Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Earthcrosser599 09-05-05, 04:05 AM	Using average gold and all that, who would win?
mbfu3k 09-05-05, 04:22 AM	A 20th level wizard with only gold would probably lose. Especially since the goblins could all pelt the wizard with their gold pieces at the same time and probably do enough damage, on average, to finish him off. But, more seriously, barring any extenuating circumstances and assuming the wizard is not run by a complete moron, the goblins would not be able to touch the wizard, much less have a hope of winning.
katarl 09-05-05, 04:27 AM	The wizard. He can use teleportation to the end of the world, rest for 8 hrs, come back, kill a few thousand more, and repeat. With bottles of thoughts, wands of fireballs, flight spells and area effect death spells, no way he could lose. Goblins swarm, but only 8 can attack at a time. What goblin can hit a 20th level wizards AC? Even flanking gives only a +2. Plus, the mage can just fly out of range, and start a prot. vs missiles. How did you think the Simbul, Ioulaum, and Karsus won all those battles singlehandedly huh? Unfortunately Ebberon doesn't have all-powerful mages, so they'd never win.
Earthcrosser599 09-05-05, 04:42 AM	I'm having a debate with someone who says the goblins can take the wizard hands down. If you can cite specific examples, please do so.
Sapp 09-05-05, 04:45 AM	Give us more background. Are all of the goblins level 1 fighters? Are any of them level 21 wizards?
Gauze Fireforge 09-05-05, 04:55 AM	I'm having a debate with someone who says the goblins can take the wizard hands down. If you can cite specific examples, please do so. I picture the conversation with your friend going like this...(assuming you are both talking about generic goblins out of the MM) You: 20th lvl wizard casts Widened evards black tentacles then tim stop, meteor swarm, meteor swarm, cloud kill yada yada. how are your goblins going to survive when my wizard is 100 meters(fly) in the air with which they cant even see me (improved invis) Friend: they throw LOTS AND LOTS of spears! You: Okay, since they cant even see me, we will presume a fraction of those (say 10) spears comes near to hitting me. With my stone skin, protection from arrows they either aint gunna hit me or do no damage. And what about all the falling spears then landing on your goblin army eh? Friend: :bigeyes: You: Of course I will cast my full complement of offensive spells, Ice storm, lightning bolt, a few more cloud kills and the like, what are your goblins guuna do? Friend: err...throw spears?...into the air... You: :plotting: Well, I will concede that I cant kill them all in one sitting but given time I will always know where they are and will be impervious to any attack they can make Friend: :blush:
Error 401 09-05-05, 06:39 AM	Let's assume the goblins are using crossbows. They only hit on a 20, but they're going to be rolling a fair amount of 20s. From 10,000 goblins, that's 500 hits, of which 25 are crits. So that's 525d6 damage per round, which seems like a lot ... except that a simple Ethereal Jaunt + Transdimentional Spell would prevent it all. Even turning into something with DR 16 or greater would make you invulnerable, and even DR 10 would cut the damage down to a tiny fragment. Really, assuming the Wizard plays it smart, the goblins have no chance. For instance, you could fly overhead while invisible and summon a vrock, which would kill a great deal of goblins before it ran out. Or you could cast Meteor Swarm and eliminate huge numbers if they were close to each-other. Or just use a few well placed Contagion spells to spread plague through them. However, this is assuming one thing ... that the goblins are warrior types. 10,000 1st level Wizards all casting magic missile = 10000d4+10000 force damage, nothing to sneeze at. Of course you could still stop them with proper preparation, but a very overconfident Wizard could possibly be killed by this tactic.
Sir Knight 09-05-05, 07:43 AM	Shield spell will stop all 10000d4+10000 dmg. :)
anarco_rata 09-05-05, 08:23 AM	Shield spell will stop all 10000d4+10000 dmg. :) Yep, but i'll think that 1 guy vs 10.000 goblins would be surrounded, so the shield would only block some missiles. I've always dream of this figth, me beign the wizard...a meteor swar kills hundreds of goblins...is almost like poettry
Lord Ian Stark 09-05-05, 08:44 AM	Goblins win.
Callista 09-05-05, 09:11 AM	It depends on if the Wizard has time to prepare. If he does, the goblins are dead, just because he's capable of casting Time Stop. If they catch him unawares, the sheer number of natural twenties will probably take him down.
Thomar_of_Uointer 09-05-05, 12:04 PM	For instance, you could fly overhead while invisible and summon a vrock, which would kill a great deal of goblins before it ran out. Why summon one when you can summon 1d3 with Summon Monster IX? Dance of Ruin will make short work of any army.
Ringmereth 09-05-05, 12:10 PM	As with all high-level combat: depends on who wins initiative. I don't care how high-level a wizard is-500 crossbow hits are going to kill him if he's not prepared. Given a single round to bring up defenses, though, the wizard will kill them all. Grab Greater Invisibility and Stoneskin and fill the rest of your slots with summoning and area-effect spells, and you're good to go. Also, keep in mind that, if played realistically, those goblins are going to run away screaming after large flaming rocks fall out of the sky and kill a hundred of them in a few moments, lightning zaps dozens more, and a balor shows up at the wizard's service.
Phrennzy 09-05-05, 12:22 PM	Yep, but i'll think that 1 guy vs 10.000 goblins would be surrounded, so the shield would only block some missiles. I've always dream of this figth, me beign the wizard...a meteor swar kills hundreds of goblins...is almost like poettry Shield offers 360 degree protection in 3.5 The goblins could win if they could fight like the mobs back in old Popeye cartoons, forming a giant hammer out of their bodies to rise up and smash the wizard flat. That would work. Or a giant steamroller. Even better. Yeah, I go Goblin Living Steamroller for the win.
Morwen 09-05-05, 12:33 PM	The goblins could win if they could fight like the mobs back in old Popeye cartoons, forming a giant hammer out of their bodies to rise up and smash the wizard flat. That would work. Since there are 10000 of them, I'd suggest using the Swarm rules to run the encounter. Should make things interesting :)
Earthcrosser599 09-05-05, 03:57 PM	The goblins are MM1 statistic goblins.
Earthcrosser599 09-05-05, 03:58 PM	Also, keep in mind that, if played realistically, those goblins are going to run away screaming after large flaming rocks fall out of the sky and kill a hundred of them in a few moments, lightning zaps dozens more, and a balor shows up at the wizard's service. Is it a victory for the wizard if his enemies retreat?
Callahan 09-05-05, 04:13 PM	I picture the conversation with your friend going like this...(assuming you are both talking about generic goblins out of the MM) You: 20th lvl wizard casts Widened evards black tentacles then tim stop, meteor swarm, meteor swarm, cloud kill yada yada. how are your goblins going to survive when my wizard is 100 meters(fly) in the air with which they cant even see me (improved invis) Friend: they throw LOTS AND LOTS of spears! You: Okay, since they cant even see me, we will presume a fraction of those (say 10) spears comes near to hitting me. With my stone skin, protection from arrows they either aint gunna hit me or do no damage. And what about all the falling spears then landing on your goblin army eh? Friend: :bigeyes: You: Of course I will cast my full complement of offensive spells, Ice storm, lightning bolt, a few more cloud kills and the like, what are your goblins guuna do? Friend: err...throw spears?...into the air... You: :plotting: Well, I will concede that I cant kill them all in one sitting but given time I will always know where they are and will be impervious to any attack they can make Friend: :blush: Goblin commander: Throw your spears at him! Goblin soldier: But we can't even see him! Goblin commander: Well throw them up any way! We're bound to hit him! *goblins throw a volley of spears in to the air* Goblin soldier: OH NO! They're falling down!!! *thousands of goblins die from falling spears* Goblin commander: Wow! What a powerful wizard!
Ogre4Hire 09-05-05, 04:35 PM	A Heightened (4th level) Extended Fly+Iron Body+Extended Lesser Globe of Invulnerability= Goblins can't do jack to attacking wizard. All he has to do after that is simpy bombard them with Cloudkills for instant death. Even if he loses init, the goblins can't "realistically" make more than about 100 attacks on him, and with all the magical equipment he ought to have on him, he'll survive and just cast Timestop so he can set up his bombardment. Or he could just use Shapechange and Iron Body and turn into the Tarrasque that is now possessing DR 15 Adamantine and Immunity to Crits thanks to the Iron Body and smash the :censored: out of the fools.
CryoSilver 09-05-05, 04:35 PM	If the goblins go first, they win. If the wizard goes first, he wins. Simple as that.
Quarterstaff 09-05-05, 04:44 PM	At level 20 with a proper build it is incredibly one sided. Especially if he gets level 20 gold. A ring of protection from arrows dosent cost too much. So he flys up and they cant touch him. He rains death from above, especially if he has the dual wand feat from Complete arcane. he would have a backpack full of wands of fireballs and chain lighteing, making him capable of 3 fireballs or cloud kills or chain lightenings a turn. Or he could wish, for the sudden appearance of the Tarrasque, more preferable 100 feet above the goblins :devil:
Nidair 09-05-05, 04:48 PM	My groovy solution: - Round 1: Shapechange into a Nalfeshnee & Cast Quickened Shield (against any mages). - Round 2: Cast Fireshield. hehe. - Round 3: Cast Expeditious Retreat, or if you feel like it, quickened Expeditios Retreat & Haste. Then run, threaten thousands of attacks of opportunity (which do nothing against your DR) and watch a lot of stupid goblins die. Goblins do nil against damage reduction (and shield)
Sapp 09-05-05, 04:53 PM	If the goblins go first, they win. If the wizard goes first, he wins. Simple as that. Tell me what kind of wizard doesn't spot 10,000 goblins in advance. What kind of wizard would be that stupid? Initiative assumes that neither knows about the presence of the other. The wizard should have saw the battle coming from a mile away. Even if 10,000 goblins all got the jump on the wizard at the same time... Tell me what kind of a dumbass wizard doesn't have contingency items and enchantments rammed up the ass. The 10,000 Goblins are just target practice. Very good Exp. Let me see, 10,000 Goblins. Assuming 3 Goblins is CR 1... That's about 3,333 CR 1's. About 1,666 CR 3's (if we round down). 833 CR 5's (if we round down). 415 CR 7's 207 CR 9's 103 CR 11's 51 CR 13's 25 CR 15's 12 CR 17's 6 CR 19's 3 CR 21's 1 CR 23's. This was a quick estimation with a lot of rounding down. The CR for this encounter by RAW is around 24... Never have I seen such an easy CR 24 encounter. Free exp. Very nice find.
Tenzhi 09-05-05, 04:54 PM	The Goblins will win. They'll quietly set up camp and when the wizard shows up they'll fire volley after volley of kobold sorcerors at him from their catapults. This will just annoy him, of course, causing him to rain destruction on them. His rain of destruction will generate enough noise to awaken the Epic Dragon living in the mountain the goblins craftily chose to camp on. The dragon will eventually eat the wizard for waking it up, even if it has to track him across time and space. Dragons are cranky when they don't get their beauty sleep, and it's a crankiness that lasts centuries.
Ogre4Hire 09-05-05, 05:08 PM	:heehee Best Goblins Win scenerio I've seen so far. Of course, if the wizard was in fact a Sorcerer, he'd win because the dragon would be Grandma and she'd be mad that someone was picking on her favorite relative. :dragon:
CryoSilver 09-05-05, 05:11 PM	Who said this was anything but a hypothetical situation? Anyway, the wizard would get 0 XP for killing the goblins, because their individual Crs are morethan 8 less than his level. But by the numbers, the goblins would, in one round, deal enough damage to kill the wizard by the hseer number of nat 20s that would be rolled. If the wizard went first, that would be negated by whatever means the wizard decided would be expedient, whereupon he would devote the rest of his time to killing the little buggers.
Sapp 09-05-05, 05:45 PM	Hmm... I think I see what you're saying. This hypothetical situation includes a naked wizard against 10,000 armed goblins. It seems rather unfair, so grant me this: The wizard was at least smart enough (20+ Int) to have a contingency teleport that's triggered "whenever he would be caught naked, up against a legion of enemies, before the battle even begins." After he's teleported to safety, he would: kick himself for being caught with his pants down (literally), proceed to arm/prepare himself appropriately, find the goblins, and eradicate every one of them.
The Voice of Sauron 09-05-05, 07:31 PM	A battle of 10000 goblins against one 20th-level wizard? This is a fight that probably wouldn't even happen. The reason is simple: if you've got 10000 goblins all moving in one direction, some BBEG is almost certainly behind them. So the wizard, realizing that killing 10000 goblins would be a waste of his time but a whole :censored: load of experience for a lot of other people, teleports from throne room to throne room spreading the alarm; let the kings, their swarms of conventional troops, and a few mid-level adventurers deal with the goblins. Meanwhile the wizard busily gathers his companions from whatever party he was in on the way up to 20th level, and they go looking for the BBEG. Of course, he does send his apprentices along with the army to keep an eye on it for him.
eclipticavatar 09-05-05, 08:02 PM	Why fight them when you can enslave them? :evillaugh
PhaedrusXY 09-05-05, 08:11 PM	The goblins are MM1 statistic goblins.Then the wizard will win, hands down. Permanent Protection from Arrows + Contingency (if I'm attacked, Teleport to...) insures it. Even if the wizard gets surprized while sleeping (by 10,000 goblins! LOL!), he will still win.
Fenris Frost 09-05-05, 09:19 PM	Why fight them when you can enslave them? :evillaugh Why fight indeed? 10,000 goblin minions conquering in my glorious name sounds good to me.
CryoSilver 09-05-05, 09:30 PM	Because the next level 20 wizard will blow them up, of course!
VirgilCaine 09-05-05, 09:33 PM	You: :plotting: Well, I will concede that I cant kill them all in one sitting but given time I will always know where they are and will be impervious to any attack they can make They could go underground...into their caves...
Sapp 09-05-05, 09:35 PM	After careful consideration, I believe the Epic Dragon Tenzhi mentioned would be a factor. The wizard would probably want to just leave the goblins alone. Killing 10,000 goblins for no apparent reason (What? You actually thought level 1 goblins could harm a 20th level wizard? Hah!) is very ill-mannered. It would surely irritate any Epic Dragons who use those goblins as a food supply (10,000 makes for a good meal). How would you like it if I spat in your food? Exactly.
Sapp 09-05-05, 09:36 PM	They could go underground...into their caves... Ugh... what a waste of spells and time, but (if he REALLY wanted to kill those blasted goblins)... Scrying.
Waldorf 09-05-05, 10:18 PM	As usual, it depends who wins initiative; that is, unless you wanna be some uber munchkin that walks in the door with 100+ buffs active. If goblins win initiative, then you can count on hundreds of 20s being rolled. And as we all know, those automatically hit. Bye Mr. Wizard
Ringmereth 09-05-05, 10:23 PM	Why fight indeed? 10,000 goblin minions conquering in my glorious name sounds good to me. Quite so. Send them to wear down a rival 20th level wizard, and then teleport in and finish him off with minimal risk.
Marchen 09-05-05, 10:42 PM	Wizard gets charged/surrounded by 8 goblins. They all prepare actions that if he starts casting a spell, they attack. All others with bows in ranger do the same. He probably won't get a spell off that way.
LordHell 09-05-05, 10:57 PM	Wizard gets charged/surrounded by 8 goblins. They all prepare actions that if he starts casting a spell, they attack. All others with bows in ranger do the same. He probably won't get a spell off that way. ....assuming he is visible, and in range of all 10,000 goblins... a very big assumption. You still have the probability he is shaped changed into something like an Pit Fiend that has 15 DR, meaning that even if he suffers 500 critical hits, only 1.56% of those are going to do 1 damage to him (16 damage from a double 8 critical, minues his DR, is 1 damage), meaning he'll take a whopping 7.8 damage, 5 of which is regenerated. A pitfiend also has 27 con, meaning the Wizard (assuming no con increasing gear) will have 211hps on average. Unless the Goblins are armed with Silver or Good weapons, which is highly unlikely, it will take them 75 rounds on average to kill the Wizard - assuming he does nothing and kills none of them.
Sapp 09-05-05, 11:01 PM	Wizard gets charged/surrounded by 8 goblins. They all prepare actions that if he starts casting a spell, they attack. All others with bows in ranger do the same. He probably won't get a spell off that way. ....assuming he is visible, and in range of all 10,000 goblins... a very big assumption. <SNIP> @ LordHell I wouldn't bother. He probably just didn't read through the thread. This has been gone over... ... and over...
Manyfist 09-05-05, 11:14 PM	A lvl 20 Prepared Wizard, Hands down he'll win. Why? - Time Stop - Teleport - Summon Monster IX ((Coutal (LG), Leonal (NG), Celestial Roc (CG), Elemental Elder (N), Devil, Barb (LE), Fiendish Monsterous Scorpion (NE), Night Hag (NE), Hezrou (CE)) - Fly - Enlarged, Maximized Fireball or Control Weather... What's better to kill alot of Goblins than to let a Tornado do it? :D
StevenO 09-05-05, 11:28 PM	In a straight up fight the Wizard should win. This assumes both sides are properly prepared and completely aware of the other side. As we add more uncertainty however the odds for the goblins start improving. Catch the wizard somewere he can't close himself of with magic and then slowly sending squads of goblins to wear it down. If we assume that the wizard has to stop these goblins (can't retreat/rest/return) the goblins can just send sqads of say 20 (500 squads) to soak up the wizards attacks, wear down his defenses, and make him use up all his spells. A spellless wizard 20 is still a fight for first level goblin warriors but he likely can't fight them all day. If the wizard gets standard resources do all the goblins get it too? If that's the case the goblins may be able to buy their way around many of the wizards barriers.
LordHell 09-06-05, 12:05 AM	LOL, unless the Goblins have access to Dimensional Lock/Dimensional Anchor and have complete surprize over the Wizard - there is no way he will be stuck facing them. This guy is a 20th level Wizard for crying out loud. He could probably Shapechange into a Pit Fiend and melee them all to death, or Gate in a real Pitfiend and have it go to town with its Quickened Fireballs at will.
Phrennzy 09-06-05, 12:48 AM	Worst thread ever.
pres_man 09-06-05, 01:31 AM	As soon as the wizard leaves in whatever fashion (teleport or whatever), the goblins win. That's how the xp table works. :D
Nuntius128 09-06-05, 02:22 AM	Tell me what kind of wizard doesn't spot 10,000 goblins in advance. What kind of wizard would be that stupid? The kind that doesn't have Spot/Listen as class skills, perhaps? :rolleyes: If any of those Goblins happened to have 1 level in their preferred class, Rogue, there would easily be enough that could Hide/Move Silently in order to become an immediate threat(ESPECIALLY if they won Initiative, that 1d6 Sneak damage will become lethal with the Wiz's 20d4 HP). Regardless, they'll have +5 to Hide/Move Silently EACH, and you're bound to roll a few auto-failing ones, Rogues or not. I think its also safe to assume that it should have been said that the Wizard were a Human. If the Wizard were an Elf, for example it'd have an average of 20 HP, correct(without taking into account magic items, which probably wouldn't have been spent keeping those all-important HP up, and, instead, focusing more on uber-izing your magics)? So, all those 10,000 Goblins would have to do would be to connect with a grand total of 10 attacks(assuming we were still rolling by averages), because the Goblin is listed as wielding a Morningstar, which would do 1d6-1 damage, averaging to 2 damage. That means that you'll have 9,990 attacks in which you can feel free to miss if ya really wanted to(maybe its a Goblin holiday?). Then you've gotten the Wizard to 0 HP, where it'd be easy to remove the remaining 10 HP to kill him. And, honestly, how much buffing will the Wizard be able to do in that first crucial round? Its safe to assume that each Goblin is(according to the MM listing) carrying a Morningstar and a Javelin, so if your first round is spent flying, and you managed to beat EVERY goblin in initiative, they'll just draw Javelins and chuck em. I think that the Wizard stands a good chance for a few rounds, probably much longer, depending on spells prepared. Ahh, there's the clinch: would the Wizard have been expecting to fight 10k Goblins when preparing spells? Or would the Wiz have though "I'd like to make some cash, so I'll make some Divinations today"? I hate to tell ya, but Analyze Dweomer won't even kill one Goblin, no matter how many times you intend to cast it. Course, that's where it would become important for the Wizard to have Wands of Fireball and Chain Lightning. But I'm still in high favor of the Goblins winning, by numbers. Because numbers increase odds of those Goblins rolling more 20's, and the Wiz rolling 1's, IMHO.
Earthcrosser599 09-06-05, 05:14 AM	Worst thread ever. Awwww...
Earthcrosser599 09-06-05, 05:17 AM	And, honestly, how much buffing will the Wizard be able to do in that first crucial round? Its safe to assume that each Goblin is(according to the MM listing) carrying a Morningstar and a Javelin, so if your first round is spent flying, and you managed to beat EVERY goblin in initiative, they'll just draw Javelins and chuck em. If you Time Stop you can do quite a bit... But I'm starting to show my biased on this. I'm a bit rusty on my high level characters but this cleared alot of that up.
LordHell 09-06-05, 05:41 AM	It's completely illogical, ludicrus, and against any form of sense, common or otherwise, that an army of 10,000 can wander around completey undetected without any form of magic, and attack one single creature unawares. Even if the Wizard had 1 Wisdom (In which case he probably wouldn't have survived to 20th level by himself) he would see and hear them coming a mile away, make that days away. A Wizard of that level wouldnt even WALK around or sleep out in the open alone. Likely he would teleport from A to B if he came out of his tower at all, and it certainly wouldn't be alone. At the very least, if he just happened SO HAPPENED to be sleeping out in the middle of somewhere and DIDNT REALIZE there were 10,000 goblins nearby - a notion so ludicrous I think that it almost does a 360 and ends up genius - he would AT THE VERY LEAST be using Rope Trick to rest in. More like fricken Magnificent Mansion! Nuntis reading posts like yours blows me away, and not in a good way. I feel it would be against the rules of the forum to say what I really thought of it.
SnowbearK 09-06-05, 06:03 AM	It really should be said anyways, LordHell. OP's friend & Nuntius>> :rolleyes: The breakdowns have been given and examples cited. By the RAW, the goblins lose EVERY FREAKIN' TIME -- note, by the RAW, you cannot use Swarm rules for the goblins (though if you could, the wiz is most definitely slaughtered). By common sense, barring DR on the Wizard's part, the wizard dies, every time. There's just too many. With DR 16 though, the wizard gets to laugh at the gobbos and can draw his dagger and not waste a single spell (besides achieving the DR) on them. Heck, he could lay down and doze off in the middle of the fight and wake up refreshed and ready to beat on them some more.
Derren S. 09-06-05, 06:36 AM	Any intelligent wizards wins. And when you use mob/swarm rules the goblins are even more useless as the can't use ranged weapons.
Donraj 09-06-05, 07:17 AM	The wizard wins every time if he's even remotely prepared, barring surprise, mistakes and accidents. And unlike, say, a 20th level fighter against a thousand kobolds it really doesn't strain credibility. The goblins stand roughly the same chance that a Roman legion would against a moden American bomber. They just can't effectively attack if he stays out of range. Course, there's always some opening and there's always a chance a few of them might manage to grab ahold of him and drag him down to be ripped apart, but if he's smart and doesn't make any mistakes, yes, he can do it. I would question whether he can hunt them down and kill them all if they flee, especially if they try to ambush or trap him while he's at it.
Sapp 09-06-05, 10:20 AM	As soon as the wizard leaves in whatever fashion (teleport or whatever), the goblins win. That's how the xp table works. :D Would you honestly give exp to the goblins for something like that? For the wizard, leaving this battle is not the same kind of retreat you'd expect from a half-dead orc scrambling to run from your party in order to live. It's more like an Elder Wyrm Prismatic Prismatic Dragon who didn't notice your party, and had an appointment to maintain, elsewhere. Would any sane DM award you exp for the second scenario/"retreat"? The wizard is not teleporting to retreat. He just noticed that he was naked, in the wilderness, surrounded by a mob of goblins. It's an embarassing situation that he does not want his colleagues to see him in. That's ALL. He probably didn't even notice the goblins, as they are so far beneath his notice. He's more worried people could actually see him wearing standard clothing (plebeians' clothing). He's embarassed, and the contingency teleport that we all know he was intelligent enough to prepare had kicked in, sparing him further embarassment. Again, I think it's highly unfair that some of you would ASSUME that 10,000 goblins are so easily organized and prepared/armed, while a 20+ Intelligent 20th level wizard is caught completely unawares without any contingent teleport, no protections from non-magical weapons, etc. If you all REALLY think want to use that scenario, then yes, 10,000 goblins can EASILY defeat a 20th level wizard who: - has practically exhausted all of his spells. - is naked (not armed, no scrolls, no wands, no magical robe, etc, etc). - was stupid enough to travel by foot and land himself smack in the middle of 10,000 goblins. - somehow managed to fail his spot/listen check against each one of the 10,000 goblins. Even if you used mob rules, that's a colossal creature he just missed a spot/listen check on. - doesn't have any divination spells/items. - travels alone. - actually bothers leaving his tower to waste time, travelling by foot. up against goblins who: - are completely organized, even for a group of 10,000. - are all armed. - can all simultaneously attack the wizard. Each one knows exactly where the wizard is within the mob of 9,999 other goblins. - make absolutely no sound. - are invisible, and somehow are immune to true seeing or other ways to detect invisibility. - have true sight. - can run fast enough to completely surround a wizard before the wizard casts his first spell. - will definitely make criticals out of the few that actually manage to see and hit the wizard. - will do enough damage to break a 20th level wizard's concentration. - won't be accidentally hitting each other as they aim their ranged weapons at the wizard. - can fly. - etc. - etc. Actually, I'll admit. For the people who actually think the 10,000 goblins have a chance against a 20th level wizard, those goblins probably could win... against a 20th level wizard run by YOU. Against a 20th level wizard run by the rest of us? (The ones who think the goblins stand no chance in Hell?) Not a chance.
pres_man 09-06-05, 10:36 AM	Would you honestly give exp to the goblins for something like that? For the wizard, leaving this battle is not the same kind of retreat you'd expect from a half-dead orc scrambling to run from your party in order to live. It's more like an Elder Wyrm Prismatic Prismatic Dragon who didn't notice your party, and had an appointment to maintain, elsewhere. Would any sane DM award you exp for the second scenario/"retreat"? The wizard is not teleporting to retreat. He just noticed that he was naked, in the wilderness, surrounded by a mob of goblins. It's an embarassing situation that he does not want his colleagues to see him in. That's ALL. He probably didn't even notice the goblins, as they are so far beneath his notice. He's more worried people could actually see him wearing standard clothing (plebeians' clothing). He's embarassed, and the contingency teleport that we all know he was intelligent enough to prepare had kicked in, sparing him further embarassment. If the wizard withdraws due to being almost out of hp or because he is almost out of spells (having used them to kill the 1st 9,900 goblins), he still fails the encounter. You withdraw from an encounter you lose it. Them's the rules. Teleporting away with your nose in the air, "This is below my abilities", doesn't mean you don't still fail the encounter. You either overcome the encounter or you don't. Withdrawing means you don't, it is that simple. As for the possibility, imagine a wizard stepping out of his Magnificent mansion, smack-dab into the center of a goblin army that came up during the night.
Sapp 09-06-05, 10:45 AM	The Magnificent Mansion was a joke used in jest by LordHell. The wizard has enough spells to force the 10,000 goblins to retreat. I'm saying the wizard's contingency teleport would teleport him away in a situation where he was smack in the middle of 10,000 goblins with no preparation, as you seem to love assuming. Of course, you may be right. The wizard could just die of laughter. It is so much more likely that the wizard would come to the battle prepared, in which case, the wizard wins, hands down. EDIT: Oh, and nice attempt to turn my argument around. I said the goblins wouldn't get exp for the encounter. The wizard doesn't win anything, but neither do the goblins. I didn't say the wizard would win for teleporting away, but I did imply that he would win after he comes back (this time prepared).
pres_man 09-06-05, 11:07 AM	Actually neither group is going to get any xp at all (see xp tables in the DMG). My point was, the way xp is decided is by "overcoming" an encounter. If you withdraw, you don't overcome the encounter. Using this as the basis of what it means to "win" an encounter, then if you withdraw you don't "win" the encounter which means the individual(s) who did not withdraw, do "win" the encounter. The question was, who would win? Most likely the goblins will win since the wizard, even prepared would have a hard time killing all 10,000 before he ran out of spells. All the goblins have to do is try to stay alive, the wizard actually has to try to kill them all.
Ringmereth 09-06-05, 12:06 PM	Actually neither group is going to get any xp at all (see xp tables in the DMG). My point was, the way xp is decided is by "overcoming" an encounter. If you withdraw, you don't overcome the encounter. Using this as the basis of what it means to "win" an encounter, then if you withdraw you don't "win" the encounter which means the individual(s) who did not withdraw, do "win" the encounter. The question was, who would win? Most likely the goblins will win since the wizard, even prepared would have a hard time killing all 10,000 before he ran out of spells. All the goblins have to do is try to stay alive, the wizard actually has to try to kill them all. But since it's not a matter of XP, there's nothing preventing the wizard from unloading a full compliment of fireballs and chain lightnings, shapechanging, gating in something to kill them, etc, then teleporting away to rest and do it all again the next day. Simply put, there's no way the goblins will be able to kill the wizard if he's anywhere near ready, and realistically, he will be. And to those claiming the wizard loses if he teleports away, try telling that to whoever organized 10,000 goblins to kill a wizard and ended up accomplishing nothing but making the wizard waste a teleport spell and whatever offensive magic he cared to throw at the mob. Not much of a victory, IMO, and as stated above, no one gets XP here.
Nyarlathotep 09-06-05, 12:17 PM	IF the wizard is stupid enough to sit there and fight it out, the goblins ought to win, es even if they hit only on a natural 20, 10,000 goblins means a LOT of natural 20's. Of course, any 20th level wizard worth his salt ought to have upwards of a dozen ways to get OUT of the situation, teleport, etheral jaunt, dimension door, fly, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Then he can come back and cloudkill/meteor swarm/Ice Storm/you-name-it the little buggers into oblivion
Marchen 09-06-05, 01:20 PM	Here's the real answer. I'm the DM. Me to the wizard's player: Your dead. Nobody fights an army alone and lives. Roll new character please.
Sapp 09-06-05, 02:14 PM	Then you have a poor grasp of what it means to be epic. I'm not going to get in to the whole "my d&d is better than yours" debate, but honestly, that's what epic characters do. Elminster CAN wage a ware against an army and win. The Simbul alone challenges an army of competent wizards (not just level 1 goblins). Need I go on? Level 20 only borders on Epic, but it is still more than enough to take out 10,000 goblins. A well-prepared wizard will not run out of spells. He still has wands, rods, etc. Let me see what I can come up with... How about an Eternal Wand of Summon Swarm. A very modest item that only allows casting of a 2nd level spell, yet it would easily win the battle for the wizard, who is conveniently flying hundreds of feet in the air, outside the reach of the goblins. (EDIT: Some idiot is probably thinking, "yeah but the swarm will always die before reaching the goblins. The goblins have ranged..." without bothering to consider that what goes up must come down. Since we're arguing semantics anyway, I'll keep it safe and simple by changing the wand to an Eternal Wand of Acid Arrow. The range should be long enough for that spell. Any spell really. This was just to show that a wizard doesn't really ever run out of options. Wizards are much better at crafting items than sorcerers. If this was a sorcerer, I MIGHT be more understanding about the stupidity of being surrounded by 10,000 goblins with no contingencies... plans or spells. A wizard with 20+ intelligence? Nope. I don't see it.) Sure, the goblins can run and hide... but why is it that you conveniently allow the goblins to run and hide when you won't even let the wizard teleport away for a while to better prepare himself? @ pres_man Let me (again) remind you what you wrote: as soon as the wizard leaves in whatever fashion (teleport or whatever), the goblins win. That's how the xp table works. :D @ Nyarlathotep No, the wizard would not be an idiot for risking his life to fight this army. He's not risking anything. There's no way he can lose unless he was being run by (*ahem*) some of the people on this thread. However, he WOULD be an idiot for actually wasting his time, energy, and reagents on an encounter which offers such little reward. However, as some of the people arguing in favor for the goblin army have stated, this is a hypothetical situation, in which the wizard is forced to kill the goblins. In that case, the wizard wins. Here's the real answer. I'm the DM. Me to the wizard's player: Your dead. Nobody fights an army alone and lives. Roll new character please. @ Marchen Now that's very arbitrary way to DM. Think about it. You're the DM. You're the one who put him in this ridiculous hypothetical situation, being surrounded by 10,000 goblins, caught unawares... somehow. Now that he chooses to fight the goblins because he knows he can beat them... you tell him that he loses? Without listening to his plan? That's terrible. If I was the wizard, I'd just leave. Good day.
Nightbane 09-06-05, 03:04 PM	Wizard wins with one spell. Apocalypse from the Sky. 10d6 fire, acid,or sonic damage to everything within 200 miles of the wizard.
Iver Gearsham 09-06-05, 03:58 PM	Here's the real answer. I'm the DM. Me to the wizard's player: Your dead. Nobody fights an army alone and lives. Roll new character please. Remember this is an army of cr 1/3 gbblins and that means no leaders and limited tactics. The wizard was given 20 th level starting gp for equipment with this alone she is all most asured of victory. Bracers of Armor +5 with Heavy Fortification added means no crits no sneak attack. Amulet Nat Armor +5 Manual of Dex +5 Gloves of Dex +6 Ring of Sustanance means she can fight for 22 hours in a 24 hour day if she likes melee. Manual of Health +5 and a Perafit of Con +6 Starting Con of 10 thats 21 Con or 100 hp for bonus Class hp 123 what an unlucky sot! or average 144. With her Huge Shield Guardian (Shield Guardian is Equipment) soaking up the damage for Loseing Initiative alowing her to Consentration cast Protection from Arrows/StoneSkin in whatever order is approprate. and the goblins lose the fight.
SilverFoxKnows 09-06-05, 04:42 PM	According to the SRD, 400 Goblins are led by 20 1st level Sgt.s, 1-2 Lt.s of 4th or 5th level and a 6th to 8th level "leader". Multiply by 25. Now we're talking about 500 level 1 Gobs, 25-50 level 4-5 Gobs and 25 Gobs of level 6-8. That would make a big difference. And if the original poster actually means 10,000 Gobbos will march without leadership then he might have well said "Who would win Mighty Mouse or Superman?"
OctoberRaven 09-06-05, 05:03 PM	If it's an EEEEEEVIL wizard, he could just cast Wish to make all the goblins explode into tiny fine bits of flesh and blood so he can collect some of the blood as an offering/sacrifice/what-have-you. And dance while the blood and flesh rains down on him. Mind you, it would be an evil dance, so it'd probably the Macarena. Seriously though, the Wizard wins. Unless it's my cousin playing the wizard.
Sapp 09-06-05, 05:14 PM	double post
Sapp 09-06-05, 05:16 PM	According to the SRD, 400 Goblins are led by 20 1st level Sgt.s, 1-2 Lt.s of 4th or 5th level and a 6th to 8th level "leader". Multiply by 25. Now we're talking about 500 level 1 Gobs, 25-50 level 4-5 Gobs and 25 Gobs of level 6-8. That would make a big difference. And if the original poster actually means 10,000 Gobbos will march without leadership then he might have well said "Who would win Mighty Mouse or Superman?" That's what I asked too. I asked about the background of the situation (class levels of the goblins). The OP explicitly said all of them are level 1 goblins, like the one in the Monster Manual v3.5. Directly taken from there. Don't be disrespecting Mighty Mouse. It's more like a fight between a colony of ants and a human. If the human was in a vegetative state, devoid of intelligence, then the ants would kill and eat him. With any more than plant-like intelligence, the human would simply roll over and crush the entire colony. (Now, he probably won't kill the entire colony, some may have dug their way underground, but rest assured, he wins.) EDIT: NOT Fire ants, army ants, or african driver ants! If you really want me to be specific I mean the oligomyrmex yamatonis.
pres_man 09-06-05, 06:02 PM	**rubs eyes** Just to nitpick for a moment: Bracers of Armor +5 with Heavy Fortification added means no crits no sneak attack. Bracers of armor give an armor bonus, this does not mean they are armor (just like TWD gives a shield bonus for the dagger in your off-hand, but does not make the dagger a shield). Bracers of armor are a wonderous item, so you can not put an armor ability (heavy fortification) on them, since they are not armor. Return to your regularly scheduled silliness. @ pres_man Let me (again) remind you what you wrote: Exactly, if the wizard leaves the goblins win. This does not mean in the future the wizard can not return and finish the job and win. Example: 1st level party comes across an orc. The rogue pokes the orc and does one point of damage. The orc runs away. Party has "won" the encounter and so gets full xp for defeating the orc (who they may again defeat in the future, or not). Same party runs into a wizard. The wizard casts a magic missile at the party sorcerer, who just cast shield. The wizard having used his spell, books it to prepare better for their next encounter. Party has "won" the encounter and so gets full xp for defeating the wizard (who they may again defeat in the future, or not). See, if you foe runs, you win. That's how it is set up in the DMG. You get xp for winning, you don't win because you get xp. In the example if the wizard leaves, the goblins win. Notice, I didn't say the wizard lost. He just didn't win.
Sapp 09-06-05, 06:14 PM	Example: 1st level party comes across an orc. The rogue pokes the orc and does one point of damage. The orc runs away. Party has "won" the encounter and so gets full xp for defeating the orc (who they may again defeat in the future, or not). Same party runs into a wizard. The wizard casts a magic missile at the party sorcerer, who just cast shield. The wizard having used his spell, books it to prepare better for their next encounter. Party has "won" the encounter and so gets full xp for defeating the wizard (who they may again defeat in the future, or not). See, if you foe runs, you win. That's how it is set up in the DMG. You get xp for winning, you don't win because you get xp. In the example if the wizard leaves, the goblins win. Notice, I didn't say the wizard lost. He just didn't win. Sorry to all, I know the post almost directly above mine, so it does seem rather silly of me to quote it, but it's so ridiculous it needs to be repeated in case y'all start wondering if it's real. @ pres_man Again, you are assuming that the wizard IS unprepared for the battle and DOES need to teleport away. I already gave a simple reason why a prepared wizard will never run out of spells. Eternal wands make sure of that and they are very cheap for a 20th level wizard to make (or buy). In the case that it is unprepared, it does not engage in combat. It simply teleports away to prepare and then comes back to engage. You wouldn't give exp to players for chasing a goblin and FAILING to catch it, would you? Party has "won" the encounter and so gets full xp for defeating... In the example if the wizard leaves, the goblins win. Notice, I didn't say the wizard lost. He just didn't win. Oh wait, you WOULD! However, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the rest of the intelligent viewers of this thread. The rest of us would not award exp.
Nuntius128 09-06-05, 06:19 PM	Its easier just to agree with Phrennzy. This is a kinda stupid thread. Everyone starts rule-lawyering, and then it stops being recreational conversation.
LordHell 09-06-05, 06:23 PM	Bah - Not worth it
LordHell 09-06-05, 06:27 PM	Its easier just to agree with Phrennzy. This is a kinda stupid thread. Everyone starts rule-lawyering, and then it stops being recreational conversation. Tsk tsk tsk, silly rules getting in the way. It's so much easier to argue 'Nyah nyah my army beats your Wizard! So there!' isn't it?
pres_man 09-06-05, 06:28 PM	Sorry to all, I know the post almost directly above mine, so it does seem rather silly of me to quote it, but it's so ridiculous it needs to be repeated in case y'all start wondering if it's real. @ pres_man Again, you are assuming that the wizard IS unprepared for the battle and DOES need to teleport away. I already gave a simple reason why a prepared wizard will never run out of spells. Eternal wands make sure of that and they are very cheap for a 20th level wizard to make (or buy). In the case that it is unprepared, it does not engage in combat. It simply teleports away to prepare and then comes back to engage. You wouldn't give exp to players for chasing a goblin and FAILING to catch it, would you? Oh wait, you WOULD! However, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the rest of the intelligent viewers of this thread. The rest of us would not award exp. Wow! Talk about somebody getting a little hot under the collar. Perhaps you need to take a chill pill there dude. 1. I am not assuming anything. The wizard may be totally prepared. If he starts killing them and then gets bored and leaves, goblins win. If he finds he didn't prepare as well has he could have and decides to leave, goblins win. If he kills all the goblins, or enough that the rest flee, then ... wait for it... HE WINS! 2. As for giving credit for a goblin getting away. If the challenge is to catch the goblin (he has something the party wants), then no, they don't get the xp. If the challenge is to stop the goblin that is attack a group of halflings, then yes I would give them the xp. See xp for the challenge. I hope that there are enough intelligent people on this thread that they would be able to understand what the challenge is, and give the xp accordingly.
Iver Gearsham 09-06-05, 06:30 PM	**rubs eyes** Just to nitpick for a moment: Quote: Originally Posted by Iver Gearsham Bracers of Armor +5 with Heavy Fortification added means no crits no sneak attack. Bracers of armor give an armor bonus, this does not mean they are armor (just like TWD gives a shield bonus for the dagger in your off-hand, but does not make the dagger a shield). Bracers of armor are a wonderous item, so you can not put an armor ability (heavy fortification) on them, since they are not armor. Return to your regularly scheduled silliness. It is based on Mage Armor that does not stack with any other armor as it is armor and acording to page 130 of the Arms and Equipment Guide book you can put any armor power into Bracers which are armor by themselves you still need to follow the power limits of AC pluses and power pluses though. If you go by the Three book RAW you are correct but there was no such restriction on this discourse to begin with so mind your maners.
Sapp 09-06-05, 06:34 PM	@ pres_man Right, by your logic, I should be giving exp to the coward who runs, hides, and survives an encounter while the rest of his party is annihilated. Obviously, his only goal was to keep himself alive. Full exp for the encounter! Whereas, the monster, who left the scene because it was too bored to look for the coward who ran (or simply forgot about him), gets no exp. Ok then. You win the thread. I'm certainly not going to waste effort trying to convince you when I'm sure I've convinced enough people. EDIT: Actually, I apologize to the others. That was rather unfair of me. Obviously, not many of you needed convincing in the first place! Again, apologies.
pres_man 09-06-05, 06:36 PM	**rubs eyes** Just to nitpick for a moment: It is based on Mage Armor that does not stack with any other armor as it is armor and acording to page 130 of the Arms and Equipment Guide book you can put any armor power into Bracers which are armor by themselves you still need to follow the power limits of AC pluses and power pluses though. If you go by the Three book RAW you are correct but there was no such restriction on this discourse to begin with so mind your maners. The common assumption on any kind of message board like this should be that unless otherwise stated, we are talking about the RAW. This is not bad manners to point out that something is not possible based on the RAW. If you want to allow something base on an additional text and/or splatbook, that is fine, but make sure you justify it saying, "Assuming this text is allowed then ..." If you follow this rule of only assuming the RAW unless otherwise explicitely stated then we all can stay out of arguments that are really just based on people's individual houserules.
pres_man 09-06-05, 06:48 PM	by your logic, I should be giving exp to the coward who runs, hides, and survives an encounter while the rest of his party is annihilated. Obviously, his only goal was to keep himself alive. Full exp for the encounter! Whereas, the monster, who left the scene because it was too bored to look for the coward who ran (or simply forgot about him), gets no exp. Well, first off, monsters don't get xp as such. Its all in the DMG (or is the MM, can't remember for certain at the moment). But if the goal was to survive (they were told by an advisor, "don't try to fight just hide till it gets bored and leaves.") then I would give the survivor xp for overcoming the challenge (notice that does not necessarily mean the CR of the creature). If the challenge was to defeat the creature, then no xp. As I said, it all depends on what the challenge is. Ok then. You win the thread. I'm certainly not going to waste effort trying to convince you when I'm sure I've convinced enough people. It wasn't really about "winning", I just don't really understand why you took a joking comment and suddenly exploded on it. Frankly, I think the suggestion to make them your followers was the best suggestion for the wizard to win. EDIT: Actually, I apologize to the others. That was rather unfair of me. Obviously, not many of you needed convincing in the first place! Again, apologies. I think most of us saw this as a joke, not sure why you decided to take it so seriously. But good gaming to you.
Sapp 09-06-05, 06:52 PM	Its easier just to agree with Phrennzy. This is a kinda stupid thread. Everyone starts rule-lawyering, and then it stops being recreational conversation. Wow, that's such a hypocritical comment, it blows my mind. The one arguing in favor of the goblins who talks about "rolling critical hits", "critical misses", "hide/spot checks", and "flanking" now accuses others of rules-lawyering. All this talk about 5% probability to hit and using numbers... it reeks of rules-lawyering. EDIT: I hate being vague, so here is what I'm referring to: Rules-Lawyering Galore (http://boards.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7170757&postcount=46) Yet, when his own rules betray him, he pins the blame on others. Yes, the rules betray him. He forgets to mention concealment, range, and so many other rules in favor of his own blinded opinion. Yes, concealment. You don't actually think the goblins way in the back have a clear line of sight of the wizard, do you? Yes, range. You don't actually think 10,000 goblins are all going to fit within 5-ft around the wizard at the same time do you? Do goblins have Distant Shot? Oh wait, they're level 1. It's extremely unfair how the rules can only be used to benefit the goblins, but when the wizard starts using rules to his advantage, it's called "rules-lawyering". It's almost as unfair as the fact that the goblins somehow managed to completely surround a 20th level, naked wizard who somehow doesn't even have enough spells to deal with an army of goblins. With the very minimal amount of preparation, the goblins lose, and I'm SO very glad most of the people on this thread actually understand that. I'm glad some people know how wizards are actually run (with brains). And yes, I AM getting passionate, as passionate as I get in every argument. Haha!
Sapp 09-06-05, 06:58 PM	Well, first off, monsters don't get xp as such. Its all in the DMG (or is the MM, can't remember for certain at the moment). But if the goal was to survive (they were told by an advisor, "don't try to fight just hide till it gets bored and leaves.") then I would give the survivor xp for overcoming the challenge (notice that does not necessarily mean the CR of the creature). If the challenge was to defeat the creature, then no xp. As I said, it all depends on what the challenge is. OK, I now understand your position, but only after I took it COMPLETELY out of context. So you DO agree that the goblins don't win, do you? The goal of both sides was to KILL the other. In the long run, the goblins did not kill the wizards. They lost. They could not prevent him from preparing himself and exterminating them. (I'm being extremely lenient in allowing the wizard to be caught unprepared and unaware and unarmed with an eternal staff or eternal wand.) It wasn't really about "winning", I just don't really understand why you took a joking comment and suddenly exploded on it. Frankly, I think the suggestion to make them your followers was the best suggestion for the wizard to win. Yes, I agree. Why kill them when you can enslave them. So I guess in a way, the goblins and the wizard both win. The goblins get to keep their insignificant lives, and the wizard gains a new army (however pathetic it is). I think most of us saw this as a joke, not sure why you decided to take it so seriously. But good gaming to you. I didn't understand why you would so strongly defend such a weak position. If it was a joke, then I'm a fool (this is where my Wisdom of 8 becomes apparent). I just didn't see why you would waste your time repeatedly defending such an indefensible position/argument. I see now that you just meant "the surviving goblins gain exp for actually managing to survive the encounter". That makes much more sense. Oh yeah, and, Haha.
pres_man 09-06-05, 07:32 PM	I agree in the long run the goblins don't have a realistic chance. But if the goblin player defined winning as killing the wizard or getting him to leave the field of battle, then the goblins could "win". Perhaps a scenerio would prove my (not quite as I thought) humorous point. DM: Ok, wizard you are riding your phantom steed and suddenly turn a corner in the valley and there are 10,000 goblins in front of you. They look like they are coming for something you have an interest in (?). Wizard you won initiative. Wizard Player: What the ...? Man, I didn't pick mass killing spells. Crap, well I could just ditch out and find them tomorrow and kill them all. Ok, I teleport back to my tower to get my stuff ready. Goblin Player: **jumps up and down, points at wizard player** Ha, ha, ha, sucker! You lost. You retreated, which means that you didn't kill my forces, which means I win. Wizard Player: I'm coming back the next day to kill them all. Goblin Player: Too late. You lost. Battle is over. I'm going to play some Diablo 2 now, see ya sucker. Wizard Player: **whispering** What an idiot. See, if the wizard leaves, the goblins could "win". Of course, in a real situation the goblins are pretty much toast. Of course, assuming you're using the Instant Kill variant, all you need is one goblin to get one lucky shot with a triple 20 and good-bye superior dude. That is why dragons don't make a habit of attacking large cities. Too many chances of triple 20 deaths. :D
Sapp 09-06-05, 07:46 PM	I'm rather passionate about this debate because it represents a kind of implicit restriction on the way people view wizards. The ones who think the goblins will win simply picture the average level 1 wizard. Walking along. Yes, walking, because he can't fly or teleport. No permanency, no spell buffs. I really want to know that most people are able to conceptualize the power of a level 20 wizard. It's not something to be taken for granted. Unfortunately, so many D&D players play with level 50 godslaying characters that it becomes hard to conceptualize these kind of things. Also, these arguments always involve so much rules-lawyering without much thought being put into them. Nuntius128's post is one example: Rules Lawyering Galore (http://boards.wizards.com/showpost.phpp=7170757&postcount=46) I guess I shouldn't blame him because I'm sure many people, when they play their level 20 wizards do so with their friends. They travel on foot with their party because the rest of them can't fly. They don't do entire quests on their own because it's ill-mannered outside the campaign at the gaming table, even though they're often perfectly capable of doing so with a little critical thinking and imagination. But this encounter doesn't involve other party members (if it did, the goblins would stand even less of a chance). It involves a sole, unrestrained wizard who isn't controlled by a dumbass player. His intelligence really is 20+. You don't find him, ever. He finds you. Unless 10,000 goblins live in his pocket plane, he'll never have to fight so many at a time. He has his own armies, and stockpiles of equipment and powerful items and enchantments. He's not just "another 20th level character in a party". He's a world power, on his own (unless he's in the Forgotten Realms setting, in which case he's just another powerful wizard, Haha). A little imagination is necessary to create a realistic borderline-Epic wizard, not one who's decidedly naked without proper preparation or spell buffs, who likes to sleep in the wilderness without any means of warning himself to intruders... Admittedly, it's hard to play an Int 20+ character, but just a minimal amount of thought goes a long way. The way some people put so much effort into rules lawyering against the wizard (see above; Rules Lawyering Galore), and none into "how would a Super-Genius survive a group of level 1 monsters" is just stunning to me. Does it really put that much strain on the brain to even imagine what an Int 20+ person would be like? We should have a little more imagination than that, being role-players (or even roll-players). Again, you use "triple 20" as a possibility for the downfall of the wizard. Yes, that's another example how the wizard could lose. Clearly you have a keen perception and insight, so why is it you refuse to see how easily this is all avoided by invisibility, concealment, and flight, just to name a few? Contingency teleport doesn't even have to teleport him away from the battle. It could just teleport him high up in the air (way above the range of the goblins), where he casts a quickened flight, and casts Apocalypse as mentioned by another poster. Thoughts like, "Tthere are sooo many goblins and they are bound to roll 20's, an average of 500 crits per round! omg!" are clear indication of the intent to rules-lawyer. Yet when those who argue in favor of the wizard present their own evidence, they are accused of rules-lawyering. Very odd.
General_Ridley 09-06-05, 08:51 PM	Time stop + summon some elemental monoliths. dead goblins.
BlaineTog 09-06-05, 09:18 PM	That army of 10,000 goblins isn't a PC. So it's a bunch of NPCs. NPCs don't gain XP. Anyway, the wizard wins, initiative or no initiative, because of his contingency, as long as no one hits him with Dimensional Anchor or the ilk.
Lord Ian Stark 09-06-05, 11:34 PM	Since this debate is still going, a clear answer to what entails a win by Earthcrosser599 is needed. As was said above. To a typical battle, if the Wizard at any time leaves the battle to rest or heal up, then the goblins win by the RAW. This like Pres_man was why I said the Goblins win because I just don't see the wizard having enough firepower in one days alloted amount of spells to kill 10,000 targets. How big of an area are we talking about that these goblins are taking up? Are they smushed together in one huge mass like idiots or spread out over a huge distance? Are there trees and vegitation around or is this an open battlefield that the mage can see every opponent? (If he can see that far) However if the way to win is to see who dies first then the Wizard would win as he can leave the battle and come back until all goblins are killed. So that was easy, where is the debate here? Is there another way to "win" without going by the RAW way to win or total kill way?
SnowbearK 09-07-05, 12:10 AM	So, let's assume the wizard leaves the battlefield. Who wins? Not who you think. The wizard "wins" (gets the XP) because he's the PC (unless, on the exceedingly unlikely chance you're DMing for 10,000 freakin' players!) AND he has successfully bypassed the encounter and continued on with his adventure (assuming the goblins weren't his adventure in the first place), without wasting unnecessary magic. Does he really get any XP for the encounter? No. Precisely because it was too easy. IF you happen to be DMing for 10,000 players and each just happens to choose a 1st level goblin warrior for their character, they still get no XP because they didn't defeat or bypass the encounter, the wizard had better things to do and allowed them to live (ie, no XP for things 8+ levels higher than yourself, because if you do manage defeat them, your DM's a damn idiot! For any number of reasons.)
Earthcrosser599 09-07-05, 12:56 AM	Okay, I didn't think I had to go into this much detail but people are grasping at straws. I will address everything I can think of on this post and if I leave something out I'm sorry but at this point I almost don't care. * * * A horde of goblins has just lost their warlord to abduction and now have no one to lead them. They decide to wander around until they find him. Despite the lack of a leader they still decide to stick together and the entire warband marches around in typical horde fashion. Their wanderings take them into sight of a wizard's tower. The resident wizard had been aware of them for some time but he hoped they would just pass him by. It seems that that is not the case. The goblins see the tower, eventually figure out that a powerful wizard lives there, and decide that the wizard must have been the one to kidnap their commander. They quickly formulate a typical horde overrun and swarm plan and race in to try and save their leader. They have a few lieutenants and lesser captains but no solid leader like the warlord. The wizard's tower stands in the middle of a small community of farmers. He doesn't want to see them die and doesn't particularly like goblins, so he decides to eliminate them. As a matter of fact, his old adventuring party once lost a guy to goblins, and he doesn't want them to survive. He also doesn't want them to reach his tower because it would mean death to the innocent farmers around him. Many of them are his friends. The wizard spends a few minutes collecting whatever gear he happens to have at hand, and teleports out to face them. The goblins are two miles from the town. The wizard teleports in somwhere around there. The goblins win if they kill him or if they are able to destroy the town. The wizard wins if the town is still standing at the end of the day and he is still alive. * * * I don't care if he can "enslave them" or "use them to whatever end" because he has no intention of doing so. It doesn't matter why he wants to fight them or what his alignment is. The goblins are aware of the presence of a powerful spellcaster. The wizard is aware of the army of goblins. The wizard doesn't care if he gains experience or not. The goblins do not care if they gain experience or not. The wizard does not have his own army. He has not used up any of his spells so far except the teleport to get him there...**** it, say he used a scroll so he has all his spell slots. He has DMG assets for his level, which is I think 760,000 gp worth of stuff. He has wands, scrolls, staffs...whatever crap you feel like imagining him having that's realistic for his level. The wizard is not a moron run by someone's cousin. The wizard is not going to leave the battlefield unless he has won or has no choice but retreat. The DM is not going to be a prick and say, "You lose" without letting the wizard try. I am starting to agree with Phrennzy about how stupid this thread has become. I do not care what the SRD says about goblin management. You can put them into roman-esque combat formations or stereotypical goblin swarms. I don't want responses like, "Goblins would never try to save a single leader!" or "A wizard wouldn't be bothered with mere goblins." I don't care how illogical the entire situation is or any of that crap. Can a 20th level wizard take on 10,000 goblins? Some people have actually contributed useful information and to those that have, thanks.
pres_man 09-07-05, 01:14 AM	Let's remember even though everybody is assuming all of the goblins are warriors, this most likely not the case. You're likely to have lots of adepts, warriors, and experts, with a smaller number (but still substantial) that are 1st level with PC classes. And the wealth for NPCs at 1st level is 900 gp. So assuming the wizard prepared, and the goblins did as well (no reason they couldn't) this could be quite a challenge. Sure the "brains" of their operation are only INT 15 and not INT 26 or whatever, but still with 900x10,000 = 9,000,000 gp of value, I'm sure they can find some gear that will give the wizard a run for his money. And some of the wizard's wealth is going to be in things that aren't going to help, such as land, furniture (nevermind a couple of animate objects and they are in the action ;) ), and whatever. And goblins being the sneaky bastages they are, wouldn't attack during the day, they'd wait till night. The wizard is going to win in the end, but its not going to be the easy walk in the park that some have made it out to be.
Sapp 09-07-05, 03:40 AM	Ugh, if that's the case, then we could have ended this argument a long time ago. I'll assume the wizard is desperate and wants to end this with little chance of failure. Given the situation, we now know that he has the time to prepare, so he casts Gate and calls forth the aid of a solar angel. Offering him a significant period of devotion to Justice and Virtue, and, of course, a significant amount of gold. I'll be extremely conservative on behalf of the goblins and say that this actually takes the solar a day to wipe out the goblins. That would mean the cost of this task is 500 gold per HD of the solar. That would be 11,000 gold for a 22 HD solar. Though the wizard could really summon up to a 40 HD solar (caster level multiplied by two). That's about 400-600 HP worth of ass-kicking angel, with AC at about 50 and a BAB of +40. Judging by level progression, damage reduction should increase to, I'm guessing around 25/Epic and Evil or 30/Epic and Evil... but that really isn't necessary seeing as how the goblins wouldn't have Epic weapons anyway and wouldn't be able to pass even 15/Epic and Evil (the base DR of a solar). Regeneration 15 is also nice, considering that the goblins don't have any epic and evil weapons. Oh wait... why am I bothering to go on? Silly me... Solars have storm of vengeance. Good Game.
psetzer 09-07-05, 04:09 AM	In order to win, the Wizard needs to limit his chances of being killed from the start. I'm assuming that he teleports in at a safe distance, or buffs before he teleports, since those are his biggest windows of vulnerability. First things first, the Wizard would probably need a Ring of Invisibility in order to protect himself until he gets a Fly, Protection from Missiles and then a Greater Invisibility cast. At that point, he is capable of casting with impunity, at least for 20 rounds, so long as the goblins don't know what square he's in. Afterwards, the wizard's primary goal becomes dealing moderate damage to as many creatures as possible in two minutes. This is a different task than dealing huge amounts of damage to one creature, and uses different spells. Sunburst, by a rough estimate, would kill about 750 goblins in one shot and grieveously injure another 50. (Beaten area divided by 25 sqft per goblin, and average damage on a save is lethal) A Greater Rod of Widen Spell (If allowed) turns my rough calculations into 3,000 dead and 200 wounded, and there are two more if that wasn't enough. Assuming full efficiency (unlikely), we've just wiped out 9,000 goblins in 18 seconds. For budding genocidal maniacs, that's a bit more than 40 million ethnics cleansed in 24 hours. In any case, if you can get your hands on a Greater Rod of Widen Spell, then do this. Interestingly, if they can get around the don't get killed bit for four rounds, a Cleric or Druid would be able to Storm of Vengance the lot of them, and would likely knock out a huge proportion of them by the fourth round of the spell, where the 5d6 bludgeoning damage comes into play. If you had a Greater Rod of Widen Spell, assuming a completely packed horde of enemies, I'd expect up to 60,000 dead goblins, or 216 megadeaths in a 24 hour period (You're a veritable Curtiss LeMay here). A less densely packed group would take fewer casualties, but still enough to make the mop-up trivial. Any stragglers could be wiped out with the Sunburst as mentioned above, at least for the Cleric. Otherwise, the task is just raining down as many Fireballs as possible from a protected location. I think that the problem would be maintaining the protection long enough to finish the task. Anything less than full protection is going to cause the death of the Wizard sooner rather than later. With core rules, I'd have to say that the Wizard is really facing an uphill task, although supplementary materials would certainly increase their capability in this situation.
LordHell 09-07-05, 05:03 AM	Do people not read others posts? Both Sapp and I have provided ways for the Wizard to defeat 10,000 Goblins by RAW with two 9th level spells. Gate and Shapechange. Either a Solar or Pitfield would destroy the Goblins without any hope of the Goblins winning. The WIzard shapechanged into a Pitfiend himself with 15DR and 5 regen, and the Goblins cannot beat him. Shapechange on a 20th level Wizard lasts 3 hours. Read above for the maths. A Gated Pitfiend, likewise cannot be killed by the Goblins. He can also AT WILL cast quickened fireballs. That means two fireballs per round. He can eliminate 100 Goblins PER ROUND in Horde formation. It will take him approximately 16 minutes. The Good Wizard can gate in a Solar. An SRD Solar is completely invulnerable to the Goblin attacks with 15DR and 15 regen. It can completely obliterate the Goblins on its own with its compliment of 20th level Cleric spells. Storm of Vengence has a 360ft RADIUS, likely covering a large space of the battlefield. After 4 rounds, the majority of the Goblin army will be eliminated. If for whatever reason it disperses and spreads out, between the Solar and Wizard, or Pitfiend with its Quickened fireballs and Wizard, they will be able to reduce the army to combat ineffective levels well before the Wizards own Shapechange will run out.
veekie 09-07-05, 06:00 AM	Prismatic Sphere+Permanancy and a Ring of Sustenance.nuff said, camp and see if they breed faster than you can kill them. Just set off Cloudkills or Summon Monster <insert number here> every now and then to keep the goblins on their toes. Spend your extra time drawing up plans for a city sized sacrificial altar. "Harvest" goblins every day for dark craft xp and gp. Start your own magic item factory. Set up yourself as supreme leader of the goblins with the proceeds.
Nightbane 09-07-05, 09:29 AM	Seriously though. Apocalypse from the Sky. One spell, everything within 200 miles takes 10d6 fire, acid, or sonic.
CzarGarrett 09-07-05, 09:56 AM	I'd go with the Goblins. If they spread out around the wizard and have ranged attackers as well as melee, then there's no chance in Hell of the wizard winning. 8 goblins immediately adjacent, 16 using reach weapons- so 24 total attacking at once. Assuming 10 archers of sorts sniping out. Between the 34 goblins per round, if 2 hit, thats something like 10 points of damage per round. A wizard will have something like 75 hp. If the goblins can do 10 points a round, the wizard will be dead in 8 rounds. Thats without any sort of critical hits. Sure, the wizard might be able to get off a few spells, but he won't be able to kill 10,000 quickly enough.
Sapp 09-07-05, 10:11 AM	Seriously though. Apocalypse from the Sky. One spell, everything within 200 miles takes 10d6 fire, acid, or sonic. That's an excellent suggestion and I would have agreed with you earlier, but now the OP has actually added context. It's very likely the goblins are already within 200 miles of the town. The wizard has enough time to prepare, but it's already too late for a spell like that, I think. The goal is to kill enough goblins so that they aren't a significant threat to the town. Using Apocalypse would kill the town folks. Sure, the wizard might be able to get off a few spells, but he won't be able to kill 10,000 quickly enough. The OP has already said it: the wizard has time to prepare. The goblins don't have a chance. Gating a solar is merely one idea I can come up with. What a 20+ Int wizard can come up with, I can only imagine. The way pit fiends and solars are built, they might as well have immunity to level 1 goblins (ex). EDIT: Apologies to Nightbane. I forgot, a 20+ Int wizard would be smart enough to position the Apocalypse so that it only hits the goblins, and not the townfolk. Yes Apocalypse could work.
Karalyn the Sellsword 09-07-05, 10:35 AM	Wouldn't you just cast Cloud Kill a few times?
Oorlof 09-07-05, 11:04 AM	Kripes, four pages?! In the scenario with context the OP kindly provided, I see no way the li'l green dudes survive Massive or Total Goblin Wipeout. Even using PHB/DMG-only, they're done for. Prepared Wizard == Doom. So. Upping the stakes here. Add this to the challenge: What is the most cost-effective way, in terms of spell-levels expended and/or rounds needed, for the Wizard to achieve M/TGW? Bonus points for using only the items and spells in the PHB and DMG. Extra bonus points for not using spellslots above 6th level. Just for laughs, these are the ways me and my buddies here'd go about it. (Obviously, the first one is too time-consuming to save the town.) * Change Self to look like a Goblin. Lose yourself in the crowd. Start spreading poison and disease. * Use multiple Time Stops/Walls of Fire to completely enclose the goblin army. Cast Cloudkill and the like in the center of the formation to drive them to the Walls. * Raise Wall of Terrible Hurt (take a pick) behind you, separating you from the village. Provoke a charge. Use Time Stops to Delay Grease the area just in front of you. Quicken-Dimension Door away the second before the first wave hits. I'm sure there are lots more nasty ways to kill 'em all. Lets hear it!
JimRuh 09-07-05, 12:28 PM	I have an idea, let your player make a 20th lvl wizard. Then throw 10,000 goblins after him. Now if it were me, I can defeat 10,000 goblins at 10th lvl.
BlaineTog 09-07-05, 01:45 PM	I'd go with the Goblins. If they spread out around the wizard and have ranged attackers as well as melee, then there's no chance in Hell of the wizard winning. 8 goblins immediately adjacent, 16 using reach weapons- so 24 total attacking at once. Assuming 10 archers of sorts sniping out. Between the 34 goblins per round, if 2 hit, thats something like 10 points of damage per round. A wizard will have something like 75 hp. If the goblins can do 10 points a round, the wizard will be dead in 8 rounds. Thats without any sort of critical hits. Sure, the wizard might be able to get off a few spells, but he won't be able to kill 10,000 quickly enough.You have no idea what a wizard can do. Please don't take this as an insult, because it's not. It's merely a statement of fact. First of all, any 20th level wizard worth his pants will have at least 150 hit points (20 con + first level hit die + average rolls = 151.5, and 20 con is on the lower side of things IMO), if not closer to 200. Second, if the wizard has time to prepare (and vs a 10,000 goblin army, I'd have a hard time believing he doesn't), he'll be invisible and flying, two things that level one characters have no defense against, especailly when put together. Third, the wizard has many, many ways of buffing himself to make the goblin's attacks useless. Fourth, even if the goblins spread out, the wizard still has many ways of killing most, if not all, of them; it will just take a little more time. Let's assume that there is one goblin per five foot square (which is *very* spread out). If the whole army is in a quare, it is 500x500 feet. One Wall of Fire alone covers nearly an entier side of the goblin army; if the wizard casts a quickened one as well, then one corner is completelly blocked off, and approximatelly 1600 goblins (the ones within 10 feet of the walls) flat out die (average damage kills them, and there is no save). Actually, if the wizard casts the walls on the outter lines of goblins, instead of just outside the outter edges, he kills about 2400 goblins, so he'd probably do that instead. Oorlof is right, of course: the best idea for wall of fire is to cast an extended time stop (an average of 7 rounds), use four of those to cast walls of fire covering three of the four sides around the goblins, and three to cast a quickened widened cloudkill and widened cloudkill each round, staggering them so that they all move in the same direction as one line and that the line enters the area of the goblins on the side not covered in walls of fire just as the time stop ends. That should kill just about all of them. This is the sort of thing that casters excel at. The real question would be: can a 20th level fighter, decked out in 760,000 gp worth of goodies, take out this army? How about a ranger, or paladin, or barbarian, or maybe even the monk? How about if they were built with the explicit purpose of destroying this horde? But that's another thread altogether.
Sapp 09-07-05, 02:07 PM	Wow, level 10 is a real challenge. My mind's a little preoccupied to come up with a method for level 10. Though, I could think of a simple level 15 method that could work at night... Since goblins are 1/3 CR. They should have around 100 gold each. Assuming they sell off their starting equipment for 50% cash back, pool their gold together, and buy very simple minor magic items such as a +1 dagger, that would mean about 5% of them will be armed with magic weapons. That's kind of funny. They'd have a hard time dealing with an incorporeal undead like a shadow. So a level 15 wizard could just create undead then command undead and then give the shadow basic sets of instructions: 1. Fly over the band of goblins. Try to avoid illuminated areas. (Hit only at night). 2. Find groups of goblins without arrows that look like they may be magical or high quality. Find groups of goblins that are sleeping, especially the ones near the edge of the warband. 3. Focus on one goblin. Keep touching him to drain its strength and then running. 4. Once the goblin becomes a shadow, give command him to follow you into the darkness where you will repeat my commands to him. 5. If all of the goblins have become shadows, come back to me. If you are critically wounded, come back to me. The shadow should make an excellent stealth assassin at night. And if he stays cautious, near the edge of the warband, the goblins pretty much can't do anything about it. They don't have magic weapons. Even if they had pooled their resources, any town would be hard pressed to sell 500 magic weapons to goblins... and even more reluctant to buy 10,000 worthless supplies from goblins... Think about it. If a town is wealthy enough to have 500 magic weapons that it can sell off at the drop of a coin, why does it buy 10,000 items of junk from goblins? We can safely assume very few of the goblins have items that can actually harm the incorporeal undead... that's even IF they notice a shadow in the dark. In shadowy illumination (camp fire at night), a shadow already gets +4 to hide. In the night, at the edge of the goblin warband, the darkness should be near perfect, and the shadow would be almost invisible. "Move silently" is invalid. Shadows are incorporeal undead that fly. They won't be heard. Effectively, at night, shadows would be invisible, flying, incorporeal monsters against the goblins. So the shadow simply picks off one goblin at a time. It may be slow at first, but the growth of shadows is exponential, so it should take more than a few hours for you to have 10,000 shadows under your command and 1 greater shadow (your original summoned shadow was basic, but he grew into a greater shadow after consumming the living strength of 10,000 goblins). I suppose if the wizard works at it, he could make try to make the command undead permanent. Though, as the OP mentioned, the wizard is not bound by alignment, so he could just command them to go run through a portal to another plane, never to come back. But it would be nice to have a shadow army, and it wouldn't be that hard to retain command. He only needs to control the original shadow to control the rest. Why enslave 10,000 goblins when you could have 10,001 shadows at your command?
CzarGarrett 09-07-05, 02:14 PM	Did you not see my post, or are you just stupid? <SNIP> Even with the wizard having time to prepare, summonable creatures disapate after a time, defenses eventually wear out. The goblins, being 10,000 of them, can use some as cannon fodder to remove a fair number of defenses, and the rest are left to attack. Once the goblins engage, then the wizard is constantly going to have to be making concentration checks. Given he'll had a high modifiers, law of averages says he'll fail every now and again. And if the wizard is prepared, why wouldn't the goblins be prepared? A handful of goblins with anti-magic devices, and the wizard is completely screwed.
BlaineTog 09-07-05, 02:18 PM	Even with the wizard having time to prepare, summonable creatures disapate after a time, defenses eventually wear out. The goblins, being 10,000 of them, can use some as cannon fodder to remove a fair number of defenses, and the rest are left to attack. Once the goblins engage, then the wizard is constantly going to have to be making concentration checks. Given he'll had a high modifiers, law of averages says he'll fail every now and again.I repeat: you clearly don't know what one can do with high-level spells. And if the wizard is prepared, why wouldn't the goblins be prepared?Wizard = Int in the lower 30s, also only one individual, also with invisibility and fly in his repetoire (even if they could plan, they'de never detect him). Goblins = Int 10, many (easy to spot). A handful of goblins with anti-magic devices, and the wizard is completely screwed.Level one characters don't get those. Plus, that's exponentially more vague than anything the wizard-will-win people have said.
Sapp 09-07-05, 02:18 PM	Let's remember even though everybody is assuming all of the goblins are warriors, this most likely not the case. You're likely to have lots of adepts, warriors, and experts, with a smaller number (but still substantial) that are 1st level with PC classes. And the wealth for NPCs at 1st level is 900 gp. I believe the OP already stated that the goblins are the ones straight from the monster manual. The OP already set the context and says it doesn't matter how illogical it may seem. I don't believe monsters are the same as NPCs. Goblins have standard wealth. At CR 1/3, I believe that comes out to 100 gold per goblin.
Sapp 09-07-05, 02:22 PM	Even with the wizard having time to prepare, summonable creatures disapate after a time, defenses eventually wear out. The goblins, being 10,000 of them, can use some as cannon fodder to remove a fair number of defenses, and the rest are left to attack. Read the spell Gate. It has no "duration". The quest you could assign a Solar or a Pit Fiend could take days. The wizard has enough wealth to pay it off no matter how finicky you are about "furniture" and "decorations". In the case of a Solar, no amount of cannon fodder will work against a +5 dancing greatsword and infinite arrows of slaying... if it even gets that far. Storm of vengeance is a spell specifically designed to combat armies. Int 20+ is seriously underestimated. In the real world, one genius had the power to wipe out hundreds of thousands without the use of spells (those hundreds of thousands didn't have a chance... and some of them may have been intelligent as well, just not AS smart). We're talking about a super genius WITH the use of spells. It shouldn't be that hard to comprehend who will be the clear winner here.
Bane 09-07-05, 02:39 PM	For purposes of this challenge, can we assume 'winning' means being the last one to die? If so, then the goblins will never win. If the wizard has even one round to prepare, the goblins will die. Use the one round to cast Time Stop. Render yourself invulnerable to goblins, using one of the accepted methods. After Time Stop wears off, use your six Rods of Absorbing (all full as far as absorbing goes) to power 300 spell levels worth of beatdown. In case you're wondering, that's 33 straight rounds of Meteor Swarm or Wail of the Banshee. Without using any of his spell slots. It is also 50 rounds of Fell Animating Fireballs. It won't take that many.
Lord Ian Stark 09-07-05, 02:57 PM	The goblins win if they kill him or if they are able to destroy the town. Goblins win hands down. One wizard would never be able to stop 10,000 goblins stretched out over two miles to stop them before destroying the town. Which can easily be done by throwing torches at the buildings. Not too mention, once the goblins reach the town the wizard won't be able to keep flinging fireballs around unless he wants to destroy the town himself. So with the scenario of the Goblins having to destroy the town to win in one day, they would win easily. Tada.
Nightbane 09-07-05, 03:14 PM	But the goblins only win if they destroy the town. Who's to say the wizard can't raze it it he sees fit?
Sapp 09-07-05, 03:27 PM	No civilian will die, but if one does, the Solar will handle that because it was his duty to protect the town and make sure that all civilians are alive by the end of the war. The solar is obligated to cast miracle or resurrection to undo any casualties. Even if he doesn't, the wizard has wish. No lives will be lost. The goblins won't have fire. It's raining heavily due to storm of vengeance. Even if the storm misses some of the torches, the civilians are not dumb. If the goblins can have torches, the civilians can have water. Or the Solar could simply miracle for some rain over the town. Any freaking way you look at it, the town is safe. Using my example for a 15th level wizard, it would be shadows, but since I want absolutely no doubt as to who the winner would be, I'm going to say spectres. If we're talking about MM1 statistic goblins (which we are), they can't even hit the spectres. Each attack by a spectre kills a goblin instantly (and heals itself, in the incomprehensible event that a gobline actually manages to hurt it). An incorporeal touch attack at +6 AB has a 75% of hitting touch AC of 12 for the goblins. It takes 1d4 rounds (an average of 2.5 rounds) for a goblin to turn into a spectre after being killed by one. To simplify calculations and understanding AND to give the benefit of the doubt to the goblins, I'm going to say that it takes 2.5 rounds for a spectre to hit and kill one goblin (which is ridiculous considering that EACH round, a spectre has a 75% chance of killing a goblin). Every 2.5 rounds, the number of spectres double. No matter how much you spread out the goblins, even if the goblins formed a circle, spread out over 2 miles, a spectre could easily travel from one goblin to the next. There's simply too many goblins. Meanwhile, you command extra spectres to run to the other side of the formation of goblins. Effectively, the this would mean that the number of spectres doubles every 2.5 rounds. Especially given that they have 80 fly speed (perfect). BUT TO FURTHER QUASH DOUBT, I will assume that it actually takes FIVE FULL ROUNDS for the number of spectres to double. Yes, I'm being ridiculous, but I want there to be no doubt. 2^13 > 5,000 It will take less than 13 minutes to completely stop a 10,000 goblin raid. The goblins wouldn't even get close to the town. What army can move 2 miles in less than 13 minutes? By the time the number of spectres has reached 5000, we can safely assume the goblins lost and don't even have a chance to destroy a town guarded by the wizard and a Solar. No fireballs needed. This is assuming they survive the 5000 odd spectres floating around within their own ranks. Three spells were used. Create Greater Undead Command Undead Gate (solar) The gate really was overkill, but AGAIN, I want to assure absolutely no doubt.
Lord Ian Stark 09-07-05, 05:13 PM	But the goblins only win if they destroy the town. Who's to say the wizard can't raze it it he sees fit? :rolleyes: Had you read what the OP said, this is not an option. Storm of Vengeance Conjuration (Summoning) Level: Drd 9, Clr 9 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 round Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) Effect: 360-ft.-radius storm cloud Duration: Concentration (maximum 10 rounds) (D) Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: Yes This spell creates an enormous black storm cloud... Um... 10,000 small creatures taking up a 5 foot area each means 50,000 feet. Hmm. Nice try. You can only have 1 of these going at a time as you have to concentrate on it by the way. As soon as you stop concentrating it ends. And the idea of villagers having some buckets of water to stop the couple thousand torches is kinda rediculous. Oh and it's raining you say? How does the rain get inside a building and put out the fire? I seriously don't see the wizard casting a damaging spell like that on part of the town. Acid rain! Severe damaging hail! It only actually rains water by the definition on the 10th round of concentration. So where were we? Oh yes the spectre idea. You overlooked one important thing about those undead. They are powerless in daylight. :eek: ;) Sunlight Powerlessness (Ex): Spectres are powerless in natural sunlight (not merely a daylight spell) and flee from it. A spectre caught in sunlight cannot attack and can take only a single move or attack action in a round. Next?
BlaineTog 09-07-05, 05:27 PM	So where were we? Oh yes the spectre idea. You overlooked one important thing about those undead. They are powerless in daylight. :eek: ;) No he didn't. He'd send the spectre out at night. EDIT: Something fun to note: if the wizard likes this town, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume he'd create a strong wall surrounding the whole thing. After all, Wall of Iron is pretty cheap to cast, and wall of stone is free. Also, I already ran the area: that army fits in a 500x500 square, if we assume each goblin takes up exactly one 5-foot square (measure it out; that's a lot of personal space). One Storm of Vengeance fits over the whole thing with ~15 feet to spare at the corners and ~110 feet at the sides.
PhaedrusXY 09-07-05, 05:40 PM	20th level wizard with Bracers of Armor with Heavy Fortification, and an Orange Ioun Stone. He casts Shapechange to turn into a Mature Adult White Dragon. He has DR 10/magic, and fortification, meaning the goblins can't hurt him at all. He has a flight speed of 200, a fear aura, and a breath weapon that can kill huge numbers of goblins every 1d4 rounds. He simply flies back and forth along the front ranks of the goblins, breathing on them as much as possible. The vast majority of them will run in terror upon seeing him. Those that don't will die to his breath long before they reach the town. I used one spell and two magic items. Edit: If you say that adding magical armor abilities to bracers is illegal, just put it on a mithril buckler instead. If you want to be picky and say it wouldn't resize, then just say he has one made to fit a dragon, since he spends alot of time shapechanged into one. Or he uses Wish to get one, if you think it's unlikely he'd already have it.
BlaineTog 09-07-05, 05:41 PM	I used one spell and two magic items.Neither of which was used up by this, you should add.
Lord Ian Stark 09-07-05, 05:43 PM	No he didn't. He'd send the spectre out at night. Well once again we are at the mercy of the OP as the time of day was not specified for this event when the wizard left to attack. So yes it seems as if it was night time and the goblins were sleeping, then yes that would be a plausible tactic to a point. Keep in mind the specters only haunt or attack around the area that they died. So an army on the move would constantly be in motion except for rest periods. But assumingly the goblins would start to run once there were screams of ghosts and the like. ;)
Lord Ian Stark 09-07-05, 05:47 PM	He simply flies back and forth along the front ranks of the goblins, breathing on them as much as possible. The vast majority of them will run in terror upon seeing him. Those that don't will die to his breath long before they reach the town. I used one spell and two magic items. I think you people are failing to understand just how vast of an area 10,000 creatures take up. Flying up and down in wooded areas and the like is possible but he would'nt be able to zip up and down the entire length of an approaching army spread out. Keep in mind, a Goblin's base speed is 30 like an average medium creature so they can cover quite a bit of terrain when running/jogging.
BlaineTog 09-07-05, 05:49 PM	Well once again we are at the mercy of the OP as the time of day was not specified for this event when the wizard left to attack.The wizard could choose. Seriously, if a 10,000 goblin army is headed your way, you know about it far in advance, especially when magic exists, and extra-especailly if you're a 20th level wizard. You certainly know about it far enough in advance to be able to choose whether you attack during the day or the night. Keep in mind the specters only haunt or attack around the area that they died.The SRD says nothing of that. But assumingly the goblins would start to run once there were screams of ghosts and the like. ;)Why would they scream? They would go in with explicit orders to stay silent. They would also kill the goblins before they would know what hit them. I think you people are failing to understand just how vast of an area 10,000 creatures take up.I already calculated it. It's a 500x500-foot square. And that's being rather generous.
Sapp 09-07-05, 05:52 PM	@ Lord Ian Stark You are the only one who would even consider sending spectres out at day... I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to everyone else. I omitted mentioning when to send out the spectres because I assumed everyone would already know. Again, the wizard had ample time to prepare. He knew the goblins were coming. He was hoping they'd go elsewhere instead of towards his town. He never liked goblins in the first place, yet he gave them a chance to leave. He was days ahead of them while looking at their army from his wizardly tower. I can tell you're desperate (in a very stubborn way). Instead of just admitting you were wrong, you come up with this absolutely ridiculous strategy of lining the 10,000 goblins up into a 50,000 ft line. Can anyone even imagine that without laughing? What kind of a fantasy battle formation is that? An army spread out over close to 5 miles?! Nice. Any form of cavalry could just run clean from one side of the line to the other. The goblins would be helpless against that, because unlike how some of you may be thinking, 10,000 goblins cannot all fire on the same target at the same time. There's a problem called distance. A goblin cannot fire an arrow at a target over 4 miles away. Ok, again, I'll accomodate for your peculiar way of thinking, and suppose that the goblins DO think, "Ok, we somehow know that the wizard has a Solar ally. We also learned from our college course Celestial Entities 101 that Solars have a spell called Storm of Vengeance which is designed against armies, even though Solars are rare and unknown to most mortals... we, the level 1 goblins know perfectly well about these strange creatures. Let us formulate a ridiculous plan specifically designed to counter Storm of Vengeance, which we learned from our Near Epic Spells 101 class." Actually no. It's so stupid, my mind can't handle it. I can't accomodate. Sorry.
BlaineTog 09-07-05, 05:55 PM	@ Sapp, It's actually ~9.5 miles. Which is all the more ridiculous.
Sapp 09-07-05, 05:58 PM	You're right. My mind is STILL affected by that previous post I made which rounded everything in favor of the goblins (by very significant amounts). In fact, I made an error in calculation in my previous post too. It would actually take less than 7 minutes for spectres to overrun the army. I accidentally took 5 rounds to be a full minute, when we all know 5 rounds is only half a minute. But it's ok, because I gave the benefit of the doubt to the goblins. My estimates are that conservative.
Iver Gearsham 09-07-05, 06:02 PM	Metamagic Rod Widen + Wall of Fire draws a hell of a line in the sand at 800 ft. long and 40 ft. high. Roasting all those 4 hp Gobs for 2d4 damage who are with in 20 ft. of the wall and a 1d4 for the rest with in 40 ft. As you can form this wall in squares occupied by foes you can auto kill the front line with 2d6 + 20 HPs of damage. As the spell lasts for consentration +1/level round you can keep the wall there as long as it takes for them to get the hint and go around that will cause them to bunch up on one side or both sides. Then you cast another Widened Wall of Fire or some other area spells to dispose of the scum. Total area effected by this spell is 32,000 ft. or 6,400 5 ft. squares by by Gobies :D .
Sapp 09-07-05, 06:05 PM	Metamagic Rod Widen + Wall of Fire draws a hell of a line in the sand at 8,000 ft. long (thats a Mile and a half +120 ft.) and 40 ft. high. Roasting all those 4 hp Gobs for 2d4 damage who are with in 20 ft. of the wall and a 1d4 for the rest with in 40 ft. No man... That's not enough for some people. You need a 50,000 ft line. And you need to kill them very quickly, because they'll reach the town in only a few rounds or less, and throw their little torches at the buildings (which automatically doom the buildings)! (It's funny to think about a 20th level wizard's tower surrounded by... straw huts...)
BlaineTog 09-07-05, 06:07 PM	Metamagic Rod Widen + Wall of Fire draws a hell of a line in the sand at 8,000 ft. long (thats a Mile and a half +120 ft.) and 40 ft. high. Roasting all those 4 hp Gobs for 2d4 damage who are with in 20 ft. of the wall and a 1d4 for the rest with in 40 ft.You've got the length wrong by a factor of 10 (it's "only" 800 feet long when widened), but that's still quite a large amount of distance. As the spell lasts for consentration +1 round you can keep the wall there as long as it takes for them to get the hint and go around that will cause them to bunch up on one side or both sides.Concentration + 1 round/level.
BlaineTog 09-07-05, 06:09 PM	(It's funny to think about a 20th level wizard's tower surrounded by... straw huts...)You know, if this town is the wizard's little pet project of sorts (really, what else does a 20th level wizard have to do?), I see no reason for those huts to not be made of stone.
Sapp 09-07-05, 06:12 PM	And the idea of villagers having some buckets of water to stop the couple thousand torches is kinda rediculous. Oh and it's raining you say? How does the rain get inside a building and put out the fire? I seriously don't see the wizard casting a damaging spell like that on part of the town. Acid rain! Severe damaging hail! It only actually rains water by the definition on the 10th round of concentration. Reread my post. Storm of Vengeance on the goblins (way before they even get close to the town). Miracle for rain on the town. (Natural rain). What an unimaginative waste of goblins. Thousands of goblinoid lives lost just to get a few to toss a couple of torches here and there at stone houses... The thought makes me chuckle, not because it's funny. EDIT: On the bright side, this thread was actually interesting. At least now, if I ever play a wizard, I'll have more creative ways to swing the tides of wars. It got me thinking. That's good.
Iver Gearsham 09-07-05, 06:28 PM	No man... That's not enough for some people. You need a 50,000 ft line. And you need to kill them very quickly, because they'll reach the town in only a few rounds or less, and throw their little torches at the buildings (which automatically doom the buildings)! (It's funny to think about a 20th level wizard's tower surrounded by... straw huts...) If gobs could advance in a coherent fashion in line over that distance they would surpass all modern and historical military in disciplined formation. More likely they would have a front of 300 ft. and 500 ft. deep thats 150,000 ft. for them to mill around in hoard like as they advanced on a town.
Sapp 09-07-05, 06:33 PM	Hey, it's not me you should be convincing... haha. But if that's the case, just have the Solar cast a bunch of Summon Monster VIIs (which he can do at will every round). I can just imagine a line of celestial elephants (with DR 5/magic) charging/trampling through the goblins (trample 2d8+15). It seems like it would be a lot of fun. (Gated creatures can summon. Summon monster specifically states that the summoned creatures can't summon. Gate has no such restrictions.)
LordHell 09-07-05, 06:43 PM	Lord Ian Stark. If you take 10,000 and pack them into a square, you have 100 goblins along x and along y. That means you're looking at 500ft each way, not 50,000ft. Storm of Vengence is perfectly capable of covering that. Maybe if you spread them out in one big line they'd take up 50,000 ft. Assuming they circle around the tower, the storm of vengence would cover a significant portion of their army. Area of a circle = 3.14r^2. 3.14x360ft^2 = 406,994ft squared. A 5ft space is 25ft squared. That means 16,279 Goblins could fit under a storm of vengence - packed into 5ft squares. This isnt unreasonable for a horde formation, considering Roman Legions fought in tight formations of 3ft spacing. If the Goblins spread out they will take more time to destroy, but at the same time wont be able to bring overwhelimg firepower to bare - and will be defeated in detail. Again for those that think the Goblins will wear the Wizard down, read my earlier posts about his Shapechanging options.
Bardicstorm 09-07-05, 06:50 PM	If gobs could advance in a coherent fashion in line over that distance they would surpass all modern and historical military in disciplined formation. More likely they would have a front of 300 ft. and 500 ft. deep thats 150,000 ft. for them to mill around in hoard like as they advanced on a town. That's asuming they're wary of imminent attack... Any type of relatively close formation would only be logical if they were preparing to attack or preparing to be attacked. Generally, armies marching to battle don't do it in close groups, nor do they do it in blocks as wide as they are deep... (makes it tough to get past rough terrain). Most likely, if the goblins were unaware of the wizard (likely) they would be marching in a ragged line roughly 8 goblins wide at the widest and about 1,400 goblins long (accounting for areas where the line is only a few goblins wide). Stretched out and ragged. Also, if they are going to war, they will have supply wagons with clusters of goblins. Goblins have average intelligence as per the MM... they are just as smart as the average humans in the village. I agree the wizard would likely thrash them (love the spectre idea), but don't make the gobbies march in a stupid square. Another point... Create greater undead is an evil spell... Exactly why would a wizard willing to use such methods want to save the village? (barring of course the wizard deciding this is the perfect source from which to create his undead army). Curiously though if the wizard creates the spectre, by the RAW the spectre is not immediately under control of the wizard.. furthermore, all additional spectres created are under control of the spectre that made them.. not the wizard... So essentially the Powerful wizard is going to turn an army of fairly innocuous goblins into an army of 10,000 spectres, of which he (may) control the leader, at least until control undead wears off...
Nightbane 09-07-05, 06:55 PM	:rolleyes: Had you read what the OP said, this is not an option. No, had you read what the OP said, you would realize that this is an option. The only restrictions are that he doesn't want the farmers to die and the town is still standing at the end of the day. Now, I don't know about you, but if I were a wizard, my tower would be made of stone and warded against fire, disintigration, and all sorts of other spells that could smite it. My tower would also have a few basements and extradimensional closets. Therefore, all of the villagers would most likely be able to take refuge inside the tower as I smite everything within 200 miles. Counting the teleport spell used at the begining of the encounter, only two spells have been cast. The rest of my spells for the day can therefore be dedicated to rebuilding the town just as I found it. At 20th level and with the time to prepare that the OP mentioned, it's more than possible.
Iver Gearsham 09-07-05, 07:06 PM	That's asuming they're wary of imminent attack... Any type of relatively close formation would only be logical if they were preparing to attack or preparing to be attacked. Generally, armies marching to battle don't do it in close groups, nor do they do it in blocks as wide as they are deep... (makes it tough to get past rough terrain). Most likely, if the goblins were unaware of the wizard (likely) they would be marching in a ragged line roughly 8 goblins wide at the widest and about 1,400 goblins long (accounting for areas where the line is only a few goblins wide). Stretched out and ragged. Also, if they are going to war, they will have supply wagons with clusters of goblins. Goblins have average intelligence as per the MM... they are just as smart as the average humans in the village. I agree the wizard would likely thrash them (love the spectre idea), but don't make the gobbies march in a stupid square. Another point... Create greater undead is an evil spell... Exactly why would a wizard willing to use such methods want to save the village? (barring of course the wizard deciding this is the perfect source from which to create his undead army). Curiously though if the wizard creates the spectre, by the RAW the spectre is not immediately under control of the wizard.. furthermore, all additional spectres created are under control of the spectre that made them.. not the wizard... So essentially the Powerful wizard is going to turn an army of fairly innocuous goblins into an army of 10,000 spectres, of which he (may) control the leader, at least until control undead wears off... It has been pointed out that they are about to attack and need to be stoped so ya they are in a big stupid square like every other army of the time in the world it may not be a perfect square it may ressemble an ooz but they have too be in a group or they will be over whelmed by any force that can maintain cohesion in battle.
Sapp 09-07-05, 07:07 PM	Another point... Create greater undead is an evil spell... Exactly why would a wizard willing to use such methods want to save the village? (barring of course the wizard deciding this is the perfect source from which to create his undead army). Curiously though if the wizard creates the spectre, by the RAW the spectre is not immediately under control of the wizard.. furthermore, all additional spectres created are under control of the spectre that made them.. not the wizard... So essentially the Powerful wizard is going to turn an army of fairly innocuous goblins into an army of 10,000 spectres, of which he (may) control the leader, at least until control undead wears off... Yes, I thought about that too, but 3 things convinced me about this idea: 1. The OP specifically mentioned that he doesn't care about alignment related issues. 2. I liked the idea of an exponentially growing army! 3. It's very cost effective. For what you pay in terms of casting create greater undead, command undead, and whatever precautionary spells you need to bind the original created spectre before you had the chance to cast the command undead spell... you get an effective way to kill 10,000 goblins. Much more effective than widened fireballs and such, which would likely ruin your land/scenery. (Think of how long it would take for the wizard to rebuild from the damage to his forests or plains! Maybe even days!) Yes, I also know that if the original spectre dies, then the others will become rogue. Then I realized: the spectre won't die. Not to goblins. If you're really worried (though I see no reason why you should be), then once the original spectre has 1 or 2 under his command, you can just keep that original one safe. When the battle is over, and you REALLY don't like the idea of having an army of 10,000 undead, you could always just cast another Gate and command the head honcho to command the rest of them to go to Hell where they belong. Hah. But a Solar really is enough. I just wanted to be meticulous. Hehe. EDIT: Oh, you were thinking control undead. I was just thinking of Command undead (which would last for 20 days). I didn't think spectres would take that much convincing to kill 10,000 goblins. "Um yeah... go do what you do best to that bunch of goblins over there. You can have all of them. I won't bother you or take any kills for myself. Just stay away from my town, that's guarded by a Solar." But sure, control undead would be even better, considering that it wouldn't take that long for the spectres to finish their job.
Lord Ian Stark 09-07-05, 08:51 PM	Can someone explain to me where I said the Goblins are standing in a straight line? 1 Goblin takes up a 5 foot square. Unless they are squeezing which there is no reason that they are. I'm sorry but the idea of Goblins walking in step in a perfect formation like humans is a little far fetched. They would be in massive groups but in no way lined up in any sort of ranks. So 10,000 Goblins take up 50,000 square feet. I never said in single file. You guys thought that BS up all by yourselves. Good on yah. ;) No spell has that kind of range. I even posted the specifics of the storm spell yet you argue that it could be spread out that far? Metamagic feats can only help so much as they don't stack. What an unimaginative waste of goblins. Thousands of goblinoid lives lost just to get a few to toss a couple of torches here and there at stone houses... The thought makes me chuckle, not because it's funny. Perhaps you should ask the OP this as realistically once the mage starts casting massive damaging spells the goblins will begin to flee. But I understand you don't understand what would happen if torches were thrown into windows and into "stone" houses. So the entire inside of the building is destroyed and perhaps if the flames get hot enough will burn brick and the adhesive that was used to build the structure. But that's irrelevant as, if a thousand or so goblins make it into the town it's going to get pretty messed up along with the peeps. Either way I see the Goblins completing the objective of destroying the town before they are all killed. The SRD says nothing of that. This was in response to saying that specters haunt where they die. Sorry that's in the 3.5 MM not the SRD.
LordHell 09-07-05, 08:54 PM	10,000 Goblins take up 250,000 square feet. Storm of Vengence takes up 406,944 square feet. 10,000 Goblins moving in a 5ft spaced horde or roughly circular formation would form a radius of 282ft. The Radius of Storm of Vengence is 360ft.
Bardicstorm 09-07-05, 09:40 PM	It has been pointed out that they are about to attack and need to be stoped so ya they are in a big stupid square like every other army of the time in the world it may not be a perfect square it may ressemble an ooz but they have too be in a group or they will be over whelmed by any force that can maintain cohesion in battle. Yes, it has been pointed out.. but there have also been posts saying he has three days to prepare and is attacking them earlier.. if such is the case, they would be marching not grouped for battle. Furthermore if they were at the right place to prepare for battle, and their goal is to attack the town, they would surround the town first, like any semi intelligent foe. And there is no force to counter them that can maintain cohesion in battle. At most you have the commoners of the town/village, (not clear on which) which might have a militia with levels, but most will be commoners who've never fought. Against the MM1 goblins which are essentially all 1st lvl warriors. And as per the DMG even a large town only has 5,000 people in it at the most. Ignoring the pesky wizard for a minute. The town/ village would have little change against such a horde on their own, even if they were just bordering on small city. And even if they are preparing for battle they wouldn't be in a single stupid square formation. They have intelligence 10. They are as smart as your average human. They understand things like formations, tactics, strategy, and using terrain. As goblins are essentially a tribal race, 10,000 of them are more likely to attack using hit and run tactics in much smaller groups, of say 15-30 at most. In such a set up, a single army can cover many square miles of terrain with these little guerilla groups. I really get kinda sick of DMs not looking at creature intelligence and playing everything as dumber than it is. Average intelligence in a tribal society.. think native american tribes going to battle or even more modern guerilla warfare... Using the terrain... hit and run tactics... small cohesive groups...
Tenreo 09-07-05, 09:47 PM	I agree with bardic storm. I would also like to point out that nowhere has it been said all these goblins have to be 1st leve :schemes: . Edit: And if you are using 20>20>20=instant kill, then, well, there is a very good chance that the wizard dies.
Nightbane 09-07-05, 09:47 PM	I really get kinda sick of DMs not looking at creature intelligence and playing everything as dumber than it is. Average intelligence in a tribal society.. think native american tribes going to battle or even more modern guerilla warfare... Using the terrain... hit and run tactics... small cohesive groups... That's the nice part about my plan. The goblins lose no matter what they do.
BlaineTog 09-07-05, 09:49 PM	This was in response to saying that specters haunt where they die. Sorry that's in the 3.5 MM not the SRD.Ok. It's irrelevant. The wizard casted command undead on that spectre. Additionally, does it say that the spectre may never leave its place of death, or does it say that they haunt their place of death? @Bardicstorm, My point was basically that 10,000 goblin's don't really take up that much space. The square layout was for simplicity. If you want, we can assume that the they were camping at the time a day or two away from the village. If they used hit-and-run tactics, they are all the more easy for the wizard to kill. While he can't kill them all with a single storm of vengeance, he also doesn't have to worry about taking ~550d6 damage from a single volley. He could easily take out each individual group with a fireball, if he wanted. I agree with bardic storm. I would also like to point out that nowhere has it been said all these goblins have to be 1st leve :schemes: .Uh, yes, it has. RTFT.
Tenreo 09-07-05, 09:49 PM	BlaineTog: And what about spells per day. Do you have enough fireballs for 1000 groups? It may take days to kill all the goblins, by which time they can cause all sorts of havoc. Sorry, I missed the limitation on goblin level.
Sapp 09-07-05, 09:51 PM	This was in response to saying that specters haunt where they die. Sorry that's in the 3.5 MM not the SRD. Ok. So they usually haunt where they die. That's superceded by the fact that someone has active control over the spectre. Skeletons are normally mindless and stay where they were raised. That's superceded when they are commanded by a cleric. Pit fiends and solars normally don't waste their time killing goblins. That's superceded by the fact that they were gated in. You're controlling them. You order them where to go. ... and I highly doubt a spectre would be confined to a 100 ft square. It doesn't have 80 ft fly movement for nothing. It will not stop 5 ft away from a goblin and think "Oh crap, I'm only supposed to haunt where I died. Too bad." Semantics are fun, but seriously... just give it up.
Bardicstorm 09-07-05, 09:53 PM	Yes, I also know that if the original spectre dies, then the others will become rogue. Then I realized: the spectre won't die. Not to goblins. If you're really worried (though I see no reason why you should be), then once the original spectre has 1 or 2 under his command, you can just keep that original one safe. When the battle is over, and you REALLY don't like the idea of having an army of 10,000 undead, you could always just cast another Gate and command the head honcho to command the rest of them to go to Hell where they belong. Hah. But a Solar really is enough. I just wanted to be meticulous. Hehe. EDIT: Oh, you were thinking control undead. I was just thinking of Command undead (which would last for 20 days). The original spectre doesn't have to die.. if you read command undead (yes, I was thinking control undead just cause I was in a hurry) it says the undead (spectre) treats the caster as friendly and will not attack the caster. However, since the spectres are obediant to their creator, not necessarily the grandparent spectre, there might be issues. See, spectres are above average intelligence (14). And they hate all living things. I think the original spectre wouldn't attack the caster, and likely even the first spectre's progeny would refrain from doing so. However, by the 3rd generation (only a couple rounds) they would start trying to figure out how to get out of the wizards control. The wizard would have to essentially command the first spectre to not attack him and command it's progeny not to attack him, and to command it's progeny to comand their progeny not to attack him and so on. Honestly you only have one spectre who obeys the caster, and 9,999 who hate him. And the town. I agree that the wizard could likely wipe the floor with the goblins.. but you're going to have a hard time convincing me he could do so with 10,000, 7 HD creatures who have a 50% chance of ignoring any damage from a corporeal source, and can energy drain. I believe it's a brilliant idea for a PC who hasn't thought things through, and I'm just enough of a jerk of a DM to make him regret it. :devil:
Sapp 09-07-05, 09:57 PM	@ Bardicstorm Sheesh, and I purposely looked for a LAWFUL undead too, so I could assume they would obey their masters at least for 7 minutes. Yes, 7 freaking minutes. Just 7 minutes, and the wizard could just gate them all away to whatever plane they wanted (if they really wanted their freedom). Oh, and that would be 1 spectre that's friendly with the wizard, 10,000 who "hate" him. I don't see why any could sanely (even for undeads) disobey not only their master, but a level 20 wizard and his temporary Solar bodyguard. Can you think of any better idea than mass spectres? That's the best I can come up with sub-genius Int (16 or less). Anyone come up with super-genius Int material (20+ Int)? 7 HD creatures who have a 50% chance of ignoring any damage from a corporeal source, and can energy drain. Just a nitpick. 50% chance of ignoring any magic source. Otherwise, the goblins might even stand a chance!
BlaineTog 09-07-05, 10:01 PM	Nightbane: But What if the goblin sorcerer dispells all effects on the 20th level wizard, eh?He can't. The DC is 31, or perhaps 32. The most the sorcerer can possible get out of dispel magic is 30. Was it ever said the goblins don't get casters?Yes it was. BlaineTog: And what about spells per day. Do you have enough fireballs for 1000 groups?I count ~455 groups. The wizard probably has about 40 spells that are potential candiadtes for fireballing. Do you really think that they'd send more than 40 groups in a single day after every single one of them has been utterly slaughtered? Not that any of those 40 groups would stand a chance of breeching the stone (or possibly iron) wall surrounding the village. And even if they did, it's not as if the wizard couldn't easily patch the hole. It may take days to kill all the goblins, by which time they can cause all sorts of havoc.And how, praytell, are they going to deal with the stone wall surrounding the village? How are they going to deal with the stone houses of the villagers? And if these guys are spread out, making hit-and-run forays as Bardicstorm, then the wizard can just blow them up as they get close. EDIT: @ Bardicstorm, Who said the wizard is alive? He could be a necropolitan.
Sapp 09-07-05, 10:04 PM	Honestly, guerilla warfare makes things easier for the wizard. If they come in small groups at a time, that gives the wizard time to rest and recover while his solars and pitfiends kill more goblins by the day. The REAL time limit is imposed on the goblins, not the wizard, who can wait the situation out while casting scry. The goblins would eventually panic and either retreat (and forfeit the battle) or finish the battle off with a last charge, a grand finale. Either way they lose.
LordHell 09-07-05, 10:07 PM	And even if they are preparing for battle they wouldn't be in a single stupid square formation. They have intelligence 10. They are as smart as your average human. They understand things like formations, tactics, strategy, and using terrain. As goblins are essentially a tribal race, 10,000 of them are more likely to attack using hit and run tactics in much smaller groups, of say 15-30 at most. In such a set up, a single army can cover many square miles of terrain with these little guerilla groups. I really get kinda sick of DMs not looking at creature intelligence and playing everything as dumber than it is. Average intelligence in a tribal society.. think native american tribes going to battle or even more modern guerilla warfare... Using the terrain... hit and run tactics... small cohesive groups... My god, you've got it so wrong that you've almost done a 360 degrees. The amount of armies that used swords and bows, that could actually use formations, tactics, strategy, and using terrain I can count on one hand. It doesnt matter what your understanding Formations, tactics, and strategy is, if you're not drilled to practice them you will fail miserably. The vast majority of D&D players are quite smart. Smarter than your average goblin no doubt, but if I got all the posters on the Wizards.com board and formed them into an army, do you think any of them would be able to form proper formations, battle drills, and marching drills? Absolutely not. The main basis for comparason to Goblins is many tribal babarians. Ill take the Britons vs the Romans as an example. The Britons were strong and quite cunning warriors. Only under a united strong leader did they manage any semblance of guerilla warfare. You're suggesting a bunch of tribal Goblins, with no major leadership, no battle drills, no familiarily between clans, are suddenly going to work together and take up asymetrical warfare against a foe whos powers they know NOTHING about? Please, give me a break. I get sick of people who have 0 understanding of how things actually work - Goblin armies that probably war amongst themselves more than anything, coming together and using advanced battle trained tactics that even the best Roman and Greek armies would be envious of. It takes a fairly strong and competent leader to get any group of tribes together to fight with some cohesion and strategy. Through-out history most of tribal warfare is a fairly simple and burtal affair, and its only under very charismatic leaders after years of warfare do tribal systems get close to any form of modern asymetrical warfare that you are advocating. This is the Goblins first attempt at having any form of joint operations. They havnt been waging war for years as a unit. Unit cohesion will be minimal at best, competition between rival clan cheifs will be rife, battle drills for such large formations will be NILL. Spreading out and attacking in piecemeal will be a disaster. They have no practice at communications. It doesnt matter if all these Goblins are super geniuses, they havnt got the training, society, drills, and most importanly experiance required to pull off mass asymetrical organized warfare. Thinking anything else is pure dellusional.
Bardicstorm 09-07-05, 10:20 PM	Sheesh, and I purposely looked for a LAWFUL undead too, so I could assume they would obey their masters at least for 7 minutes. Yes, 7 freaking minutes. Just 7 minutes, and the wizard could just gate them all away to whatever plane they wanted (if they really wanted their freedom). Oh, and that would be 1 spectre that's friendly with the wizard, 10,000 who "hate" him. I don't see why any could sanely (even for undeads) disobey not only their master, but a level 20 wizard and his temporary Solar bodyguard. Can you think of any better idea than mass spectres? That's the best I can come up with sub-genius Int (16 or less). Anyone come up with super-genius Int material (20+ Int)? Just a nitpick. 50% chance of ignoring any magic source. Otherwise, the goblins might even stand a chance! No, I'm not really able to come up with a faster way of taking out the goblins.. I just think turning them into spectres is a bad idea for the wizard. From a DMs standpoint I think it's brilliant. :devil: As for the 9,999 I was assuming the wizard killed one goblin for the body he needs for create greater undead. And why exactly would 9,999 (or 10k) spectres want to gate away? especially when they have all these nice humans to begin slaughtering? Also, they wouldn't exactly be disobeying their master, since only one has the wizard for a master. Anyway, this is sort of hijacking the thread... either way I think it'd be fun to play out.
Bardicstorm 09-07-05, 10:35 PM	Spoiler'd Quote of LordHell's PostMy god, you've got it so wrong that you've almost done a 360 degrees. The amount of armies that used swords and bows, that could actually use formations, tactics, strategy, and using terrain I can count on one hand. It doesnt matter what your understanding Formations, tactics, and strategy is, if you're not drilled to practice them you will fail miserably. The vast majority of D&D players are quite smart. Smarter than your average goblin no doubt, but if I got all the posters on the Wizards.com board and formed them into an army, do you think any of them would be able to form proper formations, battle drills, and marching drills? Absolutely not. The main basis for comparason to Goblins is many tribal babarians. Ill take the Britons vs the Romans as an example. The Britons were strong and quite cunning warriors. Only under a united strong leader did they manage any semblance of guerilla warfare. You're suggesting a bunch of tribal Goblins, with no major leadership, no battle drills, no familiarily between clans, are suddenly going to work together and take up asymetrical warfare against a foe whos powers they know NOTHING about? Please, give me a break. I get sick of people who have 0 understanding of how things actually work - Goblin armies that probably war amongst themselves more than anything, coming together and using advanced battle trained tactics that even the best Roman and Greek armies would be envious of. It takes a fairly strong and competent leader to get any group of tribes together to fight with some cohesion and strategy. Through-out history most of tribal warfare is a fairly simple and burtal affair, and its only under very charismatic leaders after years of warfare do tribal systems get close to any form of modern asymetrical warfare that you are advocating. This is the Goblins first attempt at having any form of joint operations. They havnt been waging war for years as a unit. Unit cohesion will be minimal at best, competition between rival clan cheifs will be rife, battle drills for such large formations will be NILL. Spreading out and attacking in piecemeal will be a disaster. They have no practice at communications. It doesnt matter if all these Goblins are super geniuses, they havnt got the training, society, drills, and most importanly experiance required to pull off mass asymetrical organized warfare. Thinking anything else is pure dellusional. Guerilla tactics are still tactics. Virtually every non trained army on the planet uses these. Breaking into small groups are a type of formation. Terrain and Strategy? every army, no matter how advanced has always used these. You must have a huge one hand to count all these armies. And why must swords and bows be a requisite for an example of how to portray a specific group of creatures? I used Native American tribes as an example.. but the Goths, the Celts, the Vikings all would work as well. They all used guerilla tactics, strategy, and terrain variations to attain and hold extremely large empires... Yes, the Romans were able to do the same with their huge armies and strictly trained units, but who do you think they had the hardest time with? Yep, the celts. The barbarians who wouldn't stand and fight. Hit and run tactics are some of the best there are, especially against large organized armies. But then, we're not talking about large organized armies. I think if all the players on this board got together and went to battle, you'd see exactly the type of tactics and strategy I'm talking about. Obviously when you hear tactics, strategy, formations, and terrain you think of the roman armies, but why? they were but one in a hundred of such that conquered empires. The mongol hordes didn't use perfectly lined up legions, but you can bet that there was strategy, tactics, and a consideration for terrain there, as well I'm willing to bet they came up with some very useful fighting formations. Now as to your point about untrained... Goblins would be fighting amongst their tribes their whole lives most likely. That means they've had better experience (training) than most in using guerilla warfare. Now if we're to bring reality or logic into this, which was sort of an absurd situation to begin with, 10,000 goblins wouldn't be fighting together in any form anyway, unless they had a very strong leader, or many. I was suggesting that they took up such warfare because that was the point of the whole thread! Thinking you can keep 10,000 tribal goblins in a group and have them attack anything is delusional as you put it. They'd never have left their mountains for all the infighting. But the point of the thread is that they are together, and they are fighting. My scenario is the most likely for such a group.
Sapp 09-07-05, 10:37 PM	I didn't think that my idea could spawn so much controversy. I thought it was a pretty good idea myself. I really read through the description carefull: Spawn are under the command of the spectre that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life. The spectres are linked in a chain of command. They are enslaved. It didn't sound like they have much of a free will in the matter. They are always lawful evil. If you were talking about shadows (always chaotic evil), which aren't enslaved by their creators, I'd understand. If you really dislike that idea, and want to punish your PCs, then go ahead. For this scenario, the only job of the wizard was to keep the town safe from the goblins. The buildings are standing at the end of the day after the big battle. For that, the wizard was successful. I don't know how a 20+ Int wizard would deal with 9,999 spectres, but I'm sure he can come up with something. If you read back, I already gave the instructions that might be given to a shadow. You could assume the same commands were given to the spectre. "Never attack the villagers. Kill the goblins. For spectres that are created from the corpses, repeat the commands I've given you to them. Blah blah..." No, please don't pick apart the words I used as though they would be the actual words used. I'm sure a 20+ Int wizard would be much more meticulous and precise in his wording. EDIT: In response to Bardic's latest post. You must remember, the goblins need to converge on the town. They can't strike in groups of 100 at a time. That makes them easy pickings for a Solar and the wizard (and gives the wizard time to rest). They must strike in enormous groups to have any effect. Ironically, this makes them more vulnerable to area effects, and the trampling feet of celestial elephants that are summoned by the solar in response. Any way you look at it, the goblins can't even get close. There's a TIME LIMIT on the goblins. Each day they delay, thousands of goblins die. They MUST strike as soon as possible.
Bardicstorm 09-07-05, 10:46 PM	I didn't think that my idea could spawn so much controversy. I thought it was a pretty good idea myself. I really read through the description carefull: Spawn are under the command of the spectre that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life. The spectres are linked in a chain of command. They are enslaved. It didn't sound like they have much of a free will in the matter. They are always lawful evil. If you were talking about shadows (always chaotic evil), which aren't enslaved by their creators, I'd understand. If you really dislike that idea, and want to punish your PCs, then go ahead. For this scenario, the only job of the wizard was to keep the town safe from the goblins. The buildings are standing at the end of the day after the big battle. For that, the wizard was successful. I don't know how a 20+ Int wizard would deal with 9,999 spectres, but I'm sure he can come up with something. If you read back, I already gave the instructions that might be given to a shadow. You could assume the same commands were given to the spectre. "Never attack the villagers. Kill the goblins. For spectres that are created from the corpses, repeat the commands I've given you to them. Blah blah..." No, please don't pick apart the words I used as though they would be the actual words used. I'm sure a 20+ Int wizard would be much more meticulous and precise in his wording. I just think that a smart (14), Lawful Evil critter will attempt to find a loophole by which it can end it's subserviance. In truth, a 20th level wizard with the intelligence he must have would likely account for any loopholes anyway. But, a chain of commands is not the same as direct commands. but then again, in order to convince a spectre to do anything it wouldn't normally (ie, leaving the villagers alone) would take an opposed charisma check. Which for the spectre also isn't bad. Though likely the wizard thought of that too and has buffs ready. I'd love to continue this conversation, but we should likely take this to PMs. Honestly though, I've never understood why you can have a spell like command undead when undead are by their nature immune to mind influencing effect.
Bardicstorm 09-07-05, 10:50 PM	You must remember, the goblins need to converge on the town. They can't strike in groups of 100 at a time. That makes them easy pickings for a Solar and the wizard (and gives the wizard time to rest). They must strike in enormous groups to have any effect. Ironically, this makes them more vulnerable to area effects, and the trampling feet of celestial elephants that are summoned by the solar in response. Any way you look at it, the goblins can't even get close. There's a TIME LIMIT on the goblins. Each day they delay, thousands of goblins die. They MUST strike as soon as possible. Why can't they converge on the town from all different directions at roughly the same time? They don't have to delay, but then, they don't have to attack as one group either. If 100 groups of 100 goblins attack the town from all directions, it's going to at least make it a lot harder on the wizard.
Sapp 09-07-05, 10:54 PM	Why can't they converge on the town from all different directions at roughly the same time? They don't have to delay, but then, they don't have to attack as one group either. If 100 groups of 100 goblins attack the town from all directions, it's going to at least make it a lot harder on the wizard. That's the whole point. If they all attack at the same time, they're BOUND to come in large chunks (highly vulnerable to area spells). Do you think 10,000 goblins can realistically converge on a town without forming large chunks? Can they still be spread out? Also, they can't chuck torches ALL over the town (unless they town is absurdly small, in which case they need to converge even more). If one or two manage to hit the buildings, the fires are put out by the Huge Water Elementals that the Solar was insightful enough to summon (at will, as a special ability). Tell me what you want the size of the town to be first, before continuing your argument. As they converge, they are fired upon by fireballs, trampled by elephants, killed by storm of vengeance... etc... etc... The goblins that DO actually make it to town are killed by the water elementals who tirelessly patrol the streets. Even the villagers can participate if they want to. I know I would. It would be fun. Heroes' feast. No fear. Miracle, Mass Heal, Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Resurrection, Wish... etc... etc.... No Death. EDIT: Oh yeah... Solars have control weather... what's the point of water elementals?... Let me come up with something better... bah... just more celestial elephants is fine. I like the idea of trampling incoming goblins. No more talk about chucking torches over the heads of rampaging elephants a mile or so from town into the windows of buildings please. Let's say the villagers boarded up their windows. EDIT: Who needs spectres... add elemental swarm to the list.
Bardicstorm 09-07-05, 11:07 PM	That's the whole point. If they all attack at the same time, they're BOUND to come in large chunks (highly vulnerable to area spells). Do you think 10,000 goblins can realistically converge on a town without forming large chunks? Can they still be spread out? Also, they can't chuck torches ALL over the town (unless they town is absurdly small, in which case they need to converge even more). If one or two manage to hit the buildings, the fires are put out by the Huge Water Elementals that the Solar was insightful enough to summon (at will, as a special ability). Tell me what you want the size of the town to be first, before continuing your argument. As they converge, they are fired upon by fireballs, trampled by elephants, killed by storm of vengeance... etc... etc... The goblins that DO actually make it to town are killed by the water elementals who tirelessly patrol the streets. Even the villagers can participate if they want to. I know I would. It would be fun. Heroes' feast. No fear. Miracle, Resurrection, and Wish. No Death. Ok, point taken.. on converging they would definately be clumping. Especially if it's a village and not a town... Unless they do it in waves. My point however is not that they would have a chance. My point is that to assume they are so stupid as to stand in one 500'x500' square is rediculous. I like creatures to actually be fairly intelligent if they are. Even if it does get them slaughtered. Also, to those people who are asking what the goblins will do about the new stone wall around town.. um, climb it? Get a ram and break through? it is only 5 inches thick. The better option would be walls of force, angled outward. Or for that matter the wizard could use walls of stone or force or move earth to create a channel that would put the goblins specifically into a 500'x500' square then dust them off. But then really.. wouldn't one wish take care of the whole matter?
LordHell 09-07-05, 11:15 PM	Asymeterical warfare is a fairly modern form of warfare. Up to and In the time where D&D is meant to take place, it was used to good effect but very rarely, and usually under stong leadership AFTER conventional warfare had failed. I used Native American tribes as an example.. but the Goths, the Celts, the Vikings all would work as well. They all used guerilla tactics, strategy, and terrain variations to attain and hold extremely large empires... Yes, the Romans were able to do the same with their huge armies and strictly trained units, but who do you think they had the hardest time with? Yep, the celts. The barbarians who wouldn't stand and fight. I don't know much about the Native Americans and their history, I do know they used Guerilla warfare. Some things I do know about the Native Americans however is that they were defending their own land, not invading someone elses. The Golts and the Celts certainly didnt use any form of Guerella warfare like you are proclaiming - and the vikings raided via amphibious warfare. The Romans actually had a very hard time against the Britons, one of the only ancient groups to every use successful asymeterical warfare, because 1. The Britons knew the countryside. It was their homeland they were defending 2. The Britons were under a strong and charismatic leader who knew the only way to fight the romans through bitter experiance, was asymeterical warfare. [I cant remember the fellows name now, but he was taken to Rome and made the famous speech before the Senate about "Why come to Britian when you have all these pretty buildings in Rome?"] The Goblin situation does not reflect this in the slightest way. 1. The Goblins have amassed together as an assaulting force. They are moving into enemy terriroty, asymeterical warfare for them would be utter suicide and against any historic model. IF anything, this would allow the local townsfolk to defeat the Goblins in detail. 2. The Goblins have distinct distrust amongst each other and have no prior practice to working together. They have only just joined together. They would screw up timing, screw up communications, they are practiced in small clan warfare, not a major operation like this. By Celts I assume you mean Gauls. Vercingetorix certaily didnt fight any form of Guerella warfare against Ceasar, in fact he massed a huge army and assaulted. There were 'patches' of scortched early policy that he employed ,to try and starve the Romans out of Gaul, but again, the Gauls were the defenders and knew the Terrain well. I think if all the players on this board got together and went to battle, you'd see exactly the type of tactics and strategy I'm talking about. Obviously when you hear tactics, strategy, formations, and terrain you think of the roman armies, but why? they were but one in a hundred of such that conquered empires. The mongol hordes didn't use perfectly lined up legions, but you can bet that there was strategy, tactics, and a consideration for terrain there, as well I'm willing to bet they came up with some very useful fighting formations The mongol hordes were fighting as a unit for years, and they didnt exactly use asymeterical warfare either. They surely did use stragey, tactics, and consideration for terrain. They were also united under a very powerful and strong family. If all the players on this board were all massed up and sent to some place to attack, they'd all die. They have no training, no drills, no experiance with fighitng together as units - even small units, no leadership, and no knowledge of the terrain. A lot like the Goblins. Guerilla/asymeterical warfare only works if you're fighting in an area you are massively familiar with, and fighting against an invading force who will loose morale and leave. Even then it's not always a success. Now as to your point about untrained... Goblins would be fighting amongst their tribes their whole lives most likely. That means they've had better experience (training) than most in using guerilla warfare. Trained for fighting against each other yes, but not trained for fighting with each other. For a successful attack to be a success it needs a high level of communication between units in that attack. It doesnt matter if those units are 10 strong, 100 strong, 1000 strong, or 10,000 strong. In order to surround and launch a co-ordanated attack, you're suddenly ditching your asymeterical warfare principal ANYWAY, and a bunch of evil creatures that are just as likely to fight each other than the enemy could never pull of such co-ordanation without drills, training, and leadership. The Goblins would be forced to stick together due to safey in numbers, poor knowledge of the terrain, and harrasement from local forces. They have no idea they're going up against a Wizard 20, and there is 10,000 of them! One puny village surely wont stop them.
Sapp 09-07-05, 11:19 PM	Ok, point taken.. on converging they would definately be clumping. Especially if it's a village and not a town... Unless they do it in waves. My point however is not that they would have a chance. My point is that to assume they are so stupid as to stand in one 500'x500' square is rediculous. Point taken. However, I believe most people arguing against the goblins' formation are really arguing against any formation the goblin takes. Between a level 20 wizard and whatever celestial or fiendish ally he gates, they should be able to come up with a brilliant counter to it. I believe their implied argument is that NO formation would be effective in this case. Though I really wonder why a wizard would bother finishing off the goblins, the OP mentioned that he wants to. The goblins are pretty much screwed. I like creatures to actually be fairly intelligent if they are. Even if it does get them slaughtered. I agree. That's how I like monsters too. If this situation wasn't so heavily engineered by the OP, I would have assumed the goblins would just give up and ran away. You don't expect goblins to stand up to something so far above their level, even 10,000 of them together. Isn't there a morale save involved too? (for challenging something with a CR over 7 higher than your level? Perhaps that was 2nd edition. I don't remember.) Normally, if hundreds of goblins start dying per second, I'd expect them to run. Unlike how many DMs run their monsters (orc warbands that stay till the end... none of them run...), I like to see monsters run with a bit of intelligence. The goblins' 9 int is NOT bad. It should represent at least some tactical skill. The problem is, they are completely outclassed. Int 20+ is beyond human. Also, to those people who are asking what the goblins will do about the new stone wall around town.. um, climb it? Get a ram and break through? it is only 5 inches thick. The better option would be walls of force, angled outward. Or for that matter the wizard could use walls of stone or force or move earth to create a channel that would put the goblins specifically into a 500'x500' square then dust them off. But then really.. wouldn't one wish take care of the whole matter? I don't know about a wall. I'm thinking they wouldn't even get close. A simple wish... Yes, that's the most practical way to think of it. However, I was assuming the goblin supporters would cry foul. So I gave a more objective answer, one that I THOUGHT would leave no room for doubt. Even without the wizard's help, a Solar could really handle the situation by himself.
LordHell 09-07-05, 11:39 PM	I also think Bardicstorm you're forgetting that age old saying. A person is smart, people are stupid. The same applies to Goblins. 1 Goblin on himself may be smart and rational, but put him in a group of 10,000, possibly out in the sunlight and enviroment that he is unsuited to, and that individual goblin's intellect will be consumed by the swarm mass of stupidity. It is perfectly conceivable for the Goblins for form a mob, moving into unchartered territory through a land where almost everything is hostile to them. There have been thousands of examples through-out history where this has happened.
Bardicstorm 09-07-05, 11:42 PM	Ok, this time in pieces... Anything I don't directly respond to, I will accept your point and agree... Asymeterical warfare is a fairly modern form of warfare. Up to and In the time where D&D is meant to take place, it was used to good effect but very rarely, and usually under stong leadership AFTER conventional warfare had failed. Again, how do you explain 10,000 goblins getting together to fight at all without some strong leadership? I don't know much about the Native Americans and their history, I do know they used Guerilla warfare. Some things I do know about the Native Americans however is that they were defending their own land, not invading someone elses. The Golts and the Celts certainly didnt use any form of Guerella warfare like you are proclaiming - and the vikings raided via amphibious warfare. The vikings raided by sea, yes, but they also struck deep into the hearts of enemy territory on foot using such hit and run tactics. They did so deep into brittain, ireland, france, russia, etc. The Romans actually had a very hard time against the Britons, one of the only ancient groups to every use successful asymeterical warfare, because 1. The Britons knew the countryside. It was their homeland they were defending 2. The Britons were under a strong and charismatic leader who knew the only way to fight the romans through bitter experiance, was asymeterical warfare. [I cant remember the fellows name now, but he was taken to Rome and made the famous speech before the Senate about "Why come to Britian when you have all these pretty buildings in Rome?"] Ok, sure. The Goblin situation does not reflect this in the slightest way. I kindly disagree. 1. The Goblins have amassed together as an assaulting force. They are moving into enemy terriroty, asymeterical warfare for them would be utter suicide and against any historic model. IF anything, this would allow the local townsfolk to defeat the Goblins in detail. How do you figure? As small units they are able to move into enemy territory the way they feel most comfortable and the way they have moved as a tribe all their lives. 2. The Goblins have distinct distrust amongst each other and have no prior practice to working together. They have only just joined together. They would screw up timing, screw up communications, they are practiced in small clan warfare, not a major operation like this. Who ever said they only just joined up? if someone did, I missed that. Also, as for timing, "Ok, you all know where the town is. Get there any way you can within two days. Fight along the way if you must, but secrecy is better. We strike the town at dawn in 3 days. Group leaders, relay this." A big fight? yes. A major operation? hardly. If they were trying to coordinate each group to reach there at a specific time to attack this or that flank or provide cover or anything else move complicated I would agree with you. By Celts I assume you mean Gauls. Vercingetorix certaily didnt fight any form of Guerella warfare against Caeasar, in fact he massed a huge army and assaulted. There were 'patches' of scortched early policy that he implyed to try and starve the Romans out of Gaul, but again, they were the defenders. I was actually thinking early brittons... The mongol hordes were fighting as a unit for years, and they didnt exactly use asymeterical warfare either. They surely did use stragey, tactics, and consideration for terrain. They were also united under a very powerful and strong family. Again, the goblins have been fighting in small units for years... they also have to be united under something, or else this would have never started. If all the players on this board were all massed up and sent to some place to attack, they'd all die. They have no training, no drills, no experiance with fighitng together as units - even small units, no leadership, and no knowledge of the terrain. A lot like the Goblins.[QUOTE=LordHell] Wrong, the people on this board as a whole have no combat experience (obviously, some do) Furthermore, they are not attacking another army, they are attacking a small town. I think if everyone got together from these boards and raided a small town with no guns allowed, they'd do fine. [QUOTE=LordHell]Guerilla/asymeterical warfare only works if you're fighting in an area you are massively familiar with, and fighting against overwhelming odds. Even then it's not always a success. Just because they're attacking doesn't mean they don't know the area.. They may have always lived in the area and this is a territorial dispute. They are also likely to have very good scouts. Trained for fighting against each other yes, but not trained for fighting with each other. Thus the small groups. Fighting with their own tribe members, only against a common enemy instead. The combat tactics would be the same, at least in getting to the town. For a successful attack to be a success it needs a high level of communication between units in that attack. It doesnt matter if those units are 10 strong, 100 strong, 1000 strong, or 10,000 strong. I disagree... Only if you want the attack to be an organized success.. a pack of wild dogs with absolutely no tactics or strategy can still take out a less violent foe. Would the poor communication enhance the chances of the town (again, ignoring the wizard)? Sure, but they're still outnumbered at least 2 to 1. In order to surround and launch a co-ordanated attack, you're suddenly ditching your asymeterical warfare principal ANYWAY, and a bunch of evil creatures that are just as likely to fight each other than the enemy could never pull of such co-ordanation without drills, training, and leadership. Actually, I was using the small groups to get into place. And again, we assume they must've gotten over the infighting problem since thery're in a group of 10,000 anyway. As for the final assault on the town, when a goblin sees others running towards the town, they will too.. Thus only a few need to know "at dawn" but if they all know, it's not hard to pull off. I guarantee I could pull of this kind of coordination with any number of individuals. It's not a difficult concept. Now, I suppose it really does depend on how you give your orders... If everyone hears the same order it will work.. but if you tell two people and rely on them to tell two people.. yeah, it'll likely fail. Regardless, my whole point in this is that no matter how you look at it, the goblins would not be standing in ranks of 100 goblins by 100 goblins. You really can't disagree with that. They would at the very least understand flanking and try to have at least three groups.
Sapp 09-07-05, 11:53 PM	I just realized that Solars can't make water elementals with their elemental swarm spell. They can only make air elementals. That wouldn't help against fire, but again, the windows are boarded, and it's raining heavily (control weather, 2 mile radius, very high humidity) so let's just forget the silly "torch the city" ordeal shall we? Mass air elementals would do well regardless of what formation the goblins are in, because air elementals are the fastest of all elementals. 100 fly speed (perfect). Only the solar itself would be faster than them in this scenario. That's about 100 feet covered per round while in whirlwind mode. 15 feet wide. Regardless of formation, they would never reach the town. The elementals are coming straight from the town at them.
Bardicstorm 09-07-05, 11:56 PM	I also think Bardicstorm you're forgetting that age old saying. A person is smart, people are stupid. The same applies to Goblins. Too true. But then, that's also why I wanted them in smaller groups. Keeping in mind that goblins (by the MM1) have a +6 to hide and +4 to move silently. It's easier to do so in smaller groups than large ones, and if there's threats on all side (again, was this mentioned?), it would be more likely for them to split up and try to move to their objective in small, easily concealed (by commoner standards) groups.
LordHell 09-07-05, 11:57 PM	Again, how do you explain 10,000 goblins getting together to fight at all without some strong leadership? Because of these conditions the OP of this thread set: A horde of goblins has just lost their warlord to abduction and now have no one to lead them. They decide to wander around until they find him. Despite the lack of a leader they still decide to stick together and the entire warband marches around in typical horde fashion. Hardly sounds like they're being lead by Ghengis Khan now doesnt it? I actually replied to many of your points 1 by 1, but I found myself repeating the critera outlayed by the original poster, so I can't be bothered repeating myself. He has stated they march around in horde fashion, thus they do.
Bardicstorm 09-07-05, 11:59 PM	A simple wish... Yes, that's the most practical way to think of it. However, I was assuming the goblin supporters would cry foul. So I gave a more objective answer, one that I THOUGHT would leave no room for doubt. Even without the wizard's help, a Solar could really handle the situation by himself. Yeah, I agree, the Solar would have it well in hand. (Although an ambiguity in the gate text leads one to think the solar might only fight for 1 round before leaving. Not saying I agree, but it could be taken that way.)
Bardicstorm 09-08-05, 12:04 AM	He has stated they march around in horde fashion, thus they do. Hmm.. ok, I missed that. As it wasn't in the first post, nor did I see it in the subsequent posts. I also missed the warlord part.. in fact, I think I missed the entire post you are referring to. I reiterate, however, that any DM who creates such a situation isn't playing the goblins the way they should be. I am in complete agreement with you that there would be infighting. But, I believe it would take place long before 10,000 goblins agreed unanimously on anything. Ignore my thoughts on tactics then in deference to the OP Situation. But with a new warlord...
LordHell 09-08-05, 12:10 AM	I was basically arguing the situation that was intended by the OP - leaderless goblins. Yeah, give them a strong decent warlord who can unite them and you'll be looking at little green mongols.
Sapp 09-08-05, 12:14 AM	Yeah, I agree, the Solar would have it well in hand. (Although an ambiguity in the gate text leads one to think the solar might only fight for 1 round before leaving. Not saying I agree, but it could be taken that way.) I see why you might be confused by the text. Personally I thought it was very clear. Gate has two purposes: From Planar Travel section: You may hold the gate open only for a brief time (no more than 1 round per caster level), and you must concentrate on doing so, or else the interplanar connection is severed. However, the section on Calling Creatures using Gate it clearly states that the creatures is commanded by you for whatever task you choose as long as you pay the appropriate amount suggested. For a task that takes many days, it would cost 1000 gp per HD. Personally, I don't think this task would take more than 20 hours (1 hour per caster level), so the wizard would really only need to pay 500 gp per HD. I want there to be no doubt who the winner would be (neither does the wizard), so let's just say the wizard chose to gate a 40 HD solar. BAB +40. AC ~50. Even more spell like abilities. Caster level 38. More miracles. More storm of vengeance. Absurd Regeneration rate. Absurd damage reduction. Etc. Just reading past the summary of duration "instantaneous or concentration (1 round per caster level)" clearly reveals what the "instantaneous" part refers to (calling creatures) and what the "concentration" refers to (planar travel). Note, that's "calling" not summoning. So the solar can even summon more creatures using it's summon monster VII special ability (usable at will, infinite times).
LordHell 09-08-05, 12:22 AM	Heck the Wizard once he gets wind of the Goblins approach could just Hallucinary Terrain 600ft of the village, provided its a small little hommlet, and make it look like a small lake or something unpassable. Unless the Goblins actually interact with it, they dont get a will save. Presumably they'd just march around it in continuation of their 'search'. If the village takes up a larger area than 600ft cubes then the Wizard could possibly cast multiple versions of the spell and cover a wide area.
Bardicstorm 09-08-05, 12:25 AM	I see why you might be confused by the text. Personally I thought it was very clear. Gate has two purposes: From Planar Travel section: You may hold the gate open only for a brief time (no more than 1 round per caster level), and you must concentrate on doing so, or else the interplanar connection is severed. However, the section on Calling Creatures using Gate it clearly states that the creatures is commanded by you for whatever task you choose as long as you pay the appropriate amount suggested. For a task that takes many days, it would cost 1000 gp per HD. Personally, I don't think this task would take more than 20 hours (1 hour per caster level), so the wizard would really only need to pay 500 gp per HD. I want there to be no doubt who the winner would be (neither does the wizard), so let's just say the wizard chose to gate a 40 HD solar. BAB +40. AC ~50. Even more spell like abilities. Caster level 38. More miracles. More storm of vengeance. Absurd Regeneration rate. Absurd damage reduction. Etc. Just reading past the summary of duration "instantaneous or concentration (1 round per caster level)" clearly reveals what the "instantaneous" part refers to (calling creatures) and what the "concentration" refers to (planar travel). Note, that's "calling" not summoning. So the solar can even summon more creatures using it's summon monster VII special ability (usable at will, infinite times). Well, yes, if you want to pay for the service, which I agree would be the best bet. I was referring to the abiguity in what you can ask the controlled creature to do. (ie, fighting in a single battle or any other tasks that can be accomplished in one roundper caster level). This is somewhat ambiguous. But if you pay him, yep, I think you'd be in the clear.
Sapp 09-08-05, 01:39 AM	This thread has got me really interested in create greater undead. Now that I think of it, wraiths and spectres seem like horrendously broken creatures to summon. With proper instruction to your original, you could effectively have an exponentially growing army. Of course, this DOES require a level 15 caster (and normally, you'd expect those to have at least some form of significant army), but does anyone find the spell disturbing? Naturally occuring spectres might haunt a place, as pointed out by some, but one that's commanded to conquer? It seems rather scary. What's holding this in check is the fact that command undead only lasts for two to three weeks depending on caster level. Should permanency or wish work to make the command on the spectre/wraith permanent? It lasts long enough anyway, so I'd assume that adding permanency/wish-permanency to it doesn't make that much difference. How do you all rule this?
Aerunation 09-08-05, 01:52 AM	...even a level 20 fighter could defeat 10,000 goblins.
PhaedrusXY 09-08-05, 03:10 AM	I think you people are failing to understand just how vast of an area 10,000 creatures take up. Flying up and down in wooded areas and the like is possible but he would'nt be able to zip up and down the entire length of an approaching army spread out. Keep in mind, a Goblin's base speed is 30 like an average medium creature so they can cover quite a bit of terrain when running/jogging.Ever been to a rock concert? Or a college football game? I have. I've been to both with alot more than 10,000 people at them. 10,000 isn't really that many, as far as crowds of people go. They don't necessarily take up that much room. If a DRAGON flew overhead at one of those concerts or football games, I have no doubt that half those people would be crushed to death in the panic of trying to flee, lol. However, let's give the goblins the benefit of the doubt, and say they have spread out some. The dragon/wizard can cover a mile in 6.5 rounds, and he can completely ignore terrain difficulties, unlike our little goblin buddies. The radius on his frightful presence is 210 feet, and creatures that fail their saves remain panicked for 4d6 rounds (avg 14) if they fail a save. They'll only be passing that save on a natural 20. Even if the goblins RAN the entire 2 miles, it would take them 88 rounds of game time, and that is over a completely unobstructed area. Since there is no way in hell they could possibly run that far, the best they'll be able to hope for is a march (i.e. double moving every round). That means it will take them at least 176 rounds to get to the town. Since this is supposed to be a small village, let's assume that it's largest side is half a mile wide (I think this is reasonable. Any bigger than that is not really a "small village"). The goblins are going to have to bunch up a bit to attack the town, so let's say that as they approach, they are all spread out over an area no more than half a mile wide. The farthest they could run full speed is about a quarter of a mile before having to rest. So let's say they are spread out over an area no more than 1/2 mile across for the last 1/2 mile of their "march", and that they "charge" for the last 1/4 mile. It will take them over 30 rounds to cover that last 1/2 mile in this manner. The Hasted dragon/wizard could fly down the entire length of their frontline in 3 rounds, covering a swath around 400 feet wide with his fear aura. A goblin running full speed would take 4 rounds to run across that 400 foot distance. So basically, no goblins are going to make it across without passing through the fear aura. This would cause almost all the goblins in the front ranks to panic, and try to flee in the best manner possible for an average of 14 rounds. This should slow down the other goblins, as they have to worry about being trampled by their fleeing comrades. Even if it doesn't slow them down at all, the wizard could repeat this flyby 10 times* or so before the goblins get to the town, and only 1 in 20 goblins is going to make his saving throw and not panic. Of course... it's going to slow the majority of them down... alot. (*Let's assume the wizard has a Lesser Restoration potion to get rid of his fatigue halfway through this, since he's been planning this and is supposed to be prepared.) Let's say our wizard thinks these goblins might be tenacious and not retreat completely after seeing this dragon fly up and down their ranks a few times, panicking the majority of them, all the while laughing maniacally at their pathetic attempts to hurt him. So before he leaves to harrass the goblins in dragon form, he Gates in a Pit Fiend. The Pit Fiend is put on "guard duty" near the edge of the town. The Pit Fiend Teleports around and Fireballs any goblins that make their saves vs. fear and get within view of the town. He can do both at will. The Pit Fiend can also can summon in some other devils for help, since he was Called himself, and hence his summoning powers are still active. So if the goblins are coming in too fast for him to kill them all, he summons an Ice Devil, which can also Teleport at will, as well as cast Cone of Cold at will. The Ice Devil also teleports around and kills any goblins that come within sight of the town. Between the wizard's scaring the crap out of them to slow them down, and stopping to breathe on them occasionally if he feels he has time, and the two devils teleporting around and wiping up any that manage to slip by the "Wall of Fear" that the wizard is using to turn back their ranks, they should manage to defeat the goblins before they can do any signifigant damage to the town. The wizard still only used 3 spells and 3 magic items (one a potion) the entire time. Unfortunately, he'd have to pay the XP cost for the Gate spell, but it's well worth it to him to save his friends, I'm sure. Also, the original question was whether 10,000 goblins could KILL the wizard. During this entire exercise, the wizard was never in any danger. And has been stated, the idea of 10,000 goblins "sneaking up" on a 20th level wizard is one of the most absurd things I've ever seen posted on this board (and that is saying alot). Edit: I guess I should have read through the entire thread before typing all this crap up. Looks like the Solar summoning infinite Water Elementals all the while casting Storms of Vengance is a better option than the Pit Fiend. :D The spectres were a good idea, too, but I'd hate to have to worry about them getting loose somehow... An army of 10,000 spectres is a LOT bigger problem than an army of 10,000 goblins, lol.
Sapp 09-08-05, 04:19 AM	Edit: I guess I should have read through the entire thread before typing all this crap up. Looks like the Solar summoning infinite Water Elementals all the while casting Storms of Vengance is a better option than the Pit Fiend. :D The spectres were a good idea, too, but I'd hate to have to worry about them getting loose somehow... An army of 10,000 spectres is a LOT bigger problem than an army of 10,000 goblins, lol. Hahaha. Yeah. If this wasn't an isolated environment that the OP purposely engineered for the faceoff between an army of goblins and wizard who can't just ignore them, I wouldn't have even considered the spectre option. I mean, if the environment wasn't isolated, I'd be extremely worried about my original spectre. I know the goblins can't possibly harm him, but what if a rival wizard decided to teleport in and kill the head honcho spectre at the most inopportune time? Then you've got thousands of rogue spectres governed only by the dozens of 1st generation spectres created by the original (who has been destroyed). That's not a good position to be in. Haha. But for this isolated situation, the option is too good to resist. An inverted magic circle, a create greater undead, and a command undead or two, and you're set to have a 10,000 man... er... undead army. Assuming nothing happens to the original, they do make pretty loyal servants. Sure, it's a complicated chain of command, but the fact is, they have no free will and are described as enslaved as long as the original is under your command. Always lawful evil. Enslaved. I like those two words put together. Lawful... Enslaved... Of course, the Solar is safer. This thread has really forced me to appreciate the Solar. I used to wonder before how the Hell a solar has a CR of 23. A CR of 23 means it should beat two pit fiends (CR 22 if put together) or two balors. It didn't sound right. For this thread, I just randomly searched through the CR listings in the MM1 and found the Solar as one of the highest. After going through the options at the Solar's disposal, I have this new respect for the solar. The designers built this guy to be a one man army. Mass heals, miracles, wishes (SP, no XP cost!), heroes' feast, mass cures, storm of vengeance, summon monster VII, IMPRISONMENT (AT WILL, DC 26; OH MY GOD!), waves of fatigue and exhaustion,... this guy was meant to turn large wars around. Larger wars, against much more significant armies than a mere 10,000 goblin army. I've never really seen a solar in action, but now that I've thought about it, I have new respect for it. I don't think the water elemental idea is that great anymore. I realized that the solar can just cast control weather and ask for rain and heavy humidity. Between that and the boarded windows, there won't be any fire to worry about. (I wonder what movement penalties goblins would get walking through soaked ground/dirt/mud.) A dozen elemental swarms (air) cast in advance should be enough elementals. Yes, I mean dozen of those swarms. Obviously a 40 HD Solar has more cleric levels than a 22 HD one (along with Epic feats and perhaps epic spells as well). Also, I want the wizard to be extra freaking generous, providing him with elemental swarm scrolls. The wizard has enough gold. I want elementals rammed up each of the goblins... nevermind. The air elementals summoned this way would last several hours (10 min per level). That's four score or more elementals, a dozen of those being greater elementals. Each one lasting several hours. Water elementals aren't fast enough, so the solar would probably use Avorals to guard the town while celestial elephants go out trampling over groups of goblins. The air elementals (large, huge, and greater) summoned by elemental swarm will hunt the skies for goblin blimps since the ground is obviously covered by the elephants (yes, MTG has infected my mind... goblin blimps... haha). Avorals would make better guards for the town than elementals (even the speedy air elementals) because they can dimension door at will, which I realized, from reading your post, is quite useful. They can use magic missiles on singleton goblins that are far (but they otherwise wouldn't want to waste time dimension dooring to). All of these monsters summoned have DR 10 of course. Meanwhile, while all the solar has to do is sit in town, summoning others to do the dirty work, it stays back in base guarding it. Even if some of the goblins tripped over an invisibility potion (yes, it's absurd, but so is the notion that 10,000 goblins can "sneak" anywhere), they wouldn't make it past. Solars see true invisibility, etherealness, blur, etc. They have true seeing (on always; dispellable but repairable as automatic actions.). Pit fiends are great too, but I don't think they can resurrect. Again, I wanted to quash doubt on who would win. Sure, I'm using the proverbial hammer for a fly, but I believe it was needed to get some sense across to people who don't want it. (Besides, it's much more "fun" for the villagers to have a Solar ally. No fear, good auras, guaranteed resurrection... They're free to volunteer to shoot at a goblin or two, or whack one over the head. The solar would probably be too busy summoning to be bothered by a farmer, but I'm sure one of the many bored Avorals would be willing to cast an aid or two on some villagers. A pit fiend doesn't have as many beneficial spells. No "fun".)
Etharion 09-08-05, 05:01 AM	I agree with most what is said here, but i think the wizard WOULD win. EVEN (and thats a big even) if the wizard is suprised, he would win. The goblins would probably swarm him thinking "Yeah we got him outnumbered, he's got no chance!!" and they would have some moral bonus. But when the wizard suddenly kills a few hundred of them it would be "Goblin soldier: Master! We just lost Snaga and our entire west wing! Goblin commander: How much men is that? Goblin soldier: about.... 3000 warriors. Goblin commander: Bloody hell! Chaps, fall back!! Well let the masters dragons have a go against this bastard! " Even with critical hits, the wizard who has protection from arrows would barely feel them. And with a whole load of area effect spells and the works, the previous scenario isnt so unbelivable. Goblins ARE cowardly creatures. Seeing a few thousands of their buddies bite the dust in a matter of minutes, would probably shake there moral a bit. They would be running for it in minutes. There's just so much stuff a 20lvl. wizard has up his sleave, that its a miracle he can even keep it all up his sleave!!
Lord Ian Stark 09-08-05, 09:06 AM	Storm of Vengence takes up 406,944 square feet. 360-ft.-radius storm cloud What am I missing here. A 360 ft radius is not 406,944 feet. Where in the world did you get that idea? Are you multipling the distance the wizard can cast a 360 ft radius by 360 or somethng? The distance of a spell is not the area the spell effects. It's where the wizard can place it. So he could place a 360 ft radius cloud anywhere in the distance of the spell. Maybe I'm wrong but I seriously doubt what your saying there. Even metamagic feets won't get it near that size of 406,944 ft!!! As far as gating in a Solar of 40 HD, I would ask if a solar is a unique creature or not as the gate spell leaves it up to the solar to be gated in or not. Solars by definition are usually close attendants to a deity as they are the most powerful angel there is. Also you can't "command" a unique creature. Something tells me the word unique is left over from second edition D&D as monsters are no longer classed as being common, rare, unique, ect. so this is probrably a mute point that needs errata. However if the Solar does want to help fight, it wouldl be very devistating to the goblin force. ;) Lets talk about surrounding the town in walls of iron or stone. Well each wall is 20 feet long. (1ft per caster level) This is also a 6th level spell. I don't see the wizard having nearly enough spells to suround a town. Even a small one would require many, many walls of 20 ft long. You can have some staffs that may create this, but they only have so many charges and are at a lower caster level. Also wands can ony be made from 4th level spells or lower.
Oorlof 09-08-05, 10:14 AM	What am I missing here. A 360 ft radius is not 406,944 feet. Where in the world did you get that idea? Are you multipling the distance the wizard can cast a 360 ft radius by 360 or somethng? The distance of a spell is not the area the spell effects. It's where the wizard can place it. So he could place a 360 ft radius cloud anywhere in the distance of the spell. Maybe I'm wrong but I seriously doubt what your saying there. Even metamagic feets won't get it near that size of 406,944 ft!!! You don't think he's talking about area covered, maybe? Area A of an r-radius circle = Pi times r^2. In this case, that comes to about 406,944 square foot.
Bardicstorm 09-08-05, 10:34 AM	What am I missing here. A 360 ft radius is not 406,944 feet. Where in the world did you get that idea? Are you multipling the distance the wizard can cast a 360 ft radius by 360 or somethng? The distance of a spell is not the area the spell effects. It's where the wizard can place it. So he could place a 360 ft radius cloud anywhere in the distance of the spell. Maybe I'm wrong but I seriously doubt what your saying there. Even metamagic feets won't get it near that size of 406,944 ft!!! As far as gating in a Solar of 40 HD, I would ask if a solar is a unique creature or not as the gate spell leaves it up to the solar to be gated in or not. Solars by definition are usually close attendants to a deity as they are the most powerful angel there is. Also you can't "command" a unique creature. Something tells me the word unique is left over from second edition D&D as monsters are no longer classed as being common, rare, unique, ect. so this is probrably a mute point that needs errata. However if the Solar does want to help fight, it wouldl be very devistating to the goblin force. ;) Lets talk about surrounding the town in walls of iron or stone. Well each wall is 20 feet long. (1ft per caster level) This is also a 6th level spell. I don't see the wizard having nearly enough spells to suround a town. Even a small one would require many, many walls of 20 ft long. You can have some staffs that may create this, but they only have so many charges and are at a lower caster level. Also wands can ony be made from 4th level spells or lower. Ok, let's do the math, shall we? Storm of Vengeance has a radius of 360'. The formula for a circles area is: A = (pi)*r2 So, with a radius of 360' we have: A = (pi)*3602 After the radius is squared we have: A = (pi)*129,600 Pi is equal to 3.141592... We'll use 3.1415 Now we have A = 3.1415 * 129,600 Which means we have: A = 407,138.4 Which is the spells area. Now... as to your point about the walls... 1. I believe it was said the wizard had like 3 days to prepare. 2. Wall of stone creates a wall of 5' squares per level. Which means if he wants to do the wall 5' high he can make it 100' long each cast. 5'*20. If he wants the wall 10' high he can make it 50' long each cast. At 15' high it would be 30' long but with 2 wall sections left over. Now. if the village was half a square mile on each side (reasonable enough) it would be 2640' on each side... meaning 10,560' total length of walls. Divided by 5' sections, that's 2112. Now we divide that by 10 (for his level (20) but halved to make the wall 10' high) and we get 211.2. This means he has to cast the spell 212 times. Now Wall of stone is a 5th level spell. Seeing as how he can use a higher level spell slot to memorize a lower level spell, this wizard could conceivably memorize and cast wall of stone 20 times per day. Thus needing 10.5 days to fully surround the village. However, at 20th level it's not inconceivable that the wizard has a couple wands of wall of stone laying around. Thus, with 50 charges a piece, he could surround fully half the town in about 100 rounds. Which is 10 minutes. Thus leaving him about 2 days to finish the work. Additional wands or scrolls would also speed things up. So, while you were incorrect about the size of the walls created, it would still be a impossible for the wizard to surround the village without wands and scrolls. But I'm willing to bet he has them. EDIT: I forgot that wands can only go up to 4th level spells, unless you're using epic rules. (which at 20th level he almost can.) Still.. he could possibly have enough scrolls laying around, especially if he was planning on adding to his keep at any point in time. EDIT 2: About the Solar. You don't need one at 40HD. In fact the basic solar from the MM1 is only 22 HD. You could summon up to a 39 HD solar and command it. Even with a 40 HD Solar, it will usually agree to helping for some payment, as per the gate spell. Furthermore, Unique creatures I believe have been covered in 3.5 Ed. They do exist, but none of the creatures in the MM1 are unique as far as I know.
BlaineTog 09-08-05, 10:43 AM	What am I missing here. A 360 ft radius is not 406,944 feet. Where in the world did you get that idea? Are you multipling the distance the wizard can cast a 360 ft radius by 360 or somethng? The distance of a spell is not the area the spell effects. It's where the wizard can place it. So he could place a 360 ft radius cloud anywhere in the distance of the spell. Maybe I'm wrong but I seriously doubt what your saying there. Even metamagic feets won't get it near that size of 406,944 ft!!!You have clearly never taken a geometry course. That said, pi360^2= ~407,150 sq. feet, not 406,944. But really, it's all the same. As far as gating in a Solar of 40 HD, I would ask if a solar is a unique creature or not as the gate spell leaves it up to the solar to be gated in or not. Solars by definition are usually close attendants to a deity as they are the most powerful angel there is. Also you can't "command" a unique creature.Nor would you. The wizard would pay the solar for his help, and I don't think it unlikely that a solar, given the option, would help save a town from destruction, especially given that he's in quite literally no danger of dying. Lets talk about surrounding the town in walls of iron or stone. Well each wall is 20 feet long. (1ft per caster level)Re-read the spell description. This is also a 6th level spell.No, it's fifth for a wizard. I don't see the wizard having nearly enough spells to suround a town.Of course he won't have enough spells to surround it in one day. I never said that. If the wizard likes this little town, and the little town surrounds his tower, I don't think it at all unlikely that he might spend a week or two making a good strong wall around it. All it really costs him is some time and effort. Of course, he could also use fabricate if the surrounding area has lots of stone in it. Or not. It's his choice, really. You can have some staffs that may create this, but they only have so many charges and are at a lower caster level.Staves use your caster level, dude. In the future, you might wanna brush up on these things before arguing with them.
Bane 09-08-05, 11:19 AM	How about a 13th level character? Cleric 2/Bard 1/Master of Shrouds 10. How about a Pale Master who already has an Undead army? How about a necromancer who uses Fell Animate on his spells. A Fell Animating Widened Fireball is 7th level, and will turn a 40' radius of goblins into undead.
BlaineTog 09-08-05, 11:27 AM	Now Wall of stone is a 5th level spell. Seeing as how he can use a higher level spell slot to memorize a lower level spell, this wizard could conceivably memorize and cast wall of stone 20 times per day.27, actually. Don't forget bonus spells (this wizard has an Int of 30). So, while you were incorrect about the size of the walls created, it would still be a impossible for the wizard to surround the village without wands and scrolls.Impossible in three days without wands or staves, true, but not impossible if he was smart enough to do this far ahead of time.
Bardicstorm 09-08-05, 11:37 AM	27, actually. Don't forget bonus spells (this wizard has an Int of 30). oops.. yeah, I forgot. I was busy with the math and flipping between the books. Impossible in three days without wands or staves, true, but not impossible if he was smart enough to do this far ahead of time. Yes, but I was assuming the 3 days to prepare.. Of course he likely did this when he founded the town/village and is a moot point. Although, Like I said, if he was planning on addin on to his tower at some point soon, he may have enough scrolls laying around.
Sapp 09-08-05, 11:38 AM	What am I missing here. A 360 ft radius is not 406,944 feet. Where in the world did you get that idea? Are you multipling the distance the wizard can cast a 360 ft radius by 360 or somethng? The distance of a spell is not the area the spell effects. It's where the wizard can place it. So he could place a 360 ft radius cloud anywhere in the distance of the spell. Maybe I'm wrong but I seriously doubt what your saying there. Even metamagic feets won't get it near that size of 406,944 ft!!! I'll leave this alone, but just remember that he said 406,944 SQUARE feet. You'll learn about his method of calculation in high school geometry. As far as gating in a Solar of 40 HD, I would ask if a solar is a unique creature or not as the gate spell leaves it up to the solar to be gated in or not. Solars by definition are usually close attendants to a deity as they are the most powerful angel there is. Also you can't "command" a unique creature. Something tells me the word unique is left over from second edition D&D as monsters are no longer classed as being common, rare, unique, ect. so this is probrably a mute point that needs errata. However if the Solar does want to help fight, it wouldl be very devistating to the goblin force. ;) Gate compells any creature to help you up to twice your caster level in HD. That's 40 HD of Angel helping you. Yes, this was described in 2nd edition, and I did have that book (can't find anymore). The only unique creature in the MM1 is the Tarrasque. People don't say "A tarrasque." People say "The Tarrasque." There is more than one Solar. You said it yourself. They are usually attendants of deities. Plural on attendants. Unless this solar is an actual NPC with a name, it's not unique. Lets talk about surrounding the town in walls of iron or stone. Well each wall is 20 feet long. (1ft per caster level) This is also a 6th level spell. I don't see the wizard having nearly enough spells to suround a town. Even a small one would require many, many walls of 20 ft long. You can have some staffs that may create this, but they only have so many charges and are at a lower caster level. Also wands can ony be made from 4th level spells or lower. I don't know about stone walls. I don't care. I never said anything about that. I don't think the goblins will even get close. There is heavy rain of within a 2-mile radius of the town. It's hard for them to tell what areas are being bombard by natural rain, and what parts are bombarded by acid rain. To top that off, a several enormous whirlwinds (air elementals) are literally chasing them. It seems like quite a frightening scene, something that (if 2nd edition rules were still around), would force a morale save on the goblins (who'd all fail unless they rolled natural 20s). Unfortunately, morale saves for non-magical fear effects are now at the discretion of the DM's common sense, so I'll give the benefit of the doubt and just give the goblins Fearless (20) for morale, because I now know, some DM really do lack this common sense. The Solar would be high above the village, and would naturally see large groups of goblins approaching. He'd blast them with waves of exhaustion or chain lightning or just send an elephant or elemental at them. The few goblins that do get past a score of really fast whirlwinds, about 14-16 celestial elephants, pouring rain/acid rain/hail, will be noticed. Again, I'll give the goblins a huge advantage by saying that the Solar doesn't see them (he's too focused on the large groups). That's ok. That's why I specifically chose Avorals for this task. An avoral’s visual acuity is virtually unmatched: It can see detail on objects up to 10 miles away and is said to be able to discern the color of a creature’s eyes at 200 paces. ... and they have dimension door (at will). About four Avorals in town, and it becomes completely safe. Villagers would let their stray infants to wander the streets to watch the fun if it wasn't for the rain. In fact, with the help of aid (during battle, by the obviously bored Avorals) and promised after-battle restoration those infants are probably safe from catching a cold as well. So even if you were to argue that some goblin might sneeze and a stray bit of germs shot out (past heavy rain and living whirlwinds) landed about a mile away on an infant's cheek and caused the infant to become sick, the infant is promised restoration afterwards. Since the Avorals are being summoned constantly to replace ones that have ended the 20 round duration, they'll be using up their lightning bolts before they leave. That's about a lightning bolts every one or two rounds with no effort from the Solar. Collateral damage can be fixed by the 20 Djinns, all of whom have major creation, after the battle, before the end of the day.
BlaineTog 09-08-05, 11:47 AM	I don't know about stone walls. I don't care. I never said anything about that. I don't think the goblins will even get close.Oh I completelly agree. The stone walls are there for the same reason you chose to gate in a Solar: overkill. I want to be absolutelly sure that no goblin has anywhere near a snowball's chance in the elemental plane of fire of doing any damage to the town.
Bardicstorm 09-08-05, 11:52 AM	Ok, that's it... Thank you Sapp, I think I'm never letting solars into any of my games. Ever. If you had never mentioned it, I don't think I'd have ever realized just how unballanced this guy is. Only a CR 19 for this guy. He'd eat a group of 19s for breakfast. Think of this.. he can use permanency 3 times per day. Plus cast cleric spells at 20th level. How has he not spent all his time as a Solar casting buffs and permanency on himself every day, three times per day? You could easily argue that the stats in the MM1 are somewhat unrepresentative of that.
Sapp 09-08-05, 11:57 AM	Ok, that's it... Thank you Sapp, I think I'm never letting solars into any of my games. Ever. If you had never mentioned it, I don't think I'd have ever realized just how unballanced this guy is. Only a CR 19 for this guy. He'd eat a group of 19s for breakfast. Think of this.. he can use permanency 3 times per day. Plus cast cleric spells at 20th level. How has he not spent all his time as a Solar casting buffs and permanency on himself every day, three times per day? You could easily argue that the stats in the MM1 are somewhat unrepresentative of that. Actually, he's CR 23. (Worth every point of it.) The permanent buffing is at the DM's discretion. It's the same way you wouldn't expect Demogorgon to be naked when he has his item creation ability. Of course, some DMs use monsters straight from the book, but like you, I like my monsters to have a brain and forethought. If you want, let's say this 40 HD solar (with about 38 Cleric levels) has all the quintessential buffs. Haste, eagle's splendor, bull's strength, etc, etc. After all, permanency has no XP cost as a spell-like ability. EDIT: Oh WOW, between him and the wizard, they can make permanent walls of force around the town at NO XP COST! akdlakfjs!@#!!. Next time I get a level 20 wizard, I'm summoning a Solar for abuse.
Bardicstorm 09-08-05, 12:40 PM	Actually, he's CR 23. (Worth every point of it.) I was actually just going off the 22 HD Solar in the 3.0 MM1 (which is CR 19), unfortunately I often forget that my MM1 is the 3.0 version and things are likely to have changed. The permanent buffing is at the DM's discretion. It's the same way you wouldn't expect Demogorgon to be naked when he has his item creation ability. Of course, some DMs use monsters straight from the book, but like you, I like my monsters to have a brain and forethought. If you want, let's say this 40 HD solar (with about 38 Cleric levels) has all the quintessential buffs. Haste, eagle's splendor, bull's strength, etc, etc. After all, permanency has no XP cost as a spell-like ability. EDIT: Oh WOW, between him and the wizard, they can make permanent walls of force around the town at NO XP COST! akdlakfjs!@#!!. Next time I get a level 20 wizard, I'm summoning a Solar for abuse. Seriously, the thing is way overpowerful. I think the god it serves would likely get a little :censored: at losing the services of it's solar for even a short time. I'd be a little wary of even sending a level 25 group after this thing.
psetzer 09-08-05, 01:00 PM	Just a quick little reminder for people considering Storm of Vengance. It's Druid 9/Cleric 9, although you can expect the Solar which always seems to be Gated in to have it readied. I think that this is also a great demonstration of how powerful those two classes can be as well.
Bardicstorm 09-08-05, 01:16 PM	You know.. just for fun since the goblins are all grouped together... A 20th level wizard with 30 int can cast Reverse Gravity 15 times. Also, as a 20th level wizard he can do 20 10' cubes with each cast. Sure it'll take longer, and a fair portion of goblins will survive. But the entertainment value for the wizard can't be overlooked.
Sapp 09-08-05, 03:02 PM	It's funny how much this thread has evolved. It started off as 1. "Goblins need to kill wizard, wizard needs to kill goblins. That's all." (Which is solved by contingency teleport.) Then it turned into 2. "Goblins win if they survive until wizard gets bored and decides to leave to prepare his stronger spells." (Haha!... but that's also solved by ring of sustenance, some potions of restoration, and a couple of eternal wands for some sleepless nights of goblin sniping.) Finally it became 3. "Goblins win if a single one of them reaches the wizard's town to chuck a torch which will guarantee the destruction of at least one building, which cannot be repaired by the incompetent villagers." Very funny. The thread had been dragged out so long, I think it would have been easier for the wizard to deal with 3 or 4 tarrasques simultaneously charging at the town. (10 minutes at most, probably less). Just a quick little reminder for people considering Storm of Vengance. It's Druid 9/Cleric 9, although you can expect the Solar which always seems to be Gated in to have it readied. I think that this is also a great demonstration of how powerful those two classes can be as well. Yeah, casters in general are very powerful when used creatively. I don't think Storm of Vengeance is absolutely necessary, considering that the Solar's spell-like abilities should be enough, but it's just a little icing on the cake. EDIT: ... but remember, the wizard had time to prepare. The solar could easily have it prepared even if he didn't initially have it. Not that it's needed, but I really don't want to leave room for doubt. Those 1,000 odd goblins who would be killed by the storm are very important to me.
BlaineTog 09-08-05, 04:09 PM	The thread had been dragged out so long, I think it would have been easier for the wizard to deal with 3 or 4 tarrasques simultaneously charging at the town. (10 minutes at most, probably less).Three rounds, maybe more for transit time if the tarrasques are spread out. Dominate Monster.
Verelor 09-08-05, 06:58 PM	Has anyone considered for even a second just how Hellish it would be for a DM to plot this particular encounter? Us Dungeon Masters sometimes feel more like Dungeon Slaves.
LordHell 09-08-05, 07:32 PM	If I had to DM this particular scenario I'd probably write a program or spreadsheet to handle it all for me. :) I think the assumption that a DM would actually have to DM this however is about as silly as the question itself :D
Sapp 09-08-05, 08:26 PM	Three rounds, maybe more for transit time if the tarrasques are spread out. Dominate Monster. Yeah, I can't believe that slipped my mind. I'm still in that mode where I want to completely guarantee success. Options that even remotely rely on chance and fortune slip my mind. Dominate Monster would be the simplest method... all you have to do is hope they fail their Will saves and then pit them up against each other. It's faster, but there's still the chance that they make their will saves. I was thinking...: Summon a 22 HD Solar. (Yes I know I'm lame). Enchant a large greatsword (+5) for it. Greater magic weapon (yes I know he already has a dancing one). Shapechange into a Titan. Enchant a gargantuan warhammer (+5) for myself. Greater magic weapon. Buff myself up with bull's strength and resist energy (acid). Now both me and the solar are immune to the Tarrasque's acid. So we can voluntarily be swallowed whole. Being the eating machine it is, the Tarrasque won't mind filling up its stomach with willing "victims". We both have enough DR to practically ignore the crushing damage by the Tarrasque digestive organs. The AC of the digestive tract is only 25, we're almost guaranteed to hit every time. Critical misses are cancelled out by our critical hits. Actually, there should be more critical hits than misses, because of the increased threat range, but let's just ignore that and give the benefit of luck to the hopelessly doomed Tarrasques. The Solar would be doing slightly more than 190 damage per round (his dancing greatsword attacks on its own, while he uses the +5 large greatsword I gave him). Note that this does not even factor in his increased critical threat range or buffs he might have (or that I could give him). Unfortunately, I won't be doing as much damage as him, because weapons I wield aren't considered epic, so I can't ignore the DR of the Tarrasque. However, I can surpass it easily with a +5 gargantuan warhammer with my 47 strength (bull's strength included). That's 45 average damage per hit (ignoring x3 criticals). That's 128 average damage per round, factoring in the DR 15/Epic of the tarrasque. I factored in the miss chance we'd have on our 4th attacks (AB +20 and +22 vs AC 25). The Solar can't possibly be injured. I have a slight chance of being injured if the bludgeoning damage of the digestive tract goes over 15 (DR 15/lawful). That's ok. The solar can heal me and then cast a wish or miracle to keep the Tarrasque down, while I prepare to greater teleport us into the next Tarrasque's stomach (since we now have an idea of what it looks like). I might have to use a couple of my own wishes to keep the 3rd and 4th Tarrasques down. The average Tarrasque (HAH! "average Tarrasque!") would go down in about 3 rounds from this tactic. This is factoring in Regeneration 40. Add in the rounds it takes to cast wish or miracle, and to teleport. That's 5 rounds per Tarrasque. Twenty rounds total for 4. That's about 2 minutes (I guess I overestimated when I said 10... that's ok, I like to make conservative estimates). Certainly not as quick as Dominating them, but almost guaranteed because it relies on muscle and not the Tarrasques considerable +20 to will save. Sure, I can make the DC of dominate monster fairly high with the appropriate items, prestige classes, and feats, but it's still not a risk I'd want to take. Haha. I'll stop now, because I'm sure a lot of people are hating me now for making a mockery of a D&D iconic monster. (Of course, you can't expect that much from Int 3).
Lord Ian Stark 09-08-05, 10:51 PM	Ok, let's do the math, shall we? Storm of Vengeance has a radius of 360'. The formula for a circles area is: A = (pi)*r2 So, with a radius of 360' we have: A = (pi)*3602 After the radius is squared we have: A = (pi)*129,600 Pi is equal to 3.141592... We'll use 3.1415 Now we have A = 3.1415 * 129,600 Which means we have: A = 407,138.4 Which is the spells area. Alright you brainy geeks. Think about your formula on a 1 dimension battlefield as it is rediculous to think the goblins are standing on there shoulders to fit into the huge sphere this storm takes up. :rolleyes: Were talking about the 1D part where from the center of the storm on the ground spreads out 360 ft in all directions. That's all the matters. Who cares how high the storm goes up off the ground? Wow you guys are too smart for your own good here. Sheesh. Basically the length of this circle/storm is no longer than 720 feet at any of its borders to the exact opposite border. So for those math geeks please figure out the entire Land effected area only. (I'm 29 and have been away from geography way too long. :P ) Not how high here, remember 1D, so just land surface effected. The goblins are taking up 50,000 squares (5 X 10,000) on a battle grid. I assume this storm would effect a large area but not 50,000 grid squares. I may be wrong but we'll let the math do the talking. Now the Solar (and Solar only) could cast this Storm of Vengeance spells at least 5 times which would basically seal the fate of the goblins. So who really one this battle? The wizard or the Solar? :P You have clearly never taken a geometry course. Yes I have long ago and that's why I knew this storms length of land effected was no where near that huge when it only reached out 360 feet in all directions from the center. Who's the bigger idiot here, the one who had no clue why you guys were talking about useless information or the guy who didn't understand what the useless information had to do with the senario. So you and all the others can please pipe down on the insults as saying how high and deep this storm is acually matters to an army that stands 3-4 feet tall. All that matters is area of ground this storm takes up. :rolleyes: Man you and Sapp need to chill on the insults and just look at the facts please. Sapp is worse though, so hopefully we can stop the BS and just get to the facts No, it's fifth for a wizard. Dude? I assume we are talking 3.5 rules here as the PH 3.5 says Sor/Wiz 6 for Wall of iron. Am I missing something here too? I was wrong about the 1ft per caster level as it is 5ft per caster level. Don't know how I misread that one. :embarrass Staves use your caster level, dude. No duh. Your telling me every magical item this guy has he made it? Well the OP said he has the starting gold of his character level. SO you're right if he spent the gold/exp to make all his items. However I was under the impression he purchased them all with his starting gold. Excuse me for making an assumption on a fantasy make believe scenario. :rolleyes: Of course he won't have enough spells to surround it in one day. I never said that. If the wizard likes this little town, and the little town surrounds his tower, I don't think it at all unlikely that he might spend a week or two making a good strong wall around it. Alright that's it. I'm done with this useless topic and should have stayed away as Phrenzy said. LOL Now the guy had 2 weeks to prepare for this goblin invation? Whatever. This is rediculous as the conditions of the battle continue to change and weren't set straight enough from the get go. Obviously if a 20th level wizard had 2 weeks to prepare for this we all know the answer. Have fun guys. :D
PhaedrusXY 09-08-05, 11:13 PM	Land surface area is 2D, not 1D, and that is exactly what they were calculating. So yes, the storm is big enough to cover all the goblins at once if they aren't spread out much.
Sapp 09-08-05, 11:31 PM	Now the Solar (and Solar only) could cast this Storm of Vengeance spells at least 5 times which would basically seal the fate of the goblins. So who really one this battle? The wizard or the Solar? :P Nice way to back off. "No! The wizard didn't win! The monster he summoned won!" Man you and Sapp need to chill on the insults and just look at the facts please. Sapp is worse though, so hopefully we can stop the BS and just get to the facts Haha! That's about the only logical thing you've said on this thread! Unfortunately, just because it's logical, doesn't mean it isn't hypocritical. I don't care how subtle you thought it was, that was clearly an insult you directed at me. I would say I'm offended, but what you've said probably true. If I offended you, what I've said probably also is true. People do expect a little honesty once in a while. EDIT: To be honest, I don't recall directly insulting your intelligence. I did ridicule your ideas though (C'mon... a 9.5 mile line of goblins? I don't care if they are in a straight line or not. Just think... 9.5 miles of goblin...). Alright that's it. I'm done with this useless topic and should have stayed away as Phrenzy said. LOL Now the guy had 2 weeks to prepare for this goblin invation? Whatever. This is rediculous as the conditions of the battle continue to change and weren't set straight enough from the get go. Obviously if a 20th level wizard had 2 weeks to prepare for this we all know the answer. Have fun guys. :D Most people assumed that the wizard had at least a few days to prepare. I assumed perhaps a few hours. It doesn't take that long to cast Gate. After that, it's already all set. I don't really care about a stone wall because there's no way the goblins can do anything when they reach the town anyway (for the very, very few that DO reach town). Try setting a fire in high humidity with pouring rain. You should have stopped arguing sooo long ago... so, sooo long ago... and spared yourself in the process... "Two dimensions means the goblins have to stand on each others' shoulders!" Hahaha. I have never heard that one before, but yeah, it was funny.
Nightbane 09-08-05, 11:52 PM	And this is why I just used Apocalypse from the Sky to nuke everything within 200 miles. Less arguement.
Sapp 09-09-05, 12:00 AM	And this is why I just used Apocalypse from the Sky to nuke everything within 200 miles. Less arguement. Actually that didn't work because Ian still argued with you. All of the buildings need to stand... Yes, I know things can just be rebuilt afterwards, but apparently, some people (one person) wasn't convinced.
Bardicstorm 09-09-05, 12:01 AM	Alright you brainy geeks. Think about your formula on a 1 dimension battlefield as it is rediculous to think the goblins are standing on there shoulders to fit into the huge sphere this storm takes up. :rolleyes: Were talking about the 1D part where from the center of the storm on the ground spreads out 360 ft in all directions. That's all the matters. Who cares how high the storm goes up off the ground? Wow you guys are too smart for your own good here. Sheesh. Basically the length of this circle/storm is no longer than 720 feet at any of its borders to the exact opposite border. So for those math geeks please figure out the entire Land effected area only. (I'm 29 and have been away from geography way too long. :P ) Not how high here, remember 1D, so just land surface effected. That is exactly what the formula I described (Area = pi*r2) calculates. The 2 dimensional (height would make it 3 dimensional) area of a circle 360' in diameter. Here, if squares make it easy for you.. the area of a square is L*W. ok? Therefore, with a square 720' across (same as the circle) you have 720*720 which equals: 518,400 Square feet. Here, if you don't believe me: Here's the area formulae (http://www.math.com/tables/geometry/areas.htm) (beware of pop-ups). Yes, a 720' diameter circle really does cover almost half a million square feet. Just like a 20' diameter circle has an area of 314.5 square feet. And as for the spell level, yes, wall of iron is 6th level, but wall of stone is 5th. which is what we were using. Furthermore, as I have already found out the hard way, the goblins are indeed standing in as much of a close packed mob as possible. as per the scenario.
Nightbane 09-09-05, 12:02 AM	Actually that didn't work because Ian still argued with you. All of the buildings need to stand... Yes, I know things can just be rebuilt afterwards, but apparently, some people (one person) wasn't convinced. Well, maybe we'll get lucky and he'll be within the blast radius.
BlaineTog 09-09-05, 12:05 AM	Alright you brainy geeks. Think about your formula on a 1 dimension battlefield as it is rediculous to think the goblins are standing on there shoulders to fit into the huge sphere this storm takes up. :rolleyes: Were talking about the 1D part where from the center of the storm on the ground spreads out 360 ft in all directions. That's all the matters. Who cares how high the storm goes up off the ground? Wow you guys are too smart for your own good here. Sheesh. Basically the length of this circle/storm is no longer than 720 feet at any of its borders to the exact opposite border. So for those math geeks please figure out the entire Land effected area only. (I'm 29 and have been away from geography way too long. :P ) Not how high here, remember 1D, so just land surface effected. The goblins are taking up 50,000 squares (5 X 10,000) on a battle grid. I assume this storm would effect a large area but not 50,000 grid squares. I may be wrong but we'll let the math do the talking.PhaedrusXY got this one. Actually, no, they don't take up 50,000 squares. That would be five squares per goblin, which is completelly ridiculous. They take up 10,000 squares, or 250,000 square feet (and again, that's still a lot of space to each goblin). One Storm of Vengeance hits 407,150 square feet (or ~16,286 squares), which is more than enough to kill them all if they're "bunched" together. Now the Solar (and Solar only) could cast this Storm of Vengeance spells at least 5 times which would basically seal the fate of the goblins. So who really one this battle? The wizard or the Solar? :PThe wizard. Because he gateed the Solar. Man you and Sapp need to chill on the insults and just look at the facts please.Assuming that you have never taken a geomoetry class because you appeared to be ignorant of the pi*r^2 equation isn't an insult, it's merely an observation. You are the one trying to use "math geek" as an insult. ]Dude? I assume we are talking 3.5 rules here as the PH 3.5 says Sor/Wiz 6 for Wall of iron. Am I missing something here too?Yes you are. We were discussing Wall of stone. No duh. Your telling me every magical item this guy has he made it? Well the OP said he has the starting gold of his character level. SO you're right if he spent the gold/exp to make all his items. However I was under the impression he purchased them all with his starting gold. Excuse me for making an assumption on a fantasy make believe scenario. :rolleyes:No no, it doesn't matter who made the staff. All staves use the caster level of the person using them. That's practically their whole point. Now the guy had 2 weeks to prepare for this goblin invation? Whatever.That's not what I said. I said that if the wizard likes this town, it's not at all unlikely that he would create a rather nice wall around it just for general use. Given how trivial it would be for him to do this, he could just create the wall in his spare time over the course of seveal months, casting it a few times with his unused spell slots just before bed each night.
Lord Ian Stark 09-09-05, 02:07 AM	[EDIT] Actually, no, they don't take up 50,000 squares. That would be five squares per goblin, which is completelly ridiculous. :embarrass Your right. I meant they take up 50,000 ft or 10,000 grid squares. (C'mon... a 9.5 mile line of goblins? I don't care if they are in a straight line or not. Just think... 9.5 miles of goblin...). Ok I'll own up to my mistakes or ideas as I have been but this one was your own little fantasy my friend. The wizard. Because he gateed the Solar. I know I was just messing with you guys. ;) Yes you are. We were discussing Wall of stone. Yeah I was constantly looking at wall of iron instead. This happens when you spend 2 minutes reading and posting then going back to work. No no, it doesn't matter who made the staff. All staves use the caster level of the person using them. That's practically their whole point. See my answer above. ;) That's not what I said. I said that if the wizard likes this town, it's not at all unlikely that he would create a rather nice wall around it just for general use. Given how trivial it would be for him to do this, he could just create the wall in his spare time over the course of seveal months, casting it a few times with his unused spell slots just before bed each night. Ah I see. I was just going by what the OP stated. I too agree the wizard would make sure the town he was going to reside in was well protected. Oh and yes Sapp I "argued" (LOL) that totally leveling the town doesn't sound like an option. However I'm not the OP and if the Wizard must stop the goblins harming it then I assumed it's safe to say he didn'want any harm coming to it. You know like leveling it? ;)
Sapp 09-09-05, 03:17 AM	:embarrass Your right. I meant they take up 50,000 ft or 10,000 grid squares. Ok I'll own up to my mistakes or ideas as I have been but this one was your own little fantasy my friend. It's not my "own little fantasy" my friend. Here is what you wrote earlier: Um... 10,000 small creatures taking up a 5 foot area each means 50,000 feet. Hmm. Nice try. You can only have 1 of these going at a time as you have to concentrate on it by the way. As soon as you stop concentrating it ends. ... I think you people are failing to understand just how vast of an area 10,000 creatures take up. Flying up and down in wooded areas and the like is possible but he would'nt be able to zip up and down the entire length of an approaching army spread out. You stated yourself 50,000 feet. If the goblins were grouped together, this would be 250,000 SQ FT. Grouped together that would be 500 ft by 500 ft. That is easily covered by a storm with plenty of room to spare. Half of the area could be empty, and the goblins still would be covered. Obviously, none of us knew what you were talking about, with your "50,000 ft" so we naturally assumed you meant a line formation (better to avoid the storm). Can someone explain to me where I said the Goblins are standing in a straight line? 1 Goblin takes up a 5 foot square. Unless they are squeezing which there is no reason that they are. I'm sorry but the idea of Goblins walking in step in a perfect formation like humans is a little far fetched. They would be in massive groups but in no way lined up in any sort of ranks. So 10,000 Goblins take up 50,000 square feet. I never said in single file. You guys thought that BS up all by yourselves. Good on yah. No spell has that kind of range. I even posted the specifics of the storm spell yet you argue that it could be spread out that far? Metamagic feats can only help so much as they don't stack. Here you confuse us further, by saying that a goblin takes up a 5 ft square. I naturally assumed you meant a 5 foot by 5 foot square (as well as any other person who passed their elementary arithmetic classes), which is 25 square feet. However, you then go to state that the entire horde takes only 50,000 square feet, making absolutely no sense whatsoever. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I thought meant a 50,000 ft line lengthwise, with 5 foot width. Anyone would have. It was your own fault for not knowing elementary arithmetic. The goblins take 250,000 square feet. Unless you stretch them out for miles, a huge number of them will be caught in the storm. Even so, storm of vengeance was a contingency plan, in case you still thought that scores of large, huge, greater air elementals, pouring rain, celestial elephants, avoral sentinels wouldn't be enough to stop the oh-so-many goblins, who coincidentally only need one goblin to get through to chuck a torch at the city, thereby annihilating the entire city. In your mind: Ignoring high winds, pouring rain, and high humidity, the torch will stay lit and be burning hotly. That one torch will obviously fly through one of the windows (which coincidentally isn't boarded up), and set the entire town on fire at once, while the villagers watch in vain. I can't imagine anyone else with the same thought process. I even doubt that you are convincing yourself. Get it? Storm of Vengeance was icing on the top. It was just a joke, thrown in for laughs. The rest of us don't think a few goblins will do anything to the city. Stone wall or not. I'm might go as far as to say that the stone wall was a joke too, because I don't think anyone could possibly think a few goblins could do anything to the few Avorals posted on guard. (Blainetog explicitly stated, it's just meant to be overkill. No one sane really needed that much convincing, but I guess some people really do.) All the while, we're assuming the goblins are fearless and only have one ludicrous goal in mind: to throw their torch at a building, hoping to destroy it (which they won't). Oh and yes Sapp I "argued" (LOL) that totally leveling the town doesn't sound like an option. However I'm not the OP and if the Wizard must stop the goblins harming it then I assumed it's safe to say he didn'want any harm coming to it. You know like leveling it? ;) Will the few goblins that reach the town really level it? Or would they just be killed by Avorals, panicked by the presence of a Solar, or dealt with at the wizard's leisure. Note that this whole time that I've been setting the scene, the wizard hasn't lifted a finger. You made a few mistakes. They weren't even big ones. In fact, I thought you were just kidding the first time you said, "goblins win," but you kept arguing and making the most absurd claims - 1D terrain... how is that even a "terrain"? - 9.5 mile long formations of goblins (doesn't matter if the line is straight or not... it's 9.5 freaking miles). - 50,000 square feet of goblins? That's 2,000 goblins. Oh I see, you meant a 50,000 ft line. Oh wait, now you're denying that too... For the life of me, I cannot imagine why you didn't just admit, "huh... guess the wizard does win" instead of embarassing yourself over elementary arithmetic! It does seem like I'm putting a lot of effort into pointing out your errors, but I really do like to see people own up to their own words. (as absurd as they may be)
Lord Ian Stark 09-09-05, 04:21 AM	Here you confuse us further, by saying that a goblin takes up a 5 ft square. I naturally assumed you meant a 5 foot by 5 foot square (as well as any other person who passed their elementary arithmetic classes), which is 25 square feet. One square on a battle grid = one 5 ft square. That's what I meant. I didn't mention 50,000 "square" feet. That was my mistake. In your mind: Ignoring high winds, pouring rain, and high humidity, the torch will stay lit and be burning hotly. That one torch will obviously fly through one of the windows (which coincidentally isn't boarded up), and set the entire town on fire at once, while the villagers watch in vain. One torch? I said if the goblin"s" (plural) could get there torches into windows or doorways they may catch on fire. Oviously a torch won't catch a rock or brick on fire but the materials inside a house are flammable. Why you think I was talking about 10,000 goblins running with one total torch is beyond me. :confused: I picture that one orc running with that torch in the second LOTR is what you must have thought I was saying for some reason. Will the few goblins that reach the town really level it? OMG! LOL That leveling comment was in response to how I was "arguing" with Nightbane's nuke spell idea that would destroy the town. Not the goblins. Ok this has become a total CF. Partly because of my math skills and partly because of the crazy amount of assumptions on something that will hopefully never have to actually be played out. If it makes you happy I would say the wizard would win most if not all the times this scenario was actually played out.
Sapp 09-09-05, 04:51 AM	One square on a battle grid = one 5 ft square. That's what I meant. I didn't mention 50,000 "square" feet. That was my mistake. So 10,000 Goblins take up 50,000 square feet. I never said in single file. You guys thought that BS up all by yourselves. Good on yah. One torch? I said if the goblin"s" (plural) could get there torches into windows or doorways they may catch on fire. Oviously a torch won't catch a rock or brick on fire but the materials inside a house are flammable. Why you think I was talking about 10,000 goblins running with one total torch is beyond me. :confused: I picture that one orc running with that torch in the second LOTR is what you must have thought I was saying for some reason. Please. You've attempted to twist my words and meaning so often before. I repeatedly gave you the benefit of the doubt. You could be so kind to do the same. What I'm implying is that all 10,000 goblins would have torches... maybe one might reach the town (by some catastrophic fluke). That goblin would throw his one torch at a window (which would be boarded), before he's killed by an Avoral who magic missiles him. The Avoral would later kick himself for not noticing the goblin's approach earlier. Torches are bright. An Avoral's sight reaches 10 miles. It could tell what the goblin's eye color is at 200 paces. I doubt it could miss something like a torch. OMG! LOL That leveling comment was in response to how I was "arguing" with Nightbane's nuke spell idea that would destroy the town. Not the goblins. Ok this has become a total CF. Partly because of my math skills and partly because of the crazy amount of assumptions on something that will hopefully never have to actually be played out. If it makes you happy I would say the wizard would win most if not all the times this scenario was actually played out. To be honest, this isn't even about who is "right" anymore. I'm sure everyone already knew what the outcome would be at page 4 or so of this thread as soon as the solar came into the picture. I'm sure you weren't really arguing for the goblins. You were arguing in defense of your common sense, or sense of logic. As your own reasoning became more absurd and more people disagreed with you, you became more desperate and tried to fix it the way a mad carpenter would try to fix his hopelessly deteriorating house, only to make things worse, and putting himself at risk. That is honestly how I saw it. This is about you being stubborn, and me being stubborn in response. Although I try to be as courteous as possible in real life, I really do struggle when dealing with idiocy, stubbornness, or hypocrisy (not to mention all at once). I don't like people "getting away with" doing or saying stupid things and not owning up to their own actions or words. It's very self-righteous, I know, but I'm sure it's not too hypocritical, because I'm owning up to it right now. I don't think it's too bad to own up to something I do. It just means I said or did something stupid once. It doesn't mean I, as an individual am stupid. At least that's how I think. Yes, I admit to being stubborn, because I was essentially arguing for NOTHING. Obviously, you didn't even believe in your own words, and were just talking, afraid to stop, because that would signify a surrender, a defeat of your own logic and reasoning skills. That is how I see it. Don't try to convince me otherwise, because we are both very stubborn individuals and I don't want to drag this conversation further. I doubt that there's doubt as to what the outcome would be between the wizard and the goblins, and nothing you say can put any doubt in me about that.
LordHell 09-09-05, 07:13 AM	Lord Ian Stark. For your information - here are some realistic formations from the real world. The Roman Republic Legions under Scipio Africanus comprimised of three main battlelines of 4,800 men, with 250ft spacing between each battleline. One legion had a total width of 738 feet and a total depth of 534 feet. During the Roman Imperial times, a 5,130 man Imperial Legion would have a width of roughly 775ft and a depth of 641ft, with 250 spacing between each battle line. Take note that while the Roman Legionare would have about a 3ft space to fight in, there were significant gaps between each battleline and each Maniple (and later Cohort). These were much more spread out formations that anything in a horde or cluster would use.
Lord Ian Stark 09-09-05, 09:32 AM	One square on a battle grid = one 5 ft square. That's what I meant. I didn't mention 50,000 "square" feet. That was my mistake. Once again miscommunication among words. I was saying it was my mistake by not putting "squares" into a different use of 50,000 feet that caused confusion of what I was saying earlier. I didn't mean for that statement to say that I never said square. I was answering from post #195 where you asked me about 50,000 feet instead of what I meant was 50,000 "square" feet. Bah. This is endless. So let me kill Lambchop now as she won't stop singing "This is the song that never ends..." :banghead: I doubt that there's doubt as to what the outcome would be between the wizard and the goblins, and nothing you say can put any doubt in me about that. Oh I already agreed with yah on my last post. See the end of it. ;) @LordHell Thanks for showing some RL formations used. I made the mistake of not saying that I wasn't talking about any battle formation long ago when I started in with the goblins taking up 10,000 grids on the battle grid. According to D&D one character takes up a 5 foot square on the battle grid. So I was just mentioning how much room they themselves could take up without ever adding in a type of formation. Now they can squeeze and stuff for movement or marching, however I don't see a goblin warband being that disciplined. They may be in huge clumps of a mob like group, but I don't see them marching in dress right dress and in step. The terrain can also have a heavy effect on the horde. Wooded, slopes, water, etc... I don't think the Blue Book was invented in D&D anyhow. ;) (RL Military humor there)
Bardicstorm 09-09-05, 11:18 AM	--much snippage-- the oh-so-many goblins, who coincidentally only need one goblin to get through to chuck a torch at the city, thereby annihilating the entire city. Goblin Torch of the Saboteur: This torch is made from a black wood and is inscribed with goblin runes of destruction, fire, and death. The torch is made to resemble Gruumsh's Torch of Annihilation, though few have ever seen that dread item. When wielded by a goblin which utters the command word, the torch's flame turns a bright green. Thereafter the goblin bearing the torch has merely to throw or drop the torch in order to release it's effect. If the torch is dropped or thrown while activated, when it impacts an object or creature it immediately detonates a meteor storm in a pattern surrounding the place of impact. Thus, the object of impact takes damage from four 6d6 fireballs while surrounding objects and creatures will be affected by one or two fireball effects out to a radius of 80 feet. The torch (and usually the goblin) are consumed in the blast. Strong evocation; CL 17th; Craft Wonderous Item, meteor storm; Price 7,650 gp. Gruumsh's Torch of the Annihilation: This artifact is thought to be personally carried by Gruumsh, however, he may loan it to a particularly devout desciple for a short period of time. The effects of this item are unknown, but it is presumed to be devastating.
BlaineTog 09-09-05, 02:57 PM	Goblin Torch of the Saboteur: This torch is made from a black wood and is inscribed with goblin runes of destruction, fire, and death. The torch is made to resemble Gruumsh's Torch of Annihilation, though few have ever seen that dread item. When wielded by a goblin which utters the command word, the torch's flame turns a bright green. Thereafter the goblin bearing the torch has merely to throw or drop the torch in order to release it's effect. If the torch is dropped or thrown while activated, when it impacts an object or creature it immediately detonates a meteor storm in a pattern surrounding the place of impact. Thus, the object of impact takes damage from four 6d6 fireballs while surrounding objects and creatures will be affected by one or two fireball effects out to a radius of 80 feet. The torch (and usually the goblin) are consumed in the blast. Strong evocation; CL 17th; Craft Wonderous Item, meteor storm; Price 7,650 gp.The goblin's can't possibly hope to aquire 10,000 of these. Let's assume that they each have the following equipment: 1 suit of leather armor, 1 morningstar, 5 javelins, 1 light steel shield, and 2 gp in change. If they can all sell their stuff for half the value, the horde would have approximatelly 180,000 go, which translates to 23 Goblin Torchs of the Saboteur and 4,050 gp extra. That means they can equip exactly 0.23% of their forces with these torches. One of those 23 goblins has to get closer than 130 feet from the town in order to have any effect. This strategy means that the entier horde necessarily sacrifices themselves so that 23 of them have a slight chance of destroying (more likely, just damaging parts of) a small village. Of course, if you have Avorals patrolling the area, I think that their chances approach zero.
Bardicstorm 09-09-05, 03:33 PM	The goblin's can't possibly hope to aquire 10,000 of these. Let's assume that they each have the following equipment: 1 suit of leather armor, 1 morningstar, 5 javelins, 1 light steel shield, and 2 gp in change. If they can all sell their stuff for half the value, the horde would have approximatelly 180,000 go, which translates to 23 Goblin Torchs of the Saboteur and 4,050 gp extra. That means they can equip exactly 0.23% of their forces with these torches. One of those 23 goblins has to get closer than 130 feet from the town in order to have any effect. This strategy means that the entier horde necessarily sacrifices themselves so that 23 of them have a slight chance of destroying (more likely, just damaging parts of) a small village. Of course, if you have Avorals patrolling the area, I think that their chances approach zero. All true of course, I just felt compelled to create it. Of course if you view the 23 goblins as the "standard bearers" each time one falls another picks up the thing and continues until they are close enough to activate and toss it. But I'm still not saying they'd get anywhere near that point.
BlaineTog 09-09-05, 03:39 PM	All true of course, I just felt compelled to create it.I know the feeling.
Bane 09-09-05, 04:47 PM	It's not impossible for them to get the torch that close. First, they line up in the aforementioned 10 mile long line, pointing toward the town. The goblin in the back passes forward the Torch. That goblin, along with all of the others until the first one in line, have readied actions to pass the torch along. When it reaches the front goblin at the end of the round, it is traveling at 600 mph. That should be more than enough momentum to get it to the town with a minimal upwards force from the front goblin. 20% more goblins would break the sound barrier with the torch.
Bardicstorm 09-09-05, 05:12 PM	It's not impossible for them to get the torch that close. First, they line up in the aforementioned 10 mile long line, pointing toward the town. The goblin in the back passes forward the Torch. That goblin, along with all of the others until the first one in line, have readied actions to pass the torch along. When it reaches the front goblin at the end of the round, it is traveling at 600 mph. That should be more than enough momentum to get it to the town with a minimal upwards force from the front goblin. 20% more goblins would break the sound barrier with the torch. Hmm.. three problems aside from the obvious rule silliness.. (not what you posted, simply that the rules technically allow such) 1) The torch will be moving too fast for the last goblin to activate it, and if the first activates it, then the first hand-off may be misconstrued as a throw. (oops... Goblin paté) 2) The torch might go out. 3) You are assuming that the line of 10,000 goblins all make the correct initiative checks... 1 or 2 goblins out of synch in the middle could be devastating.
Sapp 09-09-05, 06:52 PM	Ah yes... the infamous "Goblin Rail Gun" powered by 10,000 goblins in a queue instead of the standard, electromagnetism. Capable of firing "bolts" (or any matter really) at speeds of over 2,500 meters per second, the bolts far surpass supersonic speeds. The rail may be about 9.5 miles long (well over 5 times than some of our longest particle accelerators), but the result is worth it. Not even a solar could survive such a shot from such a devastating weapon.
Sapp 09-09-05, 06:53 PM	Ah yes... the infamous "Goblin Rail Gun" powered by 10,000 goblins in a queue instead of the standard, electromagnetism. Capable of firing "bolts" (or any matter really) at speeds of over 2,500 meters per second, the bolts far surpass borderline supersonic speeds. The rail may be about 9.5 miles long (well over 5 times than some of our longest particle accelerators), but the result is worth it. Not even a solar could survive such a shot from such a devastating weapon.
Earthcrosser599 09-10-05, 04:34 AM	Holy crap this thread grew... The only post I remember is I think Sapp talking about how much this changed from the beginning...how true. In any event, adding win conditions was the only thing I could think of even if the conditions aren't realistic. Half the variables in this aren't realistic. I don't remember if I said exactly how long the wizard had to prepare for this...I think it was something like a few minutes but I don't want to go back through all this to find out. I'd start a thread for each class and see if they can do this at 20th level but with some of the outrageous things people are clinging to in the goblin's defense make me hesitant. Which ruins my attempted impartiality but hey. MY personal theory behind it was having the wizard buy a dozen scrolls of Time stop and a few DBFs and just lay them one after the other, but alot of people that've posted had alot of creative ideas. The specter one was probably the most entertaining to me... PS-I've been to various Cons and played in countless Living Greyhawk sessions...I've yet to run into a GM who allows 20/20/20-KO's...I'm not sure if it's a LG standard or just preference...who all allows that and what have you seen it kill?
BlaineTog 09-10-05, 12:40 PM	That torch moves just as fast at the end of the line as it did at the front. Why? Because claiming anything else would be selectivelly choosing which time frame the torch is in and which time frames the goblins are in. The torch isn't moving over 9.5 miles in ~6 seconds. It's moving over 9.5 miles in 60,000 seconds of goblin time that happens to be compressed into six seconds of real time. It's speed is 0.57 mph.
Sapp 09-10-05, 12:53 PM	The spectre one is delicate though, because there's a chain of command, you don't directly control all of them. Essentially, each of your commands would need to be structured as a recursive algorithm. Suppose I wanted the spectres to all go to Hell, I can't make one of them go before the other without putting consideration first. If a leader goes before his spawn, his spawn become rogue, because the leader is not present anymore. As long as a spawn's leader is around, the spawn are enslaved and have no choice but to follow. The command would have to be structured as follows: "My command begins here, including this sentence, and will not end until I say the words 'end command'. I want you repeat this command, word for word, to every one of your spawn. After your spawn have executed this command that you relayed to them, you may continue with the rest of this command. If you don't have any spawn, then continue with the rest of this command anyway. Walk through the Gate to Hell and stay there until the Gate closes. End command." That way, a spectre would only go to Hell after all of his spawn have. The chain of command is not broken. There won't be rogue spectres. Ah. Who says computer science can't be applied to D&D? The workings of a recursive algorithm on thousands of spectres as they relay the commands to each other... it's like poetry to me.
Nuntius128 09-10-05, 12:58 PM	Perhaps the Wizard could use a spell and turn all of the 10k Goblins into 1 Goblin with 10k class levels, to use as a cohort. :D
Bardicstorm 09-10-05, 02:40 PM	The command would have to be structured as follows: "My command begins here, including this sentence, and will not end until I say the words 'end command'. I want you repeat this command, word for word, to every one of your spawn. After your spawn have executed this command that you relayed to them, you may continue with the rest of this command. If you don't have any spawn, then continue with the rest of this command anyway. Walk through the Gate to Hell and stay there until the Gate closes. End command." That way, a spectre would only go to Hell after all of his spawn have. The chain of command is not broken. There won't be rogue spectres. Don't forget to put some time limitations in there.. otherwise, said evil spectre could still cause havoc while obeying the commands implicitly. You don't specify that they must immediately walk through the gate to hell, or that they must immediately relay the command to their spwn upon creation, etc. etc. You're playing with matches again. I mean, they are intelligent, and they are evil. Even if they are lawful.
Saurstalk 09-10-05, 03:08 PM	There are a lot of variables to consider. One that has been mentioned is the amount of time the wizard has to prepare. Is he refreshed, read up on all his tomes, and what spells (and magic items) are at his disposal. Another - how well prepared are the goblins? Are these CR1/2 clouts or something more? Assuming that they are the simple goblins drawn from the Monster Manual, there's still two other things to consider. 1. Order of initiative and 2. Natural 20s hit. Assuming that the goblins go first (or perhaps that really doesn't matter), then if you allow for natural 20s to automatically hit, then the goblins stand a fair chance simply because of the overhwleming odds of rolling sufficient natural 20s (critical hits and perhaps even instant kills). Essentially, the first goblin throws his spear. He rolls a 20. He rolls a second 20. He rolls a third 20. Voila! End of scenario ... Perhaps.
Sapp 09-10-05, 03:09 PM	Well, you are overseeing the entire ordeal. So I'd assume that they wouldn't really pull anything stupid, but I guess it would be more elegant to add a time limitation. "As fast as you possibly can from one spawn to the next. Relay this command as quickly as I have given it to you. Blah blah blah..." Sure, my command isn't perfect, because I'm more used to giving these commands to computers, which are lawful neutral, instead of lawful evil, but I'm nowhere near even int 18+, so I don't know what a perfectly structured command would be.
Bardicstorm 09-10-05, 03:32 PM	Well, you are overseeing the entire ordeal. So I'd assume that they wouldn't really pull anything stupid, but I guess it would be more elegant to add a time limitation. "As fast as you possibly can from one spawn to the next. Relay this command as quickly as I have given it to you. Blah blah blah..." Sure, my command isn't perfect, because I'm more used to giving these commands to computers, which are lawful neutral, instead of lawful evil, but I'm nowhere near even int 18+, so I don't know what a perfectly structured command would be. How about in another level our wizard friend just begin work on an epic version of Create Greater Undead which allows him to have control over all spawn created by undead he controls. Fixes everything nicely, then actually gives him a much more tractable exponentially scaling undead army.
Sapp 09-10-05, 03:41 PM	The thing is, the method is viable at level 15. The difference between level 15 and Epic is enormous. Yes, I'm that impatient. Sure it's dangerous, putting your power and command in the hands of a single loyal undead servant (who will become the target of every rival caster in the world), but this is world domination we're talking about. Who could resist? Sure it would be a lot of work for the wizard. He'd have to write down his plan, his wording, the politics involved between the spectres, etc, but the planning is worth it. He just needs to find a humanoid army and let loose a single spectre. The growing number would quickly overwhelm the army before they even knew what was happening. Then you'd have thousands of spectres under your command. One of which is completely loyal to you and can govern the rest while you're not there (and why wouldn't he be? Your army is basically his army, and he wouldn't last a second without you, considering that he's already the target of every rival caster in the land!). He'd be fairly intelligent/powerful as well, after defeating an army or two, and advancing in his monster class level/HD. It makes me wonder why this hasn't been attempted before. Spectres, wraiths, these kind of undead grow exponentially fast. They should fast overwhelm the living population. It makes me think that existing spectre lords aren't ambitious enough and are just content own small bits of land. Either that or they're cowardly and don't want to draw too much attention.
Bardicstorm 09-10-05, 03:56 PM	The thing is, the method is viable at level 15. The difference between level 15 and Epic is enormous. Yes, I'm that impatient. Sure it's dangerous, putting your power and command in the hands of a single loyal undead servant (who will become the target of every rival caster in the world), but this is world domination we're talking about. Who could resist? Sure it would be a lot of work for the wizard. He'd have to write down his plan, his wording, the politics involved between the spectres, etc, but the planning is worth it. He just needs to find a humanoid army and let loose a single spectre. The growing number would quickly overwhelm the army before they even knew what was happening. Then you'd have thousands of spectres under your command. One of which is completely loyal to you and can govern the rest while you're not there (and why wouldn't he be? Your army is basically his army, and he wouldn't last a second without you, considering that he's already the target of every rival caster in the land!). He'd be fairly intelligent/powerful as well, after defeating an army or two, and advancing in his monster class level/HD. It makes me wonder why this hasn't been attempted before. Spectres, wraiths, these kind of undead grow exponentially fast. They should fast overwhelm the living population. It makes me think that existing spectre lords aren't ambitious enough and are just content own small bits of land. Either that or they're cowardly and don't want to draw too much attention. Actually, the whole scenario would make for a good, impending doom style campaign... Try to stop the undead before they turn the entire world into their spawn. The plague of undeath would be slowed by oceans and whatnot. (I mean, if every sailor who sets foot on a land is turned into a spawn, it makes it less likely for the plague to travel back overseas. You know, if you don't mind Sapp, I may use this as an explanation for a big ancient plague that defiled an entire continent on my world. It fits... rather well actually.
Sapp 09-10-05, 04:06 PM	Actually, the whole scenario would make for a good, impending doom style campaign... Try to stop the undead before they turn the entire world into their spawn. The plague of undeath would be slowed by oceans and whatnot. (I mean, if every sailor who sets foot on a land is turned into a spawn, it makes it less likely for the plague to travel back overseas. You know, if you don't mind Sapp, I may use this as an explanation for a big ancient plague that defiled an entire continent on my world. It fits... rather well actually. Why would I mind? I see this entire thread as an excuse for people to let loose on some ideas, and for people to draw ideas from it. I don't have the idea patented, and as far as I can remember, a lot of zombie apocalypse movies have the same theme. Unstoppable plagues of undeath. A genius necromancer perfects an algorithm for spectre control and creates a spectre which he uses to try to rule the world! Sounds good to me... Being such a powerful necromancer, we could spice up his army, with devourers (or death knights, or whatever undeads might fit the role of a retainer) which are sent out to eliminate rogue spectres if any happen to become.
spectralphoenix 09-10-05, 04:20 PM	The wizard can shapechange into an Iron Golem. Four level 9 spells gives him a total of 800 minutes as an iron golem. None of the goblins can hope to beat his DR, he is immune to critical hits, and with 2 attacks a round, he can destroy 10,000 goblins in around 550 minutes (taking into acount automatic misses.) Of course, he can use a variety of silenced spells and breath weapons to speed up this process, and various wall spells to herd the goblins toward him. Lastly, as a large creature, all of the goblin's grab checks against him automatically fail, so they can't initiate a grapple either. He is also immune to practically any form of magic, so he doesn't have to worry about any meteor swarm torches traveling at mach 1.
jokamachi 09-10-05, 04:44 PM	Dude, the Wizard died of boredom a few days ago and all the goblins starved to death just standing around waiting for their marching orders. Give it a rest.
BlaineTog 09-10-05, 09:18 PM	It makes me wonder why this hasn't been attempted before.It's probably because the Monster Manual has something in it about these types of undead staying near the place they died that it hasn't happened naturally. Whether an outside force, such as a level 15 wizard, has attempted it or not is up to the DM...
edgy_rhinx 09-11-05, 06:29 PM	By default: 1. Goblins win initiative, because at least several thousands of them will roll higher, than wizard. 2. Goblins do not stand on a plain ground. They use land/caverns to their advantage. The goblins will use grenade weapon (with splash damage), boulder traps, etc. It can be blocked only by DR and even in this case wizard can be unlucky and miss a smashing log trap or similar one and die. Or goblins can spread out. Most likely wizard won't be able to catch all of them and kill in his lifetime, thus technically next goblin generation (sons and daughters of original 10000 goblins) will win.
Sapp 09-11-05, 06:55 PM	This thread was quite education. It has even taught me why I should RTFT before posting.
Pensuke 09-14-05, 01:47 PM	There is only one way to decide this: GOOGLE FIGHT! 20th-level wizard vs. 10,000 goblins http://http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=20th-level+wizard&word2=10%2C000+goblins 20th-level wizard vs. you http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=20th-level+wizard&word2=j00+n00b 10,000 goblins vs. you http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=10%2C000+goblins&word2=j00+n00b