Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dusken 04-22-08, 10:54 PM	Can we get past these fluff books please? Races and Classes, Worlds and Monsters, Adventurer's Guide to Eberron? What's next? A book that outlines how new material is prepared for the next edition? Perhaps I'm still stinging after realizing that the complete series stops at 7, leaving fighter classes one book short. (No, the Tome of Battle does not count, it's the partner book for the Tome of Magic) Perhaps my desire to keep 3.5 around is clouding my judgement. I thumbed through the Adventurer's Guide to Eberron the other day, thinking that it might be my next addition to my library. No original artwork, no game information, just "See, shifters are neat!" There has been quality in the past. Why did it come to a halt? All this fluff concerns me. Is this a glimpse of things to come? Will 4E require the purchase of three books to get one book of actual game material? Give me break. My games are not on hold because new book are due out in June. Anyone share this thought? Anyone have anything to add that isn't already covered in numerous 4E hate threads?
Etarnon 04-22-08, 11:02 PM	They new 4e was coming out a long time ago. Face it, as a gamer, they've done to you what is normally called, Trading Up. They're marketing to the WoW crowd. They'll make a pile off of 4e. Play the version you like.
Tequila_Sunrise 04-22-08, 11:07 PM	Yeah I can sympathize with not seeing the books you want coming from WotC. That said, there's nothing stopping you from making your own crunch. I, and many other gamers, do it all the time. (See the second link in my sig...) TS
Escef 04-23-08, 02:00 AM	Can we get past these fluff books please? Believe it or not, they are giving the community what it has been asking for. For at least a couple of years people were complaining that there was no fluff in the books. This just goes to prove that you can't please everybody.
Artifact 04-23-08, 04:57 AM	I think WotC put the hold on 3.5 material a bit too early, perhaps fearing the fans would sense a lame duck. This editorial (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dred/20071221) for Dragon #361 may help to explain why they made the decision. I don’t agree with their reasoning however; as you say, our games don't stop just because new books are due in June.
celestialkin 04-23-08, 06:55 AM	This editorial (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dred/20071221) for Dragon #361 may help to explain why they made the decision. I don’t agree with their reasoning however; as you say, our games don't stop just because new books are due in June. Giving new rules that won't have relevance in a few months Yeah... No relevance my a**. Oh, and I guess this also means that they are spending next to no time and resources on Dragon and Dungeon magazines. My sig couldn't be more on the money.
Seeker95 04-23-08, 08:47 AM	I don’t agree with their reasoning however; as you say, our games don't stop just because new books are due in June.Nor do our games stop just because they stop producing new books in the transition to 4e. I'm getting used to folks feeling like they need to rant. But my stock in Hasbro since the purchase of WotC has been performing just fine. Dips when the market dips, but it is currently at the highest it has been in the past five years.
celestialkin 04-23-08, 08:49 AM	Nor do our games stop just because they stop producing new books in the transition to 4e. I'm getting used to folks feeling like they need to rant. But my stock in Hasbro since the purchase of WotC has been performing just fine. Dips when the market dips, but it is currently at the highest it has been in the past five years. That's disappointing. However, it makes me wonder why people keep saying that "WotC needs to make money." "They are actually losing money, so that is why they are going this route and doing these things.".
Zombie_Babies 04-23-08, 09:17 AM	I thought I read somewhere that the books running up to 4.0 were supposed to be more fluffy so that they can be "ported" to 4.0 more easily. The intent was to make fluffy stuff you can transition from your current game format to the new one. I don't know if that's accurate or where I read it, but I do remember it.
Artifact 04-23-08, 10:53 AM	My games have continued on just fine during the transition. I miss the ol' Dragon of course, and its definitely slowed down the number of books I buy, but I don't really need 'em. Its just something I've always enjoyed, and once 4e get's rolling, I believe I'll continue to enjoy it. Book buying is a supplement to my actual gaming; not necessary, but a fun way to add some options. Nor do our games stop just because they stop producing new books in the transition to 4e. I'm getting used to folks feeling like they need to rant. But my stock in Hasbro since the purchase of WotC has been performing just fine. Dips when the market dips, but it is currently at the highest it has been in the past five years. Just to point out: WotC has brands other than D&D, such as Magic: The Gathering. A slow day for D&D is prolly balanced out by Magic ;).
Seeker95 04-23-08, 04:40 PM	A slow day for D&D is prolly balanced out by Magic ;).True. And WotC is a just a very small part of the Hasbro juggernaut. But I am equally confident that someone at Hasbro with the power to say stop is aware of the decisions being made at WotC, and the going-forward decision for 4e is known and approved by the higher ups. I am equally confident that Hasbro lets the folks at WotC do what they do best as long as what they do best is not losing money. The folks making 4e love D&D. Many have loved D&D since before they were employed by WotC and even since before WotC owned D&D. I suspect that whatever objections we non-employee players may have about 4e have been raised and addressed in the halls of WotC long before decisions to implement were detailed.
StruckingFuggle 04-23-08, 04:50 PM	Believe it or not, they are giving the community what it has been asking for. For at least a couple of years people were complaining that there was no fluff in the books. This just goes to prove that you can't please everybody. I don't think I've ever seen anyone saying that's they wanted all fluff and no crunch, or less crunch with their fluff, the gripings I've seen was that there was less fluff with their crunch. If you want an example of how to add fluff without losing crunch, ToB is pretty good even if I found most of the fluff laughable, the other stuff I don't know about 'cause I just couldn't pay attention to it because the earlier stuff lost me in its "meh"ness. BUT STILL the basic idea works. :p
vardock 04-23-08, 07:42 PM	they are trying to market to the WOW crowd. the crowd that has never touched a Pen and paper RPG in their life (with a few exceptions). and will never hear about 4th ed. beacuse they never cared about 3.5 or any other. dumping your consumer base for one that is largely unaware of your existence is stupid.
Kursk 04-23-08, 07:47 PM	The folks making 4e love D&D. Many have loved D&D since before they were employed by WotC and even since before WotC owned D&D. My 1 yr old LOVES mice. I won't let her take care of one as she'd squeeze it to death...
celestialkin 04-23-08, 09:33 PM	they are trying to market to the WOW crowd. the crowd that has never touched a Pen and paper RPG in their life (with a few exceptions). and will never hear about 4th ed. beacuse they never cared about 3.5 or any other. dumping your consumer base for one that is largely unaware of your existence is stupid. I have been thinking. WotC is trying to appeal to the MMORPG crowd, which is a very tech savvy crowd who is very used to the internet and online programs, plus they are on average a younger crowd, and are probably used to getting all their information/games instantly. And let's be honest, probably free. I already know a few people who pirate D&D material. I am just saying. edit: Turns out they are making a hip new commercial for 4.0. They will succeed in attracting the WoW crowd.
Dark Stryke 04-23-08, 10:58 PM	Every time someone says WotC is marketing to the WoW crowd, god kills a D12. Please, think of the D12s.
StruckingFuggle 04-23-08, 11:06 PM	Oooookay. So, how is DnD becoming like WoW as it moves into 4e? (ironically, I'm playing WoW as I type this :p)
Dusken 04-23-08, 11:46 PM	Okay, read the article. copy/pasted from the article: What does this mean? Well, for now, not much. You won't see much of a change in the free content (yes, I felt compelled to point out that we're dropping a hefty dime to get this content contracted, commission art, and pay freelance editors and typesetters to get it to you without expecting any compensation) in the next few months. So...I should feel guilty for the free content that I'm not using (that if it was printed, bounded, and put on a shelf with a price tag I would have bought anyway.) I'm putting that in the mental file with my parent's remark about paying for my college education when I wanted to drop out. The books they have put out will be reprinted partially in the new gamebooks. Already my players want to know how the infernal pact works with the warlock class and what level the dragon race will gain a breath weapon. So nuts to the transition theory. This reminds be of the release of Star Wars - The Phantom Menace. Me and a couple friends when to see the first midnight showing. We arrived at 9p, and stood in a line that moved at the speed of a lame glacier. Every fifteen minutes one of the theater employees would come out and whip up the frenzy. It was fine the first couple times, then the enthusiasm died pretty quickly. So instead of changing tactics, the employees would get louder. Louder, with shouting. And louder, with shouting and airhorns. Finally I had enough and left, thinking that getting sleep was a far better choice. I got home at 10:30 and was well rested the next day. I eventually watched the movie, well after it had been released to video. My point? I want to see what 4E is all about. I'll get the books. I'll play in the campaign one of my friends is planning just to try out the new toy. But for the love of God/Oghma/Palatine/Mystra/Boccob/etc. cease the airhorns and shouting. Else I might just wait for 4.5E.
Awesome_Dude 04-24-08, 12:02 AM	Every time someone says WotC is marketing to the WoW crowd, god kills a D12. Please, think of the D12s. Also, when someone verbally abuses people for doing nothing more than being in a target group (i.e. nothing whatsoever), God steps too far and kills a d20. Examples include using the phrase "WoW crowd" as a pejorative. That just pisses him off.
ciaran 04-24-08, 12:20 AM	Perhaps I'm still stinging after realizing that the complete series stops at 7, leaving fighter classes one book short. (No, the Tome of Battle does not count, it's the partner book for the Tome of Magic) What was Book of 9 Swords then? Was it a different series? Serious question. I don't have any after the first 4.
Dusken 04-24-08, 12:42 AM	The Book of 9 Swords is a tool for the player to further their efforts to badger their GMs (kidding). Check out the art at the beginning of each chapter. The Tome of Battle has color panel art, like the Tome of Magic. Format is the same for each, similar page borders to each other but not matching any of the others series. Each book introduces a new, intricate, subset of rules. The complete series and the races series had more of a "drop in" feel. New rules, but nothing as detailed as the Tomes. No color panel art at the beginning of each chapter. All page borders matched the core three books.
lastknightleft 04-24-08, 11:19 AM	I love that editorial that basically said "yes we feel preparing people to buy 4e is more important to us than them being happy with our magazine, but we can't wait to start charging you when 4e comes out"
Alter_Boy 04-24-08, 04:13 PM	Can we get past these fluff books please? Races and Classes, Worlds and Monsters, Adventurer's Guide to Eberron? What's next? A book that outlines how new material is prepared for the next edition? I thumbed through the Adventurer's Guide to Eberron the other day, thinking that it might be my next addition to my library. No original artwork, no game information, just "See, shifters are neat!" There has been quality in the past. Why did it come to a halt? All this fluff concerns me. Is this a glimpse of things to come? Will 4E require the purchase of three books to get one book of actual game material? I'm no scientist, but I think there might be a correlation between all the fluff in recent books and the change to 4ed crunch. Now, follow along with me. Maybe, just maybe, WotC thought that selling books using crunch that they themselves would soon invalidate might not sell well. So (and here's the tricky part, so read carefully), they thought that fluff that would not be invalidated by 4ed crunch would sell better. Just a theory.
Kursk 04-24-08, 04:22 PM	Maybe, just maybe, WotC thought that selling books using crunch that they themselves would soon invalidate might not sell well. So (and here's the tricky part, so read carefully), they thought that fluff that would not be invalidated by 4ed crunch would sell better. Just a theory. Like the Rules Compendium released last October?
The ShapeLess One 04-24-08, 04:54 PM	edit: Turns out they are making a hip new commercial for 4.0. They will succeed in attracting the WoW crowd. I don't think that the commercial will attract anymore WOW crowd than word of mouth will. They don't want to read or roll dice or imagine things. They just want to click click click "PhaT-LootZ" Thats not to say that some of them wont start playing. I just don't think WotC wont get the turn out they think they will.
Jaxgaret 04-24-08, 06:31 PM	I am equally confident that Hasbro lets the folks at WotC do what they do best as long as what they do best is not losing money. The folks making 4e love D&D. Many have loved D&D since before they were employed by WotC and even since before WotC owned D&D. I suspect that whatever objections we non-employee players may have about 4e have been raised and addressed in the halls of WotC long before decisions to implement were detailed. Indeed. Hasbro, WotC, and anyone working on developing 4e are perfect, nigh-deific beings who are here on this earth only to make sure that it is the ultimate edition of D&D that will please everyone, and if you don't like it or even an aspect of it then you are surely mentally handicapped in some manner because they thought of your objection already and you are just wrong.
vardock 04-24-08, 06:36 PM	I don't think that the commercial will attract anymore WOW crowd than word of mouth will. They don't want to read or roll dice or imagine things. They just want to click click click "PhaT-LootZ" Thats not to say that some of them wont start playing. I just don't think WotC wont get the turn out they think they will. Besides. Those people are already shoveling out money for their WOW subscriptions and Expansions. Most simply do not have the funds to pursue 4th ed. with it's additional monthly fees. Those that do, usually invest it in the WOW trading Card Game, or the WOW board game.
StruckingFuggle 04-24-08, 06:57 PM	I don't think that the commercial will attract anymore WOW crowd than word of mouth will. They don't want to read or roll dice or imagine things. They just want to click click click "PhaT-LootZ" Thats not to say that some of them wont start playing. I just don't think WotC wont get the turn out they think they will. Seriously, will you please stop overgeneralizing us? I'd make nasty generalizations about you, but that would be both petty of me, and include both me and many of the people I game with, most of whom play both WoW and Dungeons and Dragons.
celestialkin 04-24-08, 07:12 PM	Seriously, will you please stop overgeneralizing us? I'd make nasty generalizations about you, but that would be both petty of me, and include both me and many of the people I game with, most of whom play both WoW and Dungeons and Dragons. Congratulations then. Now you all get to do them both at once! :D ........not in the face...:hides:
Jaxgaret 04-24-08, 09:53 PM	Why does everyone keep on saying that WoW players are preoccupied with collecting fat lutes? No one plays a Bard there. :rimshot:
Escef 04-25-08, 02:41 AM	Anyone else makes a dumb-ass comment about a 4e/WoW connection and I'm going to kick a baby in the face. :nonono:
Etarnon 04-25-08, 07:23 AM	4e = Marketed to Teen WoW Players. CPS is en route.
Seeker95 04-25-08, 08:31 AM	[...] and I'm going to kick a baby in the face.Can you let us know whose baby? That might adjust our reticence to provoke. :devil:
lastknightleft 04-25-08, 10:19 AM	Anyone else makes a dumb-ass comment about a 4e/WoW connection and I'm going to kick a baby in the face. :nonono: 4e is just wow without a computer, and I can confidently state this having never played WoW ever. Now get to the baby kicking.
Kursk 04-25-08, 10:23 AM	4e is just wow without a computer, and I can confidently state this having never played WoW ever. Now get to the baby kicking. y'all got it wrong. It most closely resembles, and was modeled after Gauntlet. Got this from a PM.
Zombie_Babies 04-25-08, 10:36 AM	y'all got it wrong. It most closely resembles, and was modeled after Gauntlet. Got this from a PM. Can we kick babies anyway? Babies suck.
Kursk 04-25-08, 10:56 AM	Can we kick babies anyway? Babies suck. Well... All right. :cool:
Zombie_Babies 04-25-08, 11:03 AM	Well... All right. :cool: Yay! :w00t:
Kursk 04-25-08, 11:15 AM	Yay! :w00t: http://www.lclark.edu/~hesdaile/pictures/baby.jpg
Escef 04-25-08, 11:24 AM	... Um... Guys... Do you know any good lawyers? Also, how do you get blood of off desert boots? The chunky bits aren't a problem, but them baby-heads... yeah. They kinda', sorta' detonate when you kick them. And, Kursk... That was the most disturbing picture I've seen in some time.
Kursk 04-25-08, 11:30 AM	... Um... Guys... Do you know any good lawyers? Also, how do you get blood of off desert boots? The chunky bits aren't a problem, but them baby-heads... yeah. They kinda', sorta' detonate when you kick them. And, Kursk... That was the most disturbing picture I've seen in some time. It's a, umm... pedopede.
Zombie_Babies 04-25-08, 12:14 PM	... Um... Guys... Do you know any good lawyers? Also, how do you get blood of off desert boots? The chunky bits aren't a problem, but them baby-heads... yeah. They kinda', sorta' detonate when you kick them. And, Kursk... That was the most disturbing picture I've seen in some time. The only good lawyers I know are the babies that would have been lawyers that I have already kicked. I think that makes sense. Oh well. Baby noggins are malleable enough to not require boots. I go barefooted when I'ma baby kickin'! The feeling of direct foot to noggin contact is hard to beat, IMO, and bare skin allows the mung to wash off pretty easily. Give it a go. You may enjoy it. I will second the sentiment that that thing was pretty damned disturbing. If I were to kick that monstrosity I'd be sure to don a pair of thick boots. As an aside, I sure wish there was a "punt" emoticon. I really wanted to use one in this thread for some reason...
Kursk 04-25-08, 12:20 PM	As an aside, I sure wish there was a "punt" emoticon. I really wanted to use one in this thread for some reason... http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/774_smiley_getting_kicked_in_the_balls.g if
Zombie_Babies 04-25-08, 12:23 PM	http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/774_smiley_getting_kicked_in_the_balls.g if Oh happy day!
ORC_Sinister 04-25-08, 12:42 PM	Remember to stay on topic folks!
Keyes2k4 04-25-08, 12:58 PM	In the defense of the WoW crowd I would like to say that the creators of World of Warcraft likely all played D&D well before they even started working on WoW. Lets look at the similarities: World of Warcraft is based in a fantasy realm consisting of at least 2 planes (azeroth and outlands). Most of the classes in WoW mirror the base classes of D&D, Rogue, Fighter, Mage (wizard or sorcerer), Paladin, Priest (cleric), hunter (ranger), Warlock (not base class but you should see the point), druid, and shaman (barbarian lore, cleric healing) Most of the races in the warcraft universe exist somewhere in D&D.. in fact there are so many similarities between WoW and a campaign setting that there is even a line of D20 books dedicated to the warcraft campaign setting, and evidently there are books for the World of Warcraft campaign setting. I've been playing since WoW came out in 2004, and I kept playing it because it is a good game, despite what everyone thinks about it due to its addictive qualities. If WotC thinks that they can emulate the addictiveness of WoW in a tabletop RPG, I wish them good luck. But I don't want to keep playing WoW even on my days off of the game, so I'll stick to 3.5 kthxbye. Then again, the core books aren't out, so I'll just My point? WoW was like D&D before D&D started to become like WoW.
Kursk 04-25-08, 01:02 PM	Remember to stay on topic folks! :bow:
Zombie_Babies 04-25-08, 01:18 PM	Remember to stay on topic folks! Topic schmopic. Let's talk about kickin' babi..... what the?..... Run! Sin's got a gun! ;) Ok. Back to the topic. I think the reason that the books are more fluff now was actually an attempt to not rip us off. With the new edition coming, the idea was to make the new books usable for groups that will continue with 3.5 and those that are moving on. Fluff can be used in any edition so it makes sense that things written for publication during the transition would be fluffier for this reason. Some may say that the books are 3.5 and therefore should be geared solely for use with 3.5, but marketing sense dictates that the books appeal to a broader crowd. In reality, it's not that big of a deal. Especially when you consider that soon there will be no new 3.5 stuff at all.
The ShapeLess One 04-26-08, 02:29 AM	Seriously, will you please stop overgeneralizing us? I'd make nasty generalizations about you, but that would be both petty of me, and include both me and many of the people I game with, most of whom play both WoW and Dungeons and Dragons. I'm sorry I will try to stop in the future. Just for future note, you are welcome to say any sort of thing about me if you wish. I do not care about such things.:)
jasonaburton 05-18-08, 04:39 PM	Hi, I am completely new to this forum, and have enjoyed your rants. Question! I might seem like an idiot for asking this, but what is "fluff" and "crunch"??
Seeker95 05-18-08, 05:38 PM	Fluff = rules without game mechanics (e.g., backstory, eye color) Crunch = rules with game mechanics (skills, feats, stats, special abilities).
celestialkin 05-18-08, 06:35 PM	Anyone else makes a dumb-ass comment about a 4e/WoW connection and I'm going to kick a baby in the face. :nonono: Were you referring to me. o.o