Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paradoxic4 03-20-05, 02:39 PM	Recently my friend and I had a discussion about how the fighter is supposedly underpowered. I disagreed, obviously bringing up the age-old argument about a fighter's numerous bonus feats. He of course retorted with the, also age-old, argument about how the feats were designed to be less powerful than class skills. After long debates on the subject I issued this statement to him "All i'm saying is that I think a fully developed fighter could beat a fully developed Monk." Yes, I know, most people would laugh at this statement because of the beleif that the monk is arguably the most powerful class in the players handbook (note that all references are made to v3.5). Anyhow, it was then that my challange was issued to him. "Fine, why don't you make a lv.20 Monk, i'll make a lv.20 Fighter, and we'll have a battle, and see who wins." Again, a laughable statement to most, but i think that with enough cunning and expertice I could finally prove that the fighter is just as good as any other class, so long as you have the proper knowledge and ability to use one. Here are the basic rules for our fight. 1. Only one character may be used: I.e. no outrageous leadership feat scores. 1-on-1 only! 2. The character may be equipped with anything found in the players handbook. 3. No inter-dimensional teleporting, that's just stupid. 4. All core rules, including attacks of opportunity will be abided by. Him and I are well underway with our character creation, I've taken a lot of time to research every feat and it's uses, along with intense research about combat logistics and strategy. I still beleive that I have a good chance. We've commisioned another of our friends to act as a standing DM, just to make sure all rules are used correctly and there's no dispute about legality of actions. Also, it's his job to design several battle arenas to test the full abilities of each character, while not inhibiting our ability to fight to the fullest of strength. Feel free to post any comments, so long as you actually have something to say, that is. I understand that everyone here must have a strong opinon on the matter, but before you post think about how intelligent you'll look posting "Mnks Ruule!!" or "fhgters suk!!" Anyhow, I'll keep you posted (no pun intended) on the preceedings and our results, we'll fight three times, best of three wins, and then we'll have moe battles after making character tweaks, also we'll try several battlegrounds. This should be interesting, I've taken it upon myself to prove that the fighter is just as good as anyone else. Thanks for reading, hope I can enlighten you all, as you can me.
Aricandor 03-20-05, 02:55 PM	Well, I have to say, you could've chosen a worse opponent. Or a worse class to prove good. It'll probably come down to initiative counts, and whether or not you use a two-handed weapon. A 3.5 monk is not weak, but he is hardly the "best" class in the book (the druid or cleric has that throne claimed)... It will be interesting I have to say. The general consensus is that fighters are weak, as you are probably well aware of. At least you don't have to contend with flying in this case. To think about is that even if you have boots of speed he'll be able to outrun you (if he feels in poor shape he can just run away from you and heal up) and if he is really in to it you might not even score a hit on him. His speed will be 90 (at the very least), and you'll stand no chance if you don't have light armor (you can charge only 40 ft. with heavy armor and he'll be able to keep a distance of 45' and spring attack) or boots of speed. I know that you are probably already fully aware of this, but it is to minimize the risk that you fall on such a simple trick. And keep an eye on the CO boards so that your pal doesn't take a trip there. They can make some rather scary stuff. ;)
Paradoxic4 03-20-05, 03:19 PM	Yes, I am well aware of a speed issue, but that's easily remedies by the good ue of a longbow, even though Monks can deflect arrows and such, but knowing my friend he's got a pretty advanced strategy already. Also, in case I neglected to mention, we're limiting ourselves to the v3.5 Rulebook, only.
Escef 03-20-05, 03:28 PM	Quick-draw is you friend. Fire a volley of arrows then whip out a reach weapon. When he gets inside of reach bust out a great sword. Take feats to counteract the monk's abilities. Also, I recommend renegotiation about those terms, if you are only using PHB equipment you will have great difficulty with the monk's damage reduction.
Bane 03-20-05, 03:49 PM	Sorry to say, but I think you're dead. If I were him, I would use sunder to break every item you have, other than your armor. Also, if you do end up allowing DMG items also, watch out for him to show up with hundreds of poisoned shurikens. No matter how good your Fortitude save is, he will be able to get a couple through.
Aricandor 03-20-05, 03:55 PM	Bane raises a good point. 2d10 + Str will break items, especially if you go for many of them. Heck, he might even resort to something as simple as grappling, and going for a high Strength score.
VirgilCaine 03-20-05, 07:20 PM	Quick-draw is you friend. Fire a volley of arrows then whip out a reach weapon. When he gets inside of reach bust out a great sword. Take feats to counteract the monk's abilities. Also, I recommend renegotiation about those terms, if you are only using PHB equipment you will have great difficulty with the monk's damage reduction. Not quickdraw, Gloves of Storing.
saethone 03-20-05, 09:06 PM	i would strongly suggest using items found in the DMG as well, and using the starting cash listed for 20th level characters. without magic equipment you are screwed, and the magic equipment is part of the balancing of monks
Razoreface 03-20-05, 09:44 PM	You'll need DMG access, which I assume is what you meant by PHB only, because there's no magic items in the PHB. :) Don't use weapons. Build a fighter like you were building a monk. Everything nonmagical that he can do, you can do too. Shurikens? You have enough feats to drop one on proficiency in it. Every bonus and virtual feat he gets, you can take if you want it. Tweak him for grappling and TWF. It's the only place your higher BAB will be able to level the fight. Greater Spec will help close the damage from the difference in dice.
green_yawgmoth 03-20-05, 10:54 PM	I get to be the first to suggest spiked chain fighter? Yay! :D Go for the chain; can't really do a lot when he's on the ground and getting pounded on. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Korhal_IV 03-21-05, 01:21 AM	I get to be the first to suggest spiked chain fighter? Yay! :D Go for the chain; can't really do a lot when he's on the ground and getting pounded on. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif I second this one. Spiked Chain is just cheap and cheesy - plus, when he's spending his move-equivalent actions on standing up, he's not spending them on running the heck away. Cleric, Druid, Wizard - all these classes are leagues more powerful than either Monk or Fighter.
Kalanth 03-21-05, 01:39 AM	Certainly nothing wrong with adding in an Improved Trip feet somewhere in the build. Even go so far as to carry a tripping weapon, such as the Kama or a chain, along with the Quick Draw Feet. Keep him off his feet and you should be able to get a few extra hits in, and the AoO when he stands up is always useful as a "bonus" attack. Two Weapon fighting can be useful at times as well, especially when it comes to the Kama for the above purpose. If that is something you choose, then you may also toss in the Two-Weapon Defense to increase AC just by that much more.
Deflare 03-21-05, 01:51 AM	Hmm... All the advice I can give is to munchkinize your fighter. High physical stats, low mental stats, a Dwarf or Half-Orc, and extreme specialization in one or two weapons (ranged and melee, preferably). If you put all your skills into Bluff, you may be able to use feint to score a hit. If you put all of your points into Use Magic Device, then you get rods and such (you definitely need the magical items in the DMG to pull this duel off well), which can be a lot of fun to play with. Also be aware of the monk's special abilites. For example, don't bother with poisoning weapons. And to deal with the increased speed, try to get lots of attacks of opportunity; you may be able to get past their Tumble skill. Also try to improve your AC and initiative checks, for obvious reasons. If you want to be exceedingly cheap, get a weapon with a high critical range, get Improved Critical for it, then get a Vorpal version of said item. Insta-death on critical, with a maximum critical range of 15-20 for something like a rapier or falchion. And yes, you need magical weapons; standard weapons don't deal enough damage to bother 20th level characters, so you have extremely long battles (1d12 of damage is nothing to someone with 120 HP). While you're sorting that out, I'll be making popcorn. This is gonna be good...
Quartermain 03-21-05, 01:55 AM	Mithril Breastplate and boots of speed? That's a charge for 80 feet and discounts the spring attack monk. High strength is very important. If you have a higher strength, higher BaB and the feats like improved grapple plus a good speed, what can the monk do? Quickdraw using reach weapons and long ranged and you have him beat. Toss in Weapon Specialization and Great Weapon Specialization as well as Improved Critical for the extra damage. A high attack bonus is very important - at level 20 ACs can go through the roof. From where I stand, the fighter can win hands down.
Nytmare 03-21-05, 02:19 AM	At least you don't have to contend with flying in this case. Have we heard a final ruling as to the DMG? Shouldn't a goodly chunk of his money be spent on magical duplications of stuff like this if it is?
Aricandor 03-21-05, 04:19 AM	Probably. But a flying monk will probably not happen. Of course, he might just buy the winged boots and use shurikens...
Nytmare 03-21-05, 10:50 AM	Probably. But a flying monk will probably not happen. All the more reason for the fighter to be able to fly.