3E Arrow Confrontation [Archive] - Wizards Community

3E Arrow Confrontation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Orion Polaris
07-31-04, 02:37 PM Recently my 6 man playgroup(1 Dm, 5 players) have gotten into a bit of a quarrel over the 3E arrow rules. Two members say that when the PHB says that arrows that hit an enemy are lost forever and arrows that miss have a 50% chance of being recovered, they claim that it's unrealistic, and should be 50% chance finding the arrow no matter where it hits.

The other part of my playgroup claim that it's for the good of the game and should not be tampered with. They argue that if an archer can gain arrows back from those they hit, the spellcasters should be able to gain MSC back.

The DM has left it up to a vote, and I'm the last one to put my vote in, and as usual, it comes down to my vote. So I came here to ask:

-Would allowing the archers a 50% chance of recovering arrows from bodies unbalance the game? If so, would it unbalance it by a large margin or a small one?

-Why was the rule implemented in the first place? Anyone know why WOTC chose to make it so that arrows hitting an enemy are irreplacable.

-Has anyone else ran into this problem before, and what has been your solution?

-My character has been afflicted by lycanthrope, but has leveled up in the process, is there any skill/feat that allows me to control it, or should I just get a cleric to remove it?

I want to end this situation with as little bitterness as possible.
Oakraven
07-31-04, 04:28 PM Take them deer hunting with 80+ pound pull bows with hand made arrows, (not the modern machine made arrows)

If they can recover half of the arrows they shoot, they did not hit the deer.

And yes, I am a Bowhunter.

the simple fact is that unlike an arrow that goes into a soft stationary target, a Bladed arrow that goes into tissue is going to be damaged most of the time because of the flexing it will go through as the animal either moves or falles to the ground. and if the blade hits bone, thats going to be damaged as well, at best with a metal tip useing middle age-Renisance metals you will be able to retrieve the tip and need to rework/reforge it to get it straightend out again, and an arrow that is sticking out of flesh and through any armor is more likely to get broken up from movment
masterofmayhem
07-31-04, 05:11 PM From what I've heard on a recent thread, Archers are powerful enough without having to worry about arrow supplies. And that's 3.5.

I never really played 3.0, but archers were suppposed to be even more broken then, what with enhancement bonuses from arrows and bows stacking, along with manyshot and rapidshot working together (not sure about that).

Most likely the reason the archers are whining about their arrows is because they're magical and they don't want to lose them. Whether or not it is realistic (as it apparently is, according to Oakraven), it's more of a balance issue. Do archers really need to become even more powerful with inexhaustible supplies of +5 arrows?

If you want to end this with as little bitterness as possible, you'll have to do whatever you think is best. You know the personalities of your fellow gamers, and you know how they would react to whatever you do.

Now for the lycanthropy thing, there is a skill based off wisdom called shapechange that allows you to control when/where you change. You can find it in the back of the MM, in the feats/skills section.
Good luck. :)
GreyLord
07-31-04, 05:32 PM Originally posted by Oakraven
Take them deer hunting with 80+ pound pull bows with hand made arrows, (not the modern machine made arrows)

If they can recover half of the arrows they shoot, they did not hit the deer.

And yes, I am a Bowhunter.

the simple fact is that unlike an arrow that goes into a soft stationary target, a Bladed arrow that goes into tissue is going to be damaged most of the time because of the flexing it will go through as the animal either moves or falles to the ground. and if the blade hits bone, thats going to be damaged as well, at best with a metal tip useing middle age-Renisance metals you will be able to retrieve the tip and need to rework/reforge it to get it straightend out again, and an arrow that is sticking out of flesh and through any armor is more likely to get broken up from movment

Hmm, I've done some hunting myself and recovered a few arrows from kills...it depends on how where you hit, how quickly it stops moving, and what you hit. It also depends on what you would qualify as reusable. I'd say there's a chance, but there's also a greater chance of it breaking than if it missed. If they have a bowyer/fletcher skill I'd say if they bring supplies they could find some to reuse.

In target practice I recover almost 100% of my arrows. In that light it seems rather strange to have a 50% breakage rate if one misses. Of course I don't shoot indoors (I know some that go to practice indoors, I practice outdoors so perhaps it has to do with what occurs if it hits walls and other items) but outdoors it seems a little extreme (and perhaps expensive) to lose that many arrows on misses.

PS: I should add, in my games I do count the arrow as lost if it hits but I don't relate the game to anything that occurs in real life, that could create a whole bunch of issues with the game!
Edymnion
07-31-04, 05:46 PM Originally posted by GreyLord
In that light it seems rather strange to have a 50% breakage rate if one misses. Ah, there's your mistake. It isn't a 50% chance that a missed shot breaks, but that its unrecoverable. Aka, you lost it.

I don't know about you, but when I do outdoor target practice, even with gold colored arrows, bright fletching, broad daylight on flat grassy plain, I have a bad habit of losing my arrows. You say you target shoot outdoor, you should know how arrows like to bury themselves into the ground.

Now try shooting out in the woods, with wooden shafts and bird feather fletching. You're basically firing camo arrows into rough terrain. Those that don't hit a tree or a rock and break outright (and with wooden shafts instead of modern aluminum, its very easy for one to snap in half upon hitting anything even remotely hard) get lost in the underbrush.

Heck, years ago I lost a crossbow bolt in my own front yard, and I saw where it hit the ground! Never did find it, scared me to death to run the lawn mower over that area the first couple times for fear that I'd hit the bolt and kick it out in some random direction and hurt somebody.

That 50% recovery rate is actually quite generous!
Cymric
07-31-04, 06:28 PM Back in these times the average longbows had THREE foot long arrows( and the pound ratio was a lot higher 150 i think but dont trust me on that one). Now im an ebenist and will name a fact. The longer the shaft of wood the easier it breaks . So a 50% chance to lose is quite normal. Now you shoot on someone. He has a.... oh i dont know 2 foot 8 inch piece of wood sticking out of his chest or leg ot whatever body part. I think he would break the shaft to keep on fighting right but then again thats just me. As for the final arrows that kills him. The deer hunter explained about falling damage so i dont think i have to explain them again.

All in all. The archers are very powerfull already. As a player i never bother with arrows shot. I just scratch them of my sheet if its important or just pay 1 or 2 gold piece each time we ae in town assuming that i used up some of my supply. Our group assume every arrows lost it makes the game faster.

As for the lycanthropy thing. You have the skill of Control shape that you gain automatically as a class skill when you ACCEPT the curse. You have to roll it everytime you are being hit in combat and want to retain your normal form or when you want to shape shift voluntarily or even during full moon.

Hope i helped
Oakraven
07-31-04, 10:48 PM Originally posted by GreyLord
but I don't relate the game to anything that occurs in real life, that could create a whole bunch of issues with the game!
yep, and just taking Archery as one example of what can be weird about the system you have Arrows that can do anywhere from 1D4 on up, but if you use the system in UA how the heck do you explain how you can know the diference betwen an arrow that is goind to do 1-4 points of damage and one that does 1D10 damagewhen its fired from someone who is more than 50 ft away?
Ranger REG
08-01-04, 05:24 AM Originally posted by Orion Polaris

-Would allowing the archers a 50% chance of recovering arrows from bodies unbalance the game? If so, would it unbalance it by a large margin or a small one?
Only if you believe Boromir's death scene as a universal hard rule.

More often than not, the victim would try to remove the arrow and in the process damage it so it cannot be re-used. Even if the arrows cannot be removed, they would simply break the excess sticking out of the wound so it won't hinder their movement and mobility (it also have the benefit of preventing further bleeding from the wound, until they get proper medical care).

-Why was the rule implemented in the first place? Anyone know why WOTC chose to make it so that arrows hitting an enemy are irreplacable.
See above.

-My character has been afflicted by lycanthrope, but has leveled up in the process, is there any skill/feat that allows me to control it, or should I just get a cleric to remove it?

I want to end this situation with as little bitterness as possible.
There are prestige class that allow you to control your lycanthropy, but I can't recall right now.
Michemalangelo
08-01-04, 06:23 AM Originally posted by MasterofMayhem
...Most likely the reason the archers are whining about their arrows is because they're magical and they don't want to lose them. Whether or not it is realistic (as it apparently is, according to Oakraven), it's more of a balance issue. Do archers really need to become even more powerful with inexhaustible supplies of +5 arrows?

I am just wondering if the magical enhancement of an arrow is a one use only, and it loses it upon impact with a body(hit) or an obstacle(miss)?

Can't seem to find any explanation in the PHB or the DMG...
Edymnion
08-01-04, 05:43 PM Originally posted by Michemalangelo
I am just wondering if the magical enhancement of an arrow is a one use only, and it loses it upon impact with a body(hit) or an obstacle(miss)?

Can't seem to find any explanation in the PHB or the DMG... Arrows are still magical items.
They remain magical for as long as they exist.
Its just that in D&D, an arrow that hits is destroyed, which destroys the enchantment. An arrow that misses has a 50-50 chance of breaking or being lost.

Aka, if you miss, and you recover your magic arrow, its still magic.
Farland
08-02-04, 11:52 AM This is off topic, but Cymric, does your sig. have to waste so much space?
Cymric
08-02-04, 01:16 PM Still with the off topic. Yes my sig is very long Farland. I like it that way. But i only post it once in any thread, except when im very tired and forget to turn it off or am really moody. This way i remain somewhat polite.

My sig has exactly 50 lines if you want to know.
Kerrexl
08-02-04, 02:31 PM Originally posted by Farland
This is off topic, but Cymric, does your sig. have to waste so much space? Off topic:
hehe.. I can only se to lines of it... :) - In the "User CP" you can set how many lines of peoples signature you want to se.. :)
Edymnion
08-02-04, 03:54 PM Originally posted by Kerrexl
Off topic:
hehe.. I can only se to lines of it... :) - In the "User CP" you can set how many lines of peoples signature you want to se.. :) Yes, turn on your sig limiter.
That way the boards will automatically lop off all that unnecissary run-on that people put in sigs. I find that 10 lines works best.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Orion Polaris 07-31-04, 02:37 PM	Recently my 6 man playgroup(1 Dm, 5 players) have gotten into a bit of a quarrel over the 3E arrow rules. Two members say that when the PHB says that arrows that hit an enemy are lost forever and arrows that miss have a 50% chance of being recovered, they claim that it's unrealistic, and should be 50% chance finding the arrow no matter where it hits. The other part of my playgroup claim that it's for the good of the game and should not be tampered with. They argue that if an archer can gain arrows back from those they hit, the spellcasters should be able to gain MSC back. The DM has left it up to a vote, and I'm the last one to put my vote in, and as usual, it comes down to my vote. So I came here to ask: -Would allowing the archers a 50% chance of recovering arrows from bodies unbalance the game? If so, would it unbalance it by a large margin or a small one? -Why was the rule implemented in the first place? Anyone know why WOTC chose to make it so that arrows hitting an enemy are irreplacable. -Has anyone else ran into this problem before, and what has been your solution? -My character has been afflicted by lycanthrope, but has leveled up in the process, is there any skill/feat that allows me to control it, or should I just get a cleric to remove it? I want to end this situation with as little bitterness as possible.
Oakraven 07-31-04, 04:28 PM	Take them deer hunting with 80+ pound pull bows with hand made arrows, (not the modern machine made arrows) If they can recover half of the arrows they shoot, they did not hit the deer. And yes, I am a Bowhunter. the simple fact is that unlike an arrow that goes into a soft stationary target, a Bladed arrow that goes into tissue is going to be damaged most of the time because of the flexing it will go through as the animal either moves or falles to the ground. and if the blade hits bone, thats going to be damaged as well, at best with a metal tip useing middle age-Renisance metals you will be able to retrieve the tip and need to rework/reforge it to get it straightend out again, and an arrow that is sticking out of flesh and through any armor is more likely to get broken up from movment
masterofmayhem 07-31-04, 05:11 PM	From what I've heard on a recent thread, Archers are powerful enough without having to worry about arrow supplies. And that's 3.5. I never really played 3.0, but archers were suppposed to be even more broken then, what with enhancement bonuses from arrows and bows stacking, along with manyshot and rapidshot working together (not sure about that). Most likely the reason the archers are whining about their arrows is because they're magical and they don't want to lose them. Whether or not it is realistic (as it apparently is, according to Oakraven), it's more of a balance issue. Do archers really need to become even more powerful with inexhaustible supplies of +5 arrows? If you want to end this with as little bitterness as possible, you'll have to do whatever you think is best. You know the personalities of your fellow gamers, and you know how they would react to whatever you do. Now for the lycanthropy thing, there is a skill based off wisdom called shapechange that allows you to control when/where you change. You can find it in the back of the MM, in the feats/skills section. Good luck. :)
GreyLord 07-31-04, 05:32 PM	Originally posted by Oakraven Take them deer hunting with 80+ pound pull bows with hand made arrows, (not the modern machine made arrows) If they can recover half of the arrows they shoot, they did not hit the deer. And yes, I am a Bowhunter. the simple fact is that unlike an arrow that goes into a soft stationary target, a Bladed arrow that goes into tissue is going to be damaged most of the time because of the flexing it will go through as the animal either moves or falles to the ground. and if the blade hits bone, thats going to be damaged as well, at best with a metal tip useing middle age-Renisance metals you will be able to retrieve the tip and need to rework/reforge it to get it straightend out again, and an arrow that is sticking out of flesh and through any armor is more likely to get broken up from movment Hmm, I've done some hunting myself and recovered a few arrows from kills...it depends on how where you hit, how quickly it stops moving, and what you hit. It also depends on what you would qualify as reusable. I'd say there's a chance, but there's also a greater chance of it breaking than if it missed. If they have a bowyer/fletcher skill I'd say if they bring supplies they could find some to reuse. In target practice I recover almost 100% of my arrows. In that light it seems rather strange to have a 50% breakage rate if one misses. Of course I don't shoot indoors (I know some that go to practice indoors, I practice outdoors so perhaps it has to do with what occurs if it hits walls and other items) but outdoors it seems a little extreme (and perhaps expensive) to lose that many arrows on misses. PS: I should add, in my games I do count the arrow as lost if it hits but I don't relate the game to anything that occurs in real life, that could create a whole bunch of issues with the game!
Edymnion 07-31-04, 05:46 PM	Originally posted by GreyLord In that light it seems rather strange to have a 50% breakage rate if one misses. Ah, there's your mistake. It isn't a 50% chance that a missed shot breaks, but that its unrecoverable. Aka, you lost it. I don't know about you, but when I do outdoor target practice, even with gold colored arrows, bright fletching, broad daylight on flat grassy plain, I have a bad habit of losing my arrows. You say you target shoot outdoor, you should know how arrows like to bury themselves into the ground. Now try shooting out in the woods, with wooden shafts and bird feather fletching. You're basically firing camo arrows into rough terrain. Those that don't hit a tree or a rock and break outright (and with wooden shafts instead of modern aluminum, its very easy for one to snap in half upon hitting anything even remotely hard) get lost in the underbrush. Heck, years ago I lost a crossbow bolt in my own front yard, and I saw where it hit the ground! Never did find it, scared me to death to run the lawn mower over that area the first couple times for fear that I'd hit the bolt and kick it out in some random direction and hurt somebody. That 50% recovery rate is actually quite generous!
Cymric 07-31-04, 06:28 PM	Back in these times the average longbows had THREE foot long arrows( and the pound ratio was a lot higher 150 i think but dont trust me on that one). Now im an ebenist and will name a fact. The longer the shaft of wood the easier it breaks . So a 50% chance to lose is quite normal. Now you shoot on someone. He has a.... oh i dont know 2 foot 8 inch piece of wood sticking out of his chest or leg ot whatever body part. I think he would break the shaft to keep on fighting right but then again thats just me. As for the final arrows that kills him. The deer hunter explained about falling damage so i dont think i have to explain them again. All in all. The archers are very powerfull already. As a player i never bother with arrows shot. I just scratch them of my sheet if its important or just pay 1 or 2 gold piece each time we ae in town assuming that i used up some of my supply. Our group assume every arrows lost it makes the game faster. As for the lycanthropy thing. You have the skill of Control shape that you gain automatically as a class skill when you ACCEPT the curse. You have to roll it everytime you are being hit in combat and want to retain your normal form or when you want to shape shift voluntarily or even during full moon. Hope i helped
Oakraven 07-31-04, 10:48 PM	Originally posted by GreyLord but I don't relate the game to anything that occurs in real life, that could create a whole bunch of issues with the game! yep, and just taking Archery as one example of what can be weird about the system you have Arrows that can do anywhere from 1D4 on up, but if you use the system in UA how the heck do you explain how you can know the diference betwen an arrow that is goind to do 1-4 points of damage and one that does 1D10 damagewhen its fired from someone who is more than 50 ft away?
Ranger REG 08-01-04, 05:24 AM	Originally posted by Orion Polaris -Would allowing the archers a 50% chance of recovering arrows from bodies unbalance the game? If so, would it unbalance it by a large margin or a small one? Only if you believe Boromir's death scene as a universal hard rule. More often than not, the victim would try to remove the arrow and in the process damage it so it cannot be re-used. Even if the arrows cannot be removed, they would simply break the excess sticking out of the wound so it won't hinder their movement and mobility (it also have the benefit of preventing further bleeding from the wound, until they get proper medical care). -Why was the rule implemented in the first place? Anyone know why WOTC chose to make it so that arrows hitting an enemy are irreplacable. See above. -My character has been afflicted by lycanthrope, but has leveled up in the process, is there any skill/feat that allows me to control it, or should I just get a cleric to remove it? I want to end this situation with as little bitterness as possible. There are prestige class that allow you to control your lycanthropy, but I can't recall right now.
Michemalangelo 08-01-04, 06:23 AM	Originally posted by MasterofMayhem ...Most likely the reason the archers are whining about their arrows is because they're magical and they don't want to lose them. Whether or not it is realistic (as it apparently is, according to Oakraven), it's more of a balance issue. Do archers really need to become even more powerful with inexhaustible supplies of +5 arrows? I am just wondering if the magical enhancement of an arrow is a one use only, and it loses it upon impact with a body(hit) or an obstacle(miss)? Can't seem to find any explanation in the PHB or the DMG...
Edymnion 08-01-04, 05:43 PM	Originally posted by Michemalangelo I am just wondering if the magical enhancement of an arrow is a one use only, and it loses it upon impact with a body(hit) or an obstacle(miss)? Can't seem to find any explanation in the PHB or the DMG... Arrows are still magical items. They remain magical for as long as they exist. Its just that in D&D, an arrow that hits is destroyed, which destroys the enchantment. An arrow that misses has a 50-50 chance of breaking or being lost. Aka, if you miss, and you recover your magic arrow, its still magic.
Farland 08-02-04, 11:52 AM	This is off topic, but Cymric, does your sig. have to waste so much space?
Cymric 08-02-04, 01:16 PM	Still with the off topic. Yes my sig is very long Farland. I like it that way. But i only post it once in any thread, except when im very tired and forget to turn it off or am really moody. This way i remain somewhat polite. My sig has exactly 50 lines if you want to know.
Kerrexl 08-02-04, 02:31 PM	Originally posted by Farland This is off topic, but Cymric, does your sig. have to waste so much space? Off topic: hehe.. I can only se to lines of it... :) - In the "User CP" you can set how many lines of peoples signature you want to se.. :)
Edymnion 08-02-04, 03:54 PM	Originally posted by Kerrexl Off topic: hehe.. I can only se to lines of it... :) - In the "User CP" you can set how many lines of peoples signature you want to se.. :) Yes, turn on your sig limiter. That way the boards will automatically lop off all that unnecissary run-on that people put in sigs. I find that 10 lines works best.