Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BaronVertigo 06-20-04, 04:18 PM	Now, we all know about Vow of Poverty. Lots of stuff, can't own this, can't own that, etc, get lots of cool (some would say unbalanced) feats and abilities. Well, after a game the other day (I have a Healer with VoP as an NPC), I decided to sit and think of a way that someone with VoP might use a weapon other than her hands. Then I looked to my right...... Expanded Psionics Handbook The Soulknife. Their weapons aren't really physical things you buy or own, unless you're going to get penalized for owning your own physical energy. Does anyone find any flaws with that? I mean, other than it being a really cheap idea?
Navonod Semaj 06-20-04, 04:32 PM	A VoP soulknife would oppose niether the mechanics nor the spirit of the feat. Granted, roleplaying an exalted psionic can be difficult (why worship the light when you can get your power from within?), but should work great. I say go for it!
UndeadPenguin 06-20-04, 04:44 PM	Its not that cheap considering you can carry a weapon but it can only be simple and not magical or masterwork.
Marcus Majarra 06-20-04, 05:09 PM	It's only cheap if you forget the fact that the classes who benefit the most from the Vow of Poverty are those who need as little equipment as possible. Under your perspective, the VoP would be cheap for any of the following classes: Monk, druid, sorcerer, barbarian, psion, wilder, soulknife, and even psychic warrior.
zimri 06-20-04, 11:48 PM	Hmm probably can't do anything to "enhance" your basic soulknife. Darrin Drader (the person that wrote VoP) said that using a kensai's ability to improve a monks unarmed strikes broke the vow, I can't see how using a soul knife that was enhanced beyond the first one you got access to would be any different.
Slagger the Chuul 06-21-04, 06:29 AM	You'd better check with your DM before trying it, since all the weapons a soulknife's mind blade emulates are martial weapons, and the blade itself is like a magical weapon. Personally, I think it's okay, since you aren't spending money or resources that you could give to the poor. I don't get how the kensai is breaking the spirit of the Vow of Poverty by enhancing a monk's unarmed strikes when the process uses XP rather than gold pieces (at least in the Complete Warrior version).
zimri 06-21-04, 03:09 PM	Not disagreeing with you slagger. I had hoped to combine the two. Mr. Drader (he who wrote the vow) said that they were not combinable because it made the monks fists inherintly magical. My DM approved it anyway though.
Massawyrm 06-22-04, 03:01 AM	I'd love to see his argument for that, as many of the exalted feats that a VoP monk can take, not to mention the feat itself...can make the monks fists inherantly magical... Of course, this is coming from the guy who wrote the most hotly contested and argued feat in 3.5...a feat so head scratchingly written that an entire sticky thread had to be devoted to it's discussion...not to mention nearly half of the posts on the board devoted to the book...
zimri 06-22-04, 09:42 AM	ask and ye shall recieve. He posts as whisperfoot http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=87312
Kyuketsukiouji 06-22-04, 04:52 PM	It always seemed to me a Paladin with Divine Shield and Divine Might would be perfect for VoP. Even a simple staff gets to be pretty dangerous as the Charisma goes up...
Slagger the Chuul 06-23-04, 02:35 AM	Originally posted by Massawyrm I'd love to see his argument for that, as many of the exalted feats that a VoP monk can take, not to mention the feat itself...can make the monks fists inherantly magical... And because the monk's fists naturally become magical just by advancing in monk levels. :)
Pagan priest 06-23-04, 04:26 PM	I went over there and read his "arguement", such as it was. Rather spurious, and a misguided attempt at claiming authority. Kind of " I wrote it, so I know how it is supposed to interact with every other rule that will ever be written" sort of thing. After reading that, I decided that if it ever comes up in my game, asthetic monks can enhance their fists via kensai levels, since there is no real reason not to.
Marcus Majarra 06-23-04, 06:16 PM	While I find his argument on the other forum to be weak, there is some merit to preventing Kensai Monks from taking the Vow of Poverty in the sense that were a Kensai to imbue a manufactured weapon, it would need to be of masterwork quality, a quality that characters with the Vow cannot possess within their weaponry. Given that the monk is the only class for which it is beneficial to fight unarmed, and that the enhancements from the Vow of Poverty and those of the Kensai signature weapon would stack (exalted bonus and enhancement bonuses stack), it's normal that the designer be inclined to consider the Kensai's signature weapon a violation of the Vow of Poverty. It's not about whether the sacrifice is material or not, but about the signature weapon being masterwork, at the basics. Naturally, you can't expect for an unarmed strike to be masterwork, which is why this dilemma arises. Although his argument is weak, I'm siding with the designer on this one. The Vow of Poverty alone turns all your weapons into virtual Kensai signature weapons. Why bother with more of the same? On a side-note, did anyone notice an error concerning the inscrutable master Shen (sample Monk/Kensai)? His unarmed strikes are listed as dealing 2d6+7 damage. The base damage is the same as for a level-15 monk, whereas it should be that of an 8th-level one.
the Horc 06-23-04, 07:13 PM	I personally feel that a VoP should be able to use any weapon that costs under a certain amount (like 5 GP). That way, you can use martial and exotic weapons, provided they don't cost too much.
Pagan priest 06-24-04, 02:37 AM	Marcus Majarra, I thinkyour last paragraph shows why it should be allowed. The monk is giving up all progression as a monk (including increases to unarmed damage) to advance as a kensai. While non-monk VoP'ed kensai cannot benefit from the signature weapon, that only means that kensai + VoP is a sub-optimal choice for any character other than a monk. Think of it this way, a monk/kensai is learning a particular way to focus his ki, a way that allows strange and unique manifestations of that ki in his unarmed attacks. Such an explanation is easily within the realm of acceptability for a VoP monk. It allows for all sorts of nifty wuxia action, fighting ghosts, flaming fists of death, even flight (if you are also using Oriental Adventures. The fact that anyone else would need a masterwork weapon is totally irrelavent. At the right levels, a monk gains the ability to strike as a magic weapon, and a lawful weapon and as an adamantine weapon. Each of these would be have to start out as masterwork for any other character. Let's be consistant, okay?
Pagan priest 06-24-04, 02:50 AM	Originally posted by the Horc I personally feel that a VoP should be able to use any weapon that costs under a certain amount (like 5 GP). That way, you can use martial and exotic weapons, provided they don't cost too much. Most of the "exotic" weapons of the monk are simple peasant weapon in the Orient. I could see arguements for taking it on a case by case basis. On the other hand, it is creeping into a dependance on material goods, somethingh that a VoP character should always try to avoid. Sadly, I had just come up with a neat idea for a monk: Umbella (if you have seen the movie Iron Monkey, there are some great fight scenes using an umbrella. Unfortunately, that would be an exotic weapon.
Asperdian 06-24-04, 07:21 AM	IMC I'd just think over this problem logically: By swearing a Vow of Poverty, you mainly swear to stay poor, and not being dependant from any material things. But by enchancing his fist with the Kensai Special Ability no one ever uses any goods or gold - therefore he will not break his vow, even if he gets more powerful than expected.Therefore, as I can find no other Reason for disallowing it than mere balance issues, I would allow it.
the Horc 06-24-04, 10:46 AM	Originally posted by Pagan priest Most of the "exotic" weapons of the monk are simple peasant weapon in the Orient. I could see arguements for taking it on a case by case basis. On the other hand, it is creeping into a dependance on material goods, somethingh that a VoP character should always try to avoid. Sadly, I had just come up with a neat idea for a monk: Umbella (if you have seen the movie Iron Monkey, there are some great fight scenes using an umbrella. Unfortunately, that would be an exotic weapon. Well, I think that a VoP Bard should be allowed to use a whip before he gets to use a morningstar.
Marcus Majarra 06-24-04, 11:49 AM	Originally posted by Pagan priest Marcus Majarra, I thinkyour last paragraph shows why it should be allowed. The monk is giving up all progression as a monk (including increases to unarmed damage) to advance as a kensai. While non-monk VoP'ed kensai cannot benefit from the signature weapon, that only means that kensai + VoP is a sub-optimal choice for any character other than a monk. Think of it this way, a monk/kensai is learning a particular way to focus his ki, a way that allows strange and unique manifestations of that ki in his unarmed attacks. Such an explanation is easily within the realm of acceptability for a VoP monk. It allows for all sorts of nifty wuxia action, fighting ghosts, flaming fists of death, even flight (if you are also using Oriental Adventures. The fact that anyone else would need a masterwork weapon is totally irrelavent. At the right levels, a monk gains the ability to strike as a magic weapon, and a lawful weapon and as an adamantine weapon. Each of these would be have to start out as masterwork for any other character. Let's be consistant, okay? Technically, any character can advance as a Kensai dedicated to the unarmed strike, albeit they would be limiting themselves to a poor attack routine and 1d3 or 1d4 damage depending on size. This is why the Kensai PrC and the VoP should never be used in conjunction. It creates far too many balance issues to deal with. While the VoP is advantageous to a monk, it does not give him any more advantages than it does for other classes. On the other hand, the Kensai PrC is far more beneficial to a VoP monk than any other VoP class. In my interpretation, I would have the Kensai class require a masterwork weapon to be able to use the signature weapon. Since unarmed strikes can't be a masterwork item, I would consider using signature unarmed strikes as using a masterwork weapon for the purposes of the Signature Weapon Kensai ability, which automatically rules out the possibility of any conjunction with the Vow of Poverty. In a sense, the designer of the Vow is also justified in stating that the Kensai's signature weapons become magical in essence, which justifies denying the VoP character from using a Kensai signature weapon.
Pagan priest 06-24-04, 02:54 PM	Originally posted by Marcus Majarra Technically, any character can advance as a Kensai dedicated to the unarmed strike, albeit they would be limiting themselves to a poor attack routine and 1d3 or 1d4 damage depending on size. This is why the Kensai PrC and the VoP should never be used in conjunction. It creates far too many balance issues to deal with. While the VoP is advantageous to a monk, it does not give him any more advantages than it does for other classes. On the other hand, the Kensai PrC is far more beneficial to a VoP monk than any other VoP class. All this is saying is that VoP Kensai is a suboptimal choice for others, it does not negate the value of taking it as a monk. Okay, this is a side track, but I just realized what this arguement sounded like. All that assinine bs in public schools about having all the kids advance together, so no one suffers in their self esteem for being left behind. The arguement is garbage there, and it it not worth any more here. In my interpretation, I would have the Kensai class require a masterwork weapon to be able to use the signature weapon. I thought that was already the rule. Since unarmed strikes can't be a masterwork item, I would consider using signature unarmed strikes as using a masterwork weapon for the purposes of the Signature Weapon Kensai ability, which automatically rules out the possibility of any conjunction with the Vow of Poverty. Go read the monk class. Right now. It looks to me like you have not actually read the monk's class abilities. Their unarmed strikes are effectively magic, lawful, and adamantine without taking any levels as kensai. Since there is no rule forbidding monks from taking the VoP, your statement is pointless. In a sense, the designer of the Vow is also justified in stating that the Kensai's signature weapons become magical in essence, which justifies denying the VoP character from using a Kensai signature weapon. Celestials have numerous spell-like ablilities and supernatural abilities. Since some of these may be weapon like or duplicate the effect of a magic item, shall we ban celestials from taking the VoP?
D_Drader 06-26-04, 02:48 AM	Originally posted by zimri Hmm probably can't do anything to "enhance" your basic soulknife. Darrin Drader (the person that wrote VoP) said that using a kensai's ability to improve a monks unarmed strikes broke the vow, I can't see how using a soul knife that was enhanced beyond the first one you got access to would be any different. Hi folks. I just caught this today and I want to clear up a misconception that has sprung up, largely due to that thread at ENWorld that I jumped into. I have commented before on what the VoP can and cannot be used with, and I am also credited as one of the authors of the BOeD, but I was NOT the one who wrote the Vow of Poverty. That person would be James Wyatt. However, due to my involvement with the book, I was in on many of the discussions about it, which is why I have some insight on how it should and shouldn't be used. In case you're curious what I did contribute to the book, it was a smattering of items including the following prestige classes: The Anointed Knight, Beloved of Valarian, Sentinel of Bharrai, Skylord, and the Vassal of Bahamut (I think I might have also done the Stalker of Kharash, but I honestly don't remember if that was one of mine or not). The bulk of the work I did on the book was in the spells section. Then there's the owl archon, the leskylor, and the sanctified creature template. I just wanted to straighten that out. Its a minor issue, but I don't like taking credit for other people's work, even when its only the assumption of such credit and was the result of a bit of harmless miscommunication. - Darrin Drader
zimri 06-26-04, 08:07 AM	Sorry Darrin I misunderstood. Espescially when you came out with "Read the names on the book" Mea Culpa Many apologies to James Wyatt
D_Drader 06-26-04, 01:44 PM	Originally posted by zimri Sorry Darrin I misunderstood. Espescially when you came out with "Read the names on the book" Mea Culpa Many apologies to James Wyatt I agree that my statement was overly blunt and more than a little arrogant. The comment was really made because of a previous disagreement with one of the other posters regarding the issue. As far as a rationale for why you can't do this with the kensai, it involves a few factors. Obviously there's the simple fact that the feat says that you can't have magical weapons and the kensai's signature weapon ability essentially allows you to turn your body into a magical weapon. The standard mechanic for creating a magical weapon is that you spend gold and materials to get a permanent enhancement or ability added to a weapon. The kensai reduces these costs and pays only XP, but it does end with the same results. On the other hand, you can take the Vow of Poverty and still get standard equipment for your class. A wizard can have a spell book and cast spells without violating the VoP. So, if a DM uses VoP the way it is intended (which they are by no means forced to do), when judging these borderline cases, you should really answer a few questions: 1. Does the character pay gold or XP for an effect? 2. Is the enhancement permanent? 3. Would the class still be balanced without the use of the ability in question. If the answer to any of these is yes, then a DM should consider not allowing a character with the VoP to use that ability without breaking th VoP. The soulknife is an interesting case since the mind blade is almost a magical item itself, plus you add ehancement bonuses to it over the class's progression. On the other hand it is psionic and not magic, and psionics aren't covered in the decription of the feat. Also, even though the enhancements are permanent, you never pay for it. To confuse the argument even further, this is a core class and the bonuses to your mind blade are features of your advancement. Character class abilities are theoretically balanced from one class to the next, which is something that is extremely important to the core classes. Taking away an ability from a core class does weaken it. When looked at from another angle, the soulknife is basically a character that specializes in a single martial weapon, but only gets the base attack progression of a cleric. This is then made up for by the enhancement bonus that his mindblade gets. The mind blade enhancement that the soul knife gets also offsets this somewhat, when compared to a fighter. With all of their bonus feats, the two classes are still pretty close in power, even when you take into account the mindblade enhancements. To put it another way, would this be a reasonable class if the +X mindblade enhancement wasn't part of the class, but the BAB went 1 to 20 instead of 1 to 15? So the question of which way an "official" ruling should go on this is neither easy nor clearcut. It is really my opinion that there are just certain character classes that shouldn't take the VoP. The kensai is one, the vassal of Bahamut is one. The Soulknife is another. Ultimately I'm going to say that you can use the mind blade enhancements, however. The reasons are as follows: 1. The +X mind blade is part of the class progression rather than being a subject to the character's choice. Class abilities are automatic. You can't choose not to take a class ability, though you can always chose not to use certain ones. 2. No XP are spent to enhance the mind blade. It is an automatic thing you get. 3. The mind blade is not a physical item that you carry with you (a minor distinction, I admit). 4. The soul knife would be a balanced character class if its BAB ran 1 to 20 and didn't get the enhancement to the mind blade. So the final question is how official is this answer? Since I am part of Custserv, it holds water with the RPGA unless Skip or the R&D department release material that reaches a different conclusion. Of course a DM is free to make whatever decision they wish in their home game.
Marcus Majarra 06-26-04, 04:51 PM	Thanks for the clarifications, Mr. Drader. If I might contribute my two cents to the lot, I'd sum up my point to the following: the objective is not to determine which classes should or should not be eligible for the Vow of Poverty, but rather how the class conforms itself to the spirit of the Vow: not relying on material possessions. As such, it's only natural that classes with little inclination to using material possessions in the first place are attracted to such a Vow. It's no surprise that monks, druids, sorcerors and pretty much all the psionic classes make good choices for the Vow. In this perspective, I feel the Vow should be corrected as to prevent any abuse from "too much stacking." This was covered nicely regarding the exalted bonus to AC (which is stated as not stacking with armor bonuses, not applying to touch attacks, but blocking brilliant energy attacks; this is essentially an armor bonus that also blocks brilliant energy weapons), and could easily be applied to the Exalted Strike ability. Put simply, the attack roll and damage bonus should be either an enhancement bonus, or not stack at all with an enhancement bonus (I prefer the latter, as it still forces kensai and soulknives to be able to create a weapon with an enhancement bonus before adding extra abilities). Any thoughts?
Pagan priest 06-26-04, 04:56 PM	As far as the VoP character expending XP to get something, I would point out that a spell cster with VoP has the option to use up XP in place of expensive material components. As such, I still don't see a game mechanics reason for a VoP kensai/monk to not be able to enhance their UAS.
zimri 06-27-04, 04:00 PM	D_Drader (by the way how would you prefer I adress you ? I was going to use Darrin but that seemed overly familiar, and Mr. Drader seemed overly cold and dismissive) Then we are back to But my hands are NOT a material possession, nor are my elbows, my feet, my knees, or my forehead. That said I CAN see how a kensai VoP monk could be overpowered (espescially when you look at the other class abilities they get) My issue (and what prompted the enworld thread) is that exalted strike bonuses while nice aren't going to do a whole lot to get me past a dr 20/ cold iron, or help in smacking around something that is ethereal.
D_Drader 06-27-04, 07:35 PM	Originally posted by zimri D_Drader (by the way how would you prefer I adress you ? I was going to use Darrin but that seemed overly familiar, and Mr. Drader seemed overly cold and dismissive) Feel free to call me Darrin. I always said that once people start calling me Mr., I'm too darn old. Granted, the hairline isn't quite where it used to be. :D That said I CAN see how a kensai VoP monk could be overpowered (espescially when you look at the other class abilities they get) My issue (and what prompted the enworld thread) is that exalted strike bonuses while nice aren't going to do a whole lot to get me past a dr 20/ cold iron, or help in smacking around something that is ethereal. I agree, that is a good point, and possibly one that wasn't originally considered. Right now the vow states that you can only have your clothes, ordinary simple weapons, and a few other specific types of items. Obviously a cold iron weapon (or a weapon made of any other special material) is not ordinary, so you can't use it without breaking your vow. It also states that you can't borrow such weapons. It really does take you out of the fight against certain creatures when you get to mid- and higher levels. I really doubt that James intended that when he designed the vow, though I can ask him next time I see him to see if there's anything to do about it. Back to the kensai for a moment, the main reason I don't like it is that you have to pay for the enhancements to the signature weapon. If the prestige class were truly balanced against other prestige classes with the enhancements added to the signature weapon, it would not require you to spend XP on the enhancements. I really do believe that this combination leaves you with an overpowered character. Is it so overpowered that it would break the game? Good question. I'd like to playtest this to find out. It is entirely possible that I'm wrong about the kensai and that decision should be reversed. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. The other problem I see with this solution is that even if the kensai signature weapon is allowed with the VoP, then you pretty much have to take levels of kensai in order to be effective against certain types of damage reduction if you have the VoP. So the choices become whether the character with VoP should be underpowered, overpowered, or something else? Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of work-arounds that wouldn't unbalance the character. The first would be to design a spell that makes any weapon behave as though it is made of a special material for the purposes of overcoming DR. Admittedly, that is limited by the need to have a spellcaster around to cast it on you and the willingness of said spellcaster to actually use up a spell slot or two just to handle this situation. Probably not the best solution. Another possibility is a feat (in fact I think there might already be one that does this) that allows your ki strikes to temporarily change to treat your unarmed attacks as weapons of a type other than the ones provided under the monk class. Perhaps this would need to be limited to taking the feat multiple times for each material you wish your unarmed attacks to emulate. A third option would be to errata the vow to either allow you to own monk weapons made of special materials or add something similar to exalted strike that covers the various DR materials that are not already included in either the the monk class or the VoP. My preference would be to errata the vow to allow you to carry monk weapons made of special materials and create the feat, that way you can bypass the DR 20/cold iron and others with either monk weapons or unarmed strikes. As a matter of fact, if a PC in my game were to take the VoP in my game, I would houserule this. I'll see if I can get with the various concerned parties in the coming days and revisit this issue and come up with a different answer. Obviously R&D is still the final authority, but as I stated before, until the FAQ, errata, or a sage advice column disagrees, my department is still the best source of answers for issues of this nature.
Kyuketsukiouji 06-27-04, 07:55 PM	Ignore Damage Resistance is an Epic Feat. (I might have the name wrong).
zimri 06-27-04, 09:05 PM	A couple work arounds I thought of were 1) new exalted feats ( a chain of them) that imbue your aura with an affinty to a substance. (aura of cold iron, aura of silver, etcetera, granted I am only thinking as a monk here. I already get magic, lawful and admantine free) this solves the problem of "not enough exalted feats for combat classes" that some people have seen. I am not one of those people but there you have it. 2) Allow a VoP to "trade" (although I am not sure how a mechanic for this would work) either permanently or as the situation warrants points from exalted strike (both to hit and to damage) for the ability to overcome a specific creatures DR. I see it as something like Power attack 3) Flat out say that at each level where you gain a bonus to exalted strike you can choose from a list of descriptors for any weapon you swing (or perhaps make that a feat) choose from Cold Iron , silver and , ghost touch (if I recall correctly without looking it up VoP get magic and good for free.
Ertai Planeswalker 06-28-04, 07:39 AM	I do not have the CW, but IIRC the Kensai ability said that '..in the hands of a Kensai the weapon gains... In other words, the weapon won't be of any value to anyone else since it is still not magical for anyone but the Kensai. Using standard economics, that means that the weapon won't sell for more than it's base price. Come to think of it, a high level character standard weapon would be worth a few hundred GP among the nobles. Who cares it's a common sword? It;s the sword that [insert pc name here] wielded in the final battle against that great dragon. So as soon as you get a fanbase you're screwed as a VoP char. Solution? Don't try to take everything so litterally.
Pagan priest 06-28-04, 04:49 PM	Originally posted by Ertai Planeswalker I do not have the CW, but IIRC the Kensai ability said that '..in the hands of a Kensai the weapon gains... In other words, the weapon won't be of any value to anyone else since it is still not magical for anyone but the Kensai. Using standard economics, that means that the weapon won't sell for more than it's base price. But that base price is based on the weapon needing to be masterworked....
Lowinor 06-29-04, 12:51 PM	Unless there's some BoED errata that I'm not aware of, the Exalted Strike ability of the VoP is an enhancement bonus, not an exalted bonus, and hence would not stack with the Kensai or Soulknife enhancement bonuses if permitted anyway. The Kensai would have a lot more freedom, as he could apply the effective bonuses all as special abilities instead of raw enhancement bonuses, while the Soulknife is forced to take enhancement bonuses which would be completely redundant to VoP; the Soulknife would only see actual benefit from his Mind Blade enhancements at a few levels (8, 9, 12, 13, 16), and even then only +1 over the bonus given by VoP. As far as breaking the VoP, the VoP itself states pretty darn clearly that using a magic item breaks it. Kensai also states that the signature weapon becomes magical when it's imbued. It would seem to me that the kensai/monk could enhance his fists with the kensai ability and be fine per VoP (as it's not owning a magical item)... but the moment he hits someone with his now magical fists, he's broken the vow by using something magical. The monk Ki strike ability itself wouldn't break the vow; it doesn't make the fists magical, just lets monks bypass damage reduction as if the fists were magical. As for the Soulknife, it may well be an oversight in the XPH, but the Mind Blade is not magical. It's a supernatural ability that grants an enhancement bonus, sure, but there aren't any rules specifying its treatment as a magical item. So it seems the Soulknife fits in, but as said above, doesn't get quite the bonus out of it a Kensai would (if allowed). Personally, I really wouldn't have an issue with a VoP Soulknife. Hey, how many people have wanted to play a Jedi in D&D? :D
zimri 06-29-04, 09:31 PM	Originally posted by Lowinor As far as breaking the VoP, the VoP itself states pretty darn clearly that using a magic item breaks it. Kensai also states that the signature weapon becomes magical when it's imbued. It would seem to me that the kensai/monk could enhance his fists with the kensai ability and be fine per VoP (as it's not owning a magical item)... but the moment he hits someone with his now magical fists, he's broken the vow by using something magical. Ummm they CAN USE magical items. They CAN use potions, they CAN ride on a friends ebony fly (both examples from the BOED) They CAN use tatooed monk tatoos and abilities, They CAN use psionic tatoos (D_Drader co author BOED, and custserv for WOTC)
Lowinor 06-30-04, 08:28 AM	Originally posted by zimri Ummm they CAN USE magical items. They CAN use potions, they CAN ride on a friends ebony fly (both examples from the BOED) They CAN use tatooed monk tatoos and abilities, They CAN use psionic tatoos (D_Drader co author BOED, and custserv for WOTC) The friend's ebony fly is an exception because someone else is doing the using for you. The relevant text is: Book of Exalted Deeds p.48 You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you may benefit from magic items used on your behalf They can only be 'served' potions, they can't carry them for their own use, and can't use wands or other trigger items. As I said, the feat is very clear on the prohibition of using magic items (with an exception for items used by others on your behalf). Psionic tatoos (and mind blades, for that matter) are neither magical nor a material possession, as such are excluded. The text of the Tattooed Monk's abilities come from the monk herself, not the actual tattoos. They are magical (and if you want to argue that the magical ink inside the monk's skin qualifies as a material possession, that's one thing), but the powers used are part of the class, not of the tattoo -- the tattoos are required but not 'used' in the activation of the powers.
zimri 06-30-04, 11:25 AM	Originally posted by Lowinor The friend's ebony fly is an exception because someone else is doing the using for you. The relevant text is: They can only be 'served' potions, they can't carry them for their own use, and can't use wands or other trigger items. As I said, the feat is very clear on the prohibition of using magic items (with an exception for items used by others on your behalf). Psionic tatoos (and mind blades, for that matter) are neither magical nor a material possession, as such are excluded. The text of the Tattooed Monk's abilities come from the monk herself, not the actual tattoos. They are magical (and if you want to argue that the magical ink inside the monk's skin qualifies as a material possession, that's one thing), but the powers used are part of the class, not of the tattoo -- the tattoos are required but not 'used' in the activation of the powers. 1) The Vow from the feats section IS clear about that part you are correct. The vow CLEARLY states you CAN drink a potion given to you. The vow does NOT state "your vow is not broken if someone pours a potion down your throat". Nor does it list ANY time frame between the potion being given and you using it. 2) FR says Psionics are the same so are you then saying that the ruling should differ for some players and not others ? 3) Psionic tatoos ARE used when triggered. they are the psionic equivalent of potions, and cost both gold and xp to make. 4) My characters body is not a possession. 5) My body become magical for the duration of any spell cast on it (enlarge, greater magical weapon, bull's strength, etcetera) by your logic then as soon as I use whatever benifit is cast on me I break the vow because I used a magical weapon. but the moment he hits someone with his now magical fists, he's broken the vow by using something magical
Lowinor 06-30-04, 01:18 PM	(Before getting any farther in this, I should point out that I'm arguing solely on the basis of the rules as written; it seems to me that balance/theme reasons are actually more convincing for allowing/disallowing any of the above, but it's certainly possible to come up with a consistent interpretation of the Vow of Poverty strictly within the letter of the rules, and that's what I'm attempting, pedantic or not) The Vow from the feats section IS clear about that part you are correct. The vow CLEARLY states you CAN drink a potion given to you. The vow does NOT state "your vow is not broken if someone pours a potion down your throat". Nor does it list ANY time frame between the potion being given and you using it. I would read that as you must be given the potion and immediately drink it, else it violates the rule on possessing a magical item, as well as the case of drinking a potion given to you as an explicitly stated exception to the rule covered under "magic items used on your behalf". It does state that you can drink the potion, though, not that you can possess it. 2) FR says Psionics are the same so are you then saying that the ruling should differ for some players and not others ? Magic works differently in different realms, FR being one with at least slightly different rules for the way magic works. I don't see this as any form of obstacle, and if FR does explicitly state that all psionic items are magic items, then, yes, the ruling would be different for characters in FR. 3) Psionic tatoos ARE used when triggered. they are the psionic equivalent of potions, and cost both gold and xp to make. Please re-read my post. I never stated that psionic tattoos were not activated on use, just that tattooed monk tattoos aren't -- the way the PrC is written, having the tattoo grants the monk supernatural abilities as a class feature, not as a feature of the tattoo itself. 4) My characters body is not a possession. I never stated that it was. I said that it's arguable that magical ink inside a character's skin is a possession. 5) My body become magical for the duration of any spell cast on it (enlarge, greater magical weapon, bull's strength, etcetera) by your logic then as soon as I use whatever benifit is cast on me I break the vow because I used a magical weapon. Unlike the Kensai ability, the above spells do not specifically mention giving something the magical property. That's the crux of it -- the Kensai abilities makes the signature weapon (which can include a monk's unarmed strike) explicitly magical. Bull's strength just gives an enhancement bonus to strength without changing any properties of the target.
zimri 06-30-04, 02:17 PM	I would read that as you must be given the potion and immediately drink it, else it violates the rule on possessing a magical item, as well as the case of drinking a potion given to you as an explicitly stated exception to the rule covered under "magic items used on your behalf". You can read it that way all you want but that wasn't what the RAW actually says. It is how you choose to interpret it It does state that you can drink the potion, though, not that you can possess it. So then tell me how do YOU drink it without having it in YOUR possession ? I never stated that it was. I said that it's arguable that magical ink inside a character's skin is a possession. no but you did say that things that are not possessions are excluded. My body not being a possession must therefore be excluded. Unlike the Kensai ability, the above spells do not specifically mention giving something the magical property. That's the crux of it -- the Kensai abilities makes the signature weapon (which can include a monk's unarmed strike) explicitly magical. Bull's strength just gives an enhancement bonus to strength without changing any properties of the target. Okay so WHAT then changes my characters strength ? What then makes my fist blessed ? It isn't natural, and it isn't technology. If only things that are magic overcome magic DR and my unarmed strikes overcome magic DR that would make them MAGIC.
Lowinor 06-30-04, 02:58 PM	You can read it that way all you want but that wasn't what the RAW actually says. It is how you choose to interpret it That particular paragraph isn't written terribly clearly, no, but I fail to see how you can get that VoP characters can use magic items (in general from it) -- even the text about drinking a given potion is followed immediately by a prohibiton of having a magic item for "even a single round". I just can't see any justification in the rules to allow a VoP character to carry around any magic item. So then tell me how do YOU drink it without having it in YOUR possession ? You drink it while your friend is holding the vial. This would presumably, if used in combat, require an Aid Other action. The rules seem to require this to avoid a contradiction. no but you did say that things that are not possessions are excluded. My body not being a possession must therefore be excluded. Hence I said arguable. I don't think it's clear that the tattoo necessarily becomes part of the character's body. As I said, it's arguable, but I tend to agree with you that it wouldn't count as a possession. Okay so WHAT then changes my characters strength ? What then makes my fist blessed ? It isn't natural, and it isn't technology. As you said above, this is a RAW issue. The rules make a distinction between something being intrinsically magical and simply under the effect of a magical effect. If only things that are magic overcome magic DR and my unarmed strikes overcome magic DR that would make them MAGIC. RAW issue, again. Relevant rules: Player's Handbook, p.41 (Monk Ki Strike ability) Her unarmed attacks are treated as magical weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction Complete Warrior, p.51 (Kensai Signature Weapon ability) The signature weapon then becomes a magic weapon Monk unarmed strikes don't become magic weapons from the Ki Strike ability, but with the Kensai signature weapon ability, they do.
zimri 06-30-04, 10:39 PM	If my body is not a possession than I do not "possess" anything magical by enhancing it with kensai abilities. Having my companions hold the potion while I drink it seems ludicrous and does not at all match up with "may use a potion GIVEN to you." If something is given to you it is in your possession. WHAT enhances a characters strength when they are under the effects of a bull strength spell ? WHAT makes a blessed weapon blessed ? WHAT enhances your AC when mage armor is cast ? WHAT makes your body grow when enlarge is cast ? I am not talking about the tatoo being a possession. I am talking about my fists , my forehead, my feet, knees, and elbows. I suppose next I won't be able to inhale air that has some magical effect because while it is in my lungs I am possessing something magical.
Lowinor 07-01-04, 08:38 AM	Zimri, you're not reading my posts very well. I've never said that the Kensai ability broke the VoP because it violated the "possessing a magic item" rule, check my first post -- it breaks the "use a magic item" rule as soon as you attack something with your magical body. And also, as I said, I'm arguing stricly from a RAW perspective -- and the rules do make a distinction between something that is magical and something under the effect of a magic spell. Being buffed doesn't make you magical, but the Kensai ability specifically says that it makes the signature weapon (which can include a monk's unarmed strike) magical. As for drinking a potion someone else is holding for you... The use of 'gives' in that paragraph is ambiguous, especially with regards to the rest of it. I can't think of any other way to have it work that isn't internally contradictory -- it says you can drink the given potion, then in the next sentence, it says you can't own anything magical, even something "borrowed", for even a round.
Marcus Majarra 07-01-04, 12:56 PM	Can we all just agree on the fact that, due to the paragraphs on the VoP being poorly written, there isn't a fixed ruling on what can and can't be done? Let's try to stick to the core concept of the Vow of Poverty.
Pagan priest 07-01-04, 01:35 PM	I'd say that the problem is with the wording of the kensai, since it is worded so as to make a monk's fists into magic weapons. VoP aside, I have problems with that wording. It implys that anyone with access to Craft Magical Weapons can enchance an unarmed strike into a +3, Ghost Touch, Flaming, Impact unarmed strike. Think about it, would you allow a monk without the VoP to walk up to his frendly neighborhood high level wizard and ask for all these enchancement bonuses to be pumped into his unarked strike? I think it is much better to move slightly away from RAW and see it as the kensai learning a new way to power up his ki energy.
Lowinor 07-01-04, 06:31 PM	Originally posted by Pagan priest I'd say that the problem is with the wording of the kensai, since it is worded so as to make a monk's fists into magic weapons. VoP aside, I have problems with that wording. Bingo.
zimri 07-02-04, 12:16 AM	Yes the very notion of the RAW allowing unarmed or natural attacks to count is ludicrous. I mean I can see why they did it otherwise monks would never take the PrC. But Kensai translates to Sword Saint. Logic would dictate that you MUST use a masterworked weapon not an unarmed strike. The RAW however does not always equal logic. Just for the edification of everyone on the thread, I personally have no vested interest in the argument at hand as I find the kensai PrC and VoP monk combined to be overpowering due to the other kensai special abilities. I'll just write an exalted feat that allows me to exchange a +1 of my exalted bonus for cold iron, another +1 for ghost touch, and another +1 for silver. I am more than willing to give up the + to hit and damage to , you know be able to actually hit and damage things.
Pagan priest 07-08-04, 08:10 PM	But if we go with the translation as Sword Saint, then we have a PrC that can only be used with a sword. It might be appropriate for some settings to have that restriction, but not for all. To make the class as general purpose as possible, allowing any weapon is reasonable. If any weapon is allowable, then there is no good reason to deny unarmed strikes.
Slagger the Chuul 07-12-04, 09:56 AM	Originally posted by Pagan priest Think about it, would you allow a monk without the VoP to walk up to his frendly neighborhood high level wizard and ask for all these enchancement bonuses to be pumped into his unarked strike? I'd require the monk to also pay for at least a +1 enhancement bonus (since his unarmed strikes penetrate damage reduction like magic weapons, but they're not true magic weapons), and I might double the price, since it's like a slotless item, but I think I might actually allow this, and treat it as just another kind of weapon. After all, you can use permanency on the magic fang spell, for much the same result. Not very useful for the Vow of Poverty, though.
Objulen 07-15-04, 01:35 AM	Use common sense people. A monk's natural weapons are automaticaly treated as magical for bypassing DR at level 4, so I guess that breaks the feat right there. Further, a Kensai's Signiture Weapon specifially states it can be a natural weapon. But beyond that, let's use some simple logic. What is a vow of poverty? It is a vow to be poor, i.e., to have few material possessions of any monetary worth. Since hands dont' have monetary worth in that sense, they don't count. Further, since the magical enhancements from the Kensai class only works for the individual Kensai, it is worthless, i.e. has not value, to anyone else. In addition, the requirement from VoP is ludicrious in many circumstances: O, wait, there's a demon. Should I pick up my staggered friend's spare holy demon bane cold iron longsword + 3 or stand here with my thumb up my *ss while the demon kills everyone in the villiage because I couldn't get past its DR and regeneration without breaking my feat? I'm sorry, but exalted feats are about being holy and doing good, and a vow of poverty means that you won't own things of value, instead donating the rest to charity, not that you will act like a mindless drone who has to adhere to a poorly worded feat. And if a cleric casts Magic Weapon, making a weapon temporarily magical, then it would break it as well. The feat should have a gp limit on the character's personal possessions, not on what can and can't be used -- its up to the DM to inforce the roleplaying restrictions of the feat and make sure the character isn't trying to circumvent the restrictions. Let's also not forget, The Nature's Warrior PrC. The Nature's Weapon special ability give your natural weapons a +1 enhancement bonus and treats them as natural weapons. So much for VoP. And if you really want to take this to its logical extreme, you could count a psion's psionically charged mind, or a sorcerer's or favored soul's innate casting abilities.
Temo Vryce 07-28-04, 10:35 AM	I would just like to point out something about the Kensi PrC. When I read the class desription no where did it say that you "HAD" to imbue a signature weapon. You may choose your hands to be your signature weapon but you do not have to spend the XP to imbue them. If you choose not to do so you can take the class and not break the VoP. Just something to think about.
Pagan priest 07-29-04, 01:44 PM	True. And a wizard doesn't have to cast spells.
Temo Vryce 07-29-04, 03:11 PM	Quite true, I've even seen it done where a friend played a Wizard that only used wands. The point that I was trying to make was that if you weren't out to get the imbue bonuses from the Kensi PrC then you can take the class for the other bonus abilites and not break your sacred vow.