Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MHolland 08-17-07, 12:22 AM	A lot of people were concerned about how long D&D 4E has been in playtesting. According to our MC last night 4E has already been in playtesting at WOTC for the last two years and playtesting will continue for some time. So it seems the next edition of the game is definitely getting the work it needs before it is released.
Ranger REG 08-17-07, 04:52 AM	I just hope that the playtesters would put the new rules through the wringers and gauntlets. Abuse the rules and expose the flaws that the designers and editors have overlooked. And as a bonus, be the extra proofreaders in checking the spellings and grammars, both rules and examples text. Sorry, but my gripe is when the example material don't actually follow the rules material, and you have to come here or remember that the rules always trump the examples. Personally they should both be in-sync for clarification purpose. After all, if you ask your teacher to clarify the textbook's material but gives you a confusingly different examples, then what's the point of having that teacher to help you clarify in the first place? :uh-huh:
Potato Weasel 08-17-07, 07:39 AM	Taking that they never printed erratta for any books, or included them in future printings (with the exception of the over expensive leather bound ones that i'm sincerely glad i didnt buy now) I dont think much is gonna change. It's most likely gonna end up as we are the real play testers, and they'll just release 4.5 in three to four years. I'm just really dissappointed because they were finally going right with 3.5 by releasing products like the MIC and the fiendish codexes which i quite enjoyed.
MHolland 08-17-07, 08:06 AM	Taking that they never printed erratta for any books, or included them in future printings (with the exception of the over expensive leather bound ones that i'm sincerely glad i didnt buy now) I dont think much is gonna change. It's most likely gonna end up as we are the real play testers, and they'll just release 4.5 in three to four years. I'm just really dissappointed because they were finally going right with 3.5 by releasing products like the MIC and the fiendish codexes which i quite enjoyed. Actually, each book in 4E you buy has a code. That code unlocks that book for you online to have an electronic copy of the book that they plan to fix along the way as rules change and errata is found. The MC made a point of addressing how they will be handling those kinds of things with 4E.
Board_Rider 08-17-07, 08:32 AM	Actually, each book in 4E you buy has a code. That code unlocks that book for you online to have an electronic copy of the book that they plan to fix along the way as rules change and errata is found. The MC made a point of addressing how they will be handling those kinds of things with 4E. Thats kind of cool but kind of disappointing as well. I think that things like errata is free. Of course, it may still be free but I am sure that the "DIers" will get it first.
MHolland 08-17-07, 09:10 AM	Thats kind of cool but kind of disappointing as well. I think that things like errata is free. Of course, it may still be free but I am sure that the "DIers" will get it first. You have a point there. The real question though is... With everything they are offering on the website will you really be able to resist being a member? Dungeon magazine, Dragon magazine, electronic copies of all your books, errata updates, rules fixes/changes/updates, art, editorials, the virtual table top, the character generation software, 3D imaging software, mapping software (dungeons), all the DM tools to generate and run the game, voice chat, text chat, character database tools, campaign database tools, and much, much more... It is going to be hard for anyone to resist this package especially if the subscription is something reasonable like $15 a month. Dragon and Dungeon were around $7 I think (please correct me if I am wrong). If the price ends up around that range you won't be spending anymore money but will be getting so much more.
MOTHdevil 08-17-07, 10:09 AM	Actually, each book in 4E you buy has a code. That code unlocks that book for you online to have an electronic copy of the book that they plan to fix along the way as rules change and errata is found. The MC made a point of addressing how they will be handling those kinds of things with 4E. Fundamentally a good idea, but am I the only one thinking that this will be an even greater excuse to rush product to market sans proofreading? Unless they hire a "clean up crew" to update all the mistakes after each monthly book is released, I just don't see WOTC consistently updating errata for these books in the long term. "Unlock code" or not. If they insist on this rushed model, might I suggest allowing the player base to provide some of the updates? Each unlock code would instead go to an errata electronic document. This would have the additional errata material that could also be supplemented or updated by players, a la Wikipedia, perhaps with some sort of on/off commenting function. This way, comments and suggestions for each typo or broken rule stay in one easily-referenced place. For example, it would look like this: Core Player's Book: "A 10 foot step is allowed in addition to a standard attack action. Only one 10 foot step may be made per round" Electronic Official Errata: "A 5 foot step is allowed in addition to a standard attack action. Only one 5 foot step may be made per round and can only be made if another move action has not taken place for that round." Commenting (on): USER 12345 "A 5 foot step is allowed in addition to a standard attack action. Only one 5 foot step may be made per round and can only be made if another move action has not taken place for that round. The 5 foot step also counts as the character's free action for the round." USER 12346 "We allow a 5 foot step to be combined with an attack action, so if a character's base speed is 30, they can actually move 35 feet in the round if the five foot step is made after the attack." Etc. Etc. I've mentioned this before regarding unsupported campaigns like Planescape. Community updating is the future. WOTC should let the fans do some of the work for them.
Professorpain 08-17-07, 10:39 AM	I just hope that the playtesters would put the new rules through the wringers and gauntlets. Abuse the rules and expose the flaws that the designers and editors have overlooked. And as a bonus, be the extra proofreaders in checking the spellings and grammars, both rules and examples text. Sorry, but my gripe is when the example material don't actually follow the rules material, and you have to come here or remember that the rules always trump the examples. Personally they should both be in-sync for clarification purpose. After all, if you ask your teacher to clarify the textbook's material but gives you a confusingly different examples, then what's the point of having that teacher to help you clarify in the first place? :uh-huh: It doesn't matter how much they playtest it. Wizards will put out enough splat books to break the game in a month or two.
Archus Forix 08-17-07, 11:36 AM	Fundamentally a good idea, but am I the only one thinking that this will be an even greater excuse to rush product to market sans proofreading? Unless they hire a "clean up crew" to update all the mistakes after each monthly book is released, I just don't see WOTC consistently updating errata for these books in the long term. "Unlock code" or not. If they insist on this rushed model, might I suggest allowing the player base to provide some of the updates? Each unlock code would instead go to an errata electronic document. This would have the additional errata material that could also be supplemented or updated by players, a la Wikipedia, perhaps with some sort of on/off commenting function. This way, comments and suggestions for each typo or broken rule stay in one easily-referenced place. For example, it would look like this: Core Player's Book: "A 10 foot step is allowed in addition to a standard attack action. Only one 10 foot step may be made per round" Electronic Official Errata: "A 5 foot step is allowed in addition to a standard attack action. Only one 5 foot step may be made per round and can only be made if another move action has not taken place for that round." Commenting (on): USER 12345 "A 5 foot step is allowed in addition to a standard attack action. Only one 5 foot step may be made per round and can only be made if another move action has not taken place for that round. The 5 foot step also counts as the character's free action for the round." USER 12346 "We allow a 5 foot step to be combined with an attack action, so if a character's base speed is 30, they can actually move 35 feet in the round if the five foot step is made after the attack." Etc. Etc. I've mentioned this before regarding unsupported campaigns like Planescape. Community updating is the future. WOTC should let the fans do some of the work for them. That does seem quite cool, having an official 'Errata Wiki' for us to handle, it will give us (and subsequently WOTC... don't think I don't see you reading our posts, with an 'oh yea, that will be cool! We'll nick that!' attitude) an interesting insight to how people play their games and how we can learn from each other. However the only thing I do not like is the monthly fee, I am English, so it will work out about £7 a month for this... and I just think it should only be the BOOKS we have to pay for, it has always been the Core books that we needed to pay for and play with, and that is it!
MOTHdevil 08-17-07, 12:46 PM	That does seem quite cool, having an official 'Errata Wiki' for us to handle, it will give us (and subsequently WOTC... don't think I don't see you reading our posts, with an 'oh yea, that will be cool! We'll nick that!' attitude) an interesting insight to how people play their games and how we can learn from each other. However the only thing I do not like is the monthly fee, I am English, so it will work out about £7 a month for this... and I just think it should only be the BOOKS we have to pay for, it has always been the Core books that we needed to pay for and play with, and that is it! Well, my understanding would be this "unlock code" is separate from the other pay-for online content... Basically, it's a free part of owning the book. If you buy a legit copy of the book, you get an unlock code. It helps prevent piracy (if you want the errata access), and if done like I suggested earlier (D&D Wiki), it could keep these sorts of homebrew improvements easily shared and organized (rather than on an eclectic message board) and potentially spurn people into the pay portions of their site (i.e. serve as a tool to get customers to pay for additional content not related to that specific book errata).
Otto the Bugbear 08-17-07, 12:47 PM	I just hope that the playtesters would put the new rules through the wringers and gauntlets. Abuse the rules and expose the flaws that the designers and editors have overlooked. And as a bonus, be the extra proofreaders in checking the spellings and grammars, both rules and examples text. As much as I'd like to see that too, I think we all know that's not how it happens. WotC, from all the little tid-bits they've given over the past seven years, playtests by sitting around a table playing a run-of-the-mill campaign with the new mechanics. Granted, we're not getting the whole picture, but the snippets we've been given, coupled with the way stuff is printed, and subsequently broken before the official release date by the esteemed C.O. board, I kinda doubt they really try that hard to abuse the rules and expose flaws.
jaelis 08-17-07, 01:41 PM	I just hope that the playtesters would put the new rules through the wringers and gauntlets. Abuse the rules and expose the flaws that the designers and editors have overlooked. While I totally agree about outright errata and mistakes, I'm not so sure whether its a good idea to agressively seal all the "cracks" in the rules. Take Pun Pun as the ultimate example. I think the existance of Pun Pun is a net positive for the game... he is a source of entertainment for everyone, he gives optimizers a great platform for showcasing their skills, and he has zero-impact on your basic friendly game. Wouldn't it be kind of boring not to have loopholes like that to look for and abuse? I'm not trying to excuse sloppy design. I'm just saying that the existance of subtle problems that take an effort to exploit isn't so bad.
Qwicksilver 08-17-07, 01:50 PM	As much as I'd like to see that too, I think we all know that's not how it happens. WotC, from all the little tid-bits they've given over the past seven years, playtests by sitting around a table playing a run-of-the-mill campaign with the new mechanics. Granted, we're not getting the whole picture, but the snippets we've been given, coupled with the way stuff is printed, and subsequently broken before the official release date by the esteemed C.O. board, I kinda doubt they really try that hard to abuse the rules and expose flaws. Mmm yes I think this is probably what will happen, I'm really hoping it isn't though. I really want to believe that WotC is trying their best to make a greatly internally balanced game. I'm still holding out hope....
graddlin 08-17-07, 03:09 PM	You know, I am indeed looking forward to 4th Edition's release. It's time for a good clean slate for everyone. However, I am not looking forward to all of the computer-based junk. My D&D lives on the table-top, in the dice, and in the heads of the DM and Players. Another fear I have is this: when the subscription-based site goes live, are they going to trash this site? The free one? I certainly hope not. Take care, firends.