Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lord valimar 09-05-06, 02:31 PM	I keep hearing about 4.0 and really don't understand what the need for a new edition. The 3.5 has its problems but so does any system until the bugs get worked by the players. What would 4.0 have that 3.5 won't have by than. Lord Valimar
OgreMonk 09-05-06, 02:38 PM	Jeez.....Not this :censored: again! All I would want is an end to vancian spellcasting and a fighter that does not peter out after 8th level.
Atirakis 09-05-06, 02:43 PM	You dont want 4.0? Then stop talking about it...
Thelandrach 09-05-06, 03:11 PM	It's not so much that we want it, but that we know they're going to print it some day. So, we need to time fairly carefully when we stop buying 3.5 materials so we don't get stuck buying the 3.5 equivalent of the 2nd edition rules on CD (they came out just a few months before 3.0 was released; I imagine they sold at least five copies...). However, WOTC also wants to time very carefully when they release the game so that we all buy copies of all the books they currently have planned for 3.5. If they were to announce too soon the impending 4.0ness of the game, they'd lose tons of money because people would stop buying books. If they announce too close to release, they'll annoy people. They'd rather annoy people than lose money. So, basically, we're playing chicken with a multinational conglomerate; it's just our way of sticking it to The Man.
emperor norton 09-05-06, 05:00 PM	Didn't you see the big announcement? It's being released the 1st of October. All 3.5 materials are now defunct.
thasis 09-05-06, 06:24 PM	Shut Up! 4e Can Go And Shut Up! No More 4e Topics Pleeeeaaaasssseeee!!!!
emperor norton 09-05-06, 06:27 PM	Oh, and everyone has to play bard variants... and sing in game. lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala lalalalalalala
Tobus Neth 09-05-06, 08:13 PM	Until it is upon you refrain from posting about 4th edition-4E-etc. Stop crying about it. It likely won't appear until 2010 okay.
Vestigial_Thumb 09-05-06, 10:28 PM	Stop talking about 4th Edition! You'll jinx it! *holds hands over ears* Mary had a little lamb, little lamb, little lamb. Mary had a little lamb. It's fleece was white as snow.
Cryforge 09-05-06, 10:33 PM	Please stop talking about 4e, everyone! I'm currently happy with 3.5, and I'm just trying to enjoy it without everyone rumoring that Wizards wants to drop 4e on us and make our older products useless. Considering how long 1e and 2e lasted, I think that 3e has at least another half-decade. (2011)
Kadasbrass 09-05-06, 10:58 PM	Wooh folks, this is alot different then the other 4th edition threads that rear their ugly heads. This one isn't the rumor monger trying to get intention or incite a panic. This is just a honest question being asked by someone trying to get a honest answer. Lord Valimar, people having been talking about the date that 4th edition is due to come out since 3.5 was announced, heck I'd wager that it's been a subject of rumors since 3rd was announced. There is no real evidence of WotC releasing a 4th Edition of D&D anytime soon. Rest assured that with WotC releasing info on their 2007 product calander, and given the fact that 4th Edition would require alot of fore warning before it was released on the markets, that it is nothing more then a rumor at this point. Also consider the fact that WotC has an entirely (semi-)new campaign setting (Eberron) with which to release stuff for. WotC has also begun releasing material that has been in much depand (if poorly producted in somecases), such as Complete Psionic and a Races book with Kobolds :D WotC isn't suicidal enough to release 4th edition yet.
Atirakis 09-06-06, 02:35 AM	WotC isn't suicidal enough to release 4th edition yet. Word. They know better. Too many voices have cried out that 3.5 is GOOD in fact it is better than good. If they make us not only purchase but learn a new system too soon we just wont buy it and they know that. All of that aside they have OFFICIALLY stated that they have plenty more 3.5 to release and 4.0 isnt even on the radar. I am sure some people are working on concepts for it, but it wont be released for at least another few years MINIMUM.
a_psh 09-06-06, 03:19 AM	What would 4.0 have that 3.5 won't have by than.Read the threads on the first page of this board. There ya go. No, it's not coming out any time soon. They're still in the process of market-testing replacements to the spellcasting system. (Oh, wait, is that what the last half-dozen books were all about? Surprise!)
Atirakis 09-06-06, 03:35 AM	Spell Points For the Win!!!!
makeshiftwings 09-06-06, 07:47 AM	WotC will never release 3.5! It's just a rumor! Don't you realize that if they ever released 3.5 it would make all of the 3.0 books obsolete?! They wouldn't do that; everyone would quit D&D and never purchase another book again.
Silverthumb128 09-06-06, 07:53 AM	*holds hands over ears* Mary had a little lamb, little lamb, little lamb. Mary had a little lamb. It's fleece was white as snow. And everywhere that Mary went, people posted threads about 4e. :D
Board_Rider 09-06-06, 11:08 AM	At this years GenCon Indy that Zherog attended, and reported on, he stated that WoTC "officials" presumed that a 4.0 edition would be annouced 08 or 09 with production around 2010 or early 2011. Currently there is still plenty of material that they wish to cover as well as more adventure production. I would agree with the 2010/11 forecast. I probably will not invest unless the system is somehow revolutionary.
Atirakis 09-06-06, 11:44 AM	WotC will never release 3.5! It's just a rumor! Don't you realize that if they ever released 3.5 it would make all of the 3.0 books obsolete?! They wouldn't do that; everyone would quit D&D and never purchase another book again. Dont be stupid. They wont release 4.0 so soon was the point, not they wont release it ever. 3.5 was needed to fix the system, now that its fixed they will not be so suicidal as to try and force a new system down our throats. :rolleyes:
Tanus 09-06-06, 12:10 PM	It's already written and is coming out next Summer or Fall. Expect the announcement soon after the Collectors Edition Monster Manual comes out. You heard it here first.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-06-06, 12:53 PM	4e was released last year. It was identical to 3.5, except Fighter hit points went up to 11. (I feel so dirty for doing that joke.) Also, the PHB killed and ate all the beta testers.
Emrick Blackthorn 09-06-06, 02:33 PM	Delete Double Post
Emrick Blackthorn 09-06-06, 02:38 PM	Everyone~ Hello & good day! It's been over a year since I've been here. I'm sure some of may remember me. I was the crazy old mage that started the 2e trivia game. When I saw this topic, I was like please NO don't do this to me now. The reason I say this is I just now plunged into 3.5 yesterday and sent $150. As I read on I felt much better reading what Board_Rider had wrote: " ... WoTC "officials" presumed that a 4.0 edition would be annouced 08 or 09 with production around 2010 or early 2011." It took me this long to take this pludge and I didn't even want to think of taking another one any time soon. I must also agree with him when he wrote:"I probably will not invest unless the system is somehow revolutionary." That was the main reason I started to look at 3.5 beause things have changed so much for the "old days". With all that said, I'm glad to be back and now on the same playing field as everyone else here. I'm sure I'll have lots more to say and ask as I read more of 3.5. Until then happy Game'n!
OneWinged4ngel 09-06-06, 04:19 PM	I would honestly like to see a better implementation of multiclassing, so we *can* use it to make diverse yet effective characters, instead of what multiclassing usually does (slows you down) The thing is, some classes advance exponentially in power, like the Wizard... and giving up those levels slows you down a great deal, and you're not getting a lot of benefits from those Rogue or Fighter levels you're taking. For solutions to this, you'd either have to get more benefits from multiclassing, some sort of synergy, or having everything advance in a linear way. This way, you could mix and match and create all sorts of interesting concepts (without having to create a prc for everything), instead of the old "multiclassing screws you over unless it's to qualify for a PrC" stigma (which is perfectly valid, because that's what happens)
Kadasbrass 09-06-06, 04:36 PM	WotC will never release 3.5! It's just a rumor! Don't you realize that if they ever released 3.5 it would make all of the 3.0 books obsolete?! They wouldn't do that; everyone would quit D&D and never purchase another book again. 3.5 did not make 3.0 obsolete. A fix was needed for the system and WotC was able to introduce it without tearing down the old.
Kadasbrass 09-06-06, 05:11 PM	Opps, sort of a double post. Hit reply and came back 30 mins later was still up so hit reply again.
lord valimar 09-26-06, 04:43 PM	Everyone Iam glad to see so many people are agianst 4.0 that even the ones who want are afraid that it'll get jinxed. Sorry but as soon as it is published someone will find things that are wrong and the same process will begin agian. I think we should stick with what we have and do the fixing of the game ourselves as we play we fix things we don't even know we did. no 4.0 ever.end the debate!!!!:( :eek: :mad: :mad:
RobbyPants 09-26-06, 04:59 PM	Everyone, stop talking about 4.0!!!! Wait! I'm talking about 4.0! Noooooooo!!!!!!!!! :eek:
djbabygod 09-26-06, 10:13 PM	It's already written and is coming out next Summer or Fall. Expect the announcement soon after the Collectors Edition Monster Manual comes out. You heard it here first. *sigh* I heard the same thing about this previous Gen Con. Care to cite some sort of source or give us some idea of why you have this mystical insight into the inner-workings of WotC?
Dethrill 09-27-06, 04:44 AM	What, nobody noticed. 4.0 is being integrated as new books come out.Take Dragon Magic for instance, it clairified polymorph,it introduced some new magic systems,like sorcerer only spells, dual school spells and then there was DMG2 and PHB2. The folks at WOTC know what havoc a 4.0 release would cause so isn't it easier to create new rules and clarify old rules by bringing out new suppliments for 3.5 that just update an already stable and working game.I mean it makes sence to me.:cool:
babysamurai 09-27-06, 05:50 AM	Well, besides the fact that they already have 7.0 in Japan, when they do come out with 4.0, it will just be a patch – no biggie. I’m sure it will be to 3.5, what 3.5 was to 3.0.
makeshiftwings 09-27-06, 05:51 AM	The folks at WOTC know what havoc a 4.0 release would cause People keep saying this, but the only "havoc" i can see is tons of people buying a whole slew of new books. I'm not sure I see the problem from WotC's perspective.
RobbyPants 09-27-06, 09:32 AM	OMG!!! A friend of a friend of a friend.... of a friend told me its coming out in October!!! omg!!1!11 4thE iz teh brokenze!!! :D ...these threads crack me up.
Gally912 09-27-06, 11:05 AM	Personally, I can't wait for fourth edition. It feels to me, at least now-a-days, that there is so much I need to house rule- either bringing things up to par or knocking down the broken things designers somehow "missed." (Divine metamagic, while as rediculous as it is old, is a good example.) 4E would inject new life into my love for D&D, as long as they do it right. I just hope that it is OGL as well (there are rumors it wouldnt be). I remember reading something that good ole' Monte Cook wrote, he predicted around 2008. Makes sence, considering the products being released. PHB II? Complete Mage (Complete Arcane 2 :bored: ), Fiendish Codex's (how many fiends do we NEED?!?!), etc. I dunno, I could see it happening soon. And it better be the Second Coming of RPGs'
Shadow810 09-27-06, 02:42 PM	what it will be is another reason for the WOTC marketing machine 2 bleed you dry $29.99 at a time...:rolleyes:
Millennium 09-27-06, 03:43 PM	You don't see a need for 4.0? Good, because neither does WOTC. There will probably be a 4.0 someday, many years down the line, but there are no plans for one in the foreseeable future. And as long as they keep Vancian spellcasting, or at least don't adopt video-game magic, then I'm happy with whatever else they might decide to do.
Cincinnati 09-27-06, 09:29 PM	I am going back to 2nd edition in protest of all these 4th edition threads.
a_psh 09-27-06, 10:02 PM	what it will be is another reason for the WOTC marketing machine 2 bleed you dry $29.99 at a time...:rolleyes:So it's different from the current model of getting you to fork over $30 a month for splats how, exactly?
babysamurai 09-28-06, 03:42 AM	I am going back to 2nd edition in protest of all these 4th edition threads. I’m with you, baby! But let’s do it right, and go back to 1st edition AD&D.
Bob Loblaw 09-28-06, 10:51 AM	what it will be is another reason for the WOTC marketing machine 2 bleed you dry $29.99 at a time...:rolleyes: Why should a company try to continue to stay in business? I agree, that would be completely retarded. They should just give it all away, or even better, just stop all together. Just scrap everything and let's go back to playing hoop-and-stick! Look, if you don't want to pay $30 for something, then don't. WotC is not forcing, tricking, or coercing you to buy any of their product. They give us free previews. They put the books out there non-shrink wrapped so you can look through it. I have seen some people with reviews before the book even hits the market. This means that sometimes there are prereleases. If you are buying the book without looking it over, that's your loss. WotC has done their part. Now it's time for you to do yours. If you think that the books are too expensive, then STOP BUYING THEM. It's really a simple formula. I've been using it for many things for many years with great success. It's amazing how much more money I have now. Don't blame WotC for your inability to budget.
a_psh 09-28-06, 02:30 PM	Why should a company try to continue to stay in business? I agree, that would be completely retarded. They should just give it all away, or even better, just stop all together. Just scrap everything and let's go back to playing hoop-and-stick!To be fair, there are RPG business models other than the "book of the month club" system. Just like there are RPG design models that don't demand a Complete Mage and a Complete Arcane and a bunch of variant spellcasters in Tome of Magic and a 3.0 Tome and Blood and a Spell Compendium and a Magic of Eberron and a Magic of Faerun and... you get the idea. But those aren't the D&D model and haven't been the D&D model for at least 25 years, so switching to them would be rather disastrous: huge loss of money, almost nobody who plays D&D would like it, lots of designers would have to be fired for lack of anything to do; everything lost and nothing gained. But it is actually possible to make a company that doesn't pump out splats or even one that only publishes systems that are self-contained in one book, and it is actually possible to "support" one's hobby by just making a one-time purchase rather than shelling out cash for new stuff every month.
Bob Loblaw 09-28-06, 04:37 PM	To be fair, there are RPG business models other than the "book of the month club" system. True, but that wasn't the complaint. The complaint was "I don't want to pay $30 a book." Just like there are RPG design models that don't demand a Complete Mage and a Complete Arcane and a bunch of variant spellcasters in Tome of Magic and a 3.0 Tome and Blood and a Spell Compendium and a Magic of Eberron and a Magic of Faerun and... you get the idea. Some of those books are more "needed" than others, I'll agree to that. The setting specific ones are actually great if you play almost exclusively in those settings. I'm a fan of compendiums. Updating 3.0 material to 3.5 material is ookay, when needed. Some of the stuff could have been left alone. I don't think that the differences between some of the old prestige classes and the updated ones are enough to warrant space usage. In fact, some of it could have been done like the 3.5 PDF update for the rest of the 3.0 material. But those aren't the D&D model and haven't been the D&D model for at least 25 years, so switching to them would be rather disastrous: huge loss of money, almost nobody who plays D&D would like it, lots of designers would have to be fired for lack of anything to do; everything lost and nothing gained. Well, they could focus on making each book a little stronger and tighter. However, it will still cost some people their jobs. I think that some of the designers could be the ones scouring the books to make sure that old ideas are not being rehashed. They could make sure that when a feat or spell is reprinted, it isn't changed or that it is clearly marked as an update. [QOUTE]But it is actually possible to make a company that doesn't pump out splats or even one that only publishes systems that are self-contained in one book, and it is actually possible to "support" one's hobby by just making a one-time purchase rather than shelling out cash for new stuff every month.[/QUOTE] This is a very true statement. However, the leading company needs to produce more for the hobby or the rest of the industry will feel like things are starting to go downhill. Also, note that I don't think people should purchase every book WotC puts out. I don't think they should purchase any of the products, unless they feel it is worth their money. I don't own half of the stuff they have produced. I don't intend on buying it either. I think that people can support their hobby better by making intelligent purchases and well-thought out responses back to WotC for those purchases. When I purchase something that exceeds my expectations, I make sure to let that company know. I also have no problems letting the company know when I disapprove of their product or services. Sometimes things get fixed. Sometimes they don't. I just make sure that I make a better decision next time.
Elrond_Hubbard 09-28-06, 04:59 PM	WotC will never release 3.5! It's just a rumor! Don't you realize that if they ever released 3.5 it would make all of the 3.0 books obsolete?! They wouldn't do that; everyone would quit D&D and never purchase another book again. Gotta be one worrier in every crowd. Look, they work up to two years out on their publications - why would they have stuff in the pipeline for 2008 if they were just going to be obsolete before they even went to press?
Elrond_Hubbard 09-28-06, 05:02 PM	Why should a company try to continue to stay in business? I agree, that would be completely retarded. They should just give it all away, or even better, just stop all together. Just scrap everything and let's go back to playing hoop-and-stick! LOL, great point. Last time I checked, you could have a fabulous campaign with the core books, or you could choose to seek more material elsewhere. It's up to you. But don't frickin' ***** about the price of the books. Either buy them or don't, but stop the incessant moaning about price. Nobody is forcing you to buy squat.
makeshiftwings 09-28-06, 05:04 PM	Gotta be one worrier in every crowd. Look, they work up to two years out on their publications - why would they have stuff in the pipeline for 2008 if they were just going to be obsolete before they even went to press? For the record, I wasn't worrying, I was just pointing out that everyone was certain that WotC wasn't really going to do the 3.5 update and that it was just a rumor, until it got announced. Of course they are going to do 4th, and yes, of course they are going to release it right on the tails of 3.5th books, making them "obsolete". They're a company that needs to make money; you think they're going to just take two years off and not release a single D&D product just to make people feel better about buying the 4th edition books? 95% of the people who are playing 3.5 are going to buy 4th, despite their puffed up claims of boycott on the forums, plus a whole bunch of new people who haven't played D&D yet. It will be a gold mine for WotC; they aren't going to care a whit that they released it too close to 3.5 Player's Handbook III: The Complete Munchkin or whichever book comes out before it.
Elrond_Hubbard 09-28-06, 05:13 PM	Keep in mind that 3.0 was a vastly different system, and one being used for the first time; it makes sense that a 3.5 would come along and smooth over some of the rought edges created by the brand new system. That said, I don't see 3.5 as being in need of such an update, and I don't think most users (or the WotC folks) do either.
Cincinnati 09-28-06, 08:47 PM	ZOMG I just heard from my cousin's little brother that 5TH EDITION is rumored to be released sometime in spring 2028 !!!!!!!!! Holy CRAP!! My books are useless! I'm wetting myself!!!!!!
Otto the Bugbear 09-29-06, 12:32 PM	I probably will not invest unless the system is somehow revolutionary. I think it will be exactly the opposite of revolutionary. It'll be so close the the current model, that there won't likely be much hassle over switching or using old material. They may change stuff around, consolidate stuff, include errata and clarify stuff from the FAQ, but it's not going to be radically different than the d20 system. I can imagine things like Binder and ToB being incorporated into the PHB. The sorcerer being switched to warmage / beguiler / dread necro. Warlock inclusion. Turning as damage instead of undead fear / auto-kill. New polymorph rules. Wild Shape changed to PHB II shapeshifter. Actually, the list goes on and on. I see the skeleton being exactly the same as 3.5 -- the d20 system -- with some of the meat being different, like the class list, consolidated skill rules, feat changes, magic changes (specific spells and the base casting system) among other things. Just an opinion. Cheers Otto :)
Kadasbrass 09-29-06, 01:09 PM	I think it will be exactly the opposite of revolutionary. You mean we will not be switching to the d40 system? :weep: :D
makeshiftwings 09-29-06, 05:38 PM	I think the recent design articles, like this newest one: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060929a are very interesting, and as usual, I think the changes gradually occuring to 3.5 are an example of the more sweeping changes that will occur in 4th. I like that some of the designers are finally realizing "God, this game is ridiculously over-complicated sometimes" and are trying to take steps to rectify it and make it easier on new players. It's a little odd though, to see that the designers apparently are only now hitting the walls and edging their way around problems that some of us have seen for years. The Delve Format articles, this one and the previous one, are about designing a particular game of D&D specifically so that it can be quickly picked up and played by the DM and players without too much rules-searching and ambiguous arbitration. I think that the entire game should be designed with this in mind, at least at its core. I'm sure a lot of people would be horrified to think that a druid would get something "simple" like Rejuvenation and a pre-statted Shapechange instead of Summon Animals and open-ended Wild Shape, because "The core of D&D is all about spending ten minutes paging through the monster manual every time my turn comes up", but I think WotC is starting to realize that their game is easier to learn and less prone to rules-exploitation if they reel things in a bit and enforce specialization among characters. I also find the fact that the designer basically says "And, because Vancian casting is too annoying, we just put a small number of pre-selected spells for the Vancian casters" is somewhat telling. I do think that 4th edition will be the end of Vancian and huge spell lists, and that we're going to see much more classes / subclasses each with its own smaller list of always-available spells. Similarly, the Delve format, and many newer classes (Book of Nine swords) is balanced around the idea of per-encounter balance rather than per-day; I think this too will become a part of 4th edition.
Sousinne 11-13-06, 05:17 PM	What are they putting out? Expeditions to <place>. Complete <class> 2. Seriously, what was the last generic rule-book they put out? Dragon Magic, a book about dragons teaching characters magic. Before the end of 2nd edition, they did Die, Vecna, Die!, the Apocalypse Stone, and other adventures. A good while back, at Magic of Incarnum, they said that a problem for them was that they had made most of the "natural" books already, like race books, class books, even environment books. MoI was intended as an experiment to try to break new ground. So... it's coming, at least from what I can guess. When thinking about this, don't compare it to 3.5, compare it to the coming of 3.0. What they are doing is putting out stuff that is either adventures (expeditions), fluff (cityscape), or otherwise pretty neutral in regards to becoming obsolete. They did the exact same thing before 3.0.
Ogre4Hire 11-13-06, 10:51 PM	As long as Wizards is raking in the cash from their 3.5 books, they have absolutely no reason to spend the money required to develop a new edition. Suddenly, I feel a strange compulsion to go buy Dragonmarked...
a_psh 11-13-06, 11:13 PM	As long as Wizards is raking in the cash from their 3.5 books, they have absolutely no reason to spend the money required to develop a new edition.That's why you make incremental changes over years and years and years (and have the opportunity to try them out) so you don't have to splurge on a lot of development when it's time to release the sucker. The new books are pretty good examples of designers spitballing concepts for a big rewrite.
thought_riot 11-14-06, 12:47 AM	For one, stop calling it 4.0. Did anyone call 3rd Edition 3.0 until 3.5 came out? No. You're assuming they're going to need to release an update like they did with 3rd Edition. It's 4th Edition. Secondly, 4th Edition would seemingly require a complete rewrite and an abandonment of the d20 system. A new edition means a new edition. 2nd Edition was totally different than 1st. 3rd Edition was totally different than 2nd. 3.5 is NOT totally differnet than 3.0. It's an update. 3.5 has no giant flaws that can't be easily corrected. They have plenty of material already lined up through 2008, so you're looking at least 5 years down the line before 4th Edition. I can honestly see them never releasing 4th Edition. Whenever there is a 4th Edition (if at all), I'm sticking with 3.5. My books don't become obsolete. I play with them. A lot of people still play 2nd Edition and are doing just fine. I have over 30 3.5 books, and I'm not going to just buy a new edition unless (like someone previously stated) it's completely revolutionary.