D.
MOTHdevil 03-21-08, 05:31 PM	In short, even Paizo is not staying with 3.5, they just arn't quite ready to embrace 4e yet either. ;) Actually, the impression to me is they're doing BOTH. You want to play D&D 3.5/3.75, you buy Pathfinder and its supplements. You want to play third party 4.0 D&D, you buy the D&D specific stuff. For Paizo, 3.5=Pathfinder 4E= D&D My impression is they're offering players both, which is something WOTC would have been lauded for, but is extremely difficult for them from a marketing and production perspective. About the only way WOTC could have pulled this off would have been to go the "Advanced D&D" route again and have two separate lines. Paizo, OTOH, is in a good position to do both, and I'm impressed with the community-forward method they seem to have suggested in Pathfinder's development. Maybe everyone can be happy this way.
GrimshofHighSorcery 03-21-08, 08:43 PM	I love this, and will support this 100%, and this may sway me from buying 4e as we have just started up two new play groups. So, I think this looks to be a better choice!
Zardnaar 03-21-08, 09:15 PM	I love this, and will support this 100%, and this may sway me from buying 4e as we have just started up two new play groups. So, I think this looks to be a better choice! Spread the word and all that. I'm looking forward to seeing more classes done by Paizo.
Krusk 03-22-08, 01:27 AM	I think it might be an interesting take on dnd, definatly more balanced than 3.5 for most things. I did have one complaint, why exactly were wizards given a power boost? I always considered them the top class, and the general consensus is they are top 5 minimum. I will be keeping an eye on it, and once all the classes are released I might run a game or two using it. Honestly though, the closer 4 comes, or this new 3.75 comes the less and less i like 3.5. I realized when it takes me ~25 pages of houserules to run a campaign smoothly there is a problem. PAthfinder is essentially just another version of what I did to my 3.5 games I run, so hopefully I can at least harvest ideas from it for my own.
Vaelan 03-22-08, 02:39 AM	This product is a response to 4e. 4e makes sweeping changes to the game in order to fix the problems. As such, to maintain its audience, Paizo's Pathfinder RPG will refrain from changing the game in any significant way. So if you want to see some superficial changes that seem to address the game's mechanical problems without actually changing anything, then this is for you. If you want real change, play fourth edition. If you want real change and, upon playing it, find that you dislike fourth edition, do it yourself. You don't have to worry about selling your system so you're free to change whatever you want. I want real change, so Paizo has nothing to offer. They cannot provide a sufficient level of change or they'd alienate the audience they're aiming for. The Fighter and Rogue are decent, but hardly groundbreaking and not enough to do anything more than make people think that they've taken a significant step towards fixing the system. Their changes to feats range from obvious to abominable. Their Combat feats are largely useless (waste a turn doing something bad, waste another turn doing something bad, waste a turn doing something that seems good but is still just bad) and even the most general chains are highly biased towards one fighting style. Their proposed alternative to specialization is less interesting than the options presented in Unearthed Arcana. They'll probably come up with a few decent mechanics I can steal for groups that insist upon playing something resembling 3.5, but I don't see them living up to any higher ambitions than this.
Jaxgaret 03-22-08, 09:27 AM	This product is a response to 4e. 4e makes sweeping changes to the game in order to fix the problems. As such, to maintain its audience, Paizo's Pathfinder RPG will refrain from changing the game in any significant way. So if you want to see some superficial changes that seem to address the game's mechanical problems without actually changing anything, then this is for you. If you want real change, play fourth edition. If you want real change and, upon playing it, find that you dislike fourth edition, do it yourself. You don't have to worry about selling your system so you're free to change whatever you want. I want real change, so Paizo has nothing to offer. They cannot provide a sufficient level of change or they'd alienate the audience they're aiming for. The Fighter and Rogue are decent, but hardly groundbreaking and not enough to do anything more than make people think that they've taken a significant step towards fixing the system. Their changes to feats range from obvious to abominable. Their Combat feats are largely useless (waste a turn doing something bad, waste another turn doing something bad, waste a turn doing something that seems good but is still just bad) and even the most general chains are highly biased towards one fighting style. Their proposed alternative to specialization is less interesting than the options presented in Unearthed Arcana. They'll probably come up with a few decent mechanics I can steal for groups that insist upon playing something resembling 3.5, but I don't see them living up to any higher ambitions than this. I think you're missing one big advantage of running something like Pathfinder: all the rules are in one spot, for everyone to access and use. It's easier for some people to have a sourcebook they can rely on than to try and remember all of the houserules that the gaming group uses.
Vaelan 03-22-08, 04:56 PM	I think you're missing one big advantage of running something like Pathfinder: all the rules are in one spot, for everyone to access and use. They sure aren't all in one spot yet! :P It's easier for some people to have a sourcebook they can rely on than to try and remember all of the houserules that the gaming group uses. If they have trouble remembering their houserules, they should write them down. I know all of my houserules and still took the time to print them out, bind them, and put little sticky tabs in the books referencing them.
pres_man 03-22-08, 05:44 PM	I'm kinda surprised no one has pointed this out, even if only for posterity. Paizo is not, not going with 4E. I do encourage folks to read their full articles on what they are doing. Paizo is maintaining a 3.5 compatibility for upcoming Pathfinder, but its not staying on 3.5 Pathfinder will be the flagship to support their other many Pathfinder materials. However, they are also releasing 4E products both as their own and in their partnership with Necromancer games, which has a full 4E adventure path on the horizon. In short, even Paizo is not staying with 3.5, they just arn't quite ready to embrace 4e yet either. ;) I think this is a good point, Paizo is not sticking with 3.5 after August 2009. Though one of their goals is for the new game system is to be able to use older 3.5 products, it has been stated that in some cases compatibility issues will be set to the side for other goals. In many ways, the Paizo game may end up actually closer to 4e than 3.5, what with changes to increase hp, changes in skills (no more skill points), and some magic available at will.
Jaxgaret 03-22-08, 07:34 PM	They sure aren't all in one spot yet! :P True, but they will be. If they have trouble remembering their houserules, they should write them down. I know all of my houserules and still took the time to print them out, bind them, and put little sticky tabs in the books referencing them. I know the people in my gaming group prefer to have hardcover rulebooks than printouts (although I personally couldn't care less). Others may feel the same.
Airos 03-22-08, 09:10 PM	This product is a response to 4e. 4e makes sweeping changes to the game in order to fix the problems. As such, to maintain its audience, Paizo's Pathfinder RPG will refrain from changing the game in any significant way. So if you want to see some superficial changes that seem to address the game's mechanical problems without actually changing anything, then this is for you. If you want real change, play fourth edition. If you want real change and, upon playing it, find that you dislike fourth edition, do it yourself. You don't have to worry about selling your system so you're free to change whatever you want. I want real change, so Paizo has nothing to offer. They cannot provide a sufficient level of change or they'd alienate the audience they're aiming for. The Fighter and Rogue are decent, but hardly groundbreaking and not enough to do anything more than make people think that they've taken a significant step towards fixing the system. Their changes to feats range from obvious to abominable. Their Combat feats are largely useless (waste a turn doing something bad, waste another turn doing something bad, waste a turn doing something that seems good but is still just bad) and even the most general chains are highly biased towards one fighting style. Their proposed alternative to specialization is less interesting than the options presented in Unearthed Arcana. They'll probably come up with a few decent mechanics I can steal for groups that insist upon playing something resembling 3.5, but I don't see them living up to any higher ambitions than this. 4th edition doesn't "fix" the problems with 3.5, it replaces them. It's buying a new car because you got a flat tire. For some people, the flat tire is just the latest in a long line of problems they've had, so buying a new car is the best move for those people. I'm not one of them. I just want a new tire, not a new car. Pathfinder isn't about "real" change versus "superficial" changes, it's about "minor" changes and "major" changes. People like me don't think 3.5 requires "major" changes, just a few adjustments. I'm very happy with 3.5, and I'm very unhappy with the material I've seen of 4th edition thus far. It's a major change in a direction I don't want to go. Pathfinder may not go the direction I want to go either, but it's a lot closer.
mshea 03-22-08, 10:04 PM	The primary difference between Paizo's system and 4th edition is the drive for backward compatibility. However, in the document itself they admit that things will have to be either tweaked or rewritten to work correctly. That shortens that differentiator. Right now I have three of the Expedition adventures that I'd still like to run. The Paizo system could possibly let me run those adventures without modifying them, but not really. The NPC rogues and fighters won't be like the fighters in the Paizo system so I would have to re-roll them. The rest of the monsters will be likely underpowered so I'd have to change the CR. At that point, why wouldn't I just take the 4th edition monster manual and just change the monsters directly? If Paizo wants to support 3.5, they should just support it, not fork the system. Paizo adventures won't really be backward compatible with 3.5 and 3.5 stuff isn't really compatible with the Paizo system. If I'm going that way, why not just jump to 4th edition and be done with it? I'm guessing Wizards has and will put a lot more into testing 4th than Paizo will be able to with this. I think Paizo is making a smart decision to support a small market that clearly wants to stay with 3.5. I just think the compatibility is only skin deep and under it is a new system as different as True 20 or 4th edition. We'll have to see.
Jaxgaret 03-23-08, 01:32 AM	Right now I have three of the Expedition adventures that I'd still like to run. The Paizo system could possibly let me run those adventures without modifying them, but not really. The NPC rogues and fighters won't be like the fighters in the Paizo system so I would have to re-roll them. The rest of the monsters will be likely underpowered so I'd have to change the CR. At that point, why wouldn't I just take the 4th edition monster manual and just change the monsters directly? You can certainly run adventures exactly as they are and lower the CR a tiny bit, or simply add a monster or three to bring the CR to where you want it to be. You have to do that anyway a lot of the time. If Paizo wants to support 3.5, they should just support it, not fork the system. Paizo adventures won't really be backward compatible with 3.5 and 3.5 stuff isn't really compatible with the Paizo system. If I'm going that way, why not just jump to 4th edition and be done with it? I'm guessing Wizards has and will put a lot more into testing 4th than Paizo will be able to with this. It seems pretty compatible to me. So CRs are a bit different - a lot of 3e CRs are screwed up anyway. I think Paizo is making a smart decision to support a small market that clearly wants to stay with 3.5. I just think the compatibility is only skin deep and under it is a new system as different as True 20 or 4th edition. How "small" that market shall be depends on 4e. If 4e seriously flops, 3e's market won't be that "small". We'll have to see. Indeed.
pres_man 03-23-08, 04:04 AM	It seems pretty compatible to me. So CRs are a bit different - a lot of 3e CRs are screwed up anyway. Well the skills probably will be different (no more skill points), the feats probably will be different, the special combat manuevers will probably be different, the spell casters will probably be different, the classes will probably be different, ... I think it will be a lot more than just the CRs.
Naderion 03-23-08, 06:35 AM	To this moment, I don't really think I'll want to play full Pathfinder. But I'm fairly sure, that it will be my nzmber 1 source for rules adjustments for my game.
Jaxgaret 03-23-08, 01:31 PM	Well the skills probably will be different (no more skill points), The Pathfinder skill system is lifted directly from UA - Alternative Skill System: Max Ranks, Limited Choices (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm#maximumRanks LimitedChoices). It's quite simple to shift back to normal 3.5 skill allocation if so desired. the feats probably will be different, the special combat manuevers will probably be different, the spell casters will probably be different, the classes will probably be different, ... I think it will be a lot more than just the CRs. Yes, but does that really affect anything? You can still calculate CRs using 3.5 monsters and Pathfinder PCs, if you don't want to upgrade your modules and monsters to Pathfinder. 4e is already doing the same thing, with monsters and PCs playing by totally different rules, but it's not directly backwards compatible with 3.5. In other words, 3.5 monsters work perfectly fine in a Pathfinder world.
VagrantWhisper 03-23-08, 03:09 PM	Myself and my group are really excited about Pathfinder actually. We really like where some of the rules seem to be going, and given that most of us have lifelong backgrounds in the software industry we're not taking the whole 'Alpha problems' too seriously, its a design reality we live with everyday - and the open design model that Paizo is presenting just gives us good feelings all over. Frankly, as a whole we've been only been frustrated with the 3.x system in places - but none of us seem to have the vitriolic spite that so many of the 4E supporters seem to have with it. Paizo's take seems to tweak it just enough. We really enjoy the Pathfinder series in general, so this gives us the chance to keep on keeping on with it, without having to worry about changing the game mid-stride. Many of us were involved in Living Arcanis and with their pulling out of d20 completely to invest in their own game system, Paizo's decision to open up a living Pathfinder model means we don't have to pick up an all new system to enjoy some form of sanctioned gaming every once in a while. 4E falls on deaf ears in my crew - and it doesn't even really have to do with the system itself, but moreso just WotC's attitude in the whole thing. In all honesty if it wasn't for Paizo we'd likely find ourselves not playing *D&D* at all in the future, but would more likely move onto another system and wait until 5E came around to check into the system again. So, all in all - count me in as a Paizo Pathfinder supporter.
LordThavian 03-23-08, 11:00 PM	I am very glad to see that Paizo has chosen this route and is giving us a continuation of 3.5 (Dubbed 3.75 by many) and look forward to future developments from them! :smirk: I see alot of potental from this Alpha release and will be incorporating much of it into my homegame, naturally tweaking as the beta and final editions come into being! Paizo has my support in this project fully :clap: Keep it up Paizo!
Vaelan 03-24-08, 12:54 AM	I know the people in my gaming group prefer to have hardcover rulebooks than printouts (although I personally couldn't care less). Others may feel the same. I bound mine... but I don't think most people are going to bother. 4th edition doesn't "fix" the problems with 3.5, it replaces them. Semantics, really. It is all about how broadly one views the situation. I do recognize your point, though. Pathfinder isn't about "real" change versus "superficial" changes, it's about "minor" changes and "major" changes. I disagree. They're trying to sell to people who don't like the fact that 4e is making such sweeping changes. Seeing how pissy and detail-oriented people are on the subject, I don't see how they would be able to change much without alienating those same people. The fact that they didn't address the magic system in their first release seems to be a pretty good indicator of how conservative their changes will be.
Airos 03-24-08, 04:56 AM	I disagree. They're trying to sell to people who don't like the fact that 4e is making such sweeping changes. Seeing how pissy and detail-oriented people are on the subject, I don't see how they would be able to change much without alienating those same people. The fact that they didn't address the magic system in their first release seems to be a pretty good indicator of how conservative their changes will be. That's why I called Pathfinder minor changes. You're right about the fact that if it remains "3.5", then there's not a whole lot than can be truly "changed". In my opinion Pathfinder is a change to the system, while 4th edition is a change of systems. Both types of changes are "real", (as far as the fact goes that they're not "fake" changes; they do really exist), although as you've pointed out 4th edition makes huge, sweeping changes to nearly every aspect of the game for the sake of simplicity and balance. Pathfinder makes small tweaks and adjustments to what they view as the largest problems. I believe, at least at this point in time, that Pathfinder will eventually get around to the spell system. It's one of the biggest problems with class balance in 3.5, and it's too big a problem to ignore. By the same token, it's far too big an undertaking to have "fixed" this early in development. Since this is only a alpha release, hopefully we'll see some work on spells when the beta is released, (although I'm not pleased with the idea of having to pay for the beta). You did hit the nail on the head before, though. If you want major changes to the entire system, then Pathfinder isn't the right product for you. This is a product aimed at those of us that want continued support for 3.5 without a horrible headache trying to change 4th edition material to 3.5. While it may not be a perfect fit, I think it'll be a lot easier getting Pathfinder and 3.5 to play nice together than getting 4th edition and 3.5 to play together at all.