Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rkr1970 10-02-05, 02:31 AM	Ever since 1st Edition, there have been rules (often very sketchy) regarding NPCs in the party. I would like to see a book dedicated to THE REST OF THE PARTY. Henchmen, hirelings, cohorts, followers, intelligent magical items, animal companions, familiars, and even mounts! The first part of the book, "NPCs & You", should handle things like how players are percieved by potential employees or allies, what function NPCs might play in the party, and what certain levels of loyalty would entail ("The half-orc porter likes you so he won't kill you while you sleep, but you might find 5% of the treasure missing when you go to count it again"). Our second chapter, "Employees", would be dedicated to all the various "people" who are assossiated with the party for pay, from porters who travel into the dungeon to cart out the dragon's horde, to the treasure agent who stays in town and tries to find buyers for the party's more exotic finds. Hiring a groom/farrier and a few men-at-arms to stay with the horses a quarter mile from the dungeon sure beats the heck out of tying the horses up at the dungeon entrance for the 2 or 3 days the party is down there, but the current rules don't go into a lot of detail about cost, ease of finding such employees, their ability (or lack there of) to perform certain tasks, or even what quality of employees are available in a farm community as opposed to a city. The next part, "Allies", should focus on those "people" who travel with the party for either a share of the treasure or out of a sense of friendship (or duty, or respect, or admiration, or whatever). Be it a pixie who has decided to follow a character (and sometimes aid him in battle) because she finds him a perfect victim for her practical jokes, or a novice adventurer who tags along to see his hero in action and maybe even drop an orc or two himself, these people accompany the party wherever they may go. In addition to descriptions of what kind of people would do this and why, it should tell what cut of the treasure and XP these folks would receive. Our fourth section, "Underlings", would detail how the followers of a party member are attracted, what they do for the character they follow, and what they expect in return. In addition to the generic follower, there would be information about taking on apprentices, as well as what roles followers or apprentices might play in a campaign. Can a 0-level apprentice of a 7th level wizard scribe scrolls while his mentor is busy with an adventure? Do followers accompany the party into the wilds or are they mere hangers-on looking for a bit of fame to rub off on them? After that, we get to "Intelligent Influences". It doen't matter if a party member has been possesed or if that sword the ranger just grabbed has a 22 Ego, the party is being influenced by an intellect not their own. Some detail here about DMs "controlling" a PC with the player's help would fit well here. I'd also like to see a more thorough description of an item's communication skills and how they are perceived by the character. Chapter six, "Animals in the Party", sets up some hard and fast rules about expanding the lists of possible familiars, animal companions, and mounts. Something on the order of "A familiar must be at least 1, and no more than 3, size categories smaller than its master. At first level, a character may only choose an animal as a familiar.", or "Druids with racial hit dice may add those HD to their level when figuring adjusted level for more powerful companions. This would allow, for example, a cloud giant druid to take an animal companion that is commensurate with his size and combat ability, such as a roc, at a lower class level." Additional information on training, riding, and fighting from a mount, especially exotic mounts, would round out this section nicely. The obligitory "Supplemental Rules" comes next. New feats, spells, uses for skills, equipment, etc. Nothing unexpected here. Finally, the book would need a "Bestiary", mostly for animals, but also for improved familiars and magical mounts. At least 100 (preferably a whole lot more) animals, regardless of size or combat ability. Game animals, domestic animals, dire animals, whatever (A template or formula for dire creatures and war mounts would be very nice here). Each listing should tell a bit more than the standard MM writeup. It should show what benefit, if any, an animal offers as a familiar, what the adjusted druid level would be as an animal companion, and what carrying capacity suitable (or at least possible) mounts can handle. This would open up worlds of possibilities to players, such as a gnome paladin who rides a dire rabbit, or a wizard who takes an armadillo as a familiar because of the -5% to arcane spell failure chance from armor, or even the druid who lives on a mountain top so has a war ram as his companion. I think this book would offer players more choices, the party more diversity, and the DM more insight into the personalities of certain NPCs. What do you think? Please let me know!
Golem1972 10-02-05, 02:55 AM	This really does sound like a great idea. It's like one of those support books from AD&D. You've come up with a bunch of good ideas, have you considered roughing out a book yourself?
pangalactic 10-02-05, 03:14 AM	*applause* That's definitely a book I would use pretty extensively. You've come up with some great ideas there.
FlameLover 10-02-05, 03:45 AM	Love the idea, but here is how i would seperate the book: Introduction This section would just discuss why the book exists, what's in it, what it supercedes, etc. The Non-Player Character This would talk about generally how NPCs work, expanding on the stuff in the DMG. It would also categorize NPCs into various groups like Allies (equal or higher level, payed or unpayed), Employees (equal or lesser level, payed), Underlings (lesser level, unpayed), Companions (animal companions, familiars, special mounts, etc.) and "Other" for things like Intelligent magic items and stuff. This would give you the details that apply to ALL NPCs. Allies This section would deal with NPCs of equal or higher level. It would discuss pay, motives, equipment and provisions, etc. It would also cover betrayl and double-crossings, how these people expect to be included in the treasure divy, etc. Employees & Underlings These two are similar enough to be put in the same chapter. This would discuss how one should deal with helper NPCs, motives, pay, and all of that sort of stuff. Also would cover what people might do if you displease them... EDIT: Oh and this would also include rules for dealing with organizations, making contracts and all that sort of stuff. This would tie-in with SBG quite nicely actually. Companions This would cover animal companions, familiars, special mounts and other such things giving more options for these creatures (in the form of substatution levels, feats, etc.) and would also deal with loyalty, etc. Suplemental Rules This section would include PrCs aimed at dealing with the various types of NPCs discussed earlier in the book, expanded NPC classes and NPC-only feats maybe, and feats for dealing with NPCs (like maybe an Improved Leadership feat for example). It would also include new equipment, spells and magic items (including expanded rules for intelligent items). Bestiary This would include various races and monsters that could serve as companions or even hirelings, etc. Also maybe some monster-foccused feats and stuff. The supplemental rules section could be expanded into 5 seperate chapters though (Classes, Feats, PrCs, Equipment, Spells & Magic Items) but i think it only needs 1. The focus of the book should be on rules for NPCs, not more player options. But i love the idea, and i agree with Golem: you should have a crack at it yourself!
The Morninglord 10-02-05, 06:50 AM	I too support this idea.
The Forgotten Traveler 10-02-05, 07:34 AM	Very nice idea. I'd buy it.
FlameLover 10-02-05, 07:50 AM	You know rkr if you want to try writing this i'd certainly help you out. I don't have any experience making e-books or anything though, but everyone has to start somewhere :D
rkr1970 10-02-05, 09:12 AM	I hadn't thought of doing it myself, but... Hmmm.... I may have to look into that, eh? :lightbulb
Funes the Memorious 10-02-05, 10:35 AM	It is a cool idea. I'd love to read something like that.
laxrulz7 10-02-05, 10:46 AM	excellent idea... The Complete Everyone Else ;)
Wyrd Bearer 10-02-05, 10:50 AM	Chapter six, "Animals in the Party", sets up some hard and fast rules about expanding the lists of possible familiars, animal companions, and mounts. Something on the order of "A familiar must be at least 1, and no more than 3, size categories smaller than its master. At first level, a character may only choose an animal as a familiar.", or "Druids with racial hit dice may add those HD to their level when figuring adjusted level for more powerful companions. This would allow, for example, a cloud giant druid to take an animal companion that is commensurate with his size and combat ability, such as a roc, at a lower class level." Additional information on training, riding, and fighting from a mount, especially exotic mounts, would round out this section nicely.... ....Finally, the book would need a "Bestiary", mostly for animals, but also for improved familiars and magical mounts. At least 100 (preferably a whole lot more) animals, regardless of size or combat ability. Game animals, domestic animals, dire animals, whatever (A template or formula for dire creatures and war mounts would be very nice here). Each listing should tell a bit more than the standard MM writeup. It should show what benefit, if any, an animal offers as a familiar, what the adjusted druid level would be as an animal companion, and what carrying capacity suitable (or at least possible) mounts can handle. This would open up worlds of possibilities to players, such as a gnome paladin who rides a dire rabbit, or a wizard who takes an armadillo as a familiar because of the -5% to arcane spell failure chance from armor, or even the druid who lives on a mountain top so has a war ram as his companion. See, while that would be nice, they could have just included the relevant information in the various Complete books and I would have been content. The only reason that I might buy a book such as what you're suggesting is for the improved familairs and animal companions. Even still, I really would have no interest in this book as it would just add rules that would slow the game down considerably. A clever DM could just improvise the orc-porter stealing money on the spot and with the player's help, figure out how each particular intelligent item thinks and reacts. This book would end up being just a superfluous suppliment (and yes, I do realize the irony of that statement, but it would be even more so with such a book).
JBW 10-02-05, 11:55 AM	I do fully support the idea, but I'm not sure it would sell well as a WotC book. Unlike AD&D 1E, most parties don't include henchmen (now cohorts) and allies are now frowned upon (seen as the doorway to the DMPC). Quite often, a party just has the 4 (or so) members and perhaps a familiar or animal companion. Jay PS - The WHFRP2 has information for hirelings in their Old World Armoury, and I find it pretty interesting. Much of it is rules-light, so you can easily transition it over to other games, but it might not work for D&D d/t the vastly different world views et economy differences. In many ways, D&D is too 'modern' and 'politically correct' to fully utilize the flavor material from WHFRP2 suppliments.
The Nexus 10-02-05, 03:11 PM	I have had a problem dealing with that situation for the over 25 years of DMing. Oh sure I have done all that stuff myself but I can just see how much time I would have to do the more involved stratagy and a bit less tacticts.
MysteryGilgamesh 10-02-05, 06:14 PM	What would they call such a book? The Complete Book Of People No One Cares About? The Complete Book Of Hey Lets Convince Our Luggage Boy To Taunt That Great Red Wyrm? The Complete Book Of Oh Wait We Already Did This In Arms And Armor? The Complete Guide To Giving Your PC's 50 People To Keep Track Of And Slow The Game Down With?
Taeldrin Laesrash 10-02-05, 06:35 PM	This a pretty good idea, but probably not enough to constitue a book. Maybe you should ask Dragon Magazine for such an article.
rkr1970 10-02-05, 07:02 PM	What would they call such a book? The Complete Book Of People No One Cares About? The Complete Book Of Hey Lets Convince Our Luggage Boy To Taunt That Great Red Wyrm? The Complete Book Of Oh Wait We Already Did This In Arms And Armor? The Complete Guide To Giving Your PC's 50 People To Keep Track Of And Slow The Game Down With? How about The Henchman Handbook, or The Companion Compendium, or Complete NPC? As far as Arms & Armor, that's not a WotC book, is it? I though Bastion Press made that... I think you mean A&EG, and they sort of touched on a small aspect of it. What I am proposing is more comprehensive. BTW, after jotting down a few notes for the possibility of doing this myself, I am over 250 animals... Nothing mythical except the roc and a couple of dire criters... Yikes!!! Then I started looking around. Noone has come out with a book just about animals! If Wizard's doesn't show interest in this idea, I may have to see who would publish such an e-book!
FlameLover 10-02-05, 07:23 PM	Now i can't speak for rkr here but i would focus on making the rules as light and simple as possible. I found the enviroment rules way too heavy for my own tastes for example and have cut them down considerably so that they run smoother. If i were to make this book i would focus on things that don't require extra die rolls or calculations. I'd focus on just giving people more options for the "hired and un-hired help" and would include better rules for PC/NPC relations and all that sorta stuff. So while i would proabably have some % tables for what a disgruntled helper might do i would aim to make the system as simple as possible. Infact i'd proabably just make it each worker as a "satisfaction level" that can be positive or negative. It'd just be the more extra you pay them and the better you treat them then they might even do extra nice stuff, if you don't pay them much or put them at risk without enough pay etc. you might find your secrets snitched to the local garison, etc. But to flesh out the book i'd also include better rules for dealing with merchants, the town guard, nobles, etc. and would just make some simple rules to determine hospitality. But yeah, that's just what i would do. But i totally agree, the less die rolling the better. EDIT: Not sure on a book about just animals but a book all about NPCs could easily fill 160 pages (the size of a Complete book). I think rkr is hitning at making a Complete Wild or soemthing but i think that animals can be plenty subsumed into this book. I'm thinking of changing the categories though to 4, those of equal or higher level, those of lesser level, non-humanoid and "Dumb" creatures and intelligent items, etc. I think expanding rules for things like Diplomacy and Handle Animal would be good too. But yeah, there is plenty for a book all about NPCs. PLENTY.
rkr1970 10-03-05, 02:50 AM	The more I think about a book of animals, or even including a decent sized list of them in a book, it occurs to me that it will either be too large to be practical, or it won't have enough diversity for most people. There has to be a way to include huge numbers of animals in a reasonable amount of space. I came up with the idea that a single monster entry could suffice for several similar animals. You wouldn't need separate entries for cardinals, doves, and blue jays, for example, so you could lump them together as Song Birds. A listing for Wild Cattle could have a broad range under advancement, but a note in the description would let folks know that a wildebeest is x to x+3 HD where as a water buffalo is y to y+2 HD and a yak might have z to z+4 HD. The general attributes, weaponry, and damage potential are all quite similar. This way only 30 or 40 stat blocks would be needed to list several hundred animals. After the stats, a list of animals would offer more details on a particular animal. For example: Caribou: Uses Deer stats, HD from 3 to 6; carrying capacity, light up to 100 lbs, medium up to 200 lbs, heavy to 300 lbs, drag up to 1500 lbs Catbird: Uses Songbird stats; as a familiar, offers master a +3 to Bluff checks Cukoo: Uses Songbird stats; as a familiar, offers master a +3 to Perform checks Deer: Uses Deer stats, HD from 2 to 4 Dove: Uses Songbird stats; as familiar, offers master a +3 to Diplomacy checks Elk: Uses Deer stats, HD from 2 to 4; carrying capacity, light up to 150 lbs, medium up to 300 lbs, heavy to 450 lbs, drag up to 2250 lbs Moose: Uses Deer stats, HD from 2 to 4; carrying capacity, light up to 200 lbs, medium up to 400 lbs, heavy to 600 lbs, drag up to 3000 lbs Skunk: Uses Rodent stats, HD from 1/4 to 1/2; offers master a +3 to Intimidation checks; Special - Musk (Ex): The skunk is renowned for its primary means of defense: spraying a foul-smelling musk at its enemies. This musk requires the skunk to make a successful ranged touch attack at a target within 10 feet. Success means the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 14) or be nauseated for 1d4 rounds. A skunk familiar's master is immune to the musk attacks of all skunks. Only one target can be affected by the musk, and it can only be used once per day. If there's something not on the list, like say a wapiti (second largest member, after the moose, of the deer family), a DM or player should still be able to find something close enough to work. What do all of you think? Would this be a good format for listing half a thousand critters? Or would it be too confusing?
PoeticJustice 10-03-05, 04:32 PM	Those are totally awesome, especially the dove and the skunk. Take the RPG design test (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20050930b) because the world needs you.
Wyrd Bearer 10-03-05, 08:33 PM	What would they call such a book? The Complete Book Of People No One Cares About? The Complete Book Of Hey Lets Convince Our Luggage Boy To Taunt That Great Red Wyrm? The Complete Book Of Oh Wait We Already Did This In Arms And Armor? The Complete Guide To Giving Your PC's 50 People To Keep Track Of And Slow The Game Down With?*snerk* Hah, that's the truth. I don't want a book giving me statistics for what I can just roleplay in a few seconds with my party.
FlameLover 10-03-05, 08:49 PM	The more I think about a book of animals, or even including a decent sized list of them in a book, it occurs to me that it will either be too large to be practical, or it won't have enough diversity for most people. There has to be a way to include huge numbers of animals in a reasonable amount of space. I came up with the idea that a single monster entry could suffice for several similar animals. You wouldn't need separate entries for cardinals, doves, and blue jays, for example, so you could lump them together as Song Birds. A listing for Wild Cattle could have a broad range under advancement, but a note in the description would let folks know that a wildebeest is x to x+3 HD where as a water buffalo is y to y+2 HD and a yak might have z to z+4 HD. The general attributes, weaponry, and damage potential are all quite similar. This way only 30 or 40 stat blocks would be needed to list several hundred animals. After the stats, a list of animals would offer more details on a particular animal. For example: Yeah, that's like an Advanced version of what i was thinking. Have the basic stats say "Small Birds" then just have little lists of adjustments for various iconic animals (like Doves). That way you save space and things are kept simple. But the problem here is that i see two different books. I see a "Complete Wild" book aimed at Druids, Rangers and Barbarians and i see a "Complete NPC" book which could have lots of animal stats but definaltey no more than 50 pages worth. I'd help work on either but i think you needm to pick on or the other... :|
Draco Strang 10-04-05, 01:18 AM	I'm a mindless WOTC slave, so I'd probably buy it. Such a book sounds really cool, but would there be enough material that was both relevant and streamlined enough to not bog down the game? The last thing we need is rules for something that you can roleplay. However, if there was tons of *****in' fluff and artwork, I just might shell out.
weasel fierce 10-04-05, 01:28 AM	Does this really need a big, hardcover book ? The DMG presumably already covers roleplay hints and advise on how to incorporate NPC's well, into the game, and the rules for making a character are already in the Players handbook. A few good articles couldn't hurt though, but if they put out a whole book, it'd be to sell more crunch, like "henchman only prestige classes" or "hireling templates"
KJW 10-04-05, 03:16 AM	Try for an article in Dragon. I like the concept for a book, but NPCs and the like are used very differently by DMs and players, to make a book to please enough to make the book sell well would be difficult. Still it is a very interesting idea.