| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Windspear12-23-07, 08:55 AM | There is a class in the book of vile darkness called Disciple of Dispater. A fighter can get in at 6th level. At 4th level, the Disciple gets an ability called Iron Power+1. Basically, it doubles the crit range of iron and steel weapons and gives +1 insight on attacks and damage. On 8th level this increases to +2 and the crit range triples. The crit range increasment doesn't stack with keen, but it does stack with imp. critical. That means, that a 14th level fighter with a falchion gets: basic 18-20, X2 from Iron Power +1 means 15-20, X3 from Iron Power +2 means 12-20 and finally X4 from imp. critical making it a staggering 9-20 critical. Thats 12 digits, making it a 60% chance of scoring a critical with a X2 multiplier, and 2d4 damage. That's before magical properties the weapon itself might have. |
| GeeBee12-23-07, 09:10 AM | I think you may have something there, and that is pretty cool. The only downside I can see is that a x2 crit against something at 14th level isn't really all that hot, and you still have to deal with constructs, undead, oozes, etc. Still, what a great way to scare (or really annoy) your players! |
| Grumman12-23-07, 10:28 AM | Use it with the Blood in the Water stance from Tome of Battle for added hilarity. Cumulative bonuses to hit and damage every time you crit. |
| hitorijun12-23-07, 10:54 AM | Well you math is right. As allready stated 4d4 at level 14 on a crit really isnt all that impressive unless of course it is enchanted with vorpal or some form of burst damage ( or worse considering I only have the core books and dont have access to all the goodies you guys have) |
| RadicalTaoist12-23-07, 10:56 AM | BOVD and crit range increase stacking = 3.0 I believe this sort of abuse (it was possible to swing your falchion with a threat range of -2 to 20) may have been one of the stated reasons forthe 3.5 revision. |
| Malchius12-23-07, 10:57 AM | Get the enchantment from the Miniature's Handbook which makes you roll to determine you're critical modifier, they'll be a 3/4 you'll get the same as normal or better. |
| kelvinaw27312-23-07, 11:01 AM | This is why Imp Critical was stopped from stacking with Keen in terms of threat range, and I would be tempted to apply the same here. However, you could increase the damage multiplier instead so you get 12-20/X3. Anyway, if you are going to go with improved critical, you should take a scythe - X4 critical multiplier is much, much nicer. |
| metalmayhem8011012-23-07, 05:16 PM | Hehe, I don't know what you're talking about guys. Sure, a 4d4 crit isn't GREAT a 14th level... But that isn't including any rage/power attack/strength score/other cheesey damage add ons. Critical hits arn't powerful for the dice you get, they're scary for the bonuses you get hitting. If you're weapon does more on max damage from dice than you're bonuses are giving it, you shouldn't be in melee :P |
| Salla12-23-07, 05:56 PM | Since you also have to hit the target, most of that threat range is going to be completely wasted. |
| Sinfire Titan12-23-07, 09:07 PM | Scythe or un-errated Sharash>>>any X2/20 weapon. By the way, the BoVD is outdated. That crit trickery won't fly in 3.X, as they have never released any errata on the BoVD. And likely never will. |
| Novacat12-23-07, 09:22 PM | That's why I ban the Book of Vile Brokenness and the Book of Exalted Stupidness from my games. |
| Sinfire Titan12-24-07, 12:51 AM | That's why I ban the Book of Vile Brokenness and the Book of Exalted Stupidness from my games. Some of both of those books are actually balanced. Dark Speech, for example. |
| Crimson_Concerto12-24-07, 01:05 AM | Just remember that if you roll that 9 and your attack roll only totals 30 when the target's AC is 40, you still miss. People tend to forget the part that getting a critical threat doesn't mean you automatically hit. You only do that on a natural 20... |
| Tedronai12-24-07, 02:09 AM | That's why I ban the Book of Vile Brokenness and the Book of Exalted Stupidness from my games. The Book of Exalted Deeds is actually 3.5, as evidenced by the publishing date (being several months after 3.5 core), the damage reduction notations (using X/magic instead of X/+Y), and several other notable differences (referencing 3.5 spell version rather than 3.0, among other things). It also includes much less brokenness than the BoVD, the worst of such being the Apostle of Peace cheese which will in most cases annoy the other players even more than it annoys the DM. |
| CryoSilver12-24-07, 10:16 PM | Some of both of those books are actually balanced. Dark Speech, for example. So how much of the $30 the book costs is actually worth that money? |
| Novacat12-24-07, 10:40 PM | The Book of Exalted Deeds is actually worthless, as evidenced by the incredibly broken material. It also includes every bit as much brokenness as the BoVD, the worst of such being the Apostle of Peace cheese which will in most cases annoy the other players even more than it annoys the DM. Fixed. |
| CryoSilver12-24-07, 10:42 PM | Faced with the prospect of an Apostle of Peace joining a party in which I was playing, my character said "It's him or me. I make a living by killing monsters, not hugging them." When I DM, I enforce the rules of being exalted very harshly. If you're an Apostle of Peace, and you accidentally trample a plant underfoot, you lose your powers. |
| Sinfire Titan12-25-07, 01:24 AM | So how much of the $30 the book costs is actually worth that money? Every penny of it. It is a great read, and it broke Bestow Curse well beyond what I originally thought it was capable of. Bestow Greater Curse alone was almost worth the book itself. Broken? Somewhat. Most of the PrCs need nerfing. And the book is in desperate need of errata. What I don't understand is why everyone was so upset about Ur-Priest in Complete Divine. They say they nerfed the class, but nothing changed. |
| Terraneaux12-25-07, 02:07 AM | I'm going to go ahead and say that the BoVD is much more useful than the BoED. The vile darkness stuff tends to have more equitable srawbacks in return for the power they grant, and, in addition, the book is a good resource for signature villain spells, feats, etc. The BoED, on the other hand, is troubling because of its position as a 'good guy' and therefore PC book. It is full of counterintuitive and even outright self-contradictory takes on alignment, as well as some insanely overpowered abilites (touch of golden ice) that seem to have no other justification for existance than 'we're the good guys, we get cool stuff." |
| Sinfire Titan12-25-07, 04:57 AM | I'm going to go ahead and say that the BoVD is much more useful than the BoED. The vile darkness stuff tends to have more equitable srawbacks in return for the power they grant, and, in addition, the book is a good resource for signature villain spells, feats, etc. The BoED, on the other hand, is troubling because of its position as a 'good guy' and therefore PC book. It is full of counterintuitive and even outright self-contradictory takes on alignment, as well as some insanely overpowered abilites (touch of golden ice) that seem to have no other justification for existance than 'we're the good guys, we get cool stuff." Bad guys still get cooler toys (Rebuke!) |
| Passivearmada12-26-07, 11:13 AM | Hehe, I don't know what you're talking about guys. Sure, a 4d4 crit isn't GREAT a 14th level... But that isn't including any rage/power attack/strength score/other cheesey damage add ons. Critical hits arn't powerful for the dice you get, they're scary for the bonuses you get hitting. If you're weapon does more on max damage from dice than you're bonuses are giving it, you shouldn't be in melee :P You know, if you get a critical, you get 4d4 + Str mod, not 4d4 + 2x Str mod. I just thought that should be clear. |
| Selgard12-26-07, 11:24 AM | actually it's: (weapon damage + (most) bonuses) x Crit multiplier. Strength bonuses, weapon enhancement bonuses, wep spec feats, etc all get multiplied. it's things like Sneak Attack and the d6 from weapon elemental damages that don't get multiplied. |
| Belkar12-26-07, 12:24 PM | Ooookay.... what if you've got a rogue build that leads up to this, and then you take Telling Blow? Then you're automatically doing your sneak attack damage each time you crit. That's a 60% chance to sneak attack a foe, while not flanking him, not hiding, not invisible... You could scream a bloodcurdling warcry while charging him, with a big, neon sign over your forehead, alone in the battle... and have a 60% chance to sneak attack. :D |
| zook1shoe66612-26-07, 04:01 PM | the pre-errata Bladed Gauntlets in the Sword and Fist 3.0 book got uglier with the Weapon Master and Imp Crit + Keen. 7-20/x2 add Vorpal to them? :schemes: |
| Nomad_the_Odd12-26-07, 04:34 PM | Some CO board cheese: Put aptitude weapon property on a pair of kukris, and take lightning mace. Every time you roll a threat, get another attack. *twitch* So, two weapon fighting feats will get us 7 attacks, haste gets us 8, and 60 percent of those will trigger another attack. So that's an average of about 4.5 extra attacks a round. and 60 % of those will trigger extra attacks... You're looking at about 12+ attacks most rounds. With tons of crits. And blood in the water. |
| zook1shoe66612-27-07, 12:19 AM | Some CO board cheese: Put aptitude weapon property on a pair of kukris, and take lightning mace. Every time you roll a threat, get another attack. *twitch* what book is Aptitude weapon from? |
| Sinfire Titan12-27-07, 01:28 AM | what book is Aptitude weapon from? Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords. |
| Frozen Yakman12-27-07, 01:43 PM | BOVD and crit range increase stacking = 3.0 I believe this sort of abuse (it was possible to swing your falchion with a threat range of -2 to 20) may have been one of the stated reasons forthe 3.5 revision. Except that crit-stacking wasn't remotely unbalanced. They removed it for no reason. |
| Frozen Yakman12-27-07, 01:45 PM | Scythe or un-errated Sharash>>>any X2/20 weapon. By the way, the BoVD is outdated. That crit trickery won't fly in 3.X, as they have never released any errata on the BoVD. And likely never will. Any unerrated 3e material is valid 3.5 material by WotC's official stance if you care about that kind of thing. |
| Zherog12-27-07, 02:08 PM | You know, if you get a critical, you get 4d4 + Str mod, not 4d4 + 2x Str mod. I just thought that should be clear. Sorry, you're incorrect. If you have a +3 Strength mod and you crit with a x2 weapon, you deal +6 points of damage. Anything that's added as a flat number (Strength, enhancement bonuses, Power Attack, favored enemy bonuses, Weapon Specialization, etc) gets multiplied on a crit. Anything that adds extra dice of damage (sneak attack, flaming weapon property, etc) is not multiplied. |
| zook1shoe66612-27-07, 03:20 PM | Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords. found it. holy CRAP!! nice thanx :p use Aptitude Keen Bladed Gauntlets (un-errata'd) and Improved Crit with the 10th level Weapon Master. gets UGLY!!! |
| zook1shoe66612-27-07, 08:18 PM | yeah i was bored.... made a Strongheart Halfling that could make 26 attacks/rnd (12-20/x2) with a Double Khopesh, plus crit threats grant an additional attack AND crit confirmations grant an additional attack. |
| Crimson_Concerto12-30-07, 04:36 AM | What's the big deal about the Aptitude weapon enchantment? :confused: I'm looking at it right now, and I don't get it. Even if you can apply your Improved Critical feat to a Keen weapon, the effect doesn't stack, so what's your point? |
| zook1shoe66612-30-07, 10:53 AM | my DM always allows them to stack, since they are from different aspects of the training with the weapon. one is an enhancement and the other is you training with it. so when i make a character, they stack ;) since its BS they don't. the crazy part is the aptitude weapon works with a bunch of the Weapon Style feats. ok without them stacking.... 26 attacks/rnd (15-20/x2) with a Double Khopesh, plus crit threats grant an additional attack AND crit confirmations grant an additional attack and are VORPAL. |
| Keldin12-30-07, 01:03 PM | ok without them stacking.... 26 attacks/rnd (15-20/x2) with a Double Khopesh, plus crit threats grant an additional attack AND crit confirmations grant an additional attack and are VORPAL. So, neh, let's see the build. :) |
| Sinfire Titan12-30-07, 03:33 PM | my DM always allows them to stack, since they are from different aspects of the training with the weapon. one is an enhancement and the other is you training with it. so when i make a character, they stack ;) since its BS they don't. the crazy part is the aptitude weapon works with a bunch of the Weapon Style feats. ok without them stacking.... 26 attacks/rnd (15-20/x2) with a Double Khopesh, plus crit threats grant an additional attack AND crit confirmations grant an additional attack and are VORPAL. Vorpal states the die must be a Nat 20. Just a threat won't work, it has to be a 20 before anything is modified. |
| zook1shoe66612-30-07, 09:25 PM | Vorpal states the die must be a Nat 20. Just a threat won't work, it has to be a 20 before anything is modified. yeah thats right.... *grumbles* one of those nights ;) So, neh, let's see the build. :) Scrooge NE Strongheart Halfling Fighter 8/Dervish 10/Exotic Weapon Master 2 Medium Humanoid (halfling) Hit Dice (hp): 20d10 +40 (hp) Initiative: +15 Speed: 35ft AC: 28 (+13dex, +1size, +3dervish, +1spinning halberd), flatfooted 15, touch 28 BAB/Grapple: +20/+18 Attack: Khopesh +40/+40 Full Attack: Khopesh [primary] +34/+34/+34/+29/+24/+19 and [offhand] +34/+34/+34/+29/+24 and [other] +29/+29 Damage: Khopesh [primary] 1d6+7 (slashing, 12-20/x2 +1 Con damage) and [offhand] 1d6+6 (slashing, 12-20/x2 +1 Con damage) and [other] 1d8+6 (bludgeoning, 12-20/x2 +1 Con damage) SA: A thousand cuts 1/day, elaborate parry, flurry of strikes, slashing blades, tireless dervish dance of death 5/day, twin exotic weapon fighting SQ: Fast movement +15ft, halfling traits, improved reaction, movement mastery Saves: Fort +12, Ref +23, Will +11 Abilities: Str 14, Dex 36, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8 Skills: Climb +4, Craft (weaponsmithing) +24, Hide +17, Jump +6, Listen +3, Move Silently +4, Perform (dance) +22, Swim +2 (lbs), Tumble +36 Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes (B), Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (double khopesh), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (B), Improved Critical (double khopesh), Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) (B), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (B), Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Lightning Mace (B), Power Attack (B), Roundabout Kick (B), Snap Kick (B), Spinning Halberd (B), Spring Attack (B), Two-Weapon Fighting (B), Weapon Finesse (scimitar) (B), Weapon Focus (double khopesh, halberd, light mace) Flaws: Meager Fortitude, Shaky Treasure: 173870gp, +5 Keen Double Khopesh of Aptitude and Speed (400630gp, 4lbs), Fanged Ring (ring, 10000gp), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (hands, 36000gp, 0.5lb), Manuel of Quickness in Action +5 (used, 137500gp) A Thousand Cuts: Double the number of attacks. Lightning Mace: Additional attack at same bonus on critical threat. Spinning Kick: Additional attack at same bonus on critical hit. |
| Sinfire Titan12-30-07, 11:50 PM | yeah thats right.... *grumbles* one of those nights ;) Scrooge NE Strongheart Halfling Fighter 8/Dervish 10/Exotic Weapon Master 2 Medium Humanoid (halfling) Hit Dice (hp): 20d10 +40 (hp) Initiative: +15 Speed: 35ft AC: 28 (+13dex, +1size, +3dervish, +1spinning halberd), flatfooted 15, touch 28 BAB/Grapple: +20/+18 Attack: Khopesh +40/+40 Full Attack: Khopesh [primary] +34/+34/+34/+29/+24/+19 and [offhand] +34/+34/+34/+29/+24 and [other] +29/+29 Damage: Khopesh [primary] 1d6+7 (slashing, 12-20/x2 +1 Con damage) and [offhand] 1d6+6 (slashing, 12-20/x2 +1 Con damage) and [other] 1d8+6 (bludgeoning, 12-20/x2 +1 Con damage) SA: A thousand cuts 1/day, elaborate parry, flurry of strikes, slashing blades, tireless dervish dance of death 5/day, twin exotic weapon fighting SQ: Fast movement +15ft, halfling traits, improved reaction, movement mastery Saves: Fort +12, Ref +23, Will +11 Abilities: Str 14, Dex 36, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 8 Skills: Climb +4, Craft (weaponsmithing) +24, Hide +17, Jump +6, Listen +3, Move Silently +4, Perform (dance) +22, Swim +2 (lbs), Tumble +36 Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes (B), Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (double khopesh), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (B), Improved Critical (double khopesh), Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) (B), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (B), Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Lightning Mace (B), Power Attack (B), Roundabout Kick (B), Snap Kick (B), Spinning Halberd (B), Spring Attack (B), Two-Weapon Fighting (B), Weapon Finesse (scimitar) (B), Weapon Focus (double khopesh, halberd, light mace) Flaws: Meager Fortitude, Shaky Treasure: 173870gp, +5 Keen Double Khopesh of Aptitude and Speed (400630gp, 4lbs), Fanged Ring (ring, 10000gp), Gloves of Dexterity +6 (hands, 36000gp, 0.5lb), Manuel of Quickness in Action +5 (used, 137500gp) A Thousand Cuts: Double the number of attacks. Lightning Mace: Additional attack at same bonus on critical threat. Spinning Kick: Additional attack at same bonus on critical hit. *Shudder*. If someone presented me with that character, I would deck them. Hard. With the BoED, just for the sake of irony. |
| JulesCARV12-31-07, 01:19 AM | The Mind's Eye Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) is another potential source of critical range-increasing fun. I think it's probably best applied to weapons with large multipliers like scythes than ones with broad ranges like falchions, though, since it provides a flat +2 to critical range rather than any multiplication of existing critical range. It's a rather tough class to get into, though. When I DM, I enforce the rules of being exalted very harshly. If you're an Apostle of Peace, and you accidentally trample a plant underfoot, you lose your powers. Well, for a plant as in monster with the plant type (tendriculos, phantom fungus etc. Not sure if you could plausibly accidentally trample one of those), that's probably right. Most real-life plants (like grass, trees, etc) are objects rather than creatures in D&D, though. At least, that's my understanding. :) |
| Rulebook12-31-07, 01:31 AM | if somebody presented me with that build id say okay, then proceed to modify my game to include lots of flying things. |
| zook1shoe66612-31-07, 10:42 AM | *Shudder*. If someone presented me with that character, I would deck them. Hard. With the BoED, just for the sake of irony. haha.... yeah. not as bad as the one in my sig :-p if somebody presented me with that build id say okay, then proceed to modify my game to include lots of flying things. that would be a problem :-p |
| ravenshrike12-31-07, 12:22 PM | if somebody presented me with that build id say okay, then proceed to modify my game to include lots of flying things. Sooo, you'd sideline everyone except the wizard, warlock, druid, and cleric with the Travel domain? Good job, you certainly nerfed your PCs there. |
| Elgor12-31-07, 02:09 PM | Sooo, you'd sideline everyone except the wizard, warlock, druid, and cleric with the Travel domain? Good job, you certainly nerfed your PCs there. Na, the fighter could get some kind of flying to compensate... or teleporting and flying then you could just pop on over to wherever the bad guy is and beat them to a pulp... ofcourse it would have to be a quickened teleport to make that really effective. Side note: did anyone else notice that if you have a rod of quicken you can quicken 9th level spells? or did i miss something? |
| Keldin01-02-08, 11:36 PM | Side note: did anyone else notice that if you have a rod of quicken you can quicken 9th level spells? or did i miss something? Sure, I noticed it, but I think that my characters would have a much better use for the 170,000gp that it would cost to do that, at most, three times a day. |
| playswithfire01-26-08, 11:08 AM | More fun with Tome of Battle :D Feral Human Fighter 3/Swordsage 2/Crusader 1/Soul Eater 1/Disciple of Dispater 8/Bloodclaw Master 2/Crusader +1/Fighter +1 ECL Class BAB Feats/features 1 Feral LA 2 Fighter 1 feat[Disciple of Darkness] human[Alertness] fighter[Combat Expertise] flaw(Shaky)[Combat Reflexes] flaw(Murky Eyed)[Weapon Focus(mace)] 3 Fighter 2 fighter[Power Attack] 4 Fighter 3 feat[Two Weapon Fighting] 5 swordsage 3 6 swordsage 4 Weapon Focus(tiger claw weapons) Tiger claw includes kukris and claws 7 crusader 5 feat[Lightning Maces] 8 soul eater 6 9 dispater 7 10 dispater 8 feat[improved energy drain] 11 dispater 9 12 dispater 10 13 dispater 11 feat[Imp Two Weapon Fighting] 14 dispater 12 15 dispater 13 16 dispater 14 feat[Improved Critical(kukri)] 17 bloodclaw 14 18 bloodclaw 15 Superior Two-Weapon Fighting 19 crusader 16 feat[Greater Two Weapon Fighting] 20 fighter 17 fighter[Martial Stance(Aura of Perfect Order)] Dual wielding +whatever necrotic focus aptitude kukris If the target AC is less than or equal to 29*+weapon enhancements+strength, you automatically kill it, assuming it can't completely absorb your attacks with damage reduction and is also immune to energy drain. Aura of perfect order lets you treat any d20 result (including attacks) as an 11. You crit on anything higher than 9. Lightning Maces gives you another attack at the same bonus every time you threaten a critical. Additionally, each critical will drain two levels from the target (necrotic focus weapon enhancement and soul eater's energy drain, which will also heal 10 HP per crit) and give you stacking +2 bonuses to attack rolls, as well as saves, ability checks and skill checks for an hour (improved energy drain) Which means if you use perfect aura and don't hit, stop using it, take a swift action to switch to blood in the water and make the rest of your attacks rolling normally. Stay in blood in the water until it's dead or you've got enough stacking +2s from improved energy drain to take a swift action to go back to aura of perfect order and kill it. You'd actually probably do fine just staying in blood in the water, but the certainty of Aura of Perfect Order was too fun not to work into the build Reasonable variations on this would probably be to either: drop the crusader levels and focus more on tiger claw maneuvers and TWFing for large numbers of attacks OR drop the twf tree, swordsage and bloodclaw master levels and focus on a big damage two-handed weapon I went with the middle course. *BAB 17+1 for weapon focus +11 for the guaranteed roll of 11=29 |
| Zherog01-26-08, 12:42 PM | Fighter 3 is a "bad" level (from an optimization standpoint). You should replace it with almost any other class that gives +1 BAB per level. |
| playswithfire01-26-08, 01:14 PM | Notice that the last level is Fighter again. I need to get the bonus feat at the last level to qualify for Aura of Perfect order, so I needed the last fighter level to come then. |
| Zherog01-26-08, 02:12 PM | Ah - no, I didn't notice that. :tiphat: |
| Selgard01-28-08, 12:31 PM | Doesn't that spinning kick feat only work if you crit on an unarmed attack though? or am I thinking or something else? |
| smeagol_lied01-28-08, 02:16 PM | All you guys using lightning mace: you know that only works with a pair of light maces, right? Or am I thinking of something else... |
| zook1shoe66601-29-08, 10:09 AM | Doesn't that spinning kick feat only work if you crit on an unarmed attack though? or am I thinking or something else? All you guys using lightning mace: you know that only works with a pair of light maces, right? Or am I thinking of something else... both feats work with an Aptitude weapon, since the weapon replaces the unarmed strike in spinning kick and the light maces in lightning mace |
| Dam_Eht-karp01-30-08, 11:09 PM | BOVD and crit range increase stacking = 3.0 I believe this sort of abuse (it was possible to swing your falchion with a threat range of -2 to 20) may have been one of the stated reasons forthe 3.5 revision. must be, cuz it sure as hell wasn't the Wish Economy, since that's still around... I was going to check FC2 for a class update, then I remembered the damn thing's more about fighting devils than serving or being them... *roll eyes* |