A call for PROPER proofreading at WotC [Archive] - Wizards Community

A call for PROPER proofreading at WotC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
murte
01-29-05, 08:20 AM Come on guys, a FAQ is printed material too. This last version contradicts itself so much it has rendered itself useless.

Examples:

When my sorcerer shapechanges into the form of a
creature with special attacks, what Hit Dice do I use to
calculate the DC of those abilities—the creature’s normal
HD, my caster level, or something else?

When you use shapechange (or related magic) to assume
another creature’s form, your Hit Dice are considered to be the
same as your normal Hit Dice.
For example, an 18th-level human sorcerer shapechanged
into a dire bear would be treated as a 12-HD creature (and not
an 18-HD creature) for the purpose of determining what effect
an evil cleric's blasphemy spell might have upon him. A 17th level
elf wizard shapechanged into a horned devil would use
the horned devil's 15 HD (rather than his own 17 HD) to
determine the save DC of his fear aura, stun, and infernal
wound supernatural attacks.
This has no effect on your hit points or any other statistics
derived from your HD, such as base attack bonus, base save
bonuses, and so on.

Which is it? Do HD remain unaffected or are they affected?

How many Hit Dice does my 1st-level pixie rogue have?
What would his effective character level be?
Unless noted otherwise, all 1-HD creatures (other than 1-
HD humanoids) lose their racial HD when they gain class
levels. Thus, your pixie would have 1 Hit Dice: one from his
race, and one from his class level.

I hope whoever wrote this has no connections to your accounting department. (1HD + 1HD = 1HD?)

"Hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks." ...and... "Hardness applies to force attacks."

"Acid, sonic, and force attacks ignore hardness. Hardness applies to cold, electricity, and fire attacks."

Since the second quote happens near the end of the FAQ, I guess it still trumps the first quote, in which case the rule is the same as it was in the original books. (BTW, it makes no sense what-so-ever to have hardness apply to acid, sonic, or force due to the specific qualities of each of these types of energy.)

Proofreading is more than merely checking grammer, spelling, and punctuation. It also includes making sure what has been written makes sense within its context.
Draco Strang
01-29-05, 08:23 AM Wow....you totally caught that FAQ author with his pants down. I think you're right, a little more proofing is in order.

To be fair though, maybe english isn't his first language, and word order gets mixed up? There's always some extenuating circumstances that could lead to something like that slipping through. Let's not condemn them for morons just yet or anything
shakedown47
01-29-05, 09:29 AM I agree with your view on the hardness and pixie HD quotes, but the first one seems reasonable to me. I'm not familiar with the rules for such things, and I don't have my books in front of me, but the writer hasn't contradicted himself in the quote you gave us, because he is discussing two different situations, not the same situation two different ways. In the first, he is describing the character being affected by a spell. In the second, he is describing the shape-changed character's special abilities for that shape.
murte
01-29-05, 11:54 AM Both examples contradict the first sentence.
When you use shapechange (or related magic) to assume another creature’s form, your Hit Dice are considered to be the same as your normal Hit Dice.
Innomado
01-29-05, 12:24 PM Your right all of those examples contradict each other quite thoroughly. Has anyone tried finding an e-mail address for someone at WotC?
Board_Rider
01-29-05, 12:28 PM I don't know about this one Murte.....
I mean sure there are are contradictions and problems...but this is a free forum and the guy who answers these questions probably isn't a "D&D Helpdesk" guy.
I mean if you know what is right then who cares?

Now, having said that, I believe that the editing in published material should be edited in a better way. But hey I am no editor.
atheolos
01-29-05, 12:36 PM How much more per book would you be willing to pay for "proper editing"? I personally think the number of errors is acceptable, or close to it.

Although I have to admit the examples you quote are pretty outrageous.
murte
01-29-05, 12:42 PM [I mean if you know what is right then who cares?

ROFL, unfortunately I've been cursed with always knowing I'm right, but not everyone else realizes my omniscience. :rimshot:

Unfortunately any erratta, FAQ's or supplements to a published product is considered published material within the publishing industry. It is an extension of the product(s) and is in fact included into the cost of the material that we buy. Don't ever buy into the something is free stuff, it never is, just the cost has already been calculated in somewhere else.

Besides if we the customers start accepting mediocracy with their website material, how long will it be before it gets into their printed material... oops too late to stop it, we can just hope to suppress it now.
Board_Rider
01-29-05, 12:56 PM Yeah, I gotcha...
But when I pay for a book that is a front end cost where the afformentioned "included costs" is a backend cost. When I look at my account and see $35 gone from my account I feel that.

Look, this isn't a debate. You have your opinions and I have mine. When you log onto this webspace you just gotta take the good with the bad. Same with buying a WoTC book.
To be perfectly honest I could care less about editorial mistakes. The only time it is relevant is when I, or anyone I game with, can't discern the meaning of certain pieces of text. But I am not the popular consensus in this case. So, yeah, for $20-$35, the general consumer should have better editing. But, as I wrote earlier, I am NO editor or even an English major, so I have no idea what the job entails.

Oh, ROFL? Curious.
Draco Strang
01-29-05, 01:09 PM .Oh, ROFL? Curious.
*Rolls On Floor Laughing *

Boardrider, honestly now......get it in gear. :D

Why do I kid? Because I care. I kid because I care. Ya big lug.
Board_Rider
01-29-05, 01:13 PM *Rolls On Floor Laughing *
Boardrider, honestly now......get it in gear. :D
Why do I kid? Because I care. I kid because I care. Ya big lug.
Well this made ME ROFL....
the dog rolled with me too....strange.
I need to see the sun more......
Good times.
Thanks for caring.
atheolos
01-29-05, 01:40 PM When you use shapechange (or related magic) to assume
another creature’s form, your Hit Dice are considered to be the
same as your normal Hit Dice.

Is it possible that they mean dice size? (IE, your dice size is the same.) If so, that still doesn't make sense because of the possibility of numerous die sizes from multiclassing. I'd best not think about this for too long or I'll go crazy. As if I'm not already.
Seeker95
01-29-05, 02:18 PM I don't mean to put a damper on your parade, but the FAQ is correct.

Your Hit Dice remain your hit dice. Your hit points don't change (except when your Con changes). Your saving throws don't change (although your modifiers might). Your BAB doesn't change.

However, the normal hit dice for the creature is used to determine what can affect the creature, and how you can use the special attacks of the new form. You cannot use the new form's special attacks and abilities better than the creature itself could.
shakedown47
01-29-05, 03:09 PM I don't mean to put a damper on your parade, but the FAQ is correct.

Your Hit Dice remain your hit dice. Your hit points don't change (except when your Con changes). Your saving throws don't change (although your modifiers might). Your BAB doesn't change.

However, the normal hit dice for the creature is used to determine what can affect the creature, and how you can use the special attacks of the new form. You cannot use the new form's special attacks and abilities better than the creature itself could.

Exactly.
Meta_FR_DM
01-29-05, 03:27 PM However, the normal hit dice for the creature is used to determine what can affect the creature, and how you can use the special attacks of the new form. You cannot use the new form's special attacks and abilities better than the creature itself could. Note that this is precisely what is missing from the text.

Without it, the text is contradictory.
Seeker95
01-29-05, 04:09 PM Meta, it is not contradictory without it. Simply ambiguous.
Of course, ambiguity carries its own set of problems!
murte
01-29-05, 04:19 PM Boardie, I ain't debating, just ranting. There are plenty of worse editted d20 products out there.

Seeker, if your saving throws don't change then why do the effects of spells change according to your new HD? I have no problem with the abilities being determined by the base creature's HD, but why should a Holy Word work better on a 18th level caster shapechanged into a 15th HD creature. Saves don't change, HD don't change, but all of a sudden the caster is more susceptable to a lower level spell?

It is alot like saying York is exactly like New York except a few differrences. It might be true, but it doesn't make sense, and if one is writing a FAQ to clear up "gray" rules, one should be clear, not more "gray".
Seeker95
01-29-05, 05:06 PM Saves don't change, HD don't change, but all of a sudden the caster is more susceptable to a lower level spell?For the same reason that if you take a form with cold vulnerability, you are more vulnerable to cold. Your susceptibilities are related to the form.if one is writing a FAQ to clear up "gray" rules, one should be clear, not more "gray".No disagreement on this one. But there is a difference between "gray" and "wrong". I see most of the threads like this one using the latter, when the former is the reality.

As an aside, while proofreading is more than grammar and punctuation, it is NOT editing. With the rules written by so many different people, appearing in many different books, often at the same time with different release dates), contradictions and duplications are both going to happen with a certain degree of frequency.

One of the advantages of the Internet and Boards age is that we can share when we identify these things. One of the disavantages is that a large amount of this sharing is in the form of whining and cries to "burn the witch".

Sharing an observed typo, contradiction or error is one thing.
Adding value statements and insults to it is another entirely.
Vanigo
01-29-05, 10:00 PM For the same reason that if you take a form with cold vulnerability, you are more vulnerable to cold. Your susceptibilities are related to the form.
Sure, because we all know a 20th level wizard is a completely different species from a first level wizard. That's why sleep doesn't work on the higher level one.
Board_Rider
01-29-05, 11:03 PM COME ON STOP ATTACKING THE D AND D GUYS. THEY DO GREAT JOB MAKING A GOOD GAME. PRUFREADING IS A WASTE OF TIME CAUSE IF U PRUFREAD U PUT OUT LESS BOOKS THAT WAY AND THEN THERE IS LESS STUFF. I DONT CARE BOUT ALL THAT OTHER CRAP I JUST WANT MORE CLASSES AND MORE MONK STUFF.
I AM STILL W8N 4 THE COMPLEET MONK BUT I HEAR IT GOT DELAYED. N E 1 NO NETHING BOUT IT?

Well there is that..I guess. If I spelled like that, then I probably wouldn't care about proofreading either.
They need a Peanut Gallery filter on these boards.
Deekin, Kobold Bard
01-29-05, 11:21 PM I was reading the Draconomicon the other day, and dispite it's greatness I noticed at least four spelling errors. I suppose it'd be impossible to run a spellcheck with that many madeup words, but it should be pointed out by the grumpy.
atheolos
01-30-05, 02:38 AM But is it worth spending an extra 3$ per book to make "sure" those four errors don't make it in? You may feel free to disagree, but I don't think it's worth it.

I'm more bothered by obscene game material like the hulking hurler. Take that extra 3$ and spend it on more playtesting, please. I can mentally correct spelling errors. I can't just skip over broken PrC's.
Kalanth
01-30-05, 05:00 AM But is it worth spending an extra 3$ per book to make "sure" those four errors don't make it in? You may feel free to disagree, but I don't think it's worth it.

I'm more bothered by obscene game material like the hulking hurler. Take that extra 3$ and spend it on more playtesting, please. I can mentally correct spelling errors. I can't just skip over broken PrC's.

$3 is just that, $3. What else am I going to spend that on? A hamburger at McDonalds? Maybe. . . Actually that sounds good right about now. Anyways, not the point. I would rather pay a hair more to know its right the first time, or have the errata put in after its found for future buyers (I don't buy everything right away, so if I come back later, maybe it would be nice to have a fixed edition on the shelf).
Seeker95
01-30-05, 08:36 AM I can't just skip over broken PrC's.I can! :D
murte
01-30-05, 09:33 AM Got to disagree with you Seeker, taking an immunity or vulnerablity is much different than changing your "essence", which is basically what we're talking about when it comes to spell effects vs. HD. We can just agree to disagree on that part, I won't be changing your game nor you mine.

In some publishing industries, they actually have Content Proofers. It is more than apparant the gaming industry is not one of them.

As far as four misspelled words, well within the margin of acceptability for over a 10K word book. (You would get about 10 "freebies".)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
murte 01-29-05, 08:20 AM	Come on guys, a FAQ is printed material too. This last version contradicts itself so much it has rendered itself useless. Examples: When my sorcerer shapechanges into the form of a creature with special attacks, what Hit Dice do I use to calculate the DC of those abilities—the creature’s normal HD, my caster level, or something else? When you use shapechange (or related magic) to assume another creature’s form, your Hit Dice are considered to be the same as your normal Hit Dice. For example, an 18th-level human sorcerer shapechanged into a dire bear would be treated as a 12-HD creature (and not an 18-HD creature) for the purpose of determining what effect an evil cleric's blasphemy spell might have upon him. A 17th level elf wizard shapechanged into a horned devil would use the horned devil's 15 HD (rather than his own 17 HD) to determine the save DC of his fear aura, stun, and infernal wound supernatural attacks. This has no effect on your hit points or any other statistics derived from your HD, such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and so on. Which is it? Do HD remain unaffected or are they affected? How many Hit Dice does my 1st-level pixie rogue have? What would his effective character level be? Unless noted otherwise, all 1-HD creatures (other than 1- HD humanoids) lose their racial HD when they gain class levels. Thus, your pixie would have 1 Hit Dice: one from his race, and one from his class level. I hope whoever wrote this has no connections to your accounting department. (1HD + 1HD = 1HD?) "Hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks." ...and... "Hardness applies to force attacks." "Acid, sonic, and force attacks ignore hardness. Hardness applies to cold, electricity, and fire attacks." Since the second quote happens near the end of the FAQ, I guess it still trumps the first quote, in which case the rule is the same as it was in the original books. (BTW, it makes no sense what-so-ever to have hardness apply to acid, sonic, or force due to the specific qualities of each of these types of energy.) Proofreading is more than merely checking grammer, spelling, and punctuation. It also includes making sure what has been written makes sense within its context.
Draco Strang 01-29-05, 08:23 AM	Wow....you totally caught that FAQ author with his pants down. I think you're right, a little more proofing is in order. To be fair though, maybe english isn't his first language, and word order gets mixed up? There's always some extenuating circumstances that could lead to something like that slipping through. Let's not condemn them for morons just yet or anything
shakedown47 01-29-05, 09:29 AM	I agree with your view on the hardness and pixie HD quotes, but the first one seems reasonable to me. I'm not familiar with the rules for such things, and I don't have my books in front of me, but the writer hasn't contradicted himself in the quote you gave us, because he is discussing two different situations, not the same situation two different ways. In the first, he is describing the character being affected by a spell. In the second, he is describing the shape-changed character's special abilities for that shape.
murte 01-29-05, 11:54 AM	Both examples contradict the first sentence. When you use shapechange (or related magic) to assume another creature’s form, your Hit Dice are considered to be the same as your normal Hit Dice.
Innomado 01-29-05, 12:24 PM	Your right all of those examples contradict each other quite thoroughly. Has anyone tried finding an e-mail address for someone at WotC?
Board_Rider 01-29-05, 12:28 PM	I don't know about this one Murte..... I mean sure there are are contradictions and problems...but this is a free forum and the guy who answers these questions probably isn't a "D&D Helpdesk" guy. I mean if you know what is right then who cares? Now, having said that, I believe that the editing in published material should be edited in a better way. But hey I am no editor.
atheolos 01-29-05, 12:36 PM	How much more per book would you be willing to pay for "proper editing"? I personally think the number of errors is acceptable, or close to it. Although I have to admit the examples you quote are pretty outrageous.
murte 01-29-05, 12:42 PM	[I mean if you know what is right then who cares? ROFL, unfortunately I've been cursed with always knowing I'm right, but not everyone else realizes my omniscience. :rimshot: Unfortunately any erratta, FAQ's or supplements to a published product is considered published material within the publishing industry. It is an extension of the product(s) and is in fact included into the cost of the material that we buy. Don't ever buy into the something is free stuff, it never is, just the cost has already been calculated in somewhere else. Besides if we the customers start accepting mediocracy with their website material, how long will it be before it gets into their printed material... oops too late to stop it, we can just hope to suppress it now.
Board_Rider 01-29-05, 12:56 PM	Yeah, I gotcha... But when I pay for a book that is a front end cost where the afformentioned "included costs" is a backend cost. When I look at my account and see $35 gone from my account I feel that. Look, this isn't a debate. You have your opinions and I have mine. When you log onto this webspace you just gotta take the good with the bad. Same with buying a WoTC book. To be perfectly honest I could care less about editorial mistakes. The only time it is relevant is when I, or anyone I game with, can't discern the meaning of certain pieces of text. But I am not the popular consensus in this case. So, yeah, for $20-$35, the general consumer should have better editing. But, as I wrote earlier, I am NO editor or even an English major, so I have no idea what the job entails. Oh, ROFL? Curious.
Draco Strang 01-29-05, 01:09 PM	.Oh, ROFL? Curious. Rolls On Floor Laughing Boardrider, honestly now......get it in gear. :D Why do I kid? Because I care. I kid because I care. Ya big lug.
Board_Rider 01-29-05, 01:13 PM	Rolls On Floor Laughing Boardrider, honestly now......get it in gear. :D Why do I kid? Because I care. I kid because I care. Ya big lug. Well this made ME ROFL.... the dog rolled with me too....strange. I need to see the sun more...... Good times. Thanks for caring.
atheolos 01-29-05, 01:40 PM	When you use shapechange (or related magic) to assume another creature’s form, your Hit Dice are considered to be the same as your normal Hit Dice. Is it possible that they mean dice size? (IE, your dice size is the same.) If so, that still doesn't make sense because of the possibility of numerous die sizes from multiclassing. I'd best not think about this for too long or I'll go crazy. As if I'm not already.
Seeker95 01-29-05, 02:18 PM	I don't mean to put a damper on your parade, but the FAQ is correct. Your Hit Dice remain your hit dice. Your hit points don't change (except when your Con changes). Your saving throws don't change (although your modifiers might). Your BAB doesn't change. However, the normal hit dice for the creature is used to determine what can affect the creature, and how you can use the special attacks of the new form. You cannot use the new form's special attacks and abilities better than the creature itself could.
shakedown47 01-29-05, 03:09 PM	I don't mean to put a damper on your parade, but the FAQ is correct. Your Hit Dice remain your hit dice. Your hit points don't change (except when your Con changes). Your saving throws don't change (although your modifiers might). Your BAB doesn't change. However, the normal hit dice for the creature is used to determine what can affect the creature, and how you can use the special attacks of the new form. You cannot use the new form's special attacks and abilities better than the creature itself could. Exactly.
Meta_FR_DM 01-29-05, 03:27 PM	However, the normal hit dice for the creature is used to determine what can affect the creature, and how you can use the special attacks of the new form. You cannot use the new form's special attacks and abilities better than the creature itself could. Note that this is precisely what is missing from the text. Without it, the text is contradictory.
Seeker95 01-29-05, 04:09 PM	Meta, it is not contradictory without it. Simply ambiguous. Of course, ambiguity carries its own set of problems!
murte 01-29-05, 04:19 PM	Boardie, I ain't debating, just ranting. There are plenty of worse editted d20 products out there. Seeker, if your saving throws don't change then why do the effects of spells change according to your new HD? I have no problem with the abilities being determined by the base creature's HD, but why should a Holy Word work better on a 18th level caster shapechanged into a 15th HD creature. Saves don't change, HD don't change, but all of a sudden the caster is more susceptable to a lower level spell? It is alot like saying York is exactly like New York except a few differrences. It might be true, but it doesn't make sense, and if one is writing a FAQ to clear up "gray" rules, one should be clear, not more "gray".
Seeker95 01-29-05, 05:06 PM	Saves don't change, HD don't change, but all of a sudden the caster is more susceptable to a lower level spell?For the same reason that if you take a form with cold vulnerability, you are more vulnerable to cold. Your susceptibilities are related to the form.if one is writing a FAQ to clear up "gray" rules, one should be clear, not more "gray".No disagreement on this one. But there is a difference between "gray" and "wrong". I see most of the threads like this one using the latter, when the former is the reality. As an aside, while proofreading is more than grammar and punctuation, it is NOT editing. With the rules written by so many different people, appearing in many different books, often at the same time with different release dates), contradictions and duplications are both going to happen with a certain degree of frequency. One of the advantages of the Internet and Boards age is that we can share when we identify these things. One of the disavantages is that a large amount of this sharing is in the form of whining and cries to "burn the witch". Sharing an observed typo, contradiction or error is one thing. Adding value statements and insults to it is another entirely.
Vanigo 01-29-05, 10:00 PM	For the same reason that if you take a form with cold vulnerability, you are more vulnerable to cold. Your susceptibilities are related to the form. Sure, because we all know a 20th level wizard is a completely different species from a first level wizard. That's why sleep doesn't work on the higher level one.
Board_Rider 01-29-05, 11:03 PM	COME ON STOP ATTACKING THE D AND D GUYS. THEY DO GREAT JOB MAKING A GOOD GAME. PRUFREADING IS A WASTE OF TIME CAUSE IF U PRUFREAD U PUT OUT LESS BOOKS THAT WAY AND THEN THERE IS LESS STUFF. I DONT CARE BOUT ALL THAT OTHER CRAP I JUST WANT MORE CLASSES AND MORE MONK STUFF. I AM STILL W8N 4 THE COMPLEET MONK BUT I HEAR IT GOT DELAYED. N E 1 NO NETHING BOUT IT? Well there is that..I guess. If I spelled like that, then I probably wouldn't care about proofreading either. They need a Peanut Gallery filter on these boards.
Deekin, Kobold Bard 01-29-05, 11:21 PM	I was reading the Draconomicon the other day, and dispite it's greatness I noticed at least four spelling errors. I suppose it'd be impossible to run a spellcheck with that many madeup words, but it should be pointed out by the grumpy.
atheolos 01-30-05, 02:38 AM	But is it worth spending an extra 3$ per book to make "sure" those four errors don't make it in? You may feel free to disagree, but I don't think it's worth it. I'm more bothered by obscene game material like the hulking hurler. Take that extra 3$ and spend it on more playtesting, please. I can mentally correct spelling errors. I can't just skip over broken PrC's.
Kalanth 01-30-05, 05:00 AM	But is it worth spending an extra 3$ per book to make "sure" those four errors don't make it in? You may feel free to disagree, but I don't think it's worth it. I'm more bothered by obscene game material like the hulking hurler. Take that extra 3$ and spend it on more playtesting, please. I can mentally correct spelling errors. I can't just skip over broken PrC's. $3 is just that, $3. What else am I going to spend that on? A hamburger at McDonalds? Maybe. . . Actually that sounds good right about now. Anyways, not the point. I would rather pay a hair more to know its right the first time, or have the errata put in after its found for future buyers (I don't buy everything right away, so if I come back later, maybe it would be nice to have a fixed edition on the shelf).
Seeker95 01-30-05, 08:36 AM	I can't just skip over broken PrC's.I can! :D
murte 01-30-05, 09:33 AM	Got to disagree with you Seeker, taking an immunity or vulnerablity is much different than changing your "essence", which is basically what we're talking about when it comes to spell effects vs. HD. We can just agree to disagree on that part, I won't be changing your game nor you mine. In some publishing industries, they actually have Content Proofers. It is more than apparant the gaming industry is not one of them. As far as four misspelled words, well within the margin of acceptability for over a 10K word book. (You would get about 10 "freebies".)