Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BevisIscariot 10-24-06, 10:53 PM	Just curious -- is there anyone out there who actually plays 3d6-take-what-you-get for ability scores?
MogliGrimTooth 10-24-06, 10:56 PM	Never.... been playing since i was nine... can safely say i have never used less than 4d6....
Dhavaer 10-24-06, 10:56 PM	Yes. I don't, though.
Bob_The_Wizard 10-24-06, 11:03 PM	Yup. I don't like it, find it gives less powerful characters, but I have seen it before. The DM, unfortunetely, made us decide classes before rolling for scores. I was a sorcerer, and ended up with 9 in Charisma...
Salla 10-24-06, 11:04 PM	I use point buy exclusively. :)
Draco Strang 10-24-06, 11:08 PM	Back in 2nd ed., that's pretty much exclusively what we did. Sometimes we whined until our DMs would let us roll 3 sets of 3d6, picking the best set and arranging them as we saw fit.
Can of the Cave Beer 10-24-06, 11:22 PM	*ugh* Not with the way that I roll dice. *shudder*
Ashok_Lal 10-25-06, 12:02 AM	Yes, but were allowed to re-roll 1's
Krusk 10-25-06, 12:03 AM	I do if the other players are willing to as well. I find it fun to be constantly |_| far from death on any encounter. too bad 99% of the people i ever play with dont agree.
ornitholestes 10-25-06, 12:17 AM	Sure, I'll admit I generally use 4D6 (drop the lowest), but I have played 3D6 many times and often played them were they landed. Like Krusk said, I really love to play brutal death is a constant threat games. Many players (and DMs) have the philosophy that a character should only die if they make a big mistake or have really really bad luck. While I do agree a character should live or die by his own choices, I sometimes prefer death to be the default choice. For me it is just makes my accomplishments all the more satisfying. Not that there is anything wrong with the other method (and not to say that campaign with higher-powered characters is necesarily easy - I am working on a real meat grinder, the PCs just happen to be gestalt characters built on a 18,17,16,15,13,10 array). Its just all a matter of play style and personal preference.
BevisIscariot 10-25-06, 12:48 AM	Thanks for all the feedback. I'm tossing around some different ideas for the next campaign. I usually offer the players their pick between 4d6 drop the lowest and 28 pt. buy, but I'm not sure if I want to stick with that. Anyway, thanks again.
Lord Gwydion 10-25-06, 02:41 AM	I ran a classic D&D one-shot last summer, using the Rules Cyclopedia. By player request, we rolled 3d6 down the line, then decided what classes they wanted to play. Since it was a hack and slash one-shot, and classic D&D rules, no one really minded. None of them died until the final climactic encounter with Bargle, but if one had, it would have been easy to roll up a replacement character. Using 3.5 rules, though, it can take a bit longer because it's so gamist centered. There are so many rules and options to choose that character creation, while fun, can take a long time. (Yes, narrativist players often take a long time to create their characters no matter what game/system they're using, but if they're using 3.5 instead of B/E/C/M or Rules Cyclopedia D&D, then there's that extra mechanics oriented time on top of the character fleshing out time.)
Archangel62 10-25-06, 02:43 AM	I used 3d6 for quite some time, especially back in 2nd edition. Then again I also did a lot of Rifts and they do a similar rule for character generation.
Arvagor 10-25-06, 09:23 AM	Yep, we used 3d6 all the way back in 1e. The best of my PCs started out with what amounted to the elite arry (for stat buy)...
thanatos_lich 10-25-06, 10:19 AM	i personaly roll a d12 and a d6 to save time since i cant be bothered looking for three d6's or rolling 1 d6 three times.
mearrin69 10-25-06, 10:40 AM	We played straight 3D6 back in the old days (I mean basic set and 1e in the early 80s) but 4D6 drop one is my pref these days - I also prefer to arrange to suit. One DM I was thinking of joining for a game used dice numbered from 13 to 18. Roll seven dice and drop one. Wow, some crazy scores that way. I tried it out and rolled three 18's, a 17, a 16, and a 13. Rarely get a bonus on the 'dump stat' with 3D6 ;) M @thanatos lich: heh, that quite possibly messes up the curve ;)
Stev Beren 10-25-06, 10:46 AM	I've tried, when I do roll, rolling 6 + d12. Averages a 12.5 for abilities.
Tyveil 10-25-06, 10:53 AM	I can't believe people still roll dice for ability scores.. how archaic. :detect: :looloo:
rogar2465 10-25-06, 12:24 PM	:mad: Heck No, I've allways rolled 4d6 Reroll 1s, and if you get less than 5 bonus points try again. Of course, my monsters get max HP for there first HD, and I've been known to change feats to something more sensible than as writen also. Rogar Foehammer, The Giant slayin, Undead turnin, Saver of the world!:D
Millennium 10-25-06, 12:31 PM	Just curious -- is there anyone out there who actually plays 3d6-take-what-you-get for ability scores? That hasn't been the standard method of character generation since 2e, and even then a lot of people ignored it and went their own way.
Imban 10-25-06, 12:40 PM	Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of point buy... but 25 point buy is not enough. Seriously, look at D&D stats for the iconic characters of any fantasy novel you can think of. The worst of them I've found are the 3e Raistlin and Tasslehoff, who both are, at lowest, 28 point buy. This is the same Raistlin who's known for coughing up blood and being an utter weakling and an example of a character with a gigantic statistical flaw. If I recall correctly from the time I looked them up, Tanis Half-Elven is in the high 30s. Drizzt is in the mid 40s. By and large every iconic character ever has so many stat points that I consider 25 "gruntish", 30 "low-powered", 40 "heroic", 50 "high-powered", and 60 as "top-tier". I determined this for NPCs by removing all of the things giving them a bonus or penalty to their ability scores such as items, race, etc., then finding out their original, pre-leveling ability scores by removing 1 point from their highest ability score for each 4 levels they have. This arrives at the lowest possible point buy, because higher starting stats cost more per point. (Yes, NPCs exist that have more than 61 stat points, even by this method. 60 stat points is enough for 16/16/16/16/16/16 or 18/18/18/12/12/12 though, so yeah.)
SeattleLightning 10-25-06, 12:43 PM	I'm running a campaign where magic items cannot be purchased. They can only be found or constructed. I currently let the players use the 4d6 drop one, change the suit... and I let them reroll as many times as they want. Some of them end up with some pretty crazy stats but it seems to be a pretty fair balance since the rest of the game seems to be designed around people being able to buy whatever magic they want like there is some Eldritch Wal-Mart out there that regularly stocks everything. How does the point buy system work? Are there different variations? Is any of it Canon v3.5? I seem to remember a point buy in 1e in Unearthed Arcana... maybe something in 2e PHB...
SunTzuWarmaster 10-25-06, 01:08 PM	I enjoyed a game where the "buy" was: everyone gets an 18, roll 3d6*5 to generate the rest. Fit to suit, apply racial mods, pick class.
Imban 10-25-06, 01:35 PM	I'm running a campaign where magic items cannot be purchased. They can only be found or constructed. I currently let the players use the 4d6 drop one, change the suit... and I let them reroll as many times as they want. Some of them end up with some pretty crazy stats but it seems to be a pretty fair balance since the rest of the game seems to be designed around people being able to buy whatever magic they want like there is some Eldritch Wal-Mart out there that regularly stocks everything. How does the point buy system work? Are there different variations? Is any of it Canon v3.5? I seem to remember a point buy in 1e in Unearthed Arcana... maybe something in 2e PHB... It's in the DMG 3.5, page 169. Officially, point buy is 25 points, you start off with 8s in all stats, and it's a sliding scale - 1 point/attribute for 9-14, 2 points/attribute for 15-16, and 3 points/attribute for 17-18. You can't decrease stats below 8 - or rather, you can, but you get zero points back for it. They include four variations - a "low-powered", 15 point campaign (everyone has stats of 11/11/11/10/10/10), a "challenging", 22 point campaign, a "tougher", 28 point campaign, and a "high-powered", 32 point campaign. Given what I said about iconic characters, I don't really feel that the standard is nearly enough, or that high-powered is actually high-powered at all. Neverwinter Nights, which (by virtue of its quasi-MMO nature) tends to model the players as normal people (as adventurers go) more than as The Heroes, accords them 30 points. This is why 30 is basically my baseline for a low-powered campaign.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-25-06, 02:41 PM	We used to do 4d6 drop, reroll 1s. But I'm enjoying 40 point buy.
CryoSilver 10-25-06, 02:52 PM	When I DM, it's point buy. When I play tabletop, I like rolling 4d6 drop, reroll the lowest score once.
Grand Theft Otto 10-25-06, 02:53 PM	I can't believe people still roll dice for ability scores.. how archaic. :detect: :looloo: What really boggles my mind is how they will do that, and whine about balance at the same time.
Grand Theft Otto 10-25-06, 02:55 PM	Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of point buy... but 25 point buy is not enough. Seriously, look at D&D stats for the iconic characters of any fantasy novel you can think of. The worst of them I've found are the 3e Raistlin and Tasslehoff, who both are, at lowest, 28 point buy. This is the same Raistlin who's known for coughing up blood and being an utter weakling and an example of a character with a gigantic statistical flaw. Actually the tea propped him up. Its a fluff way to explain his 9 con (or whatever it was). I was surprised he didnt have a HP penalty when we played those god awful adventures myself.
sumowrestler 10-25-06, 02:56 PM	In my adventure that is coming up on Oct 28th, I actually made them do 3d6 and 4d6-lowest and then averaged them. They had the choosing of where the stats go. To me, that is the best way to immulate the 25 point buy system if you don't know it which is my case. However, if the players knew the point buy system well enough, they could use it. My easiest way to determine if my mixing of dice rolls was close was to simply see if the stats added up to 72 which is about what you get for a 25 point buy system. If the averages didn't add up to 72, I let them tack on points until they did. If it was over, than they had to drop them. I do have characters with a 18 and as low as 6. I was even nice enough to let them get points from dropping a score below 8 unless it was a racial adjustment. Before this idea, I went strictly by 4d6-lowest.
Michael_Morris 10-25-06, 03:01 PM	Every DM I've ever met using this approach was an untalented bully, so these days I simply decline to play if the method is 3d6.
Uldrais 10-25-06, 03:22 PM	I used to use 3d6 in 2nd edition. It was viable back then because for the most part there wasn't much of an appreciable difference for ability scores between an 8 and 16 (for those not familiar with 2nd edition, to give you an idea, a non-fighter with 18 str had a bonus of +1 to hit, +2 to damage, and if I recall correctly it took at least a 16 to get any bonus at all). Additionally there weren't a slew of important feats and abilities with score pre-requisites. Bottom line, a character with high ability scores wasn't a whole lot more powerful than a similarly leveled character with much lower ability scores. However, I think you'd be crazy to use it in 3rd edition. Ability scores make such a huge difference in the power level of characters, because they have a much larger range of bonuses and they affect more things (like saving throws). On top of that, if you used 3d6, and you had a certain character idea in mind as a player, chances are you'd be incapable of achieving it due to all of the ability score pre-requisites. It would be fun to see how long a 3d6 party could even survive in a campaign of an average challenge level.
maskimus 10-25-06, 04:05 PM	Points Buy? Phehh!! I been playin' D & D for pert near 30 years and no one I sling dice with ever wanted to use points buy. It sounds like a commie plot to me! Roll the gol durn dice the way the gods intended! 4d6, keep best 3, arrange as desired. If the 6 numbers don't add up to at least 72, you can roll again or add points to yer stats til they do. Just put the additional points where ya want 'em. Ya just cain't make anything higher than 18 before racial adjustments, if any. I've actually had some folks hopin' for lower scores to start!!:smirk:
dizfactor 10-25-06, 04:23 PM	I've got a pretty generous system of rolling attributes I use with all my D20 games: 1. Roll 4D6, drop the lowest. Do this 8 times, dropping the lowest two. 2. Look at the set of scores you have. If you like them, keep them and arrange as you see fit. If not, irrevocably drop the whole set and continue w/step 3 3. Roll 4D6, drop the lowest. Do this 7 times, dropping the lowest one. 4. Look at the set of scores you have. If you like them, keep them and arrange as you see fit. If not, irrevocably drop the whole set and continue w/step 5 5. Roll 4D6, drop the lowest. Do this 6 times, and you keep them, no matter what. I like the psychology of the whole thing.
Man in the Funny Hat 10-25-06, 08:40 PM	Thanks for all the feedback. I'm tossing around some different ideas for the next campaign. I usually offer the players their pick between 4d6 drop the lowest and 28 pt. buy, but I'm not sure if I want to stick with that. Anyway, thanks again. http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/stat_generation.htm Now you have more to think about. Carry on. :)
GeneralHenry 10-25-06, 11:37 PM	back in 2nd edition I once had a campaign with more players wanting to play then was practical so I had them all roll 3d6 in order and this as back when there were minimum stat requirements. So most the party was rouges and fighters (easy requirements), the only spell caster was a bard. And once you died you were dead. It turned out fairly well.
Karak_Nechot 10-26-06, 02:30 AM	I had this player once... He would roll the worst ability scores in the world... Every. Single. Time. I remember giving him 5d6, reroll 1's, and he rolled nothing higher than an 11. That was a good day for him, too. I don't play with him any more, as he's kind of quit gaming, but because of his constant example and several other specific examples, I use nothing but 28+ point buy for D&D. As stated above, 25 point buy does not seem to cut it, and, technically, 4d6 averages out to be approximately 29 point buy, if I remember correctly.
Solaris 10-26-06, 02:55 AM	4d6 averages out to be approximately 29 point buy, if I remember correctly.29.13something, so close enough ;)
Stev Beren 10-26-06, 07:40 AM	I had this player once... He would roll the worst ability scores in the world... Every. Single. Time. I remember giving him 5d6, reroll 1's, and he rolled nothing higher than an 11. That was a good day for him, too. I don't play with him any more, as he's kind of quit gaming, but because of his constant example and several other specific examples, I use nothing but 28+ point buy for D&D. As stated above, 25 point buy does not seem to cut it, and, technically, 4d6 averages out to be approximately 29 point buy, if I remember correctly. 25 point buy cuts it if you, the DM, make it 'cut it'. The only reason it WOULDN'T cut it is if you, the DM, makes the encounters such that it does not. Personally, I like the 25 point buy where its not "Yawn, another 16, 17 or 18 ability score. HOw droll. Seen it. Been there, done that, got the t - shirt."
Millennium 10-26-06, 09:51 AM	3d6 is equivalent to a 15-point buy: the "low-powered" setting. Common wisdom places 4d6-drop-lowest as equivalent to a 25-point buy, but if you run the statistics it's actually closer to a 28-point buy. For comparison, the high-powered Dark Sun campaign setting from the 2e days generated characters with a roll of 5d4-lowest-becomes-4. This sounds powerful, but it actually turns out to be a 29-point buy: despite being a 5-20 scale rather than a 3-18 scale, the rolls stick so close to the average that over time it's only slightly stronger than 4d6-drop-lowest. Some people instead used 6d4-drop-lowest, but this actually turns out to be quite weak: only 19 points. The statistics of character generation methods are quite interesting.
spoogemonkey 10-27-06, 12:19 PM	I am running an old school hack and slash campaign right now and I used a "take what you get" stat roll convention. However, due to the need for power characters..... I did a 8+d10 roll. That's right - they rolled their stats in order..... one die only. Their stats were rolled BEFORE characters were created. It forced them to make characters out of their comfort zone - they couldn't pre-plan characters. But, the trade-off was that they got better than usual stats. It worked in this campaign, but I wouldn't use it in most campaigns.
natural_selection 10-27-06, 12:55 PM	Points Buy? Phehh!! I been playin' D & D for pert near 30 years and no one I sling dice with ever wanted to use points buy. 30 years of playing dnd and you havent got wiser. I am sorry for you.
Onikani 10-27-06, 01:02 PM	Back in 2nd ed and the rules cyclopedia days 3d6 was the standard way to go. 4d6 drop the lowest became a popular varient and was house ruled in so many places that they made it the standard in 3.0. However, back in the day, we did 8x 3d6. arrange how you wanted, and drop the worst 2 stats.
Harkle 10-27-06, 01:06 PM	Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of point buy... but 25 point buy is not enough. Seriously, look at D&D stats for the iconic characters of any fantasy novel you can think of. The worst of them I've found are the 3e Raistlin and Tasslehoff, who both are, at lowest, 28 point buy. This is the same Raistlin who's known for coughing up blood and being an utter weakling and an example of a character with a gigantic statistical flaw. If I recall correctly from the time I looked them up, Tanis Half-Elven is in the high 30s. Drizzt is in the mid 40s. By and large every iconic character ever has so many stat points that I consider 25 "gruntish", 30 "low-powered", 40 "heroic", 50 "high-powered", and 60 as "top-tier". I determined this for NPCs by removing all of the things giving them a bonus or penalty to their ability scores such as items, race, etc., then finding out their original, pre-leveling ability scores by removing 1 point from their highest ability score for each 4 levels they have. This arrives at the lowest possible point buy, because higher starting stats cost more per point. (Yes, NPCs exist that have more than 61 stat points, even by this method. 60 stat points is enough for 16/16/16/16/16/16 or 18/18/18/12/12/12 though, so yeah.) I think Elminster has pretty average stats, when you take awe his levels, and age bonuses, and chosen bonus, and Int increases due to wishes. I think I worked it out such that at level 1 Elminsters only execptional ability score was like a 17 in dex.
Bruunwald 10-27-06, 01:13 PM	Back in 2nd ed., that's pretty much exclusively what we did. Sometimes we whined until our DMs would let us roll 3 sets of 3d6, picking the best set and arranging them as we saw fit. That's pretty much how we did it for about 19 years. Since then we've mostly used 4d6 drop the lowest. Best balance I've found was achieved by most of my players with starting all stats at 10, adjusting for race, then applying 18 points as they saw fit. I say "most" because whereas 3 out of 4 could be trusted to make solid, even characters, number 4 dumped most into two stats and the rest into one, basically against my advice. Oh well. Good thing I put a cap on it.
Templetroll 10-27-06, 01:23 PM	Just curious -- is there anyone out there who actually plays 3d6-take-what-you-get for ability scores? An early campaign I was in back in the 80s had 3d6, rolled in order. Now, the world was so tough, especially with that rolling method, that we routinely rolled two or three new characters at a time and took them all out in a group. The first adventure was purely about survival in his world. After that first adventure a party was typically smaller due to deaths, but had a level or two added for the survivors. It was fun, but you get really weird characters sometimes.
Harkle 10-27-06, 01:26 PM	I think Elminster has pretty average stats, when you take awe his levels, and age bonuses, and chosen bonus, and Int increases due to wishes. I think I worked it out such that at level 1 Elminsters only execptional ability score was like a 17 in dex. Actually I just grabbed my FRCS, and ran the numbers, turns out Elminster is 32 pont buy, at level 1 he was STR 13, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 13, WIS 14, CHA 14 So for eveyone who thinks they need uber stats at level one be good have a look at Elminster he was just simple 32 point buy and looked nothing like a wizard at level 1. Back on topic, I played 3d6 once, ever since I've always played 4d6 except my Dark sun Campaign where I used 4d4+4
Imban 10-27-06, 01:35 PM	Nope, his level-1 stats in FRCS are 13/17/14/17/17/17. He starts with 13/18/24/24/18/17. Looking at his items, none of them improve his ability scores. Looking at his special abilities, he's Wished for more Intelligence four times, and is a Chosen of Mystra with +10 Constitution. So that brings his "real" scores down to 13/18/14/20/18/17. Now, we need to calculate the benefit of his levels to his stats. He has 35 character levels, so ordinarily we'd lower his highest statistic by 1 eight times, but the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting was published before the Epic Level Handbook, and uses the pre-ELH "epic" rules, which allow you to take +1 to an ability score as your entire benefit for gaining a level, but otherwise halt your ability score advancement. Since Elminster's epic level benefits are all tied up in +1 Class Levels and +1 Bonus Spell Levels, he really only has 5 ability score advancements - the five for his first twenty levels. So we reduce his Intelligence, Intelligence, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Dexterity, leaving us with 13/17/14/17/17/17, or a point buy of 63 points. EDIT: And now I remember that age bonuses exist. I usually try to forget them. If you assume Elminster has the full age bonuses with none of the penalties, his real scores are 13/18/14/17/15/14, which when lowered by 5 points yields Dexterity, Dexterity, Intelligence, Intelligence, Dexterity for 13/15/14/15/15/14, or 41 points. EDIT 2: By the way, Harkle, 13/14/14/13/14/14 is 34 points. :)
Harkle 10-27-06, 02:30 PM	nevermind
Pandaemoni 10-27-06, 03:55 PM	I have used it, though mostly back in first and second editions. (I've only played "3d6, arranged to taste", never "3d6 in order".) It can be fun, but the DM has to bear in mind that it makes levels 1-6 a real challenge for his players, and (imo) find ways to compensate them for that. Levels 7 and up, I've found that the mechanical class abilities, spells and magic items pretty much completely trump ability scores. The problem is that in most groups at least one or more players will object to it, because they don't want the game to be quite that hard. In the end you chave to play the game that both you and your players enjoy, and some just can't get past their dislike of playing in "hard mode." What it adds to the game, though (along with low point buy games) are that monsters like ettins are invariably monsterously strong, not just "meh, buff me so I can go rassle 'im" strong. It's a different feel to the game, but the feeling of fragility is not as objectively bad as some make it our to be. When a party of superheroes fends off a band of raiding trolls, the local NPCs are more likely to grumble "About danged time!" when the job is finally done. When a group of average joes does the same thing, the local farmers see heroes who are more like themselves than demigods. That should be far more remarkable to them. Both games have their good points and bad points. It's very much like the debate over whether to start people off at 1st level or skip ahead to something higher. Playing in a game that starts out low powered has a different feel, and stacking low stats on top of that accentuates the feeling. (I suppose I do not see why anyone would ever play a "3d6, but start at 6th-level" game.)
Solaris 10-27-06, 04:08 PM	30 years of playing dnd and you havent got wiser. I am sorry for you. Note for all: "being wise" is "liking what natural_selection likes".
mearrin69 10-27-06, 04:09 PM	30 years of playing dnd and you havent got wiser. I am sorry for you. Three months on the boards and you are already rude. I am sorry for us.
Man in the Funny Hat 10-27-06, 11:02 PM	30 years of playing dnd and you havent got wiser. I am sorry for you.Clearly you need to read a few more debates between those who prefer point buy and those who prefer to roll. It isn't a matter of either being inherently superior. Point buy has advantages - but it also has disadvantages. So does rolling. Mere desire to maintain the tradition would be good enough for me even if I DID prefer point buy (which I don't, and I've been playing for 30 years too.)
Raziel_Brokodar 10-27-06, 11:32 PM	Just curious -- is there anyone out there who actually plays 3d6-take-what-you-get for ability scores? Never! I used to be a 4d6 arrange how you please kind of guy, but now I'm 32 point buy. ;)
Dheran 10-28-06, 07:33 PM	Straight 3d6 died with AD&D. However, here's a system I've enjoyed in the past: Roll 3d6 36 times. Place the resulting scores in the order rolled in a 6x6 array. Pick one row, column, or diagonal. Assign those numbers to the abilities as desired. This combines chance and choice in an interesting fashion. With 3d6 your average rolls aren't going to be high, but with 14 ways of choosing you may well find a set of scores that appeals to you.
dalamb 10-31-06, 07:13 PM	This article (http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.games.frp.dnd/msg/c212276815ba062b?hl=en&) from USENET group rec.games.frp.dnd argues that you need 32 point buy to match 4d6 drop 1, since people drop many of the sets of ability scores that arise.
Nom 11-01-06, 10:25 PM	This article (http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.games.frp.dnd/msg/c212276815ba062b?hl=en&) from USENET group rec.games.frp.dnd argues that you need 32 point buy to match 4d6 drop 1, since people drop many of the sets of ability scores that arise.Well, he uses a "below 8 = 0 pts" rule, while most people continue the scale linearly into the negatives. Not necessarily wrong, but does bias the values upwards. However, the argument that most people don't actually roll fairly and thus PB equivalent should be increased is silly. Especially since one of the benefits of 25 PB is that it is the value the game is calibrated around, rather than the set of abilities you rolled on your 3rd attempt. I suppose "If I let you cheat you'd do this, so let's just approximate it as this instead" makes sense in some ways, but puts the cart before the horse IMO.
babysamurai 11-02-06, 08:12 AM	Back in the day we used the old 4d6 drop the lowest one. But now, after foolishly letting my players roll 5d6 drop the lowest two (I know, I know) for my current campaign, and one guy got a 67 point buy equivalent, I’m completely sold on Point Buy and will never go back to "rolling" for ability scores. That goes for hit point too. "Gee Hal, you’ve rolled a 2 for your paladins hit points for the last 3 levels – bummer." …Lame Hopefully when 4th edition inevitably arrives, rolling for ability scores and hit points will go the way of the Dodo.
Archangel62 11-02-06, 11:00 AM	To each their own, I like dice a bit more than point buy but that's just how I play. PB works well for some, I understand why they have it for the RPGA and things like that. Main reason I don't like PB is that it can render some classes completely unplayable, or at the very least can weaken them rather heavily.
BlackDragonStew 11-02-06, 12:27 PM	While reading this thread, and parts of the link from Man_in_the_Funny_Hat.... I had an idea!!!:lightbulb I just grabbed some dice, and tried it out. It seams to work really well. Take 4d6; re-roll anything under 4. (yes, I said 4):eek: When all dice are showing a 4 or better- take out the highest die. It gives you anywhere between 12-18. 17, and 18 is still a difficult stat to get since you have to take out your highest number. What do you guys think?
Solaris 11-02-06, 01:09 PM	I think you should stop kidding yourself and just assign scores.
SeattleLightning 11-02-06, 01:26 PM	I am running an old school hack and slash campaign right now and I used a "take what you get" stat roll convention. However, due to the need for power characters..... I did a 8+d10 roll. That's right - they rolled their stats in order..... one die only. Their stats were rolled BEFORE characters were created. It forced them to make characters out of their comfort zone - they couldn't pre-plan characters. But, the trade-off was that they got better than usual stats. It worked in this campaign, but I wouldn't use it in most campaigns. Interesting... if the whole party ended up with stats only suitable for wizards (or all of any one class except fighter for that matter) would you have made the party stand as it is?
Nadaka 11-02-06, 01:32 PM	yes I have. But every serious game I run is point buy. Why? Because my brother never rolls a character with less than 3 18's. I can make him roll in front of me, with my dice, and he can't touch them till I have counted the numbers, and he still rolls at least 3 18s out of 6 ability scores. EVERY FREAKIN' TIME!
epifreak 11-02-06, 01:39 PM	I'm eventually starting up a Ravenloft Masque of the Red Death campaign, and I'll probably use either 3d6 or a low point buy. It should really keep my one optimizer in check, as given decent stats, he borders on game breaking at any opportunity. Besides that, it's bloody Ravenloft, come on.
Solaris 11-02-06, 01:44 PM	yes I have. But every serious game I run is point buy. Why? Because my brother never rolls a character with less than 3 18's. I can make him roll in front of me, with my dice, and he can't touch them till I have counted the numbers, and he still rolls at least 3 18s out of 6 ability scores. EVERY FREAKIN' TIME! Then he's cheating, because the odds of that happening once with fair rolls of the best 3 of 4d6 are 1 in 12191. The odds against doing it even five out of ten times are astronomical. Make him shake the dice well in a cup and dump them out without looking. Then watch him get reasonable scores.
Rilgar Esedarius 11-02-06, 07:20 PM	That's what I've always done. Well, except I reroll 1s and 2s. It just worked that way.When I play with my Bro's group, we roll 4d6 and drop the lowest.
Solaris 11-02-06, 07:39 PM	How about this: Roll 3d6 once per ability, in order, re-rolling every time you roll a 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5. Variation: As above, but you can lower any stats you like as long as they don't go below 3.
dalamb 11-04-06, 10:47 PM	However, the argument that most people don't actually roll fairly and thus PB equivalent should be increased is silly.I debated with myself about how much context to mention with this message, and obviously I erred. The "dropped" he's referring to at the top is the 10% of "6*(4d6 drop1)" characters that are dropped according to the rules. It has nothing to do with the cheating he mentions at the end. The context included results from a dice-rolling program and this message (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.games.frp.dnd/msg/c212276815ba062b%3Fhl%3Den%26), which comments on the results of the program. So, 4d6 drop 1 is about equivalent to 32 point buy, as the original message I quoted says. You're right that treating below-8 as costing 0 may change things somewhat; I don't know how much, but my prejudice is "not much".
Nadaka 11-05-06, 01:08 AM	Then he's cheating, because the odds of that happening once with fair rolls of the best 3 of 4d6 are 1 in 12191. The odds against doing it even five out of ten times are astronomical. Make him shake the dice well in a cup and dump them out without looking. Then watch him get reasonable scores. No, I dont think he is cheating. I watched him roll very carefully, its not a matter of simply dropping the dice. They roll and bounce as they are supposed to. And yes, I tried the cup once, he got 5 18s that time. I realize that the odds are astronomical. I am in computer science, I have had classes on statistics and probability. It should be noted that given a sufficient sample space from a set of independent events, a truely random sequence will show "streaks" and seemingly non-random groupings. If it did not, one could not say the events are independant as some arbitrary effect is preventing the random occurance of those streaks. Consider the millions of people rolling dice. Statistically, some few of them are going to have "good luck" and my brother is one of them (only for dice).
Solaris 11-05-06, 01:20 AM	Consider the millions of people rolling dice. Statistically, some few of them are going to have "good luck" and my brother is one of them (only for dice). I still call shenanigans. He is not rolling correctly, with the cup or without. Either that, or the dice are bogus. With fair dice, in a controlled situation where he can't see the dice and they are sufficiently shaken, he will not be rolling this way. Of course there's another possibility: he's affecting the outcome with psychokinesis.
justdmjeff 11-05-06, 08:13 AM	I've been reading the debates on roll vs. point buy on these boards for a couple months now and even put my two cents in now and again. I have been arguing very strongly against the point buy system. But I must admit some of you have changed my mind. I now believe that the point but system should be used in these two cases, both for reasons of balance. One--the game is based on and balanced for a 25 point buy. Two--it keeps the characters in a party fairly balanced with each other. However I still believe that a point buy system creates cookie-cutter characters. That one weird roll you get with every character creation can make a character memorable.
Critical_Failure 11-05-06, 09:31 AM	Just curious -- is there anyone out there who actually plays 3d6-take-what-you-get for ability scores? nah i use 4d6 due to horrendusly bad luck i (legaly) rerolld my most recent characters stats 7 times i ended up with no negatives though.... ..... and miseed 12 times on a two in the first 5 encounters
Coridan 11-05-06, 12:14 PM	I used to use 4d6 seven times, drop the lowest. But due to the last couple games of having one or two players with total mods of 11-13 and others with only about 5 or 6 I've switched to 25 point buy. Some of my players like it, others don't. Personally, my games are more story driven than combat driven, having to constantly replace dead characters is a nuisance as the characters are usually all together for a reason of sorts. Occasionally I've had them do 3d6 and put them in order just to see what they get, but it's usually abysmal, espescially if we're using an online die roller.
Nadaka 11-05-06, 01:01 PM	I still call shenanigans. He is not rolling correctly, with the cup or without. Either that, or the dice are bogus. With fair dice, in a controlled situation where he can't see the dice and they are sufficiently shaken, he will not be rolling this way. Of course there's another possibility: he's affecting the outcome with psychokinesis. will not? no, its possible but statistically improbable. As I said earlier, I figured something was up, so I made him roll in front of me, then I made him use my dice, then I made him use the cup, then I said "screw it" use point buy. Considering the dozen or so characters I've seen him roll like this, yes my brother has an improbable streak of "luck". HAHA, my brother actually believes he "wills" the dice to roll like that.
Solaris 11-05-06, 02:59 PM	will not? no, its possible but statistically improbable. Some things are possible, but so improbable that you can basically assume they won't happen. Suppose your brother were to roll 10 characters, and get at least half of them as you described. He could roll 10 characters every second of every day of every year for 33 billion years and we'd expect it to happen only once in that time. The age of the universe is currently thought to be around 13 billion years. If he rolled at least half of ten characters with at least three 18s each, then I could say with approximately 99.9999999999999999% confidence that it wasn't random chance. There's not much in life that's anywhere near that certain. And that's only for half of ten. You said he does it all the time; that's even worse.
Nadaka 11-05-06, 04:47 PM	I am aware of the probability. It doesn't matter. He has to roll in front of me every time, no exceptions. So he can't just pick his scores. Lets assume he is cheating with weighted dice (he wasn't, anyone else using the same dice got average characters), after ~3 times he must roll my dice instead. Lets assume he is cheating and rolling the dice incorrectly (he wasn't, I know how to cheat with dice, I watched very carefully, and he didn't use any of those methods), after ~3 times he had to use the cup. Still after he did that a couple times and still got the 18s, i went with point buy. You can argue statistics with me all you want, I've been through cal3, statistics, algorithms, discrete math, etc. I realize that using the rolling method we had about a 15/100000 chance of rolling 3 or more 18s and that doing that 10 or 12 times in a row? the odds against it are astronomical.
Solaris 11-05-06, 04:53 PM	You can argue statistics with me all you want, I've been through cal3, statistics, algorithms, discrete math, etc. I realize that using the rolling method we had about a 15/100000 chance of rolling 3 or more 18s and that doing that 10 or 12 times in a row? the odds against it are astronomical. Yet you remain credulous that he's doing it by chance, when it's far more likely that he's manipulating the outcomes somehow. Well, I've tried. I give up.
Nadaka 11-05-06, 05:02 PM	Yes. thats right. Even if I assume that he started out "cheating" (by selecting "naturally" weighted dice), it still doesn't invalidate the later results. I see no way for him to affect his dice rolls while rolling from a cup, with random dice from my stash, when he can't touch them till I have inspected them. Unless you have an idea how he can do that, without accepting that magic is real (and that my brother can use it, but only for making D&D characters), It has to be chance.
Solaris 11-05-06, 05:12 PM	[mis-post]
Solaris 11-05-06, 05:13 PM	Unless you have an idea how he can do that, without accepting that magic is real (and that my brother can use it, but only for making D&D characters), It has to be chance. I don't have to know how he did it in order to assume that it's overwhelmingly likely that he did. It's like stage magic -- I might not know what the trick was, but I can assume there was one. The odds of rolling twelve characters in a row which have at least three 18s is: 1 in 1077793150632681882064310468711736041856 7523582347 In light of that, and provided one actually does understand that, it makes much more sense for one to assume the outcomes are not random than to assume that they are. The odds against it aren't merely astronomical; there are no astronomical terms big enough to describe it. It's far more probable that he is affecting the outcomes, and that you, not being a perfect detector of such things, and not having conducted the experiment in sufficiently controlled circumstances, just missed it. It's foolish to assume the overwhelmingly more improbable of two possibilities. So, not having any reason to believe in psychic phenomena, and accepting your claim that your dice are fair, I must conclude that he's cheating more subtly than your ability to detect it. It's completely unreasonable to do otherwise here.
Nadaka 11-05-06, 06:26 PM	Im choosing the improbable over the impossible. Even if you were to assume that he was cheating to start with, and that he managed to trick me with deft maneuvers in the middle cases (unlikely considering he doesn't even have the hand-eye coordination of blind man with parkinsons) , those last few rolls had specific conditions that would prohibit him from cheating (if you ignore psychokinesis, and I for one do). Tell me one way someone might possible be able to determine the outcome for rolling fair dice from a well shaken cup when he can't touch the dice and I will accept you supposition. Otherwise no.
Solaris 11-05-06, 06:29 PM	Tell me one way someone might possible be able to determine the outcome for rolling fair dice from a well shaken cup when he can't touch the dice and I will accept you supposition. Otherwise no. By watching them in the cup and controlling the throw. It's doable. Not by me, but it's doable. And if you think this is merely "improbable", instead of "for all intents and purposes impossible", then you don't understand these probabilities as well as you claim. If you have faith in your ability to detect fraud or set up a sufficiently controlled experiment with a certainty comparable to the statistical certainty that these rolls are not random, then you're not being realistic.
Nadaka 11-05-06, 07:36 PM	Stops... Thinks... He could not have been cheating by watching the dice. He lacks the ability to look at moving patterns of dots without loosing his balance and falling over. I am not underestimating his degree of (in)competence here. The only fault here could be my memory. I know the last two characters he rolled using the cup. the first with 3 18s and next with 5. The odds given a sample space of 2 of both having 3 or more 18s given the rolling method (4d6,reroll 1s, take 3 highest) are something like 1 in 4.4 million. I remember this so clearly because it is the reason I decided to never let anyone roll for charactes again. I wasn't going to have a 5 18s character and a character with a highest score of 13 in the same party. Before that, the memory is kinda fuzzy, but I can only recall a single character that didn't have several 18s.
dalamb 11-05-06, 11:42 PM	You need to contact James Randi and SCICOP. Either your friend proves them wrong (there may be a prize!) or they figure out how he does it.