Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 02-11-08, 06:09 PM	I just got done reading the latest replies to the "Weirdest response you got when telling someone you play D&D" thread, and I started to think about how fortunate I am to have been raised in a time where being confronted about my gaming is as rare as being confronted about my race. Sure we might still be called "geeks", but even in the media today "geeks" are represented much fairer than ever before (well, maybe except on Disney). I was thinking back on all I have heard about the persecution, the different religions/media/politicians/spouses/family members/whatever calling this game and all who took part in it evil, the D&D book barnfires, etc. The last generation must have gone through a lot for their passion of gaming, and I feel it is thanks to them that my generation can enjoy our D&D and games like WoW and Final Fantasy without having to worry about the same treatment. So thank you you old timers and gray beards. I know my cowardly ass couldn't have gone through the s@#% you guys did. :w00t:
PenderGrass 02-11-08, 08:25 PM	You're welcome. You may send money to: Old Gamers, Inc. 1974 Gygax Ave. Tomb of Horrors, CA. 93117 :dragon: *****
MrWildman 02-11-08, 08:30 PM	Aw, shucks. . . it weren't nothin' special. :blush: But, since you got my gray-bearded butt strolling down Memory Lane (roll for Wandering Monsters). . . My friends and I discovered D&D around '78 or '79 (junior high, sigh). At first we flew under the radar, adults seeing the game (if aware of it at all) as just another inexplicable kids' fad. The glory days of Box Sets and Errol Otis covers. Cheap brittle dice and a little black crayon to color in the numbers with. Grenadier Official Miniatures, rounded and cartoony. Ral Partha miniatures, dynamic and detailed. Good times. Pardon me, (sniff) something in my eye - Also, don't forget that we had our own gray-beards whose example we followed. The Wargamers, their shelves sagging with Napoleanic cavlry, quoting Sun-Tzu and Robert E. Lee at everyone. When the bad press started they showed us how to counter ignorant questions with impatient examples of dice mechanics, thereby demonstrating our intellectual (as well as moral) superiority. :D So don't worry, celestialkin. In a couple of decades you'll be astonishing the next generation with tales of the days before Full Sensory Immersion, or whatever. Peace.
celestialkin 02-11-08, 08:43 PM	Also, don't forget that we had our own gray-beards whose example we followed. The Wargamers, their shelves sagging with Napoleanic cavlry, quoting Sun-Tzu and Robert E. Lee at everyone. When the bad press started they showed us how to counter ignorant questions with impatient examples of dice mechanics, thereby demonstrating our intellectual (as well as moral) superiority. :D Really? That is news to me. I thought the 1970s crowd were the first. This is sort of like discovering a group existed in the abyss before the obyrith. :) It's a shame that generation is gone now. What one could learn by talking to them. So don't worry, celestialkin. In a couple of decades you'll be astonishing the next generation with tales of the days before Full Sensory Immersion, or whatever. Maybe, just maybe. Hopefully I will last that long. Either way I am not looking forward to it. Observing at elementary schools already has me feeling old at 21.
Artifact 02-11-08, 09:02 PM	I hope to D&D for many years to come. Seems like I've always enjoyed D&D as a hobby and game. Lately however, I'm feeling more and more negative about the future of D&D. I very rarely get to meet gamers my age anymore; some have inevitably drifted away over the years, although I know there are still some out there. I just hope WotC doesn't manage to alienate those of us who are left, but they seem to intent on it (in my opinion). I'm also growing more and more concerned about the negative vibe the new edition seems to elicit from gamers of all age brackets. Perhaps 4e is just a victim of the internet mind-set (argumenative, alarmist, dissenting, and such). I've actually cut-back my usual board activity over the last few weeks in an attempt to avoid these negative feelings. I appreciate the sentiment behind this thread however, so I wanted to post. I don't remember things being too bad in the early 80s for D&D, outside of a few well-publicized stories and a few over-zealous and ill-informed persons. I avoided confrontation by keeping my hobby to myself and my friends as best I could. When confrontation seemed inevitable (as it was in a couple of instances), I learned the value of taking a level-headed approach. Don't act like a Satanist and you won't be treated like one (usually), I guess is what I learned best ;). Just relax and be yourself, have fun; they'll understand and catch on sooner or later. Its a great time to be a gamer, moreso than anytime in D&D's history; I just hope there are others who feel the same way. Don't let the 4e negativity get you down (advice I need to take for myself obviously ;)).
MrWildman 02-11-08, 10:13 PM	(I'm no good at those Quote buttons and things. I struggled just to get my beautiful haiku up and running. So. . . ) First, celestialkin. Let me begin by saying: "Cthulhu Fthagn!" Next, that previous generation isn't quite gone yet. One works at my FLGS, sharing his encyclopedic rules knowledge and grumbling about the flaws inherent in the Armor Class system. And don't worry, I felt old at 21, too. Cheer up. The gentle ministrations of entropy will, as you approach your 40s, begin to erode your higher reasoning facilities to a simpler, more child-like state. Peace. Hi, Artifact. Hail fellow well met, and all that. I believe D&D's future is pretty secure. There will always be a Dungeons Ampersand Dragons game, in some form. There will always be people who "enjoy D&D as a hobby and game". It's lodged in the collective unconscious now, self-sustaining. Yeah. I don't lurk on the boards like I used to. It's all so chaotic and emotionally charged anymore. Triggers flashbacks of high-maintenance girlfriends and fly-by-night phonerooms. shudder I liken all the anxiety to HDTV. Unprecedented clarity, yes. Beautiful clouds on the horizon. But also unexpected displays of previously-undetectable minor flaws. Information overload. Easiest just to sit back and watch the show. Whatever happens next, happens no matter what.
Seeker95 02-11-08, 11:19 PM	Triggers flashbacks of high-maintenance girlfriends and fly-by-night phonerooms.Was that supposed to be pheromones? :P
Etarnon 02-11-08, 11:33 PM	I had D&D books stolen and pitched in the trash (Family members), books pitched over the side of the ship into the pacific (by guys who called our playing "Dungeons & F****s", whole campaign notebooks destroyed by right wingers (who went to a game convention to wreak havoc). When I was in my teens, before joining the military, I've sat in restaurants, generating characters, only to hear people say things like "Let's wait outside, and kick his ass when he leaves. Yeah, let's do it." So I just waited them out...rolling dice, as gamers will. Still the Land of Etarnon, and my campaigns from other game systems survive. As far as it goes, though, D&D was the most reviled and hated. Traveller, Battletech, Cyberpunk, were too complex for the detractors that I often met to understand. I often thought of the idea that we took that crap so that we could mentor a new generation. Sadly, that new generation more often than not scoffs at the idea that 1e was a good game, or that Traveller has any value as an RPG, since it was in B/W with little artwork, and no point gen method for Character generation. And I was one of those wargamers that was mentioned, prior to. Game companies like Avalon Hill, Strategic Publications Inc, Even GDW, all gone. Great wargames they did oft make. Thanks for your kind words.
kelvinaw273 02-12-08, 08:43 AM	Strange times they were ... but seriously we didn't on the whole have to put up with much, although there were exceptions such as Etarnon's experiences. I think the worst that happened to us was in the mid 80's when our University club had problems booking out the same room on a regular week night in the student union building - seems that the Christian Society had booked out every single room for one hour of one night across the entire term. Whether it was aimed at us or any other group we'll never know, but it was suggested that we find some masonic robes, a sacrificial dagger and put one of our female members (we had those, which were rare) in a bikini and would be there chanting with knife raised when they turned up for their one hour ... With impeccable timing I got involved with Paganism in the 90s just as the Satanic Panic swept the Western World. That was a lot more serious, as the accused suffered a lot worse than just having their rulebooks trashed. Again, nothing untoward happened to me or anyone I knew, but the atmosphere of menace was very much more palpable. In that light the D&D demonisation was just a stepping stone on the way for certain religious zealots to make complete and utter fools of themselves and make it clear to everyone that they were very much detached from reality. It's sad that so many people had to get hurt along the way, though. The moral of this is that ignorance is not bliss, and that it's better to stand up to idiots even if it looks like you'll fail than to let them use peer pressure and disinformation to sway the crowd. Get your facts straight, speak softly and don't be afraid to cry 'foul!'
KIDS 02-12-08, 09:35 AM	Very nicely written, celestialkin! That was very kind (and true) thing to put up :) p.s. I'm 20
Shadowshimmer 02-12-08, 10:30 AM	I started playing D & D about 80 or 81 and I can still remember it like it was yesterday. I was in the fourth or fifth grade and some friends of mine were having a huge sleep over and we starting playing that night in my friend's basement and we must have played all night. I had read the Hobbit and always liked Fantasy so I thought the game was perfect. I cannot even remember the first module. Something about a Wizard's tower but I remember my first character that night, Marcus the Thief. I thought the interaction was amazing, the dice and graphs were rather complex for my age at the time but we had a blast. Now we went to a Catholic school so when my friends and I brought in the game to play at recess one day, well lets just say that our teacher who was a Nun did not appreciate a bunch of kids playing this game full of Demons. We didn't care and kept playing. I have played as recently as a month ago and I have seen D & D go from this small basement game in Elementary School, magic club game in College to this vast empire. What do I think about 4.0? Not sure yet but I do like the old days better, even better then 3.0 or 3.5 because it was all so new and underground. I would gladly take the persecution or the nerd names again and would not change a thing. So to all the newbies or younger generation you are welcome but thank you for keeping it going and to bad that you missed out on the golden age but thats what stories are for lads.
Bacon and Eggs 02-12-08, 10:37 AM	I never dealt with it directly. But my friend was forced to sell off all of his materials before he went off to high school, elst hist gramma would burn them... He got 220$ for all of his books. That was alot of monies back in the 80s.
Belkar 02-12-08, 12:30 PM	Bravo, Celestiakin, for posting this! I sometimes wish I'd gamed in the "glory days". My first foray was a 2e game in like, '90 or '91, at a Boy Scout camping trip, no less. :D It was my first trip with the troop, and I didn't know hardly anyone - I just sat in the van on the way out to the campsite, reading my dog-eared copy of Fellowship of the Rings, hiding it so no-one could see. When one of the older kids asked what I was reading - I sheepishly showed him. Instead of the scorn and derision I was used to for having my fantasy proclivities, his smiling reply was, "That cool!" That night I was pulled into a tent with 4 other scouts who taught me how to play my first game of D&D. Our Senior Patrol Leader was the DM - and my first character, a human paladin, was killed by having a javelin thrust through his back. I was hooked. The SPL's dad was one of the scoutmasters - and was a grognard's grognard. A wargamer who started playing D&D with the white box edition... this guy taught us everything. I lived at his house 3 days out of the week. The man was a god to us. Bless him - and those like him - for paving the way and spreading the word to the younger generation. Kudos, you grognards!! Kudos to you all!
Shiftkitty 02-12-08, 03:17 PM	Something I always found funny was back in my teen years, the early 80's, the same people who were condemning me and my fellow gamers for "living in a fantasy world" would get all misty eyed and nostalgic when you brought up that they ran around pretending to be the Lone Ranger, Robin Hood, or the Green Hornet. Apparently, they were okay with LARPing...:rolleyes:
blodgett 02-12-08, 04:24 PM	I started in the late 70's and haven't looked back. Frankly I got more grief for being the first kid to show in school in jeans and a t-shirt then for D&D. Meh. (I think they were jealous, mom decided if I didn't care what I looked like, why should she and after 3 kids, who could blame her?) I've played most of them. AD&D, Star Wars (in all it's incarnations), Vampire (those people are strange, but good people), Shadowrun, Toon, Macho Women With Guns, Call of Cthulhu, and many others. Never had too many problems. I was forced to watch the movie about gamers goin' over the edge. You know the one (the old timers do anyway, the one with Thom Hanks). I've gone to a few conventions, met a few authors, but never really got into them. Met more authors in other settings (Ren Fairs, the SCA, through the Carnegie Museum). All in all, I still enjoy the people I meet who game. I like the fact I don't get the looks I used to get when I was younger. It's nice to know it's more accepted. (Sorry Mr. Falwell, but you lose.) It's also kinda funny that my nephew's and their friends want to hang out with an old timer like me and here about the old days of gaming. Some of them even want to try AD&D. Imagine that. Wizards is releasing 4th edition and here's a bunch of kids (okay, they're like 20) who want to try something that Wizards dropped. Who knows, maybe I'll show them. It might stop them from giving me grief when I use the term THAC0. Thanks for listening to this "old timer" ramble.
DebiHuman 02-12-08, 06:07 PM	Thanks for the walk down memory lane... I started gaming in college (I would have started sooner but a certain boyfriend from back then [yes, Greg I am talking about you] didn't think I would like it! Silly boys -- you can have talking unicorns and you think girls wouldn't like it? Sheesh! :rolleyes: Back then there were so few girls that gamed, that when I went to Origins dragging a female friend (who was new to gaming herself), there were only guys at the table and one actually said, "oh good, girls. You can play the female characters." Then I proceeded to have every other PC hit on my character in game. At least the guys all bathed by the next day and were wearing clean clothes. Frankly, I understood why the guys didn't shower -- those marathon game sessions could last an entire weekend -- who has time to shower? [BTW, girls hate BO and bad breath. We have more sensitive noses. Honest... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1796447.stm ] At least these guys weren't drunk and they all had decent math skills. [I never met a male gamer who couldn't figure out the tip even if he couldn't afford the tip!] Plus they all wanted to tell me about their characters [can you say bragging rights?] and I was a good listener. I still enjoy a good game story to this day. Beats the hell out of listening to sports stories! Debby
Ariakus 02-12-08, 06:21 PM	Well only every 3rd or 4th hair in my beard is grey :D But I earned them. I tease my wife that she's the reason behind them, but there's been a whole lot to my life that caused it, but D&D isn't one of them. Even though I began in '83, I didn't get a whole lot of flak from my peers as I was kind of tough, not your normal gamer type :D But I did hear some crap from older family members, but it wasn't that big of a deal. You're welcome. You may send money to: Old Gamers, Inc. 1974 Gygax Ave. Tomb of Horrors, CA. 93117 :rofl: I was forced to watch the movie about gamers goin' over the edge. You know the one (the old timers do anyway, the one with Thom Hanks). Yeah, Mazes & Monsters, that movie sucked big time.
sycanthor 02-12-08, 06:23 PM	I started playing in 1982 and the first adventure I played was the Tomb of Horrors. No wonder I am still and avid fan of the game now, although I dont play as often as I would like. I didnt experience any specific animosity towards my RPGing but I know that it was not accepted in the way it is today. I often say to friends and co-workers that I am coming out of the closet as a fully fledged RPG Geek (and I work in IT!) Once I caught the bug, I couldnt stop playing RPGs and most specifically, D&D. In Australia it was not easy to get gaming materials back then. Gaming shops were hard to come by. I even had a surface subscription to Dragon for a while which arrived 3 months behind the US! Good days though.
SterlingHeart PaganPummel 02-12-08, 08:04 PM	ahhh the first thing I did in D&D back in mid 70's...damn that mad hermet....we were in rural montana and D&D items were rarer than feathers on a fish...we used the keep again and again until the paper was brown. Who would have put an assassins guild below the smithy? Yargh....
Shiftkitty 02-12-08, 10:02 PM	You know, someone is goin gto set up an Old Gamer's home. Some evening some of us are going to be sitting in our wheelchairs around a card table, slugging down prune juice and Funyuns. DM: Okay, we're all here, but where's our ranger? PLAYER: He died last session, remember? DM: That doesn't mean we can't roll up a new character. Go get him out of his room. Tell him to stop being such a Chaotic Crybaby. PLAYER: No, he really died last session. Got that critical hit that sent your BBEG into the Abyss of No Return and then had a heart attack while doing his victory dance. Remember? DM: So who died when Jimmy tripped him with his cane in the middle of his victory dance? PLAYER: Uh, YOU almost did, dude. That was when you started suffering your -4 to your memory checks.
Mock26 02-12-08, 10:06 PM	You're welcome. You may send money to: Old Gamers, Inc. 1974 Gygax Ave. Tomb of Horrors, CA. 93117 :dragon: ***** To hades with that. Send money, via paypal, to jvidell@msn.com
Slimgauge 02-12-08, 10:53 PM	I've played most of them. AD&D, Star Wars (in all it's incarnations), Vampire (those people are strange, but good people), Shadowrun, Toon, Macho Women With Guns, Call of Cthulhu, and many others. My college bud Greg Porter (http://www.gamewyrd.com/echoes/porter_16.php) of Blacksburg Tactical Research Center (http://www.btrc.net/) WROTE Macho Women With Guns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macho_Women_with_Guns). A different college bud ran a "Star Wars" RPG before there was a published version, by modifying something else. I got into things from the wargaming side, started with Avalon Hill's "Battle of the Bulge" (the old one, where the German counters were pink, for some inexplicable reason). Most of us Grognards know that D&D developed from the miniatures game "Chainmail". The grand-daddy of all such miniatures games is H.G. Wells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._G._Wells) (yes, THAT H.G. Wells) "Little Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Wars)", published in 1913. So the debt goes back further than us folks who were playing in the 60s, 70s and 80s.
celestialkin 02-12-08, 11:19 PM	My college bud Greg Porter (http://www.gamewyrd.com/echoes/porter_16.php) of Blacksburg Tactical Research Center (http://www.btrc.net/) WROTE Macho Women With Guns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macho_Women_with_Guns). A different college bud ran a "Star Wars" RPG before there was a published version, by modifying something else. I got into things from the wargaming side, started with Avalon Hill's "Battle of the Bulge" (the old one, where the German counters were pink, for some inexplicable reason). Most of us Grognards know that D&D developed from the miniatures game "Chainmail". The grand-daddy of all such miniatures games is H.G. Wells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._G._Wells) (yes, THAT H.G. Wells) "Little Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Wars)", published in 1913. So the debt goes back further than us folks who were playing in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Little Wars: a game for boys from twelve years of age to one hundred and fifty and for that more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games and books. I guess that whole "Not needing to outgrow something unless you want to" speech I occasionally give to kids goes back further than I had thought. Amazing how one can have the same kind of thought/mindset after so much time. (Well, except for the comment against girls, of course! :) ). I imagine it would be interesting to find a copy of said rulebook and get modern gamers together to play it. Might actually be kind of fun, and the history part would be neat too.
Eldritch_Id 02-13-08, 12:16 AM	You may send money to: Old Gamers, Inc. 1974 Gygax Ave. Tomb of Horrors, CA. 93117 Preferablly, attached to the back of a large-screen 1080p HDTV, if you'd be so kind. :) I liken all the anxiety to HDTV. Unprecedented clarity, yes. Beautiful clouds on the horizon. But also unexpected displays of previously-undetectable minor flaws. Information overload. (I'll liken this to when Sir Robin was being dragged out of Castle Anthrax by Lancelot in Monty Pythons Quest for the Holy Grail) I like the anxiety! Let me face the anxiety! It won't make me too anxious! Actually, I think it'll do me good to face the anxiety! :) I don't know that others opinions of gaming will become completely tolerant any time soon. The social stigma has been placed. A lot of role-playing fans still have to defend themselves from others' opinions, after all. But I think it is important to consider the controversy, though. The event was an exellent of how easily something can become a popular scapegoat for a leader that needs a common enemy on which to focus. My personal belief after study (this was my focus for a large project during college) is that certain groups targeted fantasy role-playing games (specifically D&D), rock music, several alternative lifestyles, global-cooling, etc (last few of which transcend the discussion of this board, but it was the same practice, different witch to burn, so worth mentioning for context) simply to scare their political/religious-political followings into cohesiveness. There is merit to focus on a topic with the intent on speaking out against it when the topic is really a problem, but there should be some concrete evidence before you spout nonsense to a figurative lynch-mob-in-waiting. Propaganda is a very dangerous tool that gains a life of its own, to be used as such, even if the propaganda is true! I'm only 24, so I'm not in that group from the 70's-80's, but the prejudice arrayed against them at that time has a lot to teach any student of society. Sorry for the rant. Kudos for your experience to teach us, elder-gen gamers! And to the OP for bringing it to attention ;)
Slimgauge 02-13-08, 12:21 AM	I imagine it would be interesting to find a copy of said rulebook and get modern gamers together to play it. Might actually be kind of fun, and the history part would be neat too. Project Gutenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3691
PenderGrass 02-13-08, 02:04 AM	Preferablly, attached to the back of a large-screen 1080p HDTV, if you'd be so kind. That would be great for the Old Gamers, Inc. common room. Make sure to deliver it on a brand new truck. You can leave the keys. :dragon: *****
PenderGrass 02-13-08, 02:05 AM	To hades with that. Send money, via paypal, to jvidell@msn.com At least we are incorporated and have a mailing address. :dragon: *****
celestialkin 02-13-08, 12:42 PM	That would be great for the Old Gamers, Inc. common room. Make sure to deliver it on a brand new truck. You can leave the keys. :dragon: ***** And after a few more years it will look great in the lounge at your D&D old folks home that ShiftKitty is setting up. :D However, I am not a big fan of the elderly driving... On a more serious note, though. It would be interesting to see that scene ShiftKitty described come true. I wonder how many of you (and then us) will continue playing into those nursing home years. It would definitely make it worth volunteering our time there if we can get a good game going. Project Gutenberg: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3691 Thanks. Should have finished reading the whole before I posted. :embarrass
Shiftkitty 02-13-08, 03:20 PM	Little Wars: a game for boys from twelve years of age to one hundred and fifty and for that more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games and books. Holy Crom! Can we say 'sexism'? Seriously, I would love to see this game. I'll have to look it up later. But there's no way in the nine hells that tag line would pass the market today! :D
Mock26 02-13-08, 03:22 PM	At least we are incorporated and have a mailing address. :dragon: ***** I have a mailing address, but I need the money ASAP so that I can rent a truck to move all my massive piles of books and gaming supplies to Tomb of Horros, CA.
Seeker95 02-13-08, 03:32 PM	Holy Crom! Can we say 'sexism'?Are you claiming that girls that like boys' games and books are *not* more intelligent? :fight!:
Shiftkitty 02-13-08, 03:46 PM	I was remarking the implication that little girls' games and pastimes are not intelligent. Others might argue that war is not intelligent at all, or that little girls might find a more intelligent solution to diplomatic issues than through warfare, but let's face it. Who wants to roleplay "Peaceful Negotiations: The RPG"?;)
LordTarmos 02-13-08, 04:09 PM	my first game was from basic dnd back in the late 70's i think it was 78(not sure) we lived on an army base (Patch Barracks) in stuttgart germany. My older brother, and two of his friends and myself with a young mp nicknamed skie as our dm(I will not tell you how we met him(it involved 12 kids toilet paper a a$$ colonel's car and turning the car sideways between 2 buildings so he could not drive it out) [wait who said that]. We played the game twice weekly at the library until we would finish a module then wpu;d wait until skie was able to buy the newest module at the bookstore on base and would start again. I remember taking flak from the base chaplain for weeks until he finally left us alone. I think our first module was keep on the borderlands I was young back then (9) and actually was mature for my age other thatn the incident(s) with the colonel and a major but thats another story, my brother was 15 and not( the pranks were usualy his idea) i just went along to impress him. Anyway until skie left we played alot of the old modules for years on that army base in germany lots of fun had there, after he left my brother was able to pick up as dm where skie left off. Fun times in the old days yes they were, many things I would do over again but dnd not one of the and the tricks on the dumbA$$ colonel and major I would still do them only better(oh yeah).
mike_beavers 02-13-08, 06:17 PM	I started in 1975. Original D&D. The worst things were the mazes and monsters movie, Patricia Pullman? BADD(bothered about dungeons and dragons) movement against the game. The kid (james egbert) in the sewers escapade. My folks were happy that I wasnt out getting loaded or drunk like alot of my friends and allowed me my own brand of geekness.
Mad_Jack 02-15-08, 12:27 AM	I'm 35... I started playing when I was in grade school. I was probably about 8 or 9 at the time - my younger brother had a friend who's older brother taught us to play. A bunch of us were playing in 4th grade, that was back in about '82, I guess, but by junior high school most of the local kids had moved on to other stuff. None of the local parents or clergy really much cared that we were playing (I even taught one of the nuns who ran the catechism classes at the local church to play), but years later there was a local doctor's son who "allegedly" murdered his wife with a home-made spear, and there was a certain amount of crap tossed around about Satanism and D&D at the time. I was basically the only one of the neighborhood kids still into it, and I had to pull my books out of the garbage one day when my mother decided to get a stick up her butt about it. But then, my mother being my mother, lol, she never even said anything when my books turned up back in my room the next day. The guy later wrote a book about the whole thing and why he was innocent, and not once did he ever mention that "D&D made me do it...", lol. I remember I also got kicked out of the library in junior high school by the librarian because she didn't approve of me playing. Something about how it was going to rot my brain (despite having a 146 IQ, superior basic math skills, and reading on a college level in junior high - two of those three which I atrribute largely to D&D) and somehow ensure that I never made anything of myself. :D I still have a lot of my old stuff... Dice from the red Basic set, a copy of B2 Keep On The Borderlands that I found in a used bookstore years after I lost my first one, 1st Ed. PHB and MM, and several of the old 25mm lead miniatures released by TSR. I've got one from the fighters set, two from the wizards and illusionists set, and one from the thieves set. I've also still got some of the AD&D acrylic paints that are *still* perfectly functional after all these years. :D I think I can speak for most of the long-time D&D players (god, can I really call myself an old-timer? lol) when I say "Wait, we did what?..." I'm pretty sure that none of us were really *trying* to blaze new trails, or to fight for the rights of RPG players, or even to insure that people after us would keep playing the game. All we wanted to do was play, and if that got us ragged on, eh, chances were good we were probably getting ragged on for something else anyway, so we just kept playing...
kelvinaw273 02-15-08, 04:59 AM	I don't know that others opinions of gaming will become completely tolerant any time soon. The social stigma has been placed. A lot of role-playing fans still have to defend themselves from others' opinions, after all. But I think it is important to consider the controversy, though. The event was an exellent of how easily something can become a popular scapegoat for a leader that needs a common enemy on which to focus. My personal belief after study (this was my focus for a large project during college) is that certain groups targeted fantasy role-playing games (specifically D&D), rock music, several alternative lifestyles, global-cooling, etc (last few of which transcend the discussion of this board, but it was the same practice, different witch to burn, so worth mentioning for context) simply to scare their political/religious-political followings into cohesiveness. There is merit to focus on a topic with the intent on speaking out against it when the topic is really a problem, but there should be some concrete evidence before you spout nonsense to a figurative lynch-mob-in-waiting. Propaganda is a very dangerous tool that gains a life of its own, to be used as such, even if the propaganda is true! I do believe one eminent public speaker in the US claimed on 9/11 that gays and lesbians were responsible (indirectly) for disaster ... it just goes to show how detached from reality and desperate to further their agenda some people are.
Mock26 02-15-08, 12:33 PM	I started in 1975. Original D&D. The worst things were the mazes and monsters movie, Patricia Pullman? BADD(bothered about dungeons and dragons) movement against the game. The kid (james egbert) in the sewers escapade. My folks were happy that I wasnt out getting loaded or drunk like alot of my friends and allowed me my own brand of geekness. I didn't start that early (1981 for me), but I remember Tom Hanks in that movie, I remember BADD, and I remember the story of the steam tunnels. My mom spent years trying to get me to quit D&D, up to sometime when I was in high school, I think it was 10th grade. What got her to stop was one night the police brought home one of my older brothers, drunk beyond belief, throwing up all over the place (including in the back of the squad car). My brother was only a year older than me and still in high school and it was probably the 5th time that year the cops had brought him home. That very same night I had been out playing D&D with my friends while he was at a kegger & Jim Beam party. The next morning I asked my mom if she'd prefer me playing D&D with my friends or being brought home my the cops. She didn't say a word, but she never asked me again to stop playing D&D.
RedWizard 02-15-08, 02:10 PM	Like Mock26, I started gaming in 81 after watching my older sister playing the game (She was a home coming queen candidate by the way, just in case your wondering) but I think she was just playing to flirt with the guy running the game who was an all state wrestler and a really smart guy to boot. At first I remember just really liking the miniatures but then they let me play (grudgingly) and the rest is history. I think my first module was Secret of the Slaver's Stockade. Not to sound like one of those old men who gripe about how the youngsters today have it so easy but I was just reading another thread about 4th ed. and was surprised to find that the newest edition believes characters should automatically have magical weapons and items given to them as if by some sheer right of leveling. I was shocked, as an old timer I know that we fought hard to get every item we received. I just wanted to ask some of the other oldsters here in the game what they think of this. Is it me or is the game just becoming completely nerfed?
Shadowshimmer 02-15-08, 03:25 PM	I would agree that a lot has changed from the old school days. I remember when you would have to fight tooth and nail to to get a masterwork weapon to say nothing about a magical weapon. I hope to always like D & D but it seems like characters can become so powerful at such a quicker pace. I mean I played a Monk when D & D first came out and they had a 1 to 4 die! It was crazy just trying to keep that Monk alive to move up to the next level I don't think that Monk had any magical items for over a year of role playing. I think I ended up with Magical Gauntlets after the party had killed some baby Dragon and that was just about pure luck.
anyamarie 02-15-08, 03:57 PM	i started in 1982 and have played since then i have been through most of the 1st & 2nd edition modules both as a player and DM and have had all sorts of players in the party running some strange PC's. i have enev written some of my own adventures to run players through. some i wrote before playing with PC's and some i wrote on the fly. i am not too happy with 3.0 or 3.5 because of the changes made to the combat system and armor class, but i guess someone thought it would be easier to learn the game that way. as for 4.0 i will take a look at it when it comes out and give my opinion after 6 to 9 months of playing 4.0. now, i have been thinking it would be great if some of us could get together and have one of us run a game for a week, yes a week session would be fantastic.
celestialkin 02-15-08, 04:17 PM	Not to sound like one of those old men who gripe about how the youngsters today have it so easy but I was just reading another thread about 4th ed. and was surprised to find that the newest edition believes characters should automatically have magical weapons and items given to them as if by some sheer right of leveling. I was shocked, as an old timer I know that we fought hard to get every item we received. I just wanted to ask some of the other oldsters here in the game what they think of this. Is it me or is the game just becoming completely nerfed? Wow. I had heard that magic items were going to be as common as candy and air in the new edition, but people are complaining that it's their "right" to have them? Geez, I wonder what the motivation will be now that it is not about if/when you might find a mystical magical item, but how many will be uber in the pile you get after every battle. I can just see players whining because they "only" got such and such, and not something way better instead like they "should have". :rolleyes: Anyway, sorry for the rant. I just wanted to show that even some of the new generation agrees with you on that. http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/reddragon.gif ****
Seeker95 02-15-08, 04:43 PM	the newest edition believes characters should automatically have magical weapons and items given to them as if by some sheer right of levelingNot true. The new edition of the game lets the DM know what level of magic is assumed for purposes of balancing encounters. If your players have less magic than that, an otherwise balanced encounter may be a bit more difficult. If your players have more magic than that, the otherwise balanced encounter will be less difficult.
Eldritch_Id 02-16-08, 02:16 AM	...the newest edition believes characters should automatically have magical weapons and items given to them as if by some sheer right of leveling. The new edition of the game lets the DM know what level of magic is assumed for purposes of balancing encounters. If your players have less magic than that, an otherwise balanced encounter may be a bit more difficult. If your players have more magic than that, the otherwise balanced encounter will be less difficult. If even if it was true, that would be nothing unusual for a modern fantasy game. That just makes 4e contemporary to other modern fantasy franchises. A system that gave magic-level suggestions for the DM would make the low-magic play style (that is characters without a magical arsenal at their disposal) a lot more practical than in 3e D&D. Imagine if WotC had went some other way. WoW, that would've made some modern fantasy fans angry! :rimshot:
kelvinaw273 02-16-08, 04:37 AM	Wow. I had heard that magic items were going to be as common as candy and air in the new edition, but people are complaining that it's their "right" to have them? Geez, I wonder what the motivation will be now that it is not about if/when you might find a mystical magical item, but how many will be uber in the pile you get after every battle. I can just see players whining because they "only" got such and such, and not something way better instead like they "should have". :rolleyes: Anyway, sorry for the rant. I just wanted to show that even some of the new generation agrees with you on that. Sounds awful, another concession to the "Player's Rights'" lobby by the sound of things.