3rd party books [Archive] - Wizards Community

3rd party books [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
coppro
09-06-06, 11:18 PM Are any 3rd party books generally worth it, or is it better to stick with WotC-published ones. If they are worth it, which ones?
BladeDrinker
09-06-06, 11:27 PM It dpends on what you are looking for. WotC books are better quality, but usually 3 or 4 times more expensive. You also have access to way more reviews and previews for WotC books than third party stuff, so you can make a more informed purchase with WotC. But third party books cover things that aren't covered by WotC.

I really like Fantasy Flight Games as a whole. They are a really good company with a lot of interesting stuff, not just roleplaying books. But their Legends and Lairs line is very nice, with pretty good art. Green Ronin is OK too.
Kazeofwinds
09-06-06, 11:30 PM The main thing with 3rd party books, is most DMs are far more hesitant to allow 3rd party material in their games.

Thats my experience anyways.
Milo HoBo
09-07-06, 12:56 AM If your like psionics, you basically must go 3rd party.

My suggestions are Hyperconcious by Malhavoc Press?
And Untapped Potential by Dreamscarred Press (currently only available in PDF).
swallowyersoul
09-07-06, 01:55 AM malhavoc press has a lot of solid material. www.malhavoc.com

fantasy flight games has some good stuff, as well, though i wonder a little about their balance sometimes. www.fantasyflight.com

enworld.com has good reviews of lots of stuff from all over the place.
Mitchell
09-07-06, 02:33 AM New feats, spells, equipment, classes, races, etc need a real close look. Some companies may be better than others but you need to make sure. The more new rules, the bigger the risk.
If, on the other hand, you are looking for adventures that use primarily, or entirely, core material, then there shouldn't be a problem. Likewise with city books, NPC books, and that sort of thing. You can easily remove the non-core material if necessary and replace it with something similar from core, or even a non-core WotC book.
Basically it comes down to how much is book X? The cheaper the book, the more likely it will be worth it's cost, since you will likely be able to pull something from it, even if it is only inspiration.
Greg K
09-07-06, 02:56 AM It depends on the third party. While WOTC routinely puts out books with higher production values than most third party supplements, there are some third party companies that produce(d) better rules supplements-at least for my needs.

A good place to learn about third party supplements is www.enworld.org
Treebore
09-07-06, 04:38 AM There are a lot of good 3rd party books out there, and I own them. Plus a fair number that weren't good.:( Fortunately for you the ones that made not so good stuff aren't around anymore.

Definitely look around.

For adventures look for Goodman Games and Necromancer Games.

For other stuff look at Green Ronin.

For other d20 related material look at Malhavoc.

There is some confusion about Malhavoc and Necromancer, this is because they are under the White Wolf company banner. However they are separate companies that just get their material published via White Wolf.

If your looking for systems other than D&D (GASP!! Yeah, I know, I'm habitually sacriligious) take a look at Shadowrun, Mutants and Masterminds, and pretty much anything else that strikes your fancy.

Besides, if you have seen it on TV there is probably an RPG for it, such as Babylon 5, Buffy, Slaine, Conan, Lord of the Rings, and others.

Mongoose, Fan Pro, Green Ronin, and Decipher would be good names to look for in order to find these "other" RPG's.
Ranger REG
09-07-06, 04:40 AM If your like psionics, you basically must go 3rd party.

My suggestions are Hyperconcious by Malhavoc Press?
And Untapped Potential by Dreamscarred Press (currently only available in PDF).
I personally prefer The Psychic's Handbook (by Steve Kenson from Green Ronin Publishing) for a different rules model for psionics.

For historical campaign, see Green Ronin's Mythic Vistas series.
Ranger REG
09-07-06, 04:42 AM The main thing with 3rd party books, is most DMs are far more hesitant to allow 3rd party material in their games.

Thats my experience anyways.
Most D&D DMs, but we d20 GMs are more liberal. :cool: :cool: :cool:
Seeker95
09-07-06, 09:43 AM I use many 3rd party books for ideas. As DM, I do not tend to allow 3rd party (or non-core, in general) material in without very careful consideration. As player, I do not assume any mechanic I find in a non-core supplement (regardless of the publisher) will be allowed in my game without a case-by-case approval by my DM.
Zherog
09-07-06, 09:48 AM There's a lot of good stuff put out by 3rd party publishers. AEG, Fantasy Flight Games, and Sword & Sorcery Studios has a lot of good, fairly well balanced stuff.

Mongoose has some really awesome ideas, but I find their balance to be a bit off - both directions, sometimes too weak, other times too strong. I don't mind tweaking a little bit, so I generally like their stuff.
babysamurai
09-07-06, 10:11 AM Mongoose has some really awesome ideas, but I find their balance to be a bit off - both directions, sometimes too weak, other times too strong.

I agree - Mongoose publishing can be dangerous territory.
Zherog
09-07-06, 11:18 AM Don't get me wrong, though. Mongoose has some truly awesome ideas. I think they're one of the most creative d20 publishers out there. You just have to keep an eye on balance, and be willing to tweak what's in the books.
edwardsobel
09-07-06, 11:32 AM I found that tuhe most under-recommended 3rd party publisher is Kenzer.

yes they make hackmaster but also they make Kingdoms of Kalamar that is a well done 3rd party game setting.

Heck at least thier d20 books have WoTC seal of approval on the cover (all thier stuff must be reviewed by WoTC before release. (yet some DM's still don't like it because its 3rd party stuff.
Lord Mhoram
09-07-06, 02:07 PM I generally use more 3rd party stuff in my D&D games than WoTC stuff.

:D

And I agree about Mongoose - some of the most creative, but you have to watch balance.
Keaerin
09-07-06, 03:20 PM Well one of the best books I've seen is "Familiars" by trolllords, I fell in love with it because it makes one of the weakest class ablilities into something really good.

Demonology by AGE (I think) is also good but more for DMs then players.

Alot of the sword and sorecery stuff tends to be hit or miss but can be different if you want to break molds.

The worlds of warcrack (er warcraft) line is very well done and a lot of little neat things in there as well as a very detailed world to play in.
jokei
09-07-06, 03:26 PM I got a copy of Ravenloft by Sword & Sorcery for Ł3 in a charity shop. To be fair, it wasn't written terribly well, a bit cheesy and loaded with quotes from famous (horror) novels, which didn't need to be there. BUT... there was some cool stuff in there, and I use the rules for insanity on occasion.
BladeDrinker
09-07-06, 05:27 PM fantasy flight games has some good stuff, as well, though i wonder a little about their balance sometimes. www.fantasyflight.com

It should be noted that third party material works better in the hands of a DM than players.
Treebore
09-07-06, 06:11 PM Arthaus did Ravenloft for 3E. They got better as things went along, the DMG is darn good! They also do the Warcraft books (all under the White Wolf banner) and I agree they are very well done and capture the Warcraft "feel" very well.

Unfortunately the Ravenloft line is dead. Fortunately I bought everything and have plenty of good material to work with. Especially when combined with 2E material.
jokei
09-07-06, 06:22 PM I heard on the boards somewhere that a Ravenloft module is getting a release?
aotrscommander
09-07-06, 06:38 PM Depends on the party and the book, just like any non-core book. Examine everything on a case-by-case basis.

Personally, as part of our group's regular games, I use Sword and Sorcery's Relics and Rituals 1 (as when it came out there weren't many expansions and I'll darned if I'm not getting some use out of it), Legends and Lairs' Seafarer's Handbook (which is okay; Stormwrack may well be better, but this came out much eariler when I needed a naval sourcebook).

The Advanced Player's Guide (I think it was Sword and Sorcery, but I'm not sure, definately not WtoC one though; I have a feeling there's a very similar sounding book) was actually fairly dire, and even though I bought it for the two alturnate magic systems, I ended up making my own.

I do have Ravenloft 3.5 PHB, which I used soley as an aid to running the converted Vecna 2nd Ed edition adventures Vecna Reborn and Die Vecna Die.

The two Sword and Sorcery Creature Compendiums I bought but haven't really used (though they were very entertaining reads); but then again neither has the MM2 seen any real use!

(Actually, after learning that out own Sulaco co-authored Relics and Rituals 2, I'm sorely tempted to add that too!)
Zherog
09-07-06, 09:19 PM Arthaus did Ravenloft for 3E. They got better as things went along, the DMG is darn good! They also do the Warcraft books (all under the White Wolf banner) and I agree they are very well done and capture the Warcraft "feel" very well.

Arthaus is a Sword & Sorcery imprint, which in turn is a White Wolf imprint. So saying Arthaus is under the White Wolf banner is technically correct, but there's a step in the middle.
Ranger REG
09-07-06, 10:35 PM Arthaus is a Sword & Sorcery imprint, which in turn is a White Wolf imprint. So saying Arthaus is under the White Wolf banner is technically correct, but there's a step in the middle.
ArtHaus is a White Wolf imprint, long before Sword & Sorcery signed up with White Wolf because S&S needed a publisher and printinghouse (White Wolf also have an extensive distribution network).
coppro
09-07-06, 10:48 PM Wow. This should almost be a sticky, because these advice things are so useful.

Anyway, any ideas as to what to definitely avoid?
cat_god
09-08-06, 12:07 AM I do have Ravenloft 3.5 PHB, which I used soley as an aid to running the converted Vecna 2nd Ed edition adventures Vecna Reborn and Die Vecna Die.

You've converted Die, Vecna, Die? Cool.
Calestin Kethal
09-08-06, 01:27 AM I am very wary of 3rd party stuff, as a rule. And I should be more wary of WoTC stuff too.

I have found that Sword and Sorcery stuff is hit and miss. The Ravenloft setting books were decent, but the Shattered Lands (?) not so much. One of the black magic books by S&S is still labled at my table as the "Big Black Book of Cheese."

I definately agree that moongoose tends to have balance issues either way.

Though my group tends to use strictly WoTC stuff after one too many bad books. Unfortunately, WoTC has their pitfalls too.
rudie
09-08-06, 02:06 AM I haven't found many 3rd party books I like. Especially bastards and bloodlines...
aotrscommander
09-08-06, 06:14 AM You've converted Die, Vecna, Die? Cool.

Thank you. The conversion of Vecna Lives, Vecna Reborn and Die Vecna Die was originally an attempt to save me time on writing a campaign, but instead ended up being the single longest undertaking of quest writing I have ever attempted - the document ran to over a hundred pages. I got around the odd level requirement (high, mid, high) by the amusing expediant of merging the party into the bodies of the pregenerated characters for Vecna Lives. The were about the right level for Vecna Reborn when back to themselves, and were able to carry striaght on to Die Vecna Die thereafter.
Zherog
09-08-06, 08:15 AM ArtHaus is a White Wolf imprint, long before Sword & Sorcery signed up with White Wolf because S&S needed a publisher and printinghouse (White Wolf also have an extensive distribution network).

I'll have to double check the contract I signed later. I'm almost certain, though, that my contract is with Sword and Sorcery, while the ArtHaus logo will appear on the book.
Ranger REG
09-08-06, 07:21 PM I'll have to double check the contract I signed later. I'm almost certain, though, that my contract is with Sword and Sorcery, while the ArtHaus logo will appear on the book.
Does your contract contains the full history of the establishment of White Wolf and ArtHaus? :uh-huh:

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Zherog
09-08-06, 09:43 PM Given the size of it...

But anyway, I just finished looking, and my contract is directly with White Wolf. And, really, the whole discussion is off topic for this thread regardless. I hearby wave the white flag... Because, frankly, I don't really care - as long as I get the check when I'm supposed to. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
coppro 09-06-06, 11:18 PM	Are any 3rd party books generally worth it, or is it better to stick with WotC-published ones. If they are worth it, which ones?
BladeDrinker 09-06-06, 11:27 PM	It dpends on what you are looking for. WotC books are better quality, but usually 3 or 4 times more expensive. You also have access to way more reviews and previews for WotC books than third party stuff, so you can make a more informed purchase with WotC. But third party books cover things that aren't covered by WotC. I really like Fantasy Flight Games as a whole. They are a really good company with a lot of interesting stuff, not just roleplaying books. But their Legends and Lairs line is very nice, with pretty good art. Green Ronin is OK too.
Kazeofwinds 09-06-06, 11:30 PM	The main thing with 3rd party books, is most DMs are far more hesitant to allow 3rd party material in their games. Thats my experience anyways.
Milo HoBo 09-07-06, 12:56 AM	If your like psionics, you basically must go 3rd party. My suggestions are Hyperconcious by Malhavoc Press? And Untapped Potential by Dreamscarred Press (currently only available in PDF).
swallowyersoul 09-07-06, 01:55 AM	malhavoc press has a lot of solid material. www.malhavoc.com fantasy flight games has some good stuff, as well, though i wonder a little about their balance sometimes. www.fantasyflight.com enworld.com has good reviews of lots of stuff from all over the place.
Mitchell 09-07-06, 02:33 AM	New feats, spells, equipment, classes, races, etc need a real close look. Some companies may be better than others but you need to make sure. The more new rules, the bigger the risk. If, on the other hand, you are looking for adventures that use primarily, or entirely, core material, then there shouldn't be a problem. Likewise with city books, NPC books, and that sort of thing. You can easily remove the non-core material if necessary and replace it with something similar from core, or even a non-core WotC book. Basically it comes down to how much is book X? The cheaper the book, the more likely it will be worth it's cost, since you will likely be able to pull something from it, even if it is only inspiration.
Greg K 09-07-06, 02:56 AM	It depends on the third party. While WOTC routinely puts out books with higher production values than most third party supplements, there are some third party companies that produce(d) better rules supplements-at least for my needs. A good place to learn about third party supplements is www.enworld.org
Treebore 09-07-06, 04:38 AM	There are a lot of good 3rd party books out there, and I own them. Plus a fair number that weren't good.:( Fortunately for you the ones that made not so good stuff aren't around anymore. Definitely look around. For adventures look for Goodman Games and Necromancer Games. For other stuff look at Green Ronin. For other d20 related material look at Malhavoc. There is some confusion about Malhavoc and Necromancer, this is because they are under the White Wolf company banner. However they are separate companies that just get their material published via White Wolf. If your looking for systems other than D&D (GASP!! Yeah, I know, I'm habitually sacriligious) take a look at Shadowrun, Mutants and Masterminds, and pretty much anything else that strikes your fancy. Besides, if you have seen it on TV there is probably an RPG for it, such as Babylon 5, Buffy, Slaine, Conan, Lord of the Rings, and others. Mongoose, Fan Pro, Green Ronin, and Decipher would be good names to look for in order to find these "other" RPG's.
Ranger REG 09-07-06, 04:40 AM	If your like psionics, you basically must go 3rd party. My suggestions are Hyperconcious by Malhavoc Press? And Untapped Potential by Dreamscarred Press (currently only available in PDF). I personally prefer The Psychic's Handbook (by Steve Kenson from Green Ronin Publishing) for a different rules model for psionics. For historical campaign, see Green Ronin's Mythic Vistas series.
Ranger REG 09-07-06, 04:42 AM	The main thing with 3rd party books, is most DMs are far more hesitant to allow 3rd party material in their games. Thats my experience anyways. Most D&D DMs, but we d20 GMs are more liberal. :cool: :cool: :cool:
Seeker95 09-07-06, 09:43 AM	I use many 3rd party books for ideas. As DM, I do not tend to allow 3rd party (or non-core, in general) material in without very careful consideration. As player, I do not assume any mechanic I find in a non-core supplement (regardless of the publisher) will be allowed in my game without a case-by-case approval by my DM.
Zherog 09-07-06, 09:48 AM	There's a lot of good stuff put out by 3rd party publishers. AEG, Fantasy Flight Games, and Sword & Sorcery Studios has a lot of good, fairly well balanced stuff. Mongoose has some really awesome ideas, but I find their balance to be a bit off - both directions, sometimes too weak, other times too strong. I don't mind tweaking a little bit, so I generally like their stuff.
babysamurai 09-07-06, 10:11 AM	Mongoose has some really awesome ideas, but I find their balance to be a bit off - both directions, sometimes too weak, other times too strong. I agree - Mongoose publishing can be dangerous territory.
Zherog 09-07-06, 11:18 AM	Don't get me wrong, though. Mongoose has some truly awesome ideas. I think they're one of the most creative d20 publishers out there. You just have to keep an eye on balance, and be willing to tweak what's in the books.
edwardsobel 09-07-06, 11:32 AM	I found that tuhe most under-recommended 3rd party publisher is Kenzer. yes they make hackmaster but also they make Kingdoms of Kalamar that is a well done 3rd party game setting. Heck at least thier d20 books have WoTC seal of approval on the cover (all thier stuff must be reviewed by WoTC before release. (yet some DM's still don't like it because its 3rd party stuff.
Lord Mhoram 09-07-06, 02:07 PM	I generally use more 3rd party stuff in my D&D games than WoTC stuff. :D And I agree about Mongoose - some of the most creative, but you have to watch balance.
Keaerin 09-07-06, 03:20 PM	Well one of the best books I've seen is "Familiars" by trolllords, I fell in love with it because it makes one of the weakest class ablilities into something really good. Demonology by AGE (I think) is also good but more for DMs then players. Alot of the sword and sorecery stuff tends to be hit or miss but can be different if you want to break molds. The worlds of warcrack (er warcraft) line is very well done and a lot of little neat things in there as well as a very detailed world to play in.
jokei 09-07-06, 03:26 PM	I got a copy of Ravenloft by Sword & Sorcery for Ł3 in a charity shop. To be fair, it wasn't written terribly well, a bit cheesy and loaded with quotes from famous (horror) novels, which didn't need to be there. BUT... there was some cool stuff in there, and I use the rules for insanity on occasion.
BladeDrinker 09-07-06, 05:27 PM	fantasy flight games has some good stuff, as well, though i wonder a little about their balance sometimes. www.fantasyflight.com It should be noted that third party material works better in the hands of a DM than players.
Treebore 09-07-06, 06:11 PM	Arthaus did Ravenloft for 3E. They got better as things went along, the DMG is darn good! They also do the Warcraft books (all under the White Wolf banner) and I agree they are very well done and capture the Warcraft "feel" very well. Unfortunately the Ravenloft line is dead. Fortunately I bought everything and have plenty of good material to work with. Especially when combined with 2E material.
jokei 09-07-06, 06:22 PM	I heard on the boards somewhere that a Ravenloft module is getting a release?
aotrscommander 09-07-06, 06:38 PM	Depends on the party and the book, just like any non-core book. Examine everything on a case-by-case basis. Personally, as part of our group's regular games, I use Sword and Sorcery's Relics and Rituals 1 (as when it came out there weren't many expansions and I'll darned if I'm not getting some use out of it), Legends and Lairs' Seafarer's Handbook (which is okay; Stormwrack may well be better, but this came out much eariler when I needed a naval sourcebook). The Advanced Player's Guide (I think it was Sword and Sorcery, but I'm not sure, definately not WtoC one though; I have a feeling there's a very similar sounding book) was actually fairly dire, and even though I bought it for the two alturnate magic systems, I ended up making my own. I do have Ravenloft 3.5 PHB, which I used soley as an aid to running the converted Vecna 2nd Ed edition adventures Vecna Reborn and Die Vecna Die. The two Sword and Sorcery Creature Compendiums I bought but haven't really used (though they were very entertaining reads); but then again neither has the MM2 seen any real use! (Actually, after learning that out own Sulaco co-authored Relics and Rituals 2, I'm sorely tempted to add that too!)
Zherog 09-07-06, 09:19 PM	Arthaus did Ravenloft for 3E. They got better as things went along, the DMG is darn good! They also do the Warcraft books (all under the White Wolf banner) and I agree they are very well done and capture the Warcraft "feel" very well. Arthaus is a Sword & Sorcery imprint, which in turn is a White Wolf imprint. So saying Arthaus is under the White Wolf banner is technically correct, but there's a step in the middle.
Ranger REG 09-07-06, 10:35 PM	Arthaus is a Sword & Sorcery imprint, which in turn is a White Wolf imprint. So saying Arthaus is under the White Wolf banner is technically correct, but there's a step in the middle. ArtHaus is a White Wolf imprint, long before Sword & Sorcery signed up with White Wolf because S&S needed a publisher and printinghouse (White Wolf also have an extensive distribution network).
coppro 09-07-06, 10:48 PM	Wow. This should almost be a sticky, because these advice things are so useful. Anyway, any ideas as to what to definitely avoid?
cat_god 09-08-06, 12:07 AM	I do have Ravenloft 3.5 PHB, which I used soley as an aid to running the converted Vecna 2nd Ed edition adventures Vecna Reborn and Die Vecna Die. You've converted Die, Vecna, Die? Cool.
Calestin Kethal 09-08-06, 01:27 AM	I am very wary of 3rd party stuff, as a rule. And I should be more wary of WoTC stuff too. I have found that Sword and Sorcery stuff is hit and miss. The Ravenloft setting books were decent, but the Shattered Lands (?) not so much. One of the black magic books by S&S is still labled at my table as the "Big Black Book of Cheese." I definately agree that moongoose tends to have balance issues either way. Though my group tends to use strictly WoTC stuff after one too many bad books. Unfortunately, WoTC has their pitfalls too.
rudie 09-08-06, 02:06 AM	I haven't found many 3rd party books I like. Especially bastards and bloodlines...
aotrscommander 09-08-06, 06:14 AM	You've converted Die, Vecna, Die? Cool. Thank you. The conversion of Vecna Lives, Vecna Reborn and Die Vecna Die was originally an attempt to save me time on writing a campaign, but instead ended up being the single longest undertaking of quest writing I have ever attempted - the document ran to over a hundred pages. I got around the odd level requirement (high, mid, high) by the amusing expediant of merging the party into the bodies of the pregenerated characters for Vecna Lives. The were about the right level for Vecna Reborn when back to themselves, and were able to carry striaght on to Die Vecna Die thereafter.
Zherog 09-08-06, 08:15 AM	ArtHaus is a White Wolf imprint, long before Sword & Sorcery signed up with White Wolf because S&S needed a publisher and printinghouse (White Wolf also have an extensive distribution network). I'll have to double check the contract I signed later. I'm almost certain, though, that my contract is with Sword and Sorcery, while the ArtHaus logo will appear on the book.
Ranger REG 09-08-06, 07:21 PM	I'll have to double check the contract I signed later. I'm almost certain, though, that my contract is with Sword and Sorcery, while the ArtHaus logo will appear on the book. Does your contract contains the full history of the establishment of White Wolf and ArtHaus? :uh-huh: Correct me if I'm wrong.
Zherog 09-08-06, 09:43 PM	Given the size of it... But anyway, I just finished looking, and my contract is directly with White Wolf. And, really, the whole discussion is off topic for this thread regardless. I hearby wave the white flag... Because, frankly, I don't really care - as long as I get the check when I'm supposed to. :D