Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jager Mage 07-15-05, 01:26 AM	Ok, so, we're playing a homebrew campaign. Now, the 6-7 people we play with are all one of two types of people: power gamers or playing characters tooled by power gamers. Now, I know a lot of you hate power gamers, but bear with me. To account for the high number of people in the party as well as the amount of cheese we bring, the DM runs us against significantly higher level stuff. We took on a CR 12 at 4th lvl. And won. Hands down. We just finished running a game. Everything in the room save the dire wolf had class lvls on top of their monster HD. The list: 4 CR 9s, 1 CR 18. 1 CR 19. 1 CR 20. 1 CR 21. 1 CR 22. 2 CR 23s. The fight lasted 6 rounds, with only one PC dropping to significantly lower than half HP. My character is a half-giant barbarian/champion of gwenharwif. I have a ECL +1. I am a 12th lvl character. The rest of the party is 13. Or was. Until the end of that fight. When we all gained enough XP to hit 18 (17 for me.) We did not scale down the XP as we instantly lvled up as that would be silly. We defeated the encounters as lvl 13 characters, we lvl 13 characters XP. And there was no bonus XP handed out. We wanted a challenging fight. We got one, sort of. Had we not had time to buff we would have died. A lot. But the cleric wins. And no, the DM didn't expect the fight to go that way. He added some stuff on the fly when we decimated the CR 23s in the surprise round. It was brutal.
Rntaboy 07-15-05, 01:31 AM	You, your friends, and your DM obviously have no real understanding of how Dungeons and Dragons works. There is no way, other than having a completely inept DM, that you could have a single CR 20 encounter, let alone "4 CR 9s, 1 CR 18. 1 CR 19. 1 CR 20. 1 CR 21. 1 CR 22. 2 CR 23s". Take up a less complicated game, like checkers.
Wookie1120 07-15-05, 02:15 AM	You, your friends, and your DM obviously have no real understanding of how Dungeons and Dragons works. There is no way, other than having a completely inept DM, that you could have a single CR 20 encounter, let alone "4 CR 9s, 1 CR 18. 1 CR 19. 1 CR 20. 1 CR 21. 1 CR 22. 2 CR 23s". Take up a less complicated game, like checkers. Now, I may not totally agree with everything in Jager's groups play style, but, this comment seems out of line. It's a game, as long as they're enjoying playing it, then it's being played right. This kind of judgementalness is not the kind of community that I think anyone here appreciates.
Colmarr 07-15-05, 02:20 AM	While I agree with and echo Wookie's comment, I must say that there doesn't seem to be a point to the opening post. And given that they are obviously unaware that it's impossible to gain more than one level per encounter, there is probably some truth to Rntaboy's suggestions that the game in question is not run using the normal D&D rules.
Wookie1120 07-15-05, 02:27 AM	I likewise don't understand the point of the post. Trying to spread the glory of power gamers? It's good for some people. I'm more of a roleplayer myself, all about character development over combat. But occassionally an insane combat is fun. Very good for stress relief. Once ran a campaign where we had a bunch of evil characters infiltrate Mithral Hall and kill off Drizzt and the bunch(that was an intense combat). that was kinda fun and good stress relief. But now I'm just rambling, so I'll shut up and go to bed for the night.
IceFractal 07-15-05, 02:37 AM	The monsters probably weren't played smart enough. Unless they were all brute-force types, a CR 20+ spellcaster should have been able to defeat the group before they even encountered them. Scry-and-die, people, scry-and-die. However, to say that they're playing "wrong" is stupid. If they're enjoying it then they're not playing wrong. Later on they might want to run things a bit more by the book, but that's up to the group. Also, I've never agreed with the "one level only" rule. If you defeat a much tougher challenge, you should be rewarded for it, not told "you only get the reward for a much weaker challenge for some reason". Now if levelling up that quickly seems unrealistic, you can use a hybrid system. Let the characters level-up once, and then put the rest of their XP into "storage". Whenever they get new XP, they get an equal amount of stored XP until it's all gone. This means that they will not level up a ton immediately, but they will definitely gain a benefit from taking on a tougher challenge. If their stored XP starts getting backlogged, with more coming in than going out, then increase the dispersal rate.
Zorminster 07-15-05, 07:34 AM	icefractal- i like that idea alot. thats basically how world of warcraft did its rest bonus- it gives you an exp storage and until thats depleted, you get 2x xp per kill- now, this couldnt be direct ported to dnd but a similar method could. I found that it worked VERY well for WoW and could apply to dnd just as well. Perhaps instead of doubling your encounter xp though use the xp pool to award roleplaying?
DragonDeadite 07-15-05, 10:24 AM	One level per ecnounter does not mean you loose the XP. It just means that you level up at the end of the session to the next level, and after the session after that you level up again, then again at the end of the following session, all the while continuing to gain XP at the level you're truly at. Of course... with that kind of a scenerio, I as a DM would have just done it as a TPK and been done with it, but I wasn't DMing that game, now was I? Hey Jager, how many Ring of Wishes does your group have? :rolleyes:
Steel Cobra 07-15-05, 10:28 AM	did the DM forget monster tatics or special abilites? cause I used to do that then when I started it made the game a bit harder the PCs complained for a bit and now they are glad that I did cause its just too easy if you dont
Jager Mage 07-15-05, 10:44 AM	You, your friends, and your DM obviously have no real understanding of how Dungeons and Dragons works. There is no way, other than having a completely inept DM, that you could have a single CR 20 encounter, let alone "4 CR 9s, 1 CR 18. 1 CR 19. 1 CR 20. 1 CR 21. 1 CR 22. 2 CR 23s". Take up a less complicated game, like checkers. First of all, don't tell me how to play my game. There isn't a person in my group of players that didn't have a 3.5 gpa or higher in honors classes in college, so we don't need to take up a less complicated game. Our DM isn't inept. We are trying to go from lvl 2 to lvl 30 in 4 months, so we fight high CR encounters intentionally to lvl quickly and advance. And as I said before, we have SEVEN people, all power gamers or playing characters built by power gamers. So don't talk down to me just because we enjoy a little power gaming and cheese. Moving on. The reason the fight went as easily as it did: 1. We were standing outside a door where all the monsters were having a meeting. There was a war troll, 4 hobgoblins, 3 Cloud Giants, 2 stone giants, and a half-giant. All with character lvls. The druid wild shaped into a tiny creature and stuck his head under the door to get an idea as to what was going on in the room. They didn't know we were there. We knew what was there, and how many there were. We had plenty of time to buff. We were only running with 6 characters at the moment, but we had: Me, the half-giant barbarian, champion of gwenharwif, the human fighter/obi, the cleric, the swashbuckler/duelist, the warmage/incantatrix, and the druid/daggerspell shaper. We were fairly beefy. The cleric hit us with every buffing spell he had, which gave us (and no, i don't know what spells he used) a +11 to hit, +15 to our saves, DR 10/magic, SR 25, and 37 extra hit points. With a couple of other minor but useful little buffs by individuals we were ready. The druid wildshaped into a a dinosaur of some sort, and the cleric, who was built as a cavalry charger type, rode him. With the lance. The magic lance. The door got kicked open, and the warmage/incantatrix double wielding wands of fireball and I think scorching ray nuked the cloud giant king and the war troll and the hobgoblins. The cleric charged in and lanced the cloud giant king, and the swashbuckler got the final blow in. The entire combat lasted 5 rounds, with no spellcasters on their side, and surprise on ours. The DM threw us up against such high CRs because we were supposed to run in, maybe kill one, and then retreat. It was supposed to be a guerrilla warfare style battle. Instead it was a blitzkreig. There was really no point in the first post other than to share what was a climactic battle and a lot of fun with the community of gamers. We don't do this often, and we are roleplaying our characters. For example, my barbarian is teaching the children of the town we started how to read. Yes, the barbarian is teaching kids how to read. He loves them. I personally hate kids, but the barbarian likes em. I just thought it would be an interesting and fun tale to tell. As far as the no more than one level at a time, my DM agrees with the school of thought that if you defeat a significantly higher CR creature, you get all of the requisite XP, and if you level more than once, ok, you've earned it.
Jager Mage 07-15-05, 10:50 AM	One level per ecnounter does not mean you loose the XP. It just means that you level up at the end of the session to the next level, and after the session after that you level up again, then again at the end of the following session, all the while continuing to gain XP at the level you're truly at. Of course... with that kind of a scenerio, I as a DM would have just done it as a TPK and been done with it, but I wasn't DMing that game, now was I? Hey Jager, how many Ring of Wishes does your group have? :rolleyes: none...just 3 military buff players with good strategy...with good planning and several rounds to buff, anything can be accomplished.
rbrt_Spade 07-15-05, 10:50 AM	dont you know if you have a lot of ex to gain lots of levels you just gain 1 level + you put yourself at half the ex to the next level-in dmg ex tables
Illion the Red 07-15-05, 10:58 AM	The reason the fight went as easily as it did: 1. We were standing outside a door where all the monsters were having a meeting. There was a war troll, 4 hobgoblins, 3 Cloud Giants, 2 stone giants, and a half-giant. All with character lvls. The druid wild shaped into a tiny creature and stuck his head under the door to get an idea as to what was going on in the room. They didn't know we were there. We knew what was there, and how many there were. We had plenty of time to buff. We were only running with 6 characters at the moment, but we had: Me, the half-giant barbarian, champion of gwenharwif, the human fighter/obi, the cleric, the swashbuckler/duelist, the warmage/incantatrix, and the druid/daggerspell shaper. We were fairly beefy. The cleric hit us with every buffing spell he had, which gave us (and no, i don't know what spells he used) a +11 to hit, +15 to our saves, DR 10/magic, SR 25, and 37 extra hit points. With a couple of other minor but useful little buffs by individuals we were ready. The druid wildshaped into a a dinosaur of some sort, and the cleric, who was built as a cavalry charger type, rode him. With the lance. The magic lance. The door got kicked open, and the warmage/incantatrix double wielding wands of fireball and I think scorching ray nuked the cloud giant king and the war troll and the hobgoblins. The cleric charged in and lanced the cloud giant king, and the swashbuckler got the final blow in. The entire combat lasted 5 rounds, with no spellcasters on their side, and surprise on ours. The DM threw us up against such high CRs because we were supposed to run in, maybe kill one, and then retreat. It was supposed to be a guerrilla warfare style battle. Instead it was a blitzkreig. The cleric cast a ton of spells with verbal components on the other side of a door that was easily bashed in and NONE of the well-experienced monsters/characters on the other side of the door heard it? There is no way the party should have had surprise. Of course, that's just my opinion. It also seems that if these monsters were so well experienced with CRs over 20, they should have had a simple anti-magc field available to cancel all of your buffs, especially since they had "no spellcasters on their side." It's clear (to me in my muddled mind at least) that this encounter was tailored to allow for a PC victory against higher CRs than they should have been able to survive. So, what are you going to do once you reach 30?
the artful dodger 07-15-05, 11:20 AM	double wielding wands I don't think that can be done. Not normally anyway, and iirc not with warmage or incantatrix levels either.
Man in the Funny Hat 07-15-05, 12:15 PM	The list: 4 CR 9s, 1 CR 18. 1 CR 19. 1 CR 20. 1 CR 21. 1 CR 22. 2 CR 23s. The fight lasted 6 rounds, with only one PC dropping to significantly lower than half HP. My character is a half-giant barbarian/champion of gwenharwif. I have a ECL +1. I am a 12th lvl character. The rest of the party is 13. Or was. Until the end of that fight. When we all gained enough XP to hit 18 (17 for me.)Well, good on ya I guess. You're having fun so, keep up the good work. However, by the rules I'm not at all convinced that what you're doing ought to be possible, powergamers or not. I'd suspect that your characters are highly over-equipped, that the DM is setting overly favorable circumstances for the encounter, that you ARE misapplying or overlooking a variety of rules, and that the monsters aren't being run as effectively as they ought to be. At the very least it's clear you're entirely bypassing PH rules and DMG guidelines regarding the awarding of XP, advancing in levels, and the actual challenges being faced by PC's. You know the ones where it indicates that regardless of CR's the xp awards should be adjusted according to the level of ACTUAL challenge that is designed into the encounter - like having all the time in the world to buff, having the opponents dead-to-rights, and having PC's that are already so shockingly imbalanced that they can take on 7 creatures that are 7-8 CR over their own level (when by RAW they should be dying if they're facing only 4+ CR over their level.) Or the notes that indicate that the charts don't even go as high as CR's that are 8 above the PC's levels because if that's actually happening somethings VERY strange and the situation needs to be looked at individually, not just having numbers taken off the charts. And of course the PH rule that states that PC's only advance 1 level at a time, and if they earn XP that would otherwise put them over more than one level their XP gain is capped at 1XP below that next level and the remaining XP are LOST. Or the suggestion that if faster advancement is desired that the DM simply add 10%, 30%, 50% or whatever to the XP totals that the PC's would otherwise obtain. Even having noted all of that I wouldn't exactly call "5 levels in 30 seconds" mere powergaming, and it's a little beyond "cheese" too. I'd call it "beyond the pale". Your game is simply out of the bounds of typical experience with the game as the rest of us play it. "Powergaming" implies that not only are the PC's "overpowered" for their level but the monsters are too - thus, rather than facing monsters 8 and 10 CR's higher the PC's are STILL facing roughly equal level CR's or perhaps just a LITTLE bit higher. Not that there's even ONE reason that you need to conform to a more common idea of how to play the game, but your post is... kinda suggestive that we ought to simply accept it at face value. That's a bit much to ask given the rather astonishing gap between your game experiences and Rules As Written. Naturally the responses you're going to get aren't going to be, "Hey! What fun!", but "What the heck are you guys DOING?"
Zherog 07-15-05, 12:24 PM	I don't think that can be done. Not normally anyway, and iirc not with warmage or incantatrix levels either. There's a feat in Complete Arcane that allows exactly this. There's also a prestige class in Sharn: City of Towers for this - though the feat is significantly better.
SweeneyTodd 07-15-05, 01:04 PM	Hey Jager, I want to hear more about this campaign. It sounds so over the top that it's pretty entertaining to read about. How many sessions have you played? How many levels do you usually get a session? (There's a question I've never asked before! :D ) I mean, we know you're not playing by the rules as written, for some reasons mentioned above, and because, well, CR only applies to an encounter as a whole (so that whole encounter was probably one CR 26, counting everything in the room). But rather than hassle you about that, it'd be interesting to hear about the other house rules you folks are using.
weasel fierce 07-15-05, 01:27 PM	Goes to prove that the CR system is indeed junk :) But sounds like a fun fight to play out, and well, thats what we're all here for. Fun
J Milburn 07-15-05, 01:32 PM	I like the stored experiance idea- You are not going to gain that much experiance, realistically, in a single fight. However, later you may think back to things in that fight and then you would learn a little more about it, thus gaining experiance. And why was the OP posted anyways?
The Axeman 07-15-05, 02:01 PM	You need to go back and learn about CRs, EL, and ECLs. Also, you might want to have your DM try reading the Dungeon Masters guide.
Jager Mage 07-15-05, 03:32 PM	The cleric cast a ton of spells with verbal components on the other side of a door that was easily bashed in and NONE of the well-experienced monsters/characters on the other side of the door heard it? There is no way the party should have had surprise. Of course, that's just my opinion. It also seems that if these monsters were so well experienced with CRs over 20, they should have had a simple anti-magc field available to cancel all of your buffs, especially since they had "no spellcasters on their side." It's clear (to me in my muddled mind at least) that this encounter was tailored to allow for a PC victory against higher CRs than they should have been able to survive. So, what are you going to do once you reach 30? Kill gods...maybe. The cleric cast the buff spells before the door was opened, though I understand that the way I said that may have been confusing. And I would really appreciate it if people would stop telling me that I and my DM need to read the PHB/DMG. We have between us 13 years of DnD experience, both own and have read core books and several of the supplememts for 3.5. I will admit, that fight should not have happened, and that if it did we should not have survived, and we did, we should not have won. But the DM did run the monsters fairly intelligently, and tried his best to beat. All the stats we were given were told to us by the cleric, so if anyone cheesed too much, it's him. But I doubt it, since everytime I call him on something or double check it, he's always right, and always honest. We beat it, and we gained the XP. As I've said going on THREE TIMES now, none of agree with the level gaining rules in the DMG. So the DM exercised Rule 0. I merely wanted to share this amazing and yes, I will agree, fairly unbelievable story, with the gaming community. Yes we beat it, and beat it badly. But we did have 2 near character deaths, including myself who dropped to -6 HP before the fight was over. It was easy, but it was a resounding defeat. If you don't like it, please stop accusing me and my friends of being incompetent or illiterate or cheaters. We are none of the above. We do believe in tactics, and yes, we do powergame. And for the record, all the baddies were at max HP, just like us.
klyre 07-15-05, 03:43 PM	* KLyre decides not to debate how much a 3.5 gpa means about intelligence.
Fargren 07-15-05, 03:49 PM	Oh come on. I once seens a level one party with 6 PC kill 70 orcs without sleeping. And they only got hit once(the orcs werent tgether, they fought in groups of 4-7)
Illion the Red 07-15-05, 03:51 PM	Kill gods...maybe. The cleric cast the buff spells before the door was opened, though I understand that the way I said that may have been confusing. So this is really just for fun? Then hey, I hope it was as much fun for the rest of your group as it sounds to have been for you. I would have never allowed the encounter to happen in that way in a normal campaign, but this clearly is not a normal campaign. Have fun with the HECATONCHEIRES once you are done with the gods...
Illion the Red 07-15-05, 03:52 PM	(the orcs werent tgether, they fought in groups of 4-7) ...and that's why the PCs didn't get hurt.
IceFractal 07-15-05, 04:05 PM	Actually, now that you mention it was all melee-based foes, it makes a lot more sense. A party with suitable time to prepare can win against melee-based foes of a much higher CR than normal. If you go up against spellcasters, or foes using their wealth to their best advantage, then you'll have a tougher time. Deities are going to be hard though, you'll need some way to become totally unscryable and unknowable, or else a deity with the "Hand of Life and Death" SDA will just kill you with no save, no SR, no chance. Also, the greater deities have abilities that make them auto-succeed at a lot of things, and most of them have a wide variety of magical powers. Bottom line: even the Hulking Hurler, who can do enough damage to destroy the world in one shot, would have trouble defeating all the deities. Now a party consisting of The Wish, The Word, The H.I.V.E, a Hulking Hurler, and a Nanobot Controller could have a very good chance at defeating the gods. Or anything else they wanted. But I assume your party is not quite that optimized. ;)
Capt. Pixel 07-15-05, 04:13 PM	none...just 3 military buff players with good strategy...with good planning and several rounds to buff, anything can be accomplished. This is the gods honest truth. I've seen it repeatedly on both sides of the screen. When I pull out the stops on my monsters and play them to their full capacity with a mere surprise round, I can TPK without even working up a sweat. When the Players do the same and have the benefit of a surprise round, the opposite is true. I don't believe that there's any problem with the CR method of balancing encounters, but the surprise round can make a substantial difference in the outcome. I've also noticed that as the game rises in encounter levels, that one round becomes even more critical. If I had to put a number to it, I'd estimate that one side having the advantage of surprise can effectively elevate their CR (or ECL) by ~50% or more. Given that assumption, a 10th level party with surprise should be able to handle a single encounter against a CR 18-20 by expending their entire store of 'resources'. As was once pointed out by one of my players - "It really boils down to a hit point race. Can I do more damage to him than they can do to me?" When the ability to attack succesfully begins to overcome the ability to generate a high AC (somewhere around the 'teen' levels), the hit point race observation really becomes obvious. Add to that good tactics, high magic, planning, teamwork and no small amount of luck, and anything can be accomplished :teach: Taking these items into account, though, I would not award full XP to the party. If it was that easy for them to defeat the encounter, then the encounter wasn't challenging enough and not worth a full XP award. :twocents: :cool:
Jager Mage 07-15-05, 04:57 PM	::THIS POST WAS WRITTEN BY MY DM, NOT ME. HE DOESN'T HAVE AN ACCOUNT AND RARELY READS THE BOARDS, SO HE POSTED ON MY ACCOUNT:: thank you all for bashing and/or supporting my game. my name is gideon and i am the 'inept dm who needs to read his books'. yes, i know that you should not level more than once a blah blah blah, and i know cr is to be adjusted blah blah blah, but when you and all your friends are going to be availible for the summer only and several are going to be in different time zones in a month, you adjust accordingly the schedule in which you level. i dont feel like running my party against npc class punks and level them once every 12-14 encounters. my plan is to take this party to level thirty in a summer. now, am i going to tell them that i am only going to let them level once when the janky cr system ,quote, "fails"? no. fun is what matters (though perhaps not as much to rules lawyers kill joys such as rntaboy) my party of 7 characters are great role players and extremely efficent power gaming cheese weasels. can i help it if the PCs organize thier attacks efficently and target all the clerics, even though they were not immediatly recognizable as such? no. and as for dumb monsters, no, were they monsters in the middle of a debate 90+ feet down a hallway behind doors 5 feet thick. and the barbarian can kick in the door when his strength is nealy forty especialy when he is aided by the druid in the form of a bloodstriker dinosaur (mm3). there were in fact 3 clerics of sufficent level and two psychic warriors with prestige classes (all power gamed mind you) and a prestiged war troll with an honor gaurd of fighter bugbears and a cloud giant with hulking hurler levels. however, the PCs include a cleric who managed to catch the cloud giant blackguard lord with a critical hit... with his magic weaponed lance and a spirited charge... while riding the pouncing dinosaur druid, immediatley after the warmage/incatatarix with two wand fighting laid down an explosive-maximized-empowered fire ball and a chained scorching ray (which incedetaly killed the entire honor guard of the war troll). their order of the bow initaite filled a mess of arrows into dire wolf companion of the cloud giant lord and the swashbuckler/duelist managed to land 5 attacks (two of which were criticals) on the remaining giant cleric. after the second round the only competent enemies that werent dead, blinded or otherwise incapacitated were the hulking hurler and the war troll. fine then, I'm an idiot, though my PCs had fun. i better go tell them that i'm revoking their stuff so that i can run them against a bunch of crap npc encounters that dont challenge them about 13 times and then we can finish this campaign by about the time 5.75th edition comes out. thank you for your guidance Rntaboy, i have been misguided but ye hath applied a balm to my eyes so i might see the glory of your righteousness. to the rest thank you and run your game how you want, what is important is to have fun and challenge your PCs (which this indeed was a challenge for them) ::Ok, like I said, my DM wrote that not me. He was a little more hostile and sarcastic than I would have been, but the point is made. He is not directing any of this at those who just think this is weird or whatnot, just the ones who insist on telling us how to play the game. If I'd realized that this was going to irratate so many people, I never would have posted it. But the past is just that. I thank all of you who posted and agreed that we should just be having fun. We now return you to your regularly scheduled forums.
Jager Mage 07-15-05, 04:58 PM	This is the gods honest truth. I've seen it repeatedly on both sides of the screen. When I pull out the stops on my monsters and play them to their full capacity with a mere surprise round, I can TPK without even working up a sweat. When the Players do the same and have the benefit of a surprise round, the opposite is true. I don't believe that there's any problem with the CR method of balancing encounters, but the surprise round can make a substantial difference in the outcome. I've also noticed that as the game rises in encounter levels, that one round becomes even more critical. If I had to put a number to it, I'd estimate that one side having the advantage of surprise can effectively elevate their CR (or ECL) by ~50% or more. Given that assumption, a 10th level party with surprise should be able to handle a single encounter against a CR 18-20 by expending their entire store of 'resources'. As was once pointed out by one of my players - "It really boils down to a hit point race. Can I do more damage to him than they can do to me?" When the ability to attack succesfully begins to overcome the ability to generate a high AC (somewhere around the 'teen' levels), the hit point race observation really becomes obvious. Add to that good tactics, high magic, planning, teamwork and no small amount of luck, and anything can be accomplished :teach: Taking these items into account, though, I would not award full XP to the party. If it was that easy for them to defeat the encounter, then the encounter wasn't challenging enough and not worth a full XP award. :twocents: :cool: thank you for understanding
Elendur 07-15-05, 05:44 PM	Don't take this as a knock on your play style, but I am curious how a 13th level cleric can buff 5 people with +11 to hit.
q'afuu 07-15-05, 05:59 PM	explosive-maximized-empowered fire ball Without checking the exact numbers, I'm fairy sure this wand alone eats up just about all of a 13th level character's suggested wealth, if not more. The spell shouldn't be available to casters until 16th level or so, let alone in wand form. Don't blame the CR system for not working if you're excessively overequipping the party. Especially at higher levels, giving the party double or triple the suggested wealth can easily make them 4 or 5 times as effective.
Zherog 07-15-05, 05:59 PM	fun is what matters Truer words were never spoken. ;) If your group is having fun, you're playing right. That doesn't mean, though, that mistakes weren't made. ;) ...druid in the form of a bloodstriker dinosaur (mm3). Nice. :) there were in fact 3 clerics of sufficent level and two psychic warriors with prestige classes (all power gamed mind you) Just curious - Did they have buff spells pre-cast? I currently play a 14th level cleric. He has a slew of spells he casts every day right after praying: Greater Magic Weapon 3 times (once via a pearl of power): one goes on his bow, the other two go on his companions pair of axes. Longstrider (travel domain spell) Magic Vestment twice (once via another pearl of power): once on his armor, once on his buckler Superior Resistance twice: once on himself, once on his companion (you'll find this incredibly awesome spell in Savage Species ;)) Endure Elements twice: him and his companion Undead Bane Weapon (found in Libris Mortis): cast on his bow Those spells make him a significantly different character. They add a +6 to all his saves, a +5 to AC, a +2 to his attack and damage rolls, extra bonuses versus undead (which we run into a lot - we're playing City of the Spider Queen), increased movement, and he never suffers from uncomfortable environments. Sometimes as a DM it's hard to remember that spells such as these are cast as all day affairs, and we cheat our NPCs out of some stats that'd help them last a little longer in combat. :) ... immediatley after the warmage/incatatarix with two wand fighting laid down an explosive-maximized-empowered fire ball and a chained scorching ray (which incedetaly killed the entire honor guard of the war troll). I'd have to look up the Chain Spell metamagic feat, but the tricked out fireball spell is too high of a level to go into a wand. their order of the bow initaite filled a mess of arrows into dire wolf companion of the cloud giant lord and the swashbuckler/duelist managed to land 5 attacks (two of which were criticals) on the remaining giant cleric. after the second round the only competent enemies that werent dead, blinded or otherwise incapacitated were the hulking hurler and the war troll. Yep - you can't account for critical hits. Those absolutely have a way of changing the dynamic of an encounter - especially when one player gets some lucky mojo going on his or her dice and lands a couple of them in the same round. fine then, I'm an idiot, *shrug* I don't think so. though my PCs had fun. And again, that's really all that matters, right - not the opinions of some strangers on the internet? * shrug * When advice comes along you can do one of two things - take it, or ignore it.
Capt. Pixel 07-15-05, 07:27 PM	... to the rest thank you and run your game how you want, what is important is to have fun and challenge your PCs (which this indeed was a challenge for them).... And THAT is really the whole point, isn't it? :cool:
GreyLord 07-15-05, 08:03 PM	There is one big thing you should note. There is a big difference between your DM and me. Your party would have died if they tried that against a group of creatures (with added levels, better have had some good levels too, seeing that most of those are CR11 or lower) I handled. Heck, I had a CR 7 Dragon take out half the party last time I played a 3.5 game...though I was nice and let them ressurect themselves. The party was around a 9th and 10th level... The difference between your DM and me...I let the creatures use any and all special abilities their race and class gives them...I play dirty with the creatures...and the big bad foes...they ain't stupid.
Keenath 07-15-05, 08:10 PM	Let me make a few points that may help explain the reaction you're getting. 1) Purpose of the post. You may have posted this just to share an adventure you enjoyed. That's fine, I suppose. But the tone of the post and the fact that it was posted suggests bragging -- "Look how great we are, don't you wish you were us, nyer." Maybe you didn't mean it that way; that's how it comes off. 2) Don't brag about your grades. GPA and intelligence tends to be fairly high among D&D players. It's a group of people willing and able to read and absorb a huge amount of material, memorize large chunks of it, analyze and use that information, and quickly do arithmetic in their heads. So, pulling out a 3.5 isn't particularly impressive, but it makes you look, in large part, like a wanker. In the real world, nobody really cares what anyone's grades were in school, and using it to support your own intelligence just looks like bragging. 3) You're not an idiot. Making mistakes in how you apply the rules isn't a sign of stupidity, and using them correctly isn't a sign of intelligence. It's a huge amount of information you have to keep track of in D&D, and mistakes happen to everyone. Don't get too defensive about it, we're not saying you're a fool. (Though some vitriol may be expected; see point #1) 4) Stay away from defending lost causes. Despite your protests, the truth is you HAVE got a group that isn't following the rules. From your detailed report, it's clear that your party has treasure far in excess of what is appropriate for your level. Furthermore, you have items that are downright illegal. Your wand of fireballs springs to mind, since it contains a spell higher than 4th level -- and worse, the spell it contains is, in fact, TENTH LEVEL and entirely illegal. Fireball is a level 3 spell, plus 3 for maximize, plus 2 for empower, plus 2 for explosive. If I had a wand of tenth level spells, I'm sure I could kill gods too.
FreeTheSlaves 07-15-05, 08:15 PM	You have clearly left the rules behind if they were ever mastered so there is no point to mention the violations. Funny thing is I've got one CR3 enemy terrorizing my party of nine (levels 1-2), so the reverse of pc domination seems to be possible too. The question really then are your players happy to miss out on all those levels? It seems to me that they are happy to rush along and not care to enjoy the journey, but will the ending of the campaign be so very satisfying?
Phrennzy 07-15-05, 08:33 PM	I totally understand why the DM is running things as he is. A limited time to play and you wanna be able, at the end of the summer, to kill the gods. All of your players are in on that mentality, and have a rip roaring time. However, none of that was expressed in the very first post. The first post makes no such mention, and so we are all left thinking it's just supposed to be a 'normal' by the book DND game, which is one more place from which the animosity comes. By-the-book, or RAW, which is how most everyone here plays - and assumes others play as well - you 'cheated'. 'Cheated' is not the term I would use after being told the style your group has adapted for this summer. But without that knowledge, it fits.
Thorak 07-15-05, 10:30 PM	thank you all for bashing and/or supporting my game. my name is gideon and i am the 'inept dm who needs to read his books'. yes, i know that you should not level more than once a blah blah blah, and i know cr is to be adjusted blah blah blah, but when you and all your friends are going to be availible for the summer only and several are going to be in different time zones in a month, you adjust accordingly the schedule in which you level. i dont feel like running my party against npc class punks and level them once every 12-14 encounters. I fail to understand why sticking a bigger number after my character's name makes the game more "fun". Levels are absolutely meaningless to "fun" unless you earn them. It's like $100. If someone gives you $100, you'll blow it on movies and junk food and stuff. It's free money, so it's meaningless. Work 15 hours, though, at a low level of pay in a thankless job, and that $100 of pay you get suddenly becomes a lot more significant and meaningful. my plan is to take this party to level thirty in a summer. now, am i going to tell them that i am only going to let them level once when the janky cr system ,quote, "fails"? no. fun is what matters (though perhaps not as much to rules lawyers kill joys such as rntaboy) my party of 7 characters are great role players and extremely efficent power gaming cheese weasels. can i help it if the PCs organize thier attacks efficently and target all the clerics, even though they were not immediatly recognizable as such? no. and as for dumb monsters, no, were they monsters in the middle of a debate 90+ feet down a hallway behind doors 5 feet thick. and the barbarian can kick in the door when his strength is nealy forty especialy when he is aided by the druid in the form of a bloodstriker dinosaur (mm3). So if they're 90 feet away, and there's a bunch of clerics, how, exactly, did the party surprise the lot of them and crush them like bugs? They've got 90 feet to cover, and I don't see many characters who could do that in a single round and do anything worthwhile when they got there. Nor, I suspect, was the group mostly ranged-combat based. Also, for what it's worth, if the enemy had clerics, they should have had long-term buffs on. Those things last hours; past 5th or 6th level, there's little reason not to cast it once you're up and moving. there were in fact 3 clerics of sufficent level and two psychic warriors with prestige classes (all power gamed mind you) and a prestiged war troll with an honor gaurd of fighter bugbears and a cloud giant with hulking hurler levels. however, the PCs include a cleric who managed to catch the cloud giant blackguard lord with a critical hit... with his magic weaponed lance and a spirited charge... while riding the pouncing dinosaur druid, immediatley after the warmage/incatatarix with two wand fighting laid down an explosive-maximized-empowered fire ball and a chained scorching ray (which incedetaly killed the entire honor guard of the war troll).[quote] Because, as noted, at least one of those wands is an epic item. [quote] their order of the bow initaite filled a mess of arrows into dire wolf companion of the cloud giant lord and the swashbuckler/duelist managed to land 5 attacks (two of which were criticals) on the remaining giant cleric. How'd he close the 90 feet you said the enemies were from the door? Heck, that goes for everyone, though I suspect the druid-dino might have the Charge distance, I seriously doubt any other melee fighter could close and still fight. after the second round the only competent enemies that werent dead, blinded or otherwise incapacitated were the hulking hurler and the war troll. fine then, I'm an idiot, though my PCs had fun. i better go tell them that i'm revoking their stuff so that i can run them against a bunch of crap npc encounters that dont challenge them about 13 times and then we can finish this campaign by about the time 5.75th edition comes out. thank you for your guidance Rntaboy, i have been misguided but ye hath applied a balm to my eyes so i might see the glory of your righteousness. to the rest thank you and run your game how you want, what is important is to have fun and challenge your PCs (which this indeed was a challenge for them) If they managed to defeat an encounter slightly over double the "normal" CR in under 6 rounds, there was no challenge. That's sort of the point. A challenging fight is one in which you burn through all your spells and abilities desperately trying not to die, and half the party doesn't make it and has to be Raised. And I'll repeat; there is absolutely nothing about higher level play that is inherently more "fun" than lower-level play. In fact, many people (myself included) find lower-level play more fun. Because you don't have 300 magical trinkets to sort through to find whatever gets you past this next challenge. You have to use your brain, and be creative.
vivid_disorder 07-15-05, 11:18 PM	Initial disclaimer: I don't want to tell anyone how to run their game, nor how to play it. I just want to weigh in with my uninformed opinion. Initial confession: I've been playing D&D longer than I care to remember, mostly as a DM, but as a player I've been prone to cheese occasionally. There's nothing wrong with occasionally saying "sod it, I want to be a half-dragon minotaur barbarian/assassin". Cheese can be good, but too much gives you weird dreams. That said, if I were a player in this game, I'd feel a little robbed. When I've played explicitly power-gamey campaigns, I've still expected a challenge, for my heroic psion/rogue/druid/monk/dragon disciple to come out of the fight covered in ichor and bleeding from a dozen wounds. I'd at least expect him to break a sweat. I'd echo the arguments of others: if i'd been DM (which of course I wasn't, and I don't know what the players call "fun"), my giant clerics would have been buffed to the hilt, guards posted, Alarm spells, traps, the works. The party would have won, maybe, but by god they'd have known they'd been in a rumble. I mean, hobgoblin honour guard? What the hell were they doing? Playing dress-up with the dire wolf (who should have been out bloody patrolling, not laying by the fire getting ribbons put in his fur by camp hobgoblin sergeants). This reminds me of the games we played at school, which were fun for a while, but essentially just develop into the "monty haul" school of dungeon crawl, basically an exercise in throwing dice. "You see a beholder, two liches and a copper dragon" "We kill it. I roll a 3, did I hit?" And you just see the beast, hit the kill-switch and divide the loot. For me, this isn't powergaming, it's dice: you might as well play craps and try and make a few dollars. That said, I'd be intrigued to know more about the campaign: how does a DM give a narrative to such rapid character growth? what's with all the giants? What's an Incantatrix? Is "cheese weasel" your own expression? Can I steal it? How can a priest yell his head off, cajoling +11 to hit out of his stern and distant god without being heard by a fricking wolf? (sorry but that wolf's really bothering me, I mean, what the hell was it playing at? If that were my animal companion I'd want my money back). Despite myself, I'm intrigued... I can't remember if I had a point or not. I guess the point is that if the party and the DM are enjoying it, and everyone's playing by the same rules (I'd hate to be the sole player trying to RP a sensitive half-orc bard trying to find acceptance in an uncaring world :) ), then it's cool - although I think power-gaming has a lot more to offer than just "who has intiative wins". The other point is that hobgoblin honour guards aren't worth spit. Oh, and if a wolf can't hear or smell a dinosaur (I mean, a bloody dinosaur) as well as a big, smelly half-giant barbarian and his five mates at 90 feet, then it's probably better off dead. :rant: In summation: Worst. Wolf. Ever.
weasel fierce 07-16-05, 01:36 AM	Despite your protests, the truth is you HAVE got a group that isn't following the rules. From your detailed report, it's clear that your party has treasure far in excess of what is appropriate for your level. Furthermore, you have items that are downright illegal. Your wand of fireballs springs to mind, since it contains a spell higher than 4th level -- and worse, the spell it contains is, in fact, TENTH LEVEL and entirely illegal. Fireball is a level 3 spell, plus 3 for maximize, plus 2 for empower, plus 2 for explosive. If I had a wand of tenth level spells, I'm sure I could kill gods too. Who gives a heck what the rules state ? Its not Monte Cook's D&D they are playing
Jager Mage 07-16-05, 02:45 PM	Ok, there have been some very good posts, and let me hit the topics I remeber. 1. Ok, I admit that the OP sounded like I'm bragging, and I realize why people are annoyed. I apoligize, it came across the wrong way. 2. The double wielding the fireball wand was allowable by what I think in an Incantatrix (Players Guide to Faerun) ability, I THINK, to allow metamagic feats to be applied to wands. I'm not playing the character, and have never played an incantatrix, so I'm not sure, I'll find out. 3. The party cleric didn't shout to cast his spells. The RAW says that the spells have a verbal component, and must be spoken clearly. It does not say they must be yelled. One can talk semi-quietly and still be clear and intelligible. However, looking back, I agree that maybe the wolf at least should have gotten a listen check. 4. Also, looking back, I agree that the clerics should have had some long terms buff spells up. The DM probably just forgot to put them on. I've done it myself. 5. Sorry about dragging the "high I.Q./GPA" thing in. I was merely taken aback by being talked to like I was stupid, and I shouldn't have gotten so defensive. 6. No, "cheese-weasel" is not my own term. The story, as I heard it, goes something like this. Again, I wasn't there, this is just what I heard: Back in 2nd edition, some of the guys in my area were playing at a con. The module that was being run was supposed the be the final extremely difficult encounter to an extremely difficult campaign. I believe that this was an RPGA event, but don't hold me to that. They encountered the dragon at the end, and through the use of a couple of time stops and some other masses crap that I don't know (never played 2e), they killed said dragon before the dragon got to act. The head DM at the con, upon learning the details, came over, and in a rage, called them ":censored: POWER GAMING :censored: CHEESE WEASELS!!!" Again, that's the story I heard, and apparently where the phrase in this area, came from. And yes, feel free to use the phrase. Also, if someone wants to come up with a sig-like cheese weasel to fight bunny, private message me, and I'll put it in my sig. Again, sorry for getting so defensive, and I'll make sure to try and keep the bragging out in the future.
ILL34GL3 07-16-05, 02:59 PM	The druid wild shaped into a tiny creature and stuck his head under the door to get an idea as to what was going on in the room. Tiny is cat-sized. It must have been a very shoddily built door to have a gap larger than the size of a cat head at the bottom. Seems like all of the occupants should have gotten listen checks considering the gap was that size and you guys were casting buffs outside. It really sounds like your DM is tactically inept. But as long as everyone's having fun...
Jager Mage 07-16-05, 03:04 PM	Have you ever seen how small a cat can squeeze it's head and body? Also, the doors were made for CLOUD GIANTS. They were a little bigger than usual. And my DM isn't tactically inept. Surprise round+good rolls+buffing spells+cavalry charger style character on a bloodraker dinosaur who is actually a druid with the pounce feat+plus a pyrofreak warmage=hurt. So stop calling people names. We've been over this.
thasis 07-16-05, 03:27 PM	As far as the no more than one level at a time, my DM agrees with the school of thought that if you defeat a significantly higher CR creature, you get all of the requisite XP, and if you level more than once, ok, you've earned it. The all great and powerful Thasis grants you premission to use this rule... because he uses the same rule. Now that, that is sead... dude... take some limits here. That's insane. Tone down the campaign. I have a friend who gains quite a few levels in one session but that's because we play for a long time, he's by himself, and he takes out monsters higher CR then him (and he gets full experiance for killing them because he has nobody to divide the experiance up with)... but, that's going to far. Tone down the game dude.
Catra 07-16-05, 03:35 PM	*snrrk* Cheese weasel... While your tactics were brutally effective, they were straight-foreward and, well, sort of boring. I wouls suggest trying to flare up the encounters with role-playing, even something so simple as "Uh..package for you!" Just to bring the guys over. Effective role-playing, in any quatity, can add volumes to any combat experience. So while I have no qualms about you gamestyle, I think you're missing out on a lot of the flavor, especially humor, the game can provide. Seriously, things can get hilarious. Got any wenching stories? :devil:
Jager Mage 07-16-05, 03:40 PM	No wenching stories yet..but we're working on it... ::DM Speaking now:: Humor is watching a CR 23 monster not survive the surprise round. It's also the look on the war trolls face when he sees the cleric that almost killed him and let him live 7 years ago, the bane of his existence, and his sole reason for being, come back and almost, but not actually, kill him....again. It was also the look on the DMs face when he realized how much xp we got.
FrozenBee 07-16-05, 04:35 PM	powergamer = SAD Roleplayer = GREAT! :P
Lyinginbedmon 07-16-05, 05:11 PM	powergamer = SAD Roleplayer = GREAT! :P My thoughts exactly... However, if both can be combined :plotting:
Androcus Divinicus 07-16-05, 05:18 PM	Let me make a few points that may help explain the reaction you're getting. 1) Purpose of the post. You may have posted this just to share an adventure you enjoyed. That's fine, I suppose. But the tone of the post and the fact that it was posted suggests bragging -- "Look how great we are, don't you wish you were us, nyer." Maybe you didn't mean it that way; that's how it comes off. 2) Don't brag about your grades. GPA and intelligence tends to be fairly high among D&D players. It's a group of people willing and able to read and absorb a huge amount of material, memorize large chunks of it, analyze and use that information, and quickly do arithmetic in their heads. So, pulling out a 3.5 isn't particularly impressive, but it makes you look, in large part, like a wanker. In the real world, nobody really cares what anyone's grades were in school, and using it to support your own intelligence just looks like bragging. 3) You're not an idiot. Making mistakes in how you apply the rules isn't a sign of stupidity, and using them correctly isn't a sign of intelligence. It's a huge amount of information you have to keep track of in D&D, and mistakes happen to everyone. Don't get too defensive about it, we're not saying you're a fool. (Though some vitriol may be expected; see point #1) 4) Stay away from defending lost causes. Despite your protests, the truth is you HAVE got a group that isn't following the rules. From your detailed report, it's clear that your party has treasure far in excess of what is appropriate for your level. Furthermore, you have items that are downright illegal. Your wand of fireballs springs to mind, since it contains a spell higher than 4th level -- and worse, the spell it contains is, in fact, TENTH LEVEL and entirely illegal. Fireball is a level 3 spell, plus 3 for maximize, plus 2 for empower, plus 2 for explosive. If I had a wand of tenth level spells, I'm sure I could kill gods too. This is exactly what I was thinking. Normally I don't like to quote entire posts, but in this case I'll make an exception. Also, using a GPA to justify your intelligence, in addition to what's already been said, just makes you look younger and more inexperienced. Regards, Justin.
ILL34GL3 07-19-05, 02:13 AM	Have you ever seen how small a cat can squeeze it's head and body? Also, the doors were made for CLOUD GIANTS. They were a little bigger than usual. And my DM isn't tactically inept. Surprise round+good rolls+buffing spells+cavalry charger style character on a bloodraker dinosaur who is actually a druid with the pounce feat+plus a pyrofreak warmage=hurt. So stop calling people names. We've been over this. What I'm saying is the monsters should have received listen checks to hear a party of adventurers (some wearing metal armor and casting spells I'm assuming) outside the door that had a gap in it larger than a cat's head. And how'd you guys open a door made for cloud giants without making noise?
Jager Mage 07-19-05, 02:16 AM	You're right, they should have gotten listen checks, the DM screwed up on that one. Very quickly and cinematically.
q'afuu 07-19-05, 12:14 PM	That's not the real issue though (all those Listen checks could have failed, after all, and the end result would have been the same). The main issue (IMO anyway) is that the party has much more equipment than it should (and some of it isn't even legal). If you mess with party equipment (on this kind of scale anyway), you can't expect the CR system not to break down.
Man in the Funny Hat 07-20-05, 12:25 AM	As I said before, play however you wish to and everyone else can stuff it. It's the one thing about D&D that is supposed to go without saying but apparantly has to be repeated ad nauseum because if you don't people decide to read it as a direct insult. Heck, I'm going to be the FIRST person to tell you that the RULES don't mean squat. It's a pet peeve of mine that too many players have cultivated such a narrow, unimaginative, rules-obsessed view of the game that they couldn't see a good, fun game for what it was if they'd tried. Still, there's room for valid criticism and looking at the very distinct possibility that there might be even better, more fun ways to play than "5 levels in 30 seconds". The DM in question has stated that it was his overt intent to advance the PC's to 30th level in a very short period of time. Okay. I guess my question still is - why? I mean, why 30th? Why not 20th? Why not 50th, or only 15th? I guess I don't see how extreme speed of advancement actually makes for the best use of a limited amount of time for an unfolding campaign. Myself, I would far prefer a limited-duration campaign that included no level advancement whatever, rather than what seems to me to be advancement for its own sake. If the conclusion of the campaign happened to sort of require 30th level PC's, why not start out at 20th? If the point was to start from 1st and get to 30th so that you can cover the entire range it seems that as DM you're cheating yourself and the players. Given the fact that it WOULD have to be a very limited-duration campaign you're not exactly providing the best gaming experience by the chosen approach. You're going to be giving short shrift to being able to enjoy any (every!) given stage of character advancement simply because you're hopelessly locked in a headlong rush to (apparantly) a meaningless goal of 30th level. After all, in D&D it's most definitely not the destination that matters, but the trip itself. Glad everyone there is having a good time - REALLY - but I gotta say that ain't my cup o' tea.
q'afuu 07-20-05, 09:39 AM	Heck, I'm going to be the FIRST person to tell you that the RULES don't mean squat. The problem isn't whether the rules mean squat or not. The problem is that you can't throw out one aspect of the rules and expect another, connected aspect to still make sense. The OP complains about the CR/XP system and how it doesn't accomodate his group's playing style. He shouldn't complain, since his group doesn't follow the rules for wealth and equipment, and wealth and equipment have a direct effect on the CR/XP system. That system can't accomodate his playing style, since it's designed for a very different style. If he wants to play a campaign that's very different from what is considered normal, that's just fine by me. He should realize that D&D has a fairly integrated ruleset though, and that if he changes certain aspects of it he'll have to change others as well if he wants things to make sense.
Sir Knight 07-20-05, 10:40 AM	If you have fun, then you're doing just fine. :) Enjoy the game and ignore the mean folk on these boards. That said this campaign is not one I would enjoy and I really support Keenath's comments (especially the GPA one. I CHOSE not to go to College and I guarantee I can hold my own in any mental contest. GPA doesn't mean jack, especially in some places just showing up can get you passing grades. Now if you wanna compare IQ scores then that's different but still wrong to do). IF you take some of the examples given and go by the book they are handled wrong, BUT the DM and players can do whatever THEY want to do for their enjoyment. Technically you're wrong but fundamentally you're right. It's all about Rule 0 and the DM's imagination. ENJOY your came and all that jazz! It does sound like that would have been a fun fight though. Reminds me of some encounters we had when we first started playing 1st Edition.
Aladdar 07-20-05, 12:13 PM	it seems to me that they've turned the game into EQ which is just a meaningluss rush to the "end game". I enjoy the low level play of the game much more than the top level. In fact, I enjoy a rather low magic world myself. I don't think they quite grasp what most people find so enjoyable about DnD. I don't enjoy the levels, I enjoy the journey and the development into those levels. That said, if they're having fun they can have fun however they wish.
Jager Mage 07-20-05, 02:13 PM	Ok, ok, again, i'm sorry about the GPA thing, it was wrong, I know. And I wasn't complaining about the XP/CR system. The only reason we are rushing is because we determined that we would go to 30th lvl, and didn't know til later that our time would get cut short. And I know we could have just skipped ahead and picked up at 20 and gone from there, but the DM has a grand plotline that he was really excited about, so we're skipping all the random encounters and most of the resource draining fights and just taking on the important ones so we can get the whole story in a short amount of time. And again, I'm sorry about the GPA thing. It was out of line.
Rumple_Cragstan 07-20-05, 02:39 PM	my party of 7 characters are great role players and extremely efficent power gaming cheese weasels. can i help it if the PCs organize thier attacks efficently and target all the clerics, even though they were not immediatly recognizable as such? I know powergaming, and I firmly believe that no level of powergaming could achieve this victory if the NPCs/Monsters had been played with thier abilities at full use. At level 7, a Barbarian (even a powergamed one) should not be able to beat about 175HP (not counting taking Toughness every feat, because thats not powergaming... thats dumb). The barb should have the highest HP in the whole group. If there where THREE clerics in that mundo group, then HARM should have come to bear. That should have killed a PC every round, if not two. And thats the clerics alone. i better go tell them that i'm revoking their stuff so that i can run them against a bunch of crap npc encounters that dont challenge them about 13 times and then we can finish this campaign by about the time 5.75th edition comes out. 13 challenges dosn't mean 13 sessions. I've had groups gain 2 levels in one night. You just need to understand the basic EL/CR system. I know you say that you do, but really, if you're posting something like this then its obvious you don't. There's nothing wrong with this though, because everyone learns. Just admit that you need to relearn it, and then do it. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm trying to help you (and your players).
Zherog 07-20-05, 02:49 PM	At level 7 ... He said there were 7 players, not that they were 7th level. ;)
Phrennzy 07-20-05, 03:48 PM	I am a 12th lvl character. The rest of the party is 13. 175 HP isn't out of line for a 12-13th level Barb.
Vaalingrade Ashland 07-20-05, 04:05 PM	Erm... why not start at a higher level instead of handing out pinata xp? Seriously, wanting to level quicker? I'm down with that. But burst leveling makes very little sense to me. Seems that you wanted to play Epic for the summer. That could have easily been done by starting at 17 and now burst leveling willy nilly. You'd be able to play level and have a game story that doesn't get you taunted and booed.
Rumple_Cragstan 07-21-05, 02:54 AM	He said there were 7 players, not that they were 7th level. ;) Ahh... sorry for the misunderstanding... I was tired when I read the thread the first time. But after looking and seeing that the party is 12-13th level... thats when the balance of the game goes wonky. I totally buy the story now. A few good spell combos and there's not much left standing, no matter who you're fighting (my party once did that... killed a dragon 4CR above them without suffering a scratch by teaming Ray of Enfeeblement with Web). Apologies for the naysaying, and like I said, at 13th level this story is very believeable.
the artful dodger 07-21-05, 04:27 AM	And I wasn't complaining about the XP/CR system. Exactly what was the point of that first post then?
verdynian 07-21-05, 04:30 AM	To Jager Mage, et al: -->I love it! Great post! One of the best I've read in some time. Good sound tactics, spell-buffing, and a desire to kick butt can overcome higher CRs anytime. Also, winning surprise round helps a lot! ;) Casting spells outside the door that is that thick made for giants? Makes sense. IMO, no listen checks for the baddies since they were arguing. 90 feet to cover from the door to the villains? Ok. Just be thankful that the enemies didn't drop a dispel magic on the team. I was a little saddened when my DM learned that trick when he realized spell-buffing end encounters quickly, but that just made my team work harder, and devise new tactics. :) Burst levelling? I see nothing wrong with it. You earn the xp, you get the levels in my opinion. Although the xp pooling idea is kinda neat. Will have to remember it the next time I run a game. Wanting to make 30 levels in three months? More power to you! Wouldn't mind trying that one out myself. Remember folks. Now maybe this was a AD&D 2nd Ed. concept, but it still applies to 3E or 3.5 Ed, or next month when 3.69 Ed comes out. The DM is not required to use each and every rule. Furthermore, some DMs interpret the rules differently. I know I interpret them differently than my standard DM. Like it has been said already, as long as everyone is having fun, there is no problem. :) As for overpowered eq for the characters, maybe they kicked some other baddies' butts that were higher than the PCs but were appropriately equipped, and looted them. Of course, that just speculation. But, does it really matter? Not really. :) To Jager Mage's DM: -->Sounds like a hell of a game. Congrats! Good luck in your summertime experiment. Wouldn't mind hearing the whole story. Got a website with journal posting, et cetera? Personally, I think you know what you're doing. Just got caught with your pants down. Happens to each and every DM. Some of them just will never admit to it. ;) Cheers!
Flakster 07-21-05, 11:40 PM	There are some questionable rule problems here... but I think everyone is getting a little too offended over all of this. All he wanted to do was tell a story, not get flamed. I was recently saw my entire group get split up for various reasons. We played like crazy for a week untill they had to stop, I threw overpowered encounters at them left and right. We had ALOT of fun, it was an extremely combat oriented last campaign, but we also did alot of interesting roleplaying. Some people need to realize that at times, powergaming/changing the rules to make the game more fun is alright. Besides, it's not your group, it's his, he can play anyway he wants.
White_Mana_Dragon 07-23-05, 09:51 AM	Lol, sounds like the campaign I'm runnin. I had my guys go up against a CR 4 dragon. They barely survived that encounter if the marshall in the party hadn't used his aura that gives +4 to damage when an enemy is being flanked. They seriously almost died to the dragon. A CR 4 Sapphire Dragon (mm2). Later, I had them fight some CR 2 Banegaurds (MoF) and they almost lost to THEM! They managed to do this at Lv. 1, NO MAGIC WEAPONS OR ANYTHING! Just sheer luck and cleverness! The most memorable fight, though, was when they fought a CR 5 Boneclaw (mm3) and I swear to god, it never made it to round 4, SERIOUSLY!!! And the marshall was to thank. He was not power gamed or anything. He just has these really good support abilities. They beat the boneclaw at Lv. 3. A pretty neat accomplishment if you ask me. And I DMed that game! Nobody was power gamed, I gave them full xp as reward, and after the whole Boneclaw thing, I gave them a +2 Holy Longsword that is a key item in my campaign. My PCs did very good, and I rewarded them for it. The point of being a DM is to challenge your party with tough challenges, and reward them if they win. I don't disagree with what your DM has done with his campaign, I mean, hey it's his game, not anyone elses. His players, his monsters, his quests. I think they were rewarded generously for their actions, I mean, becoming a mouse and peeking under the door, then prepping buff spells to be ready. I think they stacked their spells, but it doesn't matter. The DMG is more like guidelines anyway, you don't have to stick to the rules of the game all the time as a DM, because it is YOU who makes the real rules. YOU, the DM who governs game play in DnD. That is all I have to say about that subject.