Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Greg K 08-11-06, 09:45 PM	A'koss at ENWorld found the following from Gen Con at the Gaming Report. _____________________ Dan Sivils Reports: We got a chance to talk to D&D Associate Brand Manager, Kevin Wilson and other WotC officials today on the show floor about the future of D&D and the rampant rumors on a 4th edition. He did confirm that there is no work being done in the development of a 4th edition that would force players to use miniatures to play the game. * We also confirmed that at this time no 4th edition product will be in any Wizards of the Coast's product catalogs through 2007. * This would seemingly put an actual product release sometime in 2008. Wizards of the Coast is working on all sorts of new 3.5 products that are not even on the current schedule yet so expect more 3.5 goodness for the next year and half. One such release is the Monster Gift Set which will feature all the current Monster Manuals in a gift pack at a reduced price. Another release which WotC would not confirm or deny is Monster Manual V. I have it from a good source to expect this next year. Kevin also mentioned that Wizards intends to utilize the history of the Brand more in future releases in both content and graphic treatment. Concerning yet unannounced products, tomorrow's Sneak Peek seminar will reveal a few new details. We'll be covering it live with updates via our mobile hookup. - from the Gaming Report. Purely My Speculation (Dan Sivils): We did not get any specifics on when an announcement would be made on 4th edition, nor did I expect to, but I have some suspicions on how this will unfold based on this discussion with Kevin and the discussions in the Miniatures Seminar yesterday. Two days straight I have heard that Wizards of the Coast wants to make Winter Fantasy the premier event for all things D&D. Kevin stated today; "..the show currently known as Winter Fantasy will be the primary place to push D&D and 2007 will reveal a lot". Wizards has stated that Winter Fantasy is where they plan to reward D&D fans who attend with special sneak peeks (like this past year's preview of the Red Dragon Figure), insider concept pieces to get feedback on, and news on the D&D brand. I suspect based on this and numerous hints over the past few days that 4th Edition will be announced at Winter Fantasy. The release will most likely be in 2008 based on the current catalog details we have probably at Winter Fantasy, again. ______________________________
trolloc 08-11-06, 10:23 PM	Monster Manual V out so fast? geez i wonder why. :rolleyes:
kaeso 08-11-06, 10:56 PM	If you are right, I do not think this will end well :(
Yak of Darkness 08-11-06, 11:21 PM	He did confirm that there is no work being done in the development of a 4th edition that would force players to use miniatures to play the game. * We also confirmed that at this time no 4th edition product will be in any Wizards of the Coast's product catalogs through 2007. * This would seemingly put an actual product release sometime in 2008.So, hold on . . . the information he gets is: No minis-centric 4e planned. No 4e products in 2007. And the conclusion? OMG 4e IN 2008! Think how awesome this train of thought can be when you apply it to real life: [Yak] Hey, boss . . . you givin' me a raise today? [Yak's boss] No. [Yak] Sweet! This has to mean I'm getting a raise tomorrow! The best part about the 4e conclusion is that it's based on nothing but internet speculation, which can't be wrong. 4e is imminent!
Greg K 08-12-06, 12:14 AM	So, hold on . . . the information he gets is: No minis-centric 4e planned. Yak, re-read that part of the post. There was no denial that 4e is in development. The denial was the development focus of 4e being mini-centric No 4e products in 2007. And the conclusion? OMG 4e IN 2008! I agree that there is an apparent rush to conclusion regarding the 2008 release (If I recall correctly there was at least two years between the 3e questionaire and the release of 3e). However, he does say that there has been other hints from WOTC reps at the con. I would like to know what those hints are that led him to his conclusion regarding the release date. Was it whatever led Kevin to stating that Winter Fantasy "2007 will reveal a lot" regarding DND?
Kojiro James 08-12-06, 12:16 AM	I don't think so. There's still a buttload of stuff for Wizards to milk 3.5 on. However, MMV sounds cool... maybe the Leprechaun and Hydroloth will be in this one.... WE CAN ONLY HOPE!
Yak of Darkness 08-12-06, 12:48 AM	Yak, re-read that part of the post. There was no denial that 4e is in development. The denial was the development focus of 4e being mini-centricSorry, but I don't see it. Unless there's more to this than what you pasted in the thread, I don't think there's a 4e confirmation there. Dan Sivils Reports: We got a chance to talk to D&D Associate Brand Manager, Kevin Wilson and other WotC officials today on the show floor about the future of D&D and the rampant rumors on a 4th edition. He did confirm that there is no work being done in the development of a 4th edition that would force players to use miniatures to play the game.I see how Dan Sivils wanted to talk about "the future of D&D and the rampant rumors on a 4th edition," and that Kevin Wilson said "there is no work being done in the development of a 4th edition that would force players to use miniatures to play the game." The former mentions 4e the way it's been mentioned on these boards for a long time now, as "rampant rumor." The latter is a statement that there's no minis-centric 4e in development; it makes no statement on 4e in general. You're right when you say that Kevin Wilson didn't deny 4e was in development, but that does not mean that 4e actually is in development. Unless, of course, you also believe that Kevin Wilson is editor of Vogue, a gold medal snowboarder, can teleport with the power of thought, and tried to raise Marilyn Monroe from the dead in a dark necromantic ritual--all things Kevin Wilson failed to deny. Not denying something is not the same as confirmation. Although conflating one with the other is what more than a few 4e (and other) rumors have been based on. ;) That being said, I do fully deny every hypothetical I considered Kevin Wilson for. I did try to raise Bette Page from the dead once, but was short on some onyx gems. For what it's worth, there've been so damn many 4e rumors, that eventually one of them is going to be right (since WotC will, at some as-of-yet-unknown point in the future, likely release a fourth edition . . . since that's just the way the gaming industry works). That said, it's not going to be a confirmation of correct market forecasting, insider information, psychic powers, or anything like that . . . but merely an example of throwing enough crap against the wall so some of it has to stick. If my weatherman predicts rain every single day, he's just guessing. And if it actually does rain, it doesn't mean he was finally right, it means he was finally lucky. :D
Barloch 08-12-06, 12:55 AM	Why is everyone so 4e frenzied? Look at how long the other incarnations of d&d lasted! I don't think we'll see 3rd ed gone after only something like 5 or 6 years (that might not be accurate, someone know when it originally came out cuz I certainly don't).
OrbitalB 08-12-06, 01:08 AM	Not denying something is not the same as confirmation. Although conflating one with the other is what more than a few 4e (and other) rumors have been based on. ;) You're still missing the point. He did confirm that there is no work being done in the development of a 4th edition that would force players to use miniatures to play the game. If I said, "Joe confirmed that there are no pigs being loaded into the truck that would spontaneously grow wings." Does that statement give you the impression that there is no truck at all? Does it give you the impression that there are no pigs (period) being loaded into the truck? Or does it simply mean "Yeah there's a truck, and yeah there's pigs... but none of them are the wings sprouting type." That's exactly what the original statement says. "Yeah, theres a 4th edition. Yeah, there's work being done on it... but no work involving a miniatures requirement. Edit: That said. It should surprise nobody that there is 'work' being done on 4th. How much, is unknown. And I don't think the recorded statements necessarily implies that 4th is coming in 2008... just not earlier.
Yak of Darkness 08-12-06, 01:24 AM	If I said, "Joe confirmed that there are no pigs being loaded into the truck that would spontaneously grow wings."In such a situation, I'd bet I could see a truck. I'd bet I could see pigs. And more importantly, you gave me a direct quote, with all the nuance that the original speaker gave. Note how this is strikingly different from: He did confirm that there is no work being done in the development of a 4th edition that would force players to use miniatures to play the game.Now, maybe ol' Kevin actually said something like, "No, that 4e we're working on doesn't force minis play." If he did, then you'd be spot on (and, as he's not actually quoted in the pasted text, he might have . . . I don't know). It just as easily could have been Dan asking something like, "Are you working on a 4e that forces miniature gaming?" (a perfectly "reasonable" question, since that's the rumor du jour), with Kevin saying, "No." Such a response both doesn't imply anything and keeps Dan's paraphrasing accurate. Show me a pig, a truck, or a direct quote. Otherwise, it's still just more rumor.
Cadfan 08-12-06, 01:34 AM	OrbitalB: part of the problem is that the EnWorld people have basically no credibility whatsoever when it comes to questions about WOTC's business model. At this point, I'd need them to post a statement made on camera by WOTC's board of directors in the presence of a notary before I'd believe them.
UmbralKnight 08-12-06, 01:51 AM	This is not good... :mad: 4e in 2008? If this is true, those of us who do not want to see this come to pass must strike out in fear and in ignorance like any worthy mob! Let the pitchforks be raised and may the witch burnings begin!
Germytech 08-12-06, 02:15 AM	[Yak] Hey, boss . . . you givin' me a raise today? [Yak's boss] No. [Yak] Sweet! This has to mean I'm getting a raise tomorrow! Actually, I'd liken it far more to this: germy: Hey, boss... are you firing me today? germy's boss: No. germy: Oh sh**! I'm getting fired tomorrow! At this point in time, I would not consider the advent of 4E a "positive" thing.
Soel Griffin 08-12-06, 02:16 AM	Is work being done on 4e? Every bit of development is a progression towards it, even if not directly. In that regard, there will always be development for the next edition as soon as the first book goes out for the current edition. Design and development is always asking the question, "Could we have done that better?" If not, then they aren't doing their job. I don't care when 4e comes out. If its next year, or whenever, if the ideas are good enough and inspire me, and most importantly if it looks like it'll be FUN, then I'll probably check it out. Backwards compatibility is hoped for, but its not particularly hard to convert anything from any edition of d&d or even another game, to current d&d.
FeceMan 08-12-06, 03:10 AM	Less 4e, more 3.5.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-12-06, 03:27 AM	Less 3.5, more 3e.
Vloorshad 08-12-06, 04:55 AM	Less 3.5, more 3e. Less of both, more of 3.25. Let's face it, both versions improved on certain things. As for 4e, it doesn't make business sense. They've revamped everything and are cranking out new material. There doesn't seem to be much of anything that they can improve on or tweak to warrant a new system. 3.75 maybe, but not 4e.
OrbitalB 08-12-06, 05:05 AM	As for 4e, it doesn't make business sense. They've revamped everything and are cranking out new material. There doesn't seem to be much of anything that they can improve on or tweak to warrant a new system. 3.75 maybe, but not 4e. You've hit the nail square on the head with that one.
Lepitius 08-12-06, 05:55 AM	If 4 comes out someday and doesnt really make you go like "OH WOW THIS IS T00TALLY YBERLY THOUGHT GAME SYSTEM N S'COOL." then im still staying on 3.5
Dark Kyosuke 08-12-06, 07:36 AM	I almost wish these boards had a "sage" function, like 4chan, but since this is at the top, it wouldn't matter- Like most of the posts I "sage" at 4chan... ... Anyway, yeah. While I'm glad to hear that 4e isn't comming too soon, I'm forced to wonder why people are so up in arms about it. Firstly, there's no real reason for it: 3.5e is the most soundly-written, rules-wise, of all the editions to date. There may be a reprint or another "upgrade" in the near future, one that gets things like Swift Actions and Immediate Actions into the PHB (and possibly makes a few feats, such as Improved Toughness, core, HINT HINT...), but a whole new version? What would they put in it? Second, even if there is one in development, it'll be at least a whole year, if not longer, before it's in good shape to be released. As such, it couldn't be out before 2008 at this point. And that would be rushing. My guess? 2010, at least. If it's comming at all. And lastly? Unless I missed my guess, 3.X has been around for nearly ten years. That's nearly ten years of material, and a great deal of it is worth owning. There are some rather dedicated holdouts who still play 1e, and even, I'm sure, people who still play 2e (I can't fathom why- Having played 3.X, I'm never going back), so the likelyhood of 3e going the way of the dinosaur is pretty slim. In short... Yeah, people are going to discuss things, but I can't see worrying, one way or another, about 4e, regardless of what's been announced.
UmbralKnight 08-12-06, 07:44 AM	I'll sleep with my pitchfork beside me in any case.
Dolo 08-12-06, 08:52 AM	They have another 3 1/2 to 4 years before there maybe a new edition. Actually I see them trying to push it to around 5 to 6 years before the dreaded "4th Edition" comes out, depends on how D&D keeps selling.
Talmar 08-12-06, 09:40 AM	Why is everyone so 4e frenzied? Look at how long the other incarnations of d&d lasted! I don't think we'll see 3rd ed gone after only something like 5 or 6 years (that might not be accurate, someone know when it originally came out cuz I certainly don't). Well, the Products page lists "The Sunless Citadel" being released 8/2000 and I'm pretty sure that modules was released the same month as the PHB/DMG/MM. Also, If I remember correctly, 3e was "officially" announced at GenCon of '99. I believe there's been a new major version release about every 10 years. Following that trend 4e would be announced in '09 with an anticipated release of '10. Now if WotC get a bit squirelly then they could do an '08 announcement with an '09 release.. The current edition cannot last forever and be the "final" release of DnD. There will be a 4e. I'm almost 100% sure there will be a 5e as well. I certainly hope DnD lasts that long.
Shadowfane 08-12-06, 10:36 AM	As for 4e, it doesn't make business sense. They've revamped everything and are cranking out new material. There doesn't seem to be much of anything that they can improve on or tweak to warrant a new system. 3.75 maybe, but not 4e. When I look at the WOTC product catalog, I don't necessarily see really new material. I see compendiums of older material, Eberron almost has a book out for each region, and expansions for the systems that they released earlier. Tome of Dragon is mainly new Incarnum, Warlock Invocations, etc... that are based on Dragon Magic. This is cool but is not really new, just support for older released systems. Magic Item Compendium, I wonder if they are going to do one on feats and prestige classes Are they releasing new complete books, yes but technically you can see them as the following. Complete Mage = Complete Arcane 2 Complete Scoundrel = Complete Adventurer 2 Complete Champion = Complete Divine 2 (I think that this was the original title) What is the warrior sequel going to be called? I wonder if we are going to see complete books like complete dwarves, complete elves, or even complete drow elves, complete gray elves. With the release of Secrets of Sarlona, that leaves 1 continent ruled by dragons, and a couple of realms on or off the main continent without a book detailing it. In a way I hope they do release 4.0 soon, tired of carrying 70+ pounds of books around.
Zalaz Mavi 08-12-06, 11:09 AM	Kevin also mentioned that Wizards intends to utilize the history of the Brand more in future releases in both content and graphic treatment. I'm curious as to what this means. 1e updates with black and white Larry Elmore art? Or, are the sourcebooks going more toward the 2e look (old fashioned paint and canvas art) and away from the pseudo-graphic novel approach? It would be cool if someone dug more into this...
MadLetter 08-12-06, 07:03 PM	Maybe the "great announcement" (tm) will be the release of the second campaign-setting that won back in ages when Eberron placed first... would be sweet to see another world. As for a 4th Edition.. well.. I don`t think there will be one for the next two to four years. And if one is released, I guess I will play 3.5 with my beloved Eberron... :) Only thing to bring me INSTANTLY to 4th could be a supreme system, that shadows d20 into nothingness combined with a good portion of Eberron-Stuff ^^ My 2 coppers....
Stormonu 08-13-06, 01:21 AM	Most people can't concieve what would be improved in a new version until they actually see it in print before them. Back in the 2E days, I would have never concieved of feats and the thought of AC just going up would have never crossed my mind ("Then what would you use in place of THAC0???"). Anyway, I do see some areas that could use improvement in the game. Non-casters reliance on magic items (perhaps as higher-powered feats) could be one change, a stronger integrated skill system, defense bonus by level, a fully-functional magic point system could be four changes, that if done correctly would be well-recieved. Drop some of the Complete.. book classes in as core classes, transform the paladin in a 2nd-level PrC class...the list is endless what they COULD do in 4th edition. It's just if they don't do it right, they'll know in a hurry. As for when 4.0 come out, who cares? I haven't thoroughly worn out my 3.X books yet.
Vloorshad 08-13-06, 02:48 AM	Most people can't concieve what would be improved in a new version until they actually see it in print before them. Back in the 2E days, I would have never concieved of feats and the thought of AC just going up would have never crossed my mind ("Then what would you use in place of THAC0???"). The attack bonuses, AC, HP, and others can't really change much more. Look at the Final Fantasy series. What the characters in them do hasn't really changed much, but how they do it has. I suppose that's how 4e could come about, but what simpler way is there than rolling a d20 and adding your attack bonus to see if it meets or beats the AC? Anyway, I do see some areas that could use improvement in the game. Non-casters reliance on magic items (perhaps as higher-powered feats) could be one change, See PHBII for a start. Well within the abilities of the current edition. a stronger integrated skill system, Truenamer and Swordsage use skills extensively. This can be fixed on the skill side, though. 3.75 at best. defense bonus by level, See the Wheel of Time RPG, Star Wars d20, and Unearthed Arcana. a fully-functional magic point system could be four changes, that if done correctly would be well-recieved. See the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Drop some of the Complete.. book classes in as core classes, transform the paladin in a 2nd-level PrC class...the list is endless what they COULD do in 4th edition. It's just if they don't do it right, they'll know in a hurry. Or you could just include the Complete classes in the SRD and issue a FAQ declaring them Core. Along with Psionics, which should have been Core a long time ago. Release a special edition PHB or something. Something with software that can be updated to include all new classes, feats, PrCs, etc. Not a character generator, just an ever-growing encyclopedia. As for when 4.0 come out, who cares? I haven't thoroughly worn out my 3.X books yet. Some care more than others, but most feel 4e is unnecessary. I thought 2e could have been done much better before I saw 3.0.
Gallameed 08-13-06, 04:45 AM	Every edition of a RGP as popular and well supported as D&D becomes an epic level has-been dinosaur flailing around in its own **** and drowing in new additions to its original system eventually, thats the way things go, no worries, part of the parsel innit? So yeah 4th edition will probs be around soon, who cares? We dont HAVE to get it, just have fun, check it out and judge it when it arrives, unitl then calm down and enjoy what we have. From an outsiders point of view D&D 3.5 must look very hard to get into and understand, look at all the books out there, not to mention the 3rd edition/3.5 confusion for those not in the know. A ''reboot'' every few years is sensible. We could probaly do with a 4th edition soon. I hope they do away with the PHB, DMG and MM just have it all in one streamlined ''starter'' book this time. Hope character creation is a little more free and easy too and they give a better step by step introduction to things for those who have never gamed before. I remember when we first started out many years ago and we were like: Eh? what does d4 mean? Hit points vs Hit Die caused confusion too. I also seem to remember headaches caused by class level/character level, spell level vs caster level, too much use of the word level... Why couldnt they have said ''Fireball is a Power X spell and a level X wizard may cast it... or something like that instead. Simple little things like that would really help a group of total beginners out and wrap their heads around things faster. Getting into pen and paper roleplaying games for the first time is not fun when all you wanna do is get your story on the road and live out your character. The books are/were a bit unclear to our group at first. Heres hoping if and when 4th edition comes out its less confusing and allows more people to come to the game. Maybe even get rid of dice and have ''cards'' as a fate-deck instead, that sounds like a great idea! ;)
UmbralKnight 08-13-06, 05:08 AM	Maybe even get rid of dice :uh-huh:
Gallameed 08-13-06, 05:16 AM	:uh-huh: A joke my dear, in reference to the rather crap SAGA system or whatever rubbish they named it... :)
The_Black_Dragon 08-13-06, 05:27 PM	A joke my dear, in reference to the rather crap SAGA system or whatever rubbish they named it... :) Good. I was afraid that we might have to stone you. ;) 4e puts a strange effect on me. I don't want 4e, because then (unless we find out otherwise) my 3.X stuff is useless. However, 4e may be a good place to start anew. I have a lot of books that I don't need/use. If 4e comes out, I can start out the way I buy books now: after careful consideration.
Ranger REG 08-13-06, 07:17 PM	I remember when we first started out many years ago and we were like: Eh? what does d4 mean? Hit points vs Hit Die caused confusion too. :rolleye2: Oh, puh-lease! Apparently you have not been in the hobby long enough to remember THAC0, or that fact that AC improves when the number goes down instead of up. That's right, bonus -- that's a modifier with a plus (+) sign -- subtract from your base AC.
Tobus Neth 08-13-06, 08:30 PM	What's sad is there are people out there that just shelled out like 700.00 dollars on books and tommorrow they'll just throw them on a shelf. D&D without dice is like a gun without bullets. Lets pretend this will happen in like 2010. Me I'm done with purchasing all the same books under a new format. So three years from now you can buy Mysteries of the Moonsea and be like hey this all the stuff that was in 2e. Fools, save your money, buy a car, donate to a charity and let this Horse beat itself to death with it's endless overhauls and changes. Perhaps they'll just revamp 1edition again and all the modules will be hardcover source books beefed up with wilderness encounter tables and sold for 29.95 The miniature aspect will grow and become a juggernaut under the next system. Super highly detailed miniature figures are coming and with them super high prices.
Bob Loblaw 08-13-06, 09:11 PM	I haven't had the need to get rid of any of my older stuff. I have gotten rid of most of it because I don't need it, but I could just as easily kept it. There is a ton of useful information in those products. All the fluff is still good. Some of the crunch isn't totally wasted either. You can use a lot of the older products for inspiration for new races and classes. Take a look at what Paizo did with the Dragon Compendium. They didn't just ignore all of the 1st and 2nd edition stuff. They updated it for 3.5. There is no reason why you couldn't do the same.
Gallameed 08-13-06, 11:13 PM	:rolleye2: Oh, puh-lease! Apparently you have not been in the hobby long enough to remember THAC0, or that fact that AC improves when the number goes down instead of up. That's right, bonus -- that's a modifier with a plus (+) sign -- subtract from your base AC. Aww bless, how cute! :) *hands Ranger REG a zimmer frame*
DarkThoughts24 08-14-06, 07:10 AM	ya know I more3 expect 3.75, 3.90, 3.92, ad 3.95 before 4.0 the d20 system is a strong system that only end ups being retweaked. so before an serious changes toi warrant a real change, I see huge updates for minor revisions.
Soulmage 08-14-06, 02:25 PM	The seminars I attended they flat out said 4th edition was not in development, nor was it in the planning stages.
UmbralKnight 08-14-06, 02:34 PM	Me no like new edition. Me fear what no understand. Me want worth of monies out of fortunes spent on white pieces of tree with drawrings on them. Ugh. Me have shiny pitchfork. Me now how to use. Me have weapon focus.
Dr_Draco 08-14-06, 07:37 PM	Well, I personally find 3.X to be my favorite system. It's definitely leaps and bounds beyond what 2e was (though I certainly loved playing it at the time and thought 3e was just gonna be a pile of garbage). That said, if anything, I'd love for a 4e to do like 2e did: Be similar enough to the previous edition, so updating is simple and old material can be implanted without too much work. Also, if 4e were to be released, here's what I'd want: Keep the d20 system, the current class system. The biggest changes should be to how the classes gain their abilities and the LA/ECL system. Also, changes to a lot of spells, powers, and feats need to be made. Psionics in the PHB/DMG/MM Epic rules that are easier to figure out. Or just get rid of them altogether and have the classes continue to progress normally beyond 20th level. Modrons... In the MM :P More "choosable" abilities for the base classes (things like the ranger's combat style ability, the rogue's special abilities, and the monk's fighting styles variant from UA). Instead of fighters simply being a class with bonus feats every other level, introduce the Tactical and Weapon Style feat trees, as well as similiar progressions into the fighter class (this would go along with my "choosable" abilities thing) to be choosable at 1st level, and progress at certain levels. Also, give them a couple of good post level-10 abilities to make up for their weakness at higher levels. Redo the Soulknife and Sorcerer classes from the ground up. Have specialized wizards gain unique abilities to distinguish them further from other specialized wizards (and to make them as appealing as a standard wizard). Since psions are already specialists, give each type of psion something more unique than different skill sets. Use a magic point system for divine casters and spontaneous arcane casters. (Base it off of the current psionics system, not the craptacular UA one.) I see no problem with keeping the Wizard, Wu Jen, and similar classes with the slot system. Change the way ECL is determined to make having "savage" or "extraplanar" characters and campaigns more appealing. As it is now, anything higher than an ECL 2 is significantly weaker at higher levels (not counting the ECLs that put you at said higher levels to begin with). The LA buyoff system in UA is a start. However, I want something completely different for determining these kind of characters. ECL just doesn't cut it. I've got some more things I'd probably like implemented, but that would be the major stuff. What I want sounds more like a 3.75e as opposed to a 4e. But then again, 2e was kinda like 1.5e.
Improved_TPK 08-15-06, 04:46 AM	I agree with all of Dr_Draco's suggestions plus the following suggestions.: Purchasable skills for combat, instead of BAB. This way characters wouldn't automatically get better at melee combat when it doesn't match the character concept (wizard and sorcerers I'm looking at you). Furthermore characters wouldn't be so cookie cutter in practice. Imagine if characters purchased their ranks in Melee (unarmed attacks/touch attacks), Shoot (bow/xbow/sling/ranged touch attacks), Throw (spear/axe and the like), Grapple (bullrush/overbear), Dodge and Parry. Melee, Grapple and Parry would be Strength based combat ranks and Shoot, Throw and Dodge would be Dexterity based combat ranks. The various character classes could have varying combat rank points per level -- fighter would get lots, wizard would get few. Here's my recommened Combat Rank points per level by class recommendations: 6 Points: Fighter 5 Points: Barbarian, Monk 4 Points: Hexblade, Jedi (Psionic Warrior), Knight, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Samurai, Scout 3 Points: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Dragon Shaman, Duskblade, Spirit Shaman, Shugenja, Spellthief, War Mage, Wilder 2 Points: Beguiler, Sorcerer, Warlock, Zealot (Favored Soul) 1 Points: Psion, Wizard, Wu Jen The saving throws and spell casting ranks could be handled simliarly. Armor as damage reduction, not as hit avoidance, as the core mechanic. With a dodge and parry skill to avoid hits. A shield would apply to parry, not armor (damage reduction), while weapons would get parry bonuses based on weapon size (unarmed: -1, light: 0, one handed: +1, two handed: +2) and any weapon bonus. Critical hit and Critical failure rules for combat. Perhaps characters with multiple attacks per round could only potentially fumble on their last attack of the round. A 1 on any other attacks in the round would be an ordinary miss. This gets around the "fumble on a 1 with confirmed miss" rule issue of a fighter being probablistically more likely to fumble than a wizard, which is counterintuitive. Called shot system in combat. Basically, all of the above could be cribbed from RuneQuest. ;) Break up the current byzantine combat options into basic combat system plus advanced add-ons. This would greatly speed play for beginners and those players who don't particularly like the combat aspect of the game. Get rid of ridiculous fictional weapons like the gnome hooked hammer and orcish double axe and add in missing historical relevant weapons, like the estoc, sidesword, bill-guisarme and atlatl. In particular, bring back the missing polearms. Do the same for the armor types (where are my sweet Wisby Coat of Plates, Lamellar and Brigandine armors?). Tone down the armor check penalties a bit (halve them except for Jump and Swim). Well fitting armor worn by someone in shape (like a typical fighter) allows a wide range of movement and activities. Methinks the D&D creators need to go to an SCA event and do some field research. ;) More core ECL +0 races for PC's. Perhaps all the classic goblinoids (Orc, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Bugbear, Gnoll, Kobold) could have ECL+0 versions worked out and added to the list of player character races. Each player character race should have a coherent cultural background (nail down the gnome's cultural archtype, preferably getting rid of the favored class: bard) and no race should be mechanically lame (1/2 Elf, 1/2 Orc). Perhaps just get rid of the 1/2 whatever races entirely (sorry Elrond) Add character class archtypes for Alchemist, Cavalier, Tinker/Engineer, Spiritual Medium/Exorcist types. All class abilities should be in terms of feats and character classes should really be "manufacturer suggested feat chains for a given archtype". However, you should be able to build anything you want based on the feats available. This would allow D&D to be both Class and Classless based system! The prebuilt classes would provide comfortable archtypes, yet the free form feats would allow ultimate flexibility. More importantly, this would allow greater customization per archtype and allow various types of mages to not be carbon copies of each other. Imagine specialist caster differentiating feat chains. This would also let a fighter take a smattering of magic without totally selling out his melee skills by taking an N-level dip in another class, similarly for wizards wanting improved fighting skills. Get rid of the prestige classes. With flexible base classes, there is no need for prestige classes, and quite frankly the term "Prestige Class" is obnoxiously pretentious. Fix the class balance issues, particularly the CODzilla and Fighter levels are worthless after 12th level problems. There are plenty of threads to choose from regarding the fighter's decreasing contributions to the game which illustrate this issue. Give the Fighter something to do other than combat. More skills and skill points would be huge. Give the Sorcerer some flavor and I don't mean Dragonify them. There is too much emphisis on Dragons already in D&D, particularly in the past year, and it cheapens the Dragons to have every single piece of fluff and/or crunch to be Dragon this or Dragon That. Also, the Sorcerer needs to be on equal footing with the Wizard as a primary caster. Fix the sorcerer spell progression so they don't wait an extra character level before getting their spells of 2nd level and above. Also some class abilities would be nice. Unfrontload the tons of class abilities at first level classes a bit. This encourages 1 level dips which are not very flavorful from a Role playing POV. If low level survivability is an issue, add more racial abilities or regional feats to 1st level characters, or perhaps add a 1st level hit point kicker like Hackmaster does. Restore the Ranger to d10 hit dice and 4 skill points per level. The Scout is a much better fit as a wilderness rogue than the ranger, so the ranger doesn't need to be forced into that role. Also add a third combat style to the ranger of stoutly armored ranger (2nd level: Medium Armor Proficiency, 6th Level Heavy Armor Proficiency, 11th level: Tower Shield Proficiency) as a shout out to the 1st edition old school "tank who can track" style of ranger. While each of the character classes currently has a particular spellcasting system implicitly associated with it, there's no reason for a particular class to be married to a particular casting system. If the rules supported multiple casting systems, and those systems were balanced, we could optionally swap the default casting system with any of the other casting systems. You could have Vancian spell slots, spontaneous spell slots, spellpoints/mana casting (psionics style) avaiable as feat chains to use for a particular character class, but that exact system used could be pulled in as a feat chain at character creation. For example, the wizard would be a recommended build using Vancian casting of arcane spells, but a particular campaign could use psionic style spell points instead. Additional magic systems could be some sort of learn/practice/percentage chance of success (Harry Potter style), bargained power received from extraplanar beings (Elric & Arioch style), character hosts spirit from beyond as source of power, previously prepped spell components quickened with power at time of casting (Charmed style), mana based casting with fatique style (RuneQuest style) or whatever. Add rules for cooperative casting/manifesting. Many fantasy stories have multiple characters participating in spellcasting. Perhaps additional characters make a spell more powerful, but increase casting time. With a spell point system, cooperative casting could be implemented by lesser spell costs per caster, but greater total spell costs per spell. Lessen the need for characters to have so much equipment to survive, particularly melee classes. Characters should have intrinsic skills great enough to overcome challenges without being monty haulled pack mules. Because BAB scales with level but base AC does not, defensive equipment is required for success. Defensive abilities which scale with level like the offensive abilities do would greatly fix the naked fighter is screwed problem. Fix Polymorph, Fabricate and all the other notoriously troublesome spells! Don't be afraid to adjust spells as needed to make them more balanced by level. Give us NPC backgrounds for all NPC character associated spells. We want to know who Tenser, Bigby, Mordenkainen and the rest of the Circle of Eight are as well as their Forgotten Realm's counterparts. Conversely, how about some NPC named spells for Fistandantilus, Magius, Raistlin, Dalamar, Palin and Ladonna in the Dragonlance world? Put a wound point system in the core rules which could optionally be used instead of the abstract hit point system -- see True 20 for an example of a good one. Add action points/drama points to the core mechanic. See Unisystem for a good example of this in practice. Steal the skills from the True 20 system and replace the D20 skill system wholesale with the True 20 skill system. The True 20 skill system solves alot of problems, such as divided observation skills vs divided stealth skills i.e. Spot/Listen vs Hide/Move Silently greatly favors observers to the point that sneaking is not a viable tactic at high levels. The True 20 Notice vs. Stealth is much more balanced probabalistically. Some skills in D20 are not associated with the most logical ability score, e.g. Concentration (Con) and the True 20 skill system rectifies this. Also, some D20 skills are a bit too narrow in focus, e.g. Use Rope, Open Lock, and should be combined with other skills. Finally the True 20 skill system has additional skills for activities which are not covered by the D20 skill system and should be; Adding Drive and Pilot skills would give us rules for Driving a Chariot or Piloting a Ship, both of which are germane to the D&D setting. On that note, put Chariot and Ship based combat in the core rules! And here's a heretical idea: move the concentration and willpower concepts (and saving throw) to Charisma and rename Wisdom to Perception to reflect the change in emphisis. All other Wisdom based skills, abilities and spell related effects would remain the same. Add a new Perception based skill called Insight which could be used to confer hints to the players as they get stumped with problems. Insight would also be used for spell research checks. This would be less annoying to the players than just blurting out the answer when you, the DM, think they are stuck since a player would have to initiate an Insight check (i.e. ask for a hint). In practice the Insight skill could be handled alot like the Diplomacy skill, either solely as an aspect of the player's decisions and actions, or as a plain dice mechanic. Combine UMD/Spellcraft (arcane), UMD/Spellcraft (divine) and UPD/Psicraft and have a single skill per magic/psionic type. Perhaps Wizardry (Int), Spirituality (Per), and Mysticism (Cha). These skills would be used for any sort of casting check related to Arcane, Divine or Psionic magic/power respectively. A neat side effect to this is with Knowledge (Arcane/Religion/Psionics) as an Intelligence skill, Insight (used for spell research) as a Perception skill and Concentration as a Charisma skill, all magic/psionic characters would be automatically strong at one of the three since its associated ability score would match their casting stat. However, mage/mystic type characters couldn't nerf their other mental stats without trashing some other part of their spellcasting abilities. Just like the melee types really need to be not sucky at all the physical stats, the magical types would need to not suck at all the mental stats. Yes, this is a little bit MAD (multiple ability dependent), but otherwise primary casters don't really have to spread out the ability score wealth as much as melee types do. This would also help balance the casters vs. the melee classes a bit. Allow feats for binding certain skills to alternative ability scores, e.g. Intimidate (Str), Disable Device (Dex), Concentration (Cha). This too can be stolen from the True 20 system. Of course this leaves no Constitution based skills, but the special rules for disease, parasites, holding ones breath, fatigue and exhaustion could be adapted to be Constitution based skill checks using skills of Health (Disease, Parasites) and Fitness (Hold Breath, Fatigue, Exhaustion). Put in some sort of social conflict mechanic for resolving social skill combat. There's a start to this in the Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff, Sense Motive skill checks, but it's a bit loose in implementation. And finally, explain why certain rules are the way they are (i.e. why the designers did certain things the way they did) in the DMG and put more rules in place to grow the system, like the class and race design bits in the DMG. I appologize if this posting is a bit incoherent or preachy, but I really like modifying game systems and occationally get a bit excited to have an audience. ;)
SquirrelMortis 08-15-06, 04:16 PM	I don't think Wotc will be doing 4e anytime soon. It will make alot of their products worthless. Then it won't sell. And if doesn't sell Wotc won't make as much money. And we know that ever company wants money (don'y deny it ;) ). Anyway, a typical D&D book costs about 30-40$. So if I were to posses some 9 or 10 sourcebooks, think of how much of my money would be wasted if I were to purchase 4e (which I pretty much would have to, If everyone one this board was yammering on about it ;) ).
Yunt 08-16-06, 06:17 PM	Make it easier to get started maybe? I feel like I've barely played but I'm the most experienced in my group and by default the DM. Just the expense of having to get the 3 core books, plus a campaign setting (unless you're a *really* ambitious newbie and writer) before you can play is a bit steep. Spell points as a "core variant" would be nice. Psionics should really be considered a 4th core book by now. As much OGL psionics as already exists it seems like an artifical and silly line to draw even if some (or even most) DMs opt not to use it. Mechanics like Truenaming, Incarnum, Binding or even the not-quite-normal "Casts Per Mystery Per Day" of the Shadowcaster should be represented in the core and expanded on, not the tacked-on semi-orphans that such variants can wind up being. I guess, in short, I would like to see all the mechanical stuff folded into the core. Extras should consist of new spells, classes, feats, abilities, monsters, templates and equipment but as much as I like them, new mechanics should be reserved for new editions. All of this being "core" also brings the added benefit of making it easier for those of us who are so inclined to make or update character generators which cover all the bases. As good as your product might be, the lack of WoTC released and maintained datasets and the surprise inclusion of a brand new mechanic every couple of books will keep it from ever being truly up to date. We are, more and more, using laptops and desktops to run our games and create our characters and the official support should reflect this fact. Even as is, in 3.5 there's already a significant advantage to building my BBEG in a character generator which will enforce my skill point restrictions and the other various tweaky bits allowing me to take 5 minutes to build an obscure templated monstrosity that takes half an hour to put down on paper.
Futuredevguy 08-16-06, 07:20 PM	Back in 2000 or 2001 Wizards released a press release about how Hasbro was not going to kill the product line, and the whole budget for the RPG industry was just a single line item on another departments budget tally. In that press release they also stated that Hasbro had decided to apply the business model they use for all the rest of their successful toy lines. (think barbies, action figures, board games etc) That model is: (Loosely) Stage 1: Release a product Stage 2: Hype the product - (Make it the must have for the season) Stage 3: Release accesories for the base product Stage 4: Revamp the product slightly - (don't want to customer to lose brand recognition) Stage 5: Repeat from stage 2 I thought this was a bunch of bunk at the time (3rd ED was just released 1 or 2 years prior, there were a lot of supplemental books out), then they released 3.5 ED. So according to their own stated model we are in stage 3 getting ready to go to stage 4. As to a 4th ED, I could see a Class-less or level-less sytem being introduced. Or Getting rid of Hit points and introducing a "Damage" or "Toughness" saving throw introduced in it's place. Damage bonus from magic and weapons and high stats are just added to a base d20 throw. Or A completly point buy character where everything from attributes to saves to BAB to skill and feats to special features (like casting magic,sneak attacks, special mount (anything that is currently a class feature). The DM would choose the Power level of the game and the points allowed/given to build a character/special item are based on that level. Wizards business partner Green Ronin use this very system in their hugly popular Mutants and Masterminds game system and Wizards has announced in the past few months their own release of a d20 based Super Hero game - (I could see where this product line could be a test bed for concepts to be introduced product line wide in a 4th ED) But again this is just my 2 coppers
trapdoor alligator 08-16-06, 08:04 PM	Me no like new edition. Me fear what no understand. Me want worth of monies out of fortunes spent on white pieces of tree with drawrings on them. Ugh. Me have shiny pitchfork. Me now how to use. Me have weapon focus. Ha. +1 Funny
OravennasBrother 08-17-06, 11:41 AM	Back in 2000 or 2001 Wizards released a press release In that press release they also stated that Hasbro had decided to apply the business model they use for all the rest of their successful toy lines. That model is: (Loosely) Stage 1: Release a product Stage 2: Hype the product - (Make it the must have for the season) Stage 3: Release accesories for the base product Stage 4: Revamp the product slightly - (don't want to customer to lose brand recognition) Stage 5: Repeat from stage 2 And if you combine this with (if accurate) a quote which denies ONLY that the developement of 4th will be exclusively minicentric, then a conclusion that 4th IS in the works does not seem unreasonable. 3.5 has lasted about as long as 3.0 did, and has released a lot of supplements. But lets look deeper - many of the supplements sold fairly well, some did not. Now if they continue to produce NEW supplements they will have to "guestimate" whether they will do well - and the misguesses cost money. But if instead they go to a 4th edition then they can re-release the successful 3rd edition supplements (as 3rd AND 3.5 did with 2nd, though that well is pretty dry) and do less guessing and more selling. Welcome to the world of Marketting.
fil kearney 08-17-06, 08:47 PM	I agree with all of Dr_Draco's suggestions plus the following suggestions.: snip phew! tha was a mouthful! I've responded here.... STUPID ARGUEMENT THREAD (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9865642&postcount=125)
Ranger REG 08-18-06, 02:39 AM	And lastly? Unless I missed my guess, 3.X has been around for nearly ten years. Hehehe. And you wonder why people hate Heat Index and Wind Chill Factor in weather forecast news. You might feel or think 3e has been around for ten years, but we only reached Year 6 (Third Edition D&D PHB released August 2000). 3.5e didn't came out in Year 5, but Year 3 (July 2003). I cannot believe what is going on with my beloved D&D fan community. :nonono:
DarkLiChNeaZur 08-18-06, 01:55 PM	aww man please tell me this is a joke..... i love the 3.5 system, like it, know it, and use it. having just gotten into D&D 2 years ago when i was 12 makes me feel like buying all these books and supplies really wasted my money..... dang this is depressing me, wheres my zoloft... jk but it is, 4th edition, with forced minis, i like playing with minis just because we have some unimaginative people in my group who would bend rules if there wasent a physical part to the game but, a whole new system.... re-learning everying thing that im just starting to get good at...DAGNABBIT!! this really makes me a little ****** at wotc, ive heard stories about people who got stuck in 3rd ed. and it sounds like alot of them are like in the dark ages of D&D, i dunno how often the game updates but obvously not too often if its been out since 1979 and were just on 3.5 ..... dang
fil kearney 08-18-06, 04:20 PM	As a business, it is only natural that WotC will update the system to perpetuate interest and new sales. valid system revisions are only a part of the logic. If profits dive too much, this foum itself will b erased. embrace the changes after all protests have failed. and back up the threads you like.
Ranger REG 08-18-06, 07:31 PM	As a business, it is only natural that WotC will update the system to perpetuate interest and new sales. But whose interests are they perpetuating?
Splendide 08-18-06, 08:34 PM	My 4.0 Gnome * –2 Strength. * Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. * Gnome base land speed is 20 feet. * Low-Light Vision: A gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. * Arcane Familiarity: Due to their exceptional familiarity with magic, gnomes are considered to have +1 caster level when determining the effects of their arcane spells. * Tunnelfighting: Gnomes receive no penalties for making ranged attacks into melee combat. This ability is the equivalent of the Precise Shot feat when considering prerequisites for other feats or classes. Gnomes are accustomed to fighting in tight spaces and have exceptional spatial awareness. * +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too. * +2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks. Gnomes have very keen senses. * Burrowtalk: Gnomes may communicate with burrowing mammals (badgers, foxes, rabbits or the like) with an Indifferent or better disposition, to a maximum level of communication as indicated in the speak with animals spell description. Also, gnomes with the wild empathy special ability gain a +2 bonus when dealing with burrowing mammals. * +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Sense Motive checks. Friendly relations with numerous cultures and races have taught the gnomes an the finer points of communication. * Automatic Languages: Common, Gnome. Bonus Languages: Any. * Spell-Like Abilities: A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level. * Favored Class: Bard. A multiclass gnome’s bard class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty.
ArchMage0271 08-18-06, 09:57 PM	I just do not get into any of the hype about the possible 4e existence... I mean I have hundreads of dollars worth of 3.0 and 3.5 books.... To say that there is a possible 4.0 release coming means if I do not buy the new books I am behind in the game... Like owning 2.0 and never buying 3.0.... Really all the talk about a 4.0 is giving me a headache.... I think WOTC should not produce a 4.0, I also think it is a money game as it is cause of the screw ups in the books and the updates.... To be honest give this 4.0 stuff a break and enjoy the 3.5 books you have.... If 4.0 is on the menu any time soon then I am sure it will be just like 3.5... (reguire updates and playtesting) 2e was out for almost 12-14 years before 3.0 came along in 2000.... Why not use these forums to get info on the current game and stop ranting about a 4th edition that no one but WOTC has actuall eveidence for?
Fion81 08-18-06, 09:57 PM	This is not good... :mad: 4e in 2008? If this is true, those of us who do not want to see this come to pass must strike out in fear and in ignorance like any worthy mob! Let the pitchforks be raised and may the witch burnings begin! Different strokes for different folks. Id welcome a 4th edition glady. Considering what an immense improvement 3rd was over 2nd, the idea of another such improvement makes me happy as hell.
Maythor 08-18-06, 10:31 PM	You can have my dice, when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers. :fight!: :OMG!