*Expanded Psionic Handbook* in Core Topics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Haldrik
05-12-04, 05:56 PM http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33175.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Psionics.zip)

Psionics has been with DnD since early on. It is part of the DnD tradition. I feel the current incarnation of psionics in the *Expanded Psionic Handbook* is a success. This book worked out most of the kinks in psionics, integrated it well within the overall DnD system, maintained both power and balance, and is well received by DnD players.

I would like to see the XPH become truly "core" and to locate alongside the *Dungeon Masters Guide*, the *Players Handbook*, and the *Monster Manual*.
ante_up
05-12-04, 06:03 PM If psionics were ever to become core again, they wouldn't be in a seperate book. Instead they would have there place in the PHB, DMG, and MM, just like magic does.
Geethree
05-12-04, 06:52 PM At this point, psionics is still mostly just a variant magic system. There's no real reason to make it core. Whether or not the new PsiHB is balanced and a success doesn't matter. Integrating it into the core books would make the game a lot harder to learn initially. I think it should be a supplement just for the sake of new players who already have a lot of information to absorb.
Count Arioch the 28th
05-12-04, 07:49 PM I wouldn't mind psionics becoming core, but I do know that a lot of people don't like the flavor of psi, so perhpas it would be wrong to force them to pay for it. (After all, if they added to the PHB, prices would rise, and we'd have to pay mroe.)
Korhal IV
05-12-04, 09:19 PM Actually, we'd pay less - the more units of work in a single book, the flatter WotC's variable costs become. It's why they stopped printing adventures - the overhead for management and bureaucracy sunk the profits on them, while a big rule book spread out the cost and sold a lot better.

So yeah, incorporate the PsiHB into the PHB - I'm all for getting $50 of books for $40. :D
Haldrik
05-13-04, 05:24 PM Geethree:
At this point, psionics is still mostly just a variant magic system. There's no real reason to make it core.
To the contrary, psionics is a *real* alternative to the Vancian spellcasting system. The Vancian spellcasting system is despised by veterans and novices alike!

Integrating it into the core books would make the game a lot harder to learn initially.
The XPH made psionics easy to understand, perhaps even easier than traditional magic. If I were learning DnD for the first time, I would concentrate on mastering the Psion, long before mastering the nonsense of the Wizard!

Ante Up:
Psionics ... wouldn't be in a seperate book. Instead they would have there place in the PHB, DMG, and MM, just like magic does.
It could go either way. "Core" material in these, plus splatbook for variants.

Count Arioch:
I wouldn't mind psionics becoming core.
Psionics really should be core.

Perhpas it would be wrong to force them to pay for it.
There's always the SRD to help fill in the gaps in books!

Korhal:
Actually, we'd pay less - the more units of work in a single book, the flatter WotC's variable costs become.

As Korhal says. Everybody wins if psionics is core.

There is every reason to make psionics core!

For now, I would like to see the *Psionics* Forum included in the *Core Topics* Forum along with the DMG, PHB, MM+, and Prestige Classes.
Haldrik
05-15-04, 09:49 PM The Expanded Psionic Handbook is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!

Check out the SRD. Click on the picture of the Shaper below to download the Psionics Section of the SRD.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33175.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Psionics.zip)

And the Art Galley page for the XPH can be found by clicking on the Psicrystals below.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80502.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20040403a)
Dagda Mor
05-15-04, 09:59 PM I'm rather split on the issue. On one hand, I personally kind of dislike the flavor psionics gives a D&D game. On the other hand, if it were made core it might actually be made balanced.
Roman
05-15-04, 10:26 PM I would support psionics becoming core. Some people do not like the flavour of monks in medieval-Europe-derived settings (count me among these people) yet monks have been made core.
Haldrik
05-15-04, 10:42 PM Dagda Mor,

For me the Psionic flavor is excellent for Viking style campaigns. Norse magic is remarkably "psionic" in flavor. It relies on the power of a person's own mind. "Second Sight", Astral Projections, Telekinesis, and so on are common motiffs.

If (Psionics) were made core it might actually be made balanced.
That is the greatest success of the Expanded Psionic Handbook. It seems truly balanced.

Roman,
As a side note: Notice how Psionics is part of the "core" SRD. That's the way it should be among the DnD *Core Topics* forums too!
Roman
05-15-04, 11:00 PM Originally posted by Haldrik
Roman,
As a side note: Notice how Psionics is part of the "core" SRD. That's the way it should be among the DnD *Core Topics* forums too!

Honestly, I think you will have to wait till 4th edition for psionics to become core. Although they shoud, I am not sure WotC will make it core even then and in any case 4E is not coming out for a while...
Geethree
05-16-04, 12:17 AM To the contrary, psionics is a *real* alternative to the Vancian spellcasting system. The Vancian spellcasting system is despised by veterans and novices alike!I never said it's not an alternative; I'm saying that it's just a variant magic system. Mechanically, it is absolutely no different from a "mana" based system. There's no reason for the core rules to support multiple magic systems when the game is already difficult to learn already.
The XPH made psionics easy to understand, perhaps even easier than traditional magic. If I were learning DnD for the first time, I would concentrate on mastering the Psion, long before mastering the nonsense of the Wizard!I agree that the XPH makes it very easy to understand. I own the book and I think it's an excellent product. However, that doesn't mean that it still doesn't require time and effort to understand. Having multiple magic systems in the core books would be unnecessarily difficult. I am of the opinion that the core books should focus on one magic system. Not only does this make the game easier to absorb, it helps to establish a general tone or concept for the game.

Besides the reasons I have mentioned, psionics is a very different type of "magic" than traditional magic. A lot of DMs do not think it fits their D&D games; I am sure you could find many people here who would agree with that. The mechanics of psionics aside, the core books must strive to create a general concept for the game. Supplements and campaign settings should fill in the rest.
Mad Miso
05-16-04, 03:28 PM I don't think you'll ever see Psionics integrated into the core rulebooks.

However , the XPH is a very remarkable achievement, and could infact be used as a template for 4th edition spellcasting.

It's hard to argue that the psionic rules don't present a more balanced and interesting approach to spellcasting than clunky Vancian Magic.

On top of which, even many of the classes are effectively PH book classes done right. The Psion, divided into 6 unique and balanced specialty classes, is exactly what I've heard wizard fans clamoring for, for a long time now.

The Wilder is exactly what the Sorcerer should have been. It's chock full of flavor, Has tremendous spellcasting power , but not the versatility of a Psion, and rounds out the package with solid non-magical adventuring skills.

The Psychic-Warrior is a nicely harmonious blend of combat and magic that puts most fighter/mage Prc's to shame.

It's entirely possible that the XPH represents the future of D&D.;)
Nyat
05-16-04, 05:42 PM After reading through the XPH it seemed unbalanced to me. Augmenting seems to much. The fact that you can take a first level power, and make it more effective than many higher level spells really says something. And the 7th level kineticist power that allows a cone of damage, that by level 13 can be augmented to deal 26d6 damage, of any energy type you choose, and each energy type effects it in some way, such as cold changing the save for half to fort. That power is ridiculous IMHO, it deals insane damage when augmented, can be altered to be the most effective against whatever you are going up against, and can deal more damage than a meteor swarm. And thats just the strongest of a family of similiar spells that can all be augmented to be nearly as insane. yes I realize that will make it cost a lot of power points. But that would be like allowing arcane casters access to higher level spells or cast more of their highest level spells, and the only draw back being that they cast less. But who cares about casting less when you reduced all oppisition to dust after the first round?
Geethree
05-16-04, 05:55 PM And the 7th level kineticist power that allows a cone of damage, that by level 13 can be augmented to deal 26d6 damage, of any energy type you choose, and each energy type effects it in some way, such as cold changing the save for half to fort. That doesn't seem correct. You can't spend more points on any given power than your current level. I don't think there's a 7th level power that costs 13 power points that does 26d6 damage.
Mad Miso
05-16-04, 06:17 PM *Ruffles through the SRD*

I assume you're talking about Energy Cone.........3rd level power, 5 PP's, base 5d6 damage.

A 20th level Psion could up it to 20d6 damage at the cost of 20 PP's.......which is more than it cost to manifest a 9th level power. It's not all that impressive for such a high-level character.

A 6th level Psion who just learned this power could do a whopping 6d6 with it.

Not to mention that it is a kineticist only power, so it's only availible to 1 of the 6 types of Psion.(The type that specializes in, gee, blasting stuff)

Furthermore, the fact that low-level spells can still be useful at higher-levels is just part of the class assumptions. Psionic classes can pick any level-power they can access to learn when they level up.

Edit: Ahhh.....you're talking about Energy Wave. It's exactly the same as energy cone, except that it's:

1. Availible to all psions

2. 4 Level's Higher.

3. Has a scaling Save DC.

4. Has a much bigger Area of Effect.

Regardless, it can only do 13d6 damage at level 13, and 20d6 damage at level 20.

See how the Psionic System Works? Sure, Cone is a lower-level power that can do as much damage as wave for the same cost, but's it's still an inferior power.
Ashtar
05-16-04, 09:56 PM I've been using psionics since 2nd edition (I'm playing Darksun, updated to 3.0 homebrew and now updated again to 3.5 homebrew), but I must say: I HATE PSIONICS !

Now let me explain, each of the core classes need each other, with the Psion (and flavors) not so. They can heal, have offensive, defensive powers, mobility powers, utilitarian. Heck, in 3.0 & 3.5 You have Knock !!! So that took out a heck of a lot of the thief's usefulness. The other thing is that with the point system, a Psion can throw around so many more high level powers compared to a wizard or a sorcerer of the same level (Eg. [3.5] Level 20: 343 PPs (w/o Ab. score bonus) witch equals 20 (!) 9th level powers in a row and still 3 pts to use substenance and not eat or drink the whole day).

Basically, I've never found the psi system to be balanced and I find that each sucessive system has gotten worse. I just started used 3.5 and I shudder at the thought of some of the powers (Psionic Revivify is an example that comes to mind. Where else is there a return to life spell at that level, that costs so little and DOESN'T remove a level from the deceased and cost a heck of a lot in material components ? Okay you need to cast it soon, but anyway the PCs will usually stick close to the guy with THAT power!).

I also dislike the fact that since 3.0 psi powers just *work* like magic. I really like the 2nd ed fact that you had to roll to see if you could activate your powers be it a stat check [2.0] or a Mental AC [2.5 psi], which made psionics totally different from magic.

Anyway, I hate Psi, but I'm stuck with them since I love the world (Dark Sun) and they are part it.

- Ashtar

PS: Message to my players: Please don't destroy the Psionatrix so that all Psi are wiped from the face of Athas! You'll make a happy DM ! :D
GSHamster
05-16-04, 10:31 PM Ashtar:

Perhaps you should check out the Psychic's Handbook from Green Ronin (http://www.greenronin.com/cgi-bin/product.cgi?prodid=1306).

It's been getting good reviews, and seems to going for a more subtler and toned down version of psi powers. From your post, I gather that you might be interested in such a system.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Haldrik 05-12-04, 05:56 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33175.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Psionics.zip) Psionics has been with DnD since early on. It is part of the DnD tradition. I feel the current incarnation of psionics in the Expanded Psionic Handbook is a success. This book worked out most of the kinks in psionics, integrated it well within the overall DnD system, maintained both power and balance, and is well received by DnD players. I would like to see the XPH become truly "core" and to locate alongside the Dungeon Masters Guide, the Players Handbook, and the Monster Manual.
ante_up 05-12-04, 06:03 PM	If psionics were ever to become core again, they wouldn't be in a seperate book. Instead they would have there place in the PHB, DMG, and MM, just like magic does.
Geethree 05-12-04, 06:52 PM	At this point, psionics is still mostly just a variant magic system. There's no real reason to make it core. Whether or not the new PsiHB is balanced and a success doesn't matter. Integrating it into the core books would make the game a lot harder to learn initially. I think it should be a supplement just for the sake of new players who already have a lot of information to absorb.
Count Arioch the 28th 05-12-04, 07:49 PM	I wouldn't mind psionics becoming core, but I do know that a lot of people don't like the flavor of psi, so perhpas it would be wrong to force them to pay for it. (After all, if they added to the PHB, prices would rise, and we'd have to pay mroe.)
Korhal IV 05-12-04, 09:19 PM	Actually, we'd pay less - the more units of work in a single book, the flatter WotC's variable costs become. It's why they stopped printing adventures - the overhead for management and bureaucracy sunk the profits on them, while a big rule book spread out the cost and sold a lot better. So yeah, incorporate the PsiHB into the PHB - I'm all for getting $50 of books for $40. :D
Haldrik 05-13-04, 05:24 PM	Geethree: At this point, psionics is still mostly just a variant magic system. There's no real reason to make it core. To the contrary, psionics is a real alternative to the Vancian spellcasting system. The Vancian spellcasting system is despised by veterans and novices alike! Integrating it into the core books would make the game a lot harder to learn initially. The XPH made psionics easy to understand, perhaps even easier than traditional magic. If I were learning DnD for the first time, I would concentrate on mastering the Psion, long before mastering the nonsense of the Wizard! Ante Up: Psionics ... wouldn't be in a seperate book. Instead they would have there place in the PHB, DMG, and MM, just like magic does. It could go either way. "Core" material in these, plus splatbook for variants. Count Arioch: I wouldn't mind psionics becoming core. Psionics really should be core. Perhpas it would be wrong to force them to pay for it. There's always the SRD to help fill in the gaps in books! Korhal: Actually, we'd pay less - the more units of work in a single book, the flatter WotC's variable costs become. As Korhal says. Everybody wins if psionics is core. There is every reason to make psionics core! For now, I would like to see the Psionics Forum included in the Core Topics Forum along with the DMG, PHB, MM+, and Prestige Classes.
Haldrik 05-15-04, 09:49 PM	The Expanded Psionic Handbook is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!! Check out the SRD. Click on the picture of the Shaper below to download the Psionics Section of the SRD. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33175.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Psionics.zip) And the Art Galley page for the XPH can be found by clicking on the Psicrystals below. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80502.jpg (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20040403a)
Dagda Mor 05-15-04, 09:59 PM	I'm rather split on the issue. On one hand, I personally kind of dislike the flavor psionics gives a D&D game. On the other hand, if it were made core it might actually be made balanced.
Roman 05-15-04, 10:26 PM	I would support psionics becoming core. Some people do not like the flavour of monks in medieval-Europe-derived settings (count me among these people) yet monks have been made core.
Haldrik 05-15-04, 10:42 PM	Dagda Mor, For me the Psionic flavor is excellent for Viking style campaigns. Norse magic is remarkably "psionic" in flavor. It relies on the power of a person's own mind. "Second Sight", Astral Projections, Telekinesis, and so on are common motiffs. If (Psionics) were made core it might actually be made balanced. That is the greatest success of the Expanded Psionic Handbook. It seems truly balanced. Roman, As a side note: Notice how Psionics is part of the "core" SRD. That's the way it should be among the DnD Core Topics forums too!
Roman 05-15-04, 11:00 PM	Originally posted by Haldrik Roman, As a side note: Notice how Psionics is part of the "core" SRD. That's the way it should be among the DnD Core Topics forums too! Honestly, I think you will have to wait till 4th edition for psionics to become core. Although they shoud, I am not sure WotC will make it core even then and in any case 4E is not coming out for a while...
Geethree 05-16-04, 12:17 AM	To the contrary, psionics is a real alternative to the Vancian spellcasting system. The Vancian spellcasting system is despised by veterans and novices alike!I never said it's not an alternative; I'm saying that it's just a variant magic system. Mechanically, it is absolutely no different from a "mana" based system. There's no reason for the core rules to support multiple magic systems when the game is already difficult to learn already. The XPH made psionics easy to understand, perhaps even easier than traditional magic. If I were learning DnD for the first time, I would concentrate on mastering the Psion, long before mastering the nonsense of the Wizard!I agree that the XPH makes it very easy to understand. I own the book and I think it's an excellent product. However, that doesn't mean that it still doesn't require time and effort to understand. Having multiple magic systems in the core books would be unnecessarily difficult. I am of the opinion that the core books should focus on one magic system. Not only does this make the game easier to absorb, it helps to establish a general tone or concept for the game. Besides the reasons I have mentioned, psionics is a very different type of "magic" than traditional magic. A lot of DMs do not think it fits their D&D games; I am sure you could find many people here who would agree with that. The mechanics of psionics aside, the core books must strive to create a general concept for the game. Supplements and campaign settings should fill in the rest.
Mad Miso 05-16-04, 03:28 PM	I don't think you'll ever see Psionics integrated into the core rulebooks. However , the XPH is a very remarkable achievement, and could infact be used as a template for 4th edition spellcasting. It's hard to argue that the psionic rules don't present a more balanced and interesting approach to spellcasting than clunky Vancian Magic. On top of which, even many of the classes are effectively PH book classes done right. The Psion, divided into 6 unique and balanced specialty classes, is exactly what I've heard wizard fans clamoring for, for a long time now. The Wilder is exactly what the Sorcerer should have been. It's chock full of flavor, Has tremendous spellcasting power , but not the versatility of a Psion, and rounds out the package with solid non-magical adventuring skills. The Psychic-Warrior is a nicely harmonious blend of combat and magic that puts most fighter/mage Prc's to shame. It's entirely possible that the XPH represents the future of D&D.;)
Nyat 05-16-04, 05:42 PM	After reading through the XPH it seemed unbalanced to me. Augmenting seems to much. The fact that you can take a first level power, and make it more effective than many higher level spells really says something. And the 7th level kineticist power that allows a cone of damage, that by level 13 can be augmented to deal 26d6 damage, of any energy type you choose, and each energy type effects it in some way, such as cold changing the save for half to fort. That power is ridiculous IMHO, it deals insane damage when augmented, can be altered to be the most effective against whatever you are going up against, and can deal more damage than a meteor swarm. And thats just the strongest of a family of similiar spells that can all be augmented to be nearly as insane. yes I realize that will make it cost a lot of power points. But that would be like allowing arcane casters access to higher level spells or cast more of their highest level spells, and the only draw back being that they cast less. But who cares about casting less when you reduced all oppisition to dust after the first round?
Geethree 05-16-04, 05:55 PM	And the 7th level kineticist power that allows a cone of damage, that by level 13 can be augmented to deal 26d6 damage, of any energy type you choose, and each energy type effects it in some way, such as cold changing the save for half to fort. That doesn't seem correct. You can't spend more points on any given power than your current level. I don't think there's a 7th level power that costs 13 power points that does 26d6 damage.
Mad Miso 05-16-04, 06:17 PM	Ruffles through the SRD I assume you're talking about Energy Cone.........3rd level power, 5 PP's, base 5d6 damage. A 20th level Psion could up it to 20d6 damage at the cost of 20 PP's.......which is more than it cost to manifest a 9th level power. It's not all that impressive for such a high-level character. A 6th level Psion who just learned this power could do a whopping 6d6 with it. Not to mention that it is a kineticist only power, so it's only availible to 1 of the 6 types of Psion.(The type that specializes in, gee, blasting stuff) Furthermore, the fact that low-level spells can still be useful at higher-levels is just part of the class assumptions. Psionic classes can pick any level-power they can access to learn when they level up. Edit: Ahhh.....you're talking about Energy Wave. It's exactly the same as energy cone, except that it's: 1. Availible to all psions 2. 4 Level's Higher. 3. Has a scaling Save DC. 4. Has a much bigger Area of Effect. Regardless, it can only do 13d6 damage at level 13, and 20d6 damage at level 20. See how the Psionic System Works? Sure, Cone is a lower-level power that can do as much damage as wave for the same cost, but's it's still an inferior power.
Ashtar 05-16-04, 09:56 PM	I've been using psionics since 2nd edition (I'm playing Darksun, updated to 3.0 homebrew and now updated again to 3.5 homebrew), but I must say: I HATE PSIONICS ! Now let me explain, each of the core classes need each other, with the Psion (and flavors) not so. They can heal, have offensive, defensive powers, mobility powers, utilitarian. Heck, in 3.0 & 3.5 You have Knock !!! So that took out a heck of a lot of the thief's usefulness. The other thing is that with the point system, a Psion can throw around so many more high level powers compared to a wizard or a sorcerer of the same level (Eg. [3.5] Level 20: 343 PPs (w/o Ab. score bonus) witch equals 20 (!) 9th level powers in a row and still 3 pts to use substenance and not eat or drink the whole day). Basically, I've never found the psi system to be balanced and I find that each sucessive system has gotten worse. I just started used 3.5 and I shudder at the thought of some of the powers (Psionic Revivify is an example that comes to mind. Where else is there a return to life spell at that level, that costs so little and DOESN'T remove a level from the deceased and cost a heck of a lot in material components ? Okay you need to cast it soon, but anyway the PCs will usually stick close to the guy with THAT power!). I also dislike the fact that since 3.0 psi powers just work like magic. I really like the 2nd ed fact that you had to roll to see if you could activate your powers be it a stat check [2.0] or a Mental AC [2.5 psi], which made psionics totally different from magic. Anyway, I hate Psi, but I'm stuck with them since I love the world (Dark Sun) and they are part it. - Ashtar PS: Message to my players: Please don't destroy the Psionatrix so that all Psi are wiped from the face of Athas! You'll make a happy DM ! :D
GSHamster 05-16-04, 10:31 PM	Ashtar: Perhaps you should check out the Psychic's Handbook from Green Ronin (http://www.greenronin.com/cgi-bin/product.cgi?prodid=1306). It's been getting good reviews, and seems to going for a more subtler and toned down version of psi powers. From your post, I gather that you might be interested in such a system.