A couple terms I don't understand... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A couple terms I don't understand... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Voldar_Mecorthio
06-09-06, 12:37 PM Okay, there are a few terms used on these forems that I don't understand. If anyone knows what they mean, please tell me.

Deux es Machina- That's latin for "God in the Machine", yet people use it with dms. :confused: Obviously has another meaning, but I dont know what it is.

Min/Maxing- no clue what this means.

BBEG- means the big enemy of an adventure or campaign, but what do the letters stand for? (It's obviously an acronim)

That's all. If you know what they mean please tell me! :D
Tomi Shadows
06-09-06, 12:45 PM Deux es Machina- No idea...

Min/Maxing- This means constructing your character to be as good as rules allow (Maxing), or making something as weak as you can to play with.(Min)

BBEG- I believe it is Big Bad Evil Guy.
Cthulhu3125
06-09-06, 12:51 PM Same usage as normal:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/deus+ex+machina
Voldar_Mecorthio
06-09-06, 01:01 PM Allright, thanks!

As for Deux Ex Machina, the use was something to get players back on track, aka railroading.
Shaggy_Shaggs
06-09-06, 01:12 PM Tomi Shadows isn't using the typical meaning for min/max. He seems to imply max means powergaming and min means gimping.

Min/maxing means minimizing weaknesses and maximizing strengths. There are quite a few people around that'll talk about it like it's a bad thing, these people are misguided. Everybody min/maxes to one degree or another.

Ever played a warrior class with higher scores in Str and/or Con than the mental scores? That'd be min/maxing. Wizard with high enough Intelligence to cast spells and enough Dex and Con to avoid dying in combat, when a an extremely strong, wise, charismatic wizard might've been more interesting? Min/maxing.

Min/maxing can be taken far enough to seem unfair, but I highly doubt any of the purists actually avoid it. If you've ever intentionally done to intentionally improve a character, rather than just randomly assigning everything and/or intentionally gimping the character, you've min/maxed at least a little.
TotemWarrior
06-09-06, 01:35 PM The term Deux ex Machina comes from certain greek plays where, near the end of the play, an actor portraying one of the gods was lowered to the stage (via ropes and pulleys, the "machine") to wave his hands and use his godlike powers to fix whatever had gone wrong in the story.

Modern usage as far as D&D goes is similar, in that the DM can use rule 0 to simply wave away problems with the campaign. It's jarring in the context of the game, and is, as stated above, generally considered a form of railroading.

Edit: Typos
scienceman47
06-09-06, 02:20 PM Deus ex machina example. This happened in a campain I saw.

A DM wanted a PC to go to X town. Earlier a NPC said he should go to this town, but the PC wanted to go elsewhere. So later he says "A letter falls next to you". Mind you, this occurs in the middle of the wilderness, and no explanation is given. It was gonna say "go to this town", but the PC sees whats coming and ignores it. Finally the DM kills the character, and ressurects him, IN THAT TOWN. The PC had no choice in the matter.

Another version involves DM pets, characters of the DM's making that often gain immortality and other benefits because the DM has a fondness for them. You will encounter a situation where your PC's cannot save themselves, they encounter a monster thats way too powerful, or get stuck somewhere that they cant get out of, like a prison or cave in. Bam, DM's pet swoops in to save the day. He makes his own creation feel powerful at the expense of every PC at the table. This is closer to the original definition.

Also note that MinMaxing is different from Munchkining. To munchkin is to search out flaws in rules, and abuse them to gain an unfair amount of power. The reason I say this is that many people get the two terms confused, and fair players will be unfairly assaulted for favoring a more mechanically focused character. Notice how defensive shaggy is, its because he probably taken a beating on the boards, probably caused by confusion about the above words.
Darkuwa
06-09-06, 03:44 PM Deus ex machina example. This happened in a campain I saw.

A DM wanted a PC to go to X town. Earlier a NPC said he should go to this town, but the PC wanted to go elsewhere. So later he says "A letter falls next to you". Mind you, this occurs in the middle of the wilderness, and no explanation is given. It was gonna say "go to this town", but the PC sees whats coming and ignores it. Finally the DM kills the character, and ressurects him, IN THAT TOWN. The PC had no choice in the matter.

Another version involves DM pets, characters of the DM's making that often gain immortality and other benefits because the DM has a fondness for them. You will encounter a situation where your PC's cannot save themselves, they encounter a monster thats way too powerful, or get stuck somewhere that they cant get out of, like a prison or cave in. Bam, DM's pet swoops in to save the day. He makes his own creation feel powerful at the expense of every PC at the table. This is closer to the original definition.

First one is Railroading. Second one is Deus ex Machina. They are not the same thing.
Malruhn
06-10-06, 01:49 AM Shaggy is mostly correct on his correction of "min/max", however in the cases where it is considered "bad" or used as a term of derision, are for the people that end up with cookie-cutter characters that all end up the same - to HECK with the role-playing possibilities.

Back some 25 years ago, we called them "Xerox characters". When your character died, just pull out a photocopy of the sheet, fill in a new name and keep playing!! There really weren't any differences between them other than name.

Min/Maxing is seen as icky-bad by some, but Shaggs is right in that we all do it to an extent. Where the term becomes a "curse word" is for the folks that don't give a hoot about individuality, they just min/max that character concept to squeeze out every last ounce of to hit/damage/power from the piece of paper... and that is all they have, just a piece of paper that is just like the last piece of paper with a new name.

Most of us don't mind when a player min/maxes a character - but the next time the player rolls up a character, it had BETTER be different than the last!!
__________________________

Another good example of Deus ex Machina is when the giant eagles swooped in to rescue Frodo and Sam in Lord of the Rings. They weren't mentioned elsewhere... but, suddenly, *POOF* there they were to save the day... then they went away.
scienceman47
06-10-06, 01:53 AM First one is Railroading. Second one is Deus ex Machina. They are not the same thing.

Thank you, though I was grasping at what is sometimes called deus ex machina, and what I understood to actually be dues ex machina. That is, what is sometimes called deus ex machina isnt, but perhaps I was spreading false information, however well intended. In any case once again thank you for the clarification.

So... I think we are finished with the current thread. If there is anything else, I would be glad to help.
scienceman47
06-10-06, 02:19 AM Another good example of Deus ex Machina is when the giant eagles swooped in to rescue Frodo and Sam in Lord of the Rings. They weren't mentioned elsewhere... but, suddenly, *POOF* there they were to save the day... then they went away.

As per the min-maxing, that's very true. Identical stats are less than desirable. But there are those who believe that taking a suboptimal skill, Profession the greatest offender, or a uncharacteristically low stat in a class reliant on said stat eg.(8 strength as a barb, 10 Dex and 10 int as a rogue), as ideal role-playing. That is, by sacrificing precious skill points and other such, they achieve greater role-play potential by forsaking the sacred cow of effectiveness. If there was a character with genuine 8 strength in a barbarian tribe, he would have left, or taken up another profession.
zae
06-10-06, 03:14 AM "he would have left, or taken up another profession."

Exactly. You'd have to be rather stupid to stick with a job where you're useless. If I wasn't good with numbers and at searching for things, I would switch to a different job. People do what they're good at. The case where it becomes a problem is when a player makes themself good at everything so that everyone else is redundant, or when they make themself able to defeat the rest of the party combined, and use that to bully the rest around.

Another way to think of it is this. Did you ever read that serious, heroic fantasy novel about the hero who went to slay a dragon with arcane might, except he was clumsy and bad at magic? Neither did I, because it wouldn't be written: he would have died long before the dragon ever came into the picture.
MADGator
06-10-06, 04:23 AM Another way to think of it is this. Did you ever read that serious, heroic fantasy novel about the hero who went to slay a dragon with arcane might, except he was clumsy and bad at magic? Neither did I, because it wouldn't be written: he would have died long before the dragon ever came into the picture.

Nah, he probably would have just CLAIMED to have slain a dragon, gotten a book deal, done the tavern circuit, sued for libel over the stories printed about him in those cheap scrolls they sell at the general store, dated a wealthy and popular heiress who has no apparent talent, gotten hooked on fairy dust, gone into rehab, sold a book written about that done by a ghost writer.... You know, the usualycelebtrity stuff.
Tomi Shadows
06-10-06, 12:19 PM Tomi Shadows isn't using the typical meaning for min/max. He seems to imply max means powergaming and min means gimping.

Min/maxing means minimizing weaknesses and maximizing strengths. There are quite a few people around that'll talk about it like it's a bad thing, these people are misguided. Everybody min/maxes to one degree or another.

Ever played a warrior class with higher scores in Str and/or Con than the mental scores? That'd be min/maxing. Wizard with high enough Intelligence to cast spells and enough Dex and Con to avoid dying in combat, when a an extremely strong, wise, charismatic wizard might've been more interesting? Min/maxing.

Min/maxing can be taken far enough to seem unfair, but I highly doubt any of the purists actually avoid it. If you've ever intentionally done to intentionally improve a character, rather than just randomly assigning everything and/or intentionally gimping the character, you've min/maxed at least a little.
Thanks for correcting me. I guess I was a little confused too.
offcenterideas
06-10-06, 10:50 PM Different gaming system, but the perfect example of MinMaxing gone WAY too far was in a SciFi GURPS game I was in a while back. The party was a highly sucessful surgeon (me), a cyborg thug from the streets, and a brain in a jar that was rediculously intellegent and rich (minmaxer).

This brain invented robots to act for him through wireless mental control from any distance that could tear buildings apart barehanded, had missile bays in its back, and had a built in med center controlled by robots (who were better at it than me) :weep: . He had 5 or 6 of them... and this was on top of the dozens of other robots he controlled and his gigantic starship. Completely legit by the rules.

The campaign lasted two sessions before we all realized how pointless the other characters were.
Nom
06-10-06, 11:14 PM When the term Min/Max is used as a (legitimate?) criticism it usually implies someone who "dumps" certain aspects of their character in a headlong pursuit of power, no matter how aesthetically unsatisfying this may be. The stereotypical example being someone who convinces their DM to let them put 3 in Cha and move it all to Str, on the assumption that they will never need Cha anyway. Not as a character concept, but purely in an attempt to give themselves an uber-awesome melee attack.
BeregondoftheGuard
06-10-06, 11:32 PM Deus ex Machina is less of a railroading, IIRC, then a "random saving." It's when all the characters are in some fight and they're about to die, when suddenly an army or random epic-hero suddenly steps in, out of nowhere, for no reason, and saves them all. There is are a few very good (or very bad, as the case may be) examples of this in literature and film that I could name, but as most occur as endings I'll refrain in case you haven't read/seen them yet. If you do, I think you'll understand what I mean.
Sulaco
06-12-06, 11:04 AM Allright, thanks!

As for Deux Ex Machina, the use was something to get players back on track, aka railroading.

Not quite. Deus xe machina means "God from the machine." It is a term from classical Greek theatre and was common in plays at the time. Basically everything would go to hell and then, right at the end, a God would show up (the actor was literally raised or lowered onto stage with a machine, thus the term) who would fix everything with a wave of his hand.

The modern example is the Cavalry riding to the resuce in old westerns. It's when the characters are totally screwed and then comethign completely beyond their control saves their ass for no reason whatsover. It is very clichéd and highly unsatisfying.

No DM worth their dice should ever create a situation in which deus ex machnia is required to save the party or the game. If it happens then the DM screwed up big-time.
celtredleg
06-12-06, 11:31 AM I would rather let a TPK happen than bring in the cavalry. There is always a relative, or friend or somebody with a legit reason to have at least one person raised.

Much better than off the wall fixes.
Darkuwa
06-12-06, 01:33 PM The only good Dues ex in my opinion is a reveal of power not a gain of it. Like the bumbling wizard the party has been escorting reveals himself to be the greatest archmage. Obviously if you do this just because the party is screwed its bad, but if it was hinted at and its at a pivitol part in the story it can work well.
Pennarin
06-12-06, 01:44 PM Voldar, you can find definitions for all current lingo in trollbill's Dictionary of Terminology (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=46916), and you can fathom weird internet ac cronyms like IIRC and FYI by typing them in NetLingo (http://www.netlingo.com/), which has a search engine.
GypsyComet
06-13-06, 12:04 AM Different gaming system, but the perfect example of MinMaxing gone WAY too far was in a SciFi GURPS game I was in a while back.

Which is appropriate, because the term originated in the early 80's, as far as I recall, with the point-build systems like Hero (Champions) and GURPS: "MINimum points cost, MAXimum effect".

It probably migrated to D&D via the Options books in late 2nd Ed, and 3rd was sufficiently close in concept to keep the term useful ("cost: one feat; Effect: weak/decent/strong/OMG"). And here we are...
Vegepygmy
06-13-06, 04:44 PM To munchkin is to search out flaws in rules, and abuse them to gain an unfair amount of power.I suppose that's one possible way to be a munchkin, but most of them aren't nearly this sophisticated.

The term "munchkin" originated in the early history of gaming as a result of the fact that most of the people to whom it applied were children. Whether one is or is not a munchkin is an entirely subjective matter, so defining it is virtually impossible, but if you've ever had an 8 year-old D&D enthusiast tell you all about his incredibly cool character and all the incredibly cool magic items he owns and all the incredibly cool things he can do with (or without) them...you've encountered a munchkin. And if that 8 year-old was actually 28 years old, you've encountered a munchkin who should know better.
metamind
06-13-06, 07:23 PM *Heavenly choir* (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=46916)

P.S. Deus ex machinas refers to somthing like a random element to resolve a conflict, such as the mian character waking up and realizing it was all a dream. (been a while since I looked it up). Here's a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina).
woodwalker
06-13-06, 07:24 PM deus ex maxima is god out of the machine. basically, it is a happening that makes the characters do something specific. yes, basically railroading.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Voldar_Mecorthio 06-09-06, 12:37 PM	Okay, there are a few terms used on these forems that I don't understand. If anyone knows what they mean, please tell me. Deux es Machina- That's latin for "God in the Machine", yet people use it with dms. :confused: Obviously has another meaning, but I dont know what it is. Min/Maxing- no clue what this means. BBEG- means the big enemy of an adventure or campaign, but what do the letters stand for? (It's obviously an acronim) That's all. If you know what they mean please tell me! :D
Tomi Shadows 06-09-06, 12:45 PM	Deux es Machina- No idea... Min/Maxing- This means constructing your character to be as good as rules allow (Maxing), or making something as weak as you can to play with.(Min) BBEG- I believe it is Big Bad Evil Guy.
Cthulhu3125 06-09-06, 12:51 PM	Same usage as normal: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/deus+ex+machina
Voldar_Mecorthio 06-09-06, 01:01 PM	Allright, thanks! As for Deux Ex Machina, the use was something to get players back on track, aka railroading.
Shaggy_Shaggs 06-09-06, 01:12 PM	Tomi Shadows isn't using the typical meaning for min/max. He seems to imply max means powergaming and min means gimping. Min/maxing means minimizing weaknesses and maximizing strengths. There are quite a few people around that'll talk about it like it's a bad thing, these people are misguided. Everybody min/maxes to one degree or another. Ever played a warrior class with higher scores in Str and/or Con than the mental scores? That'd be min/maxing. Wizard with high enough Intelligence to cast spells and enough Dex and Con to avoid dying in combat, when a an extremely strong, wise, charismatic wizard might've been more interesting? Min/maxing. Min/maxing can be taken far enough to seem unfair, but I highly doubt any of the purists actually avoid it. If you've ever intentionally done to intentionally improve a character, rather than just randomly assigning everything and/or intentionally gimping the character, you've min/maxed at least a little.
TotemWarrior 06-09-06, 01:35 PM	The term Deux ex Machina comes from certain greek plays where, near the end of the play, an actor portraying one of the gods was lowered to the stage (via ropes and pulleys, the "machine") to wave his hands and use his godlike powers to fix whatever had gone wrong in the story. Modern usage as far as D&D goes is similar, in that the DM can use rule 0 to simply wave away problems with the campaign. It's jarring in the context of the game, and is, as stated above, generally considered a form of railroading. Edit: Typos
scienceman47 06-09-06, 02:20 PM	Deus ex machina example. This happened in a campain I saw. A DM wanted a PC to go to X town. Earlier a NPC said he should go to this town, but the PC wanted to go elsewhere. So later he says "A letter falls next to you". Mind you, this occurs in the middle of the wilderness, and no explanation is given. It was gonna say "go to this town", but the PC sees whats coming and ignores it. Finally the DM kills the character, and ressurects him, IN THAT TOWN. The PC had no choice in the matter. Another version involves DM pets, characters of the DM's making that often gain immortality and other benefits because the DM has a fondness for them. You will encounter a situation where your PC's cannot save themselves, they encounter a monster thats way too powerful, or get stuck somewhere that they cant get out of, like a prison or cave in. Bam, DM's pet swoops in to save the day. He makes his own creation feel powerful at the expense of every PC at the table. This is closer to the original definition. Also note that MinMaxing is different from Munchkining. To munchkin is to search out flaws in rules, and abuse them to gain an unfair amount of power. The reason I say this is that many people get the two terms confused, and fair players will be unfairly assaulted for favoring a more mechanically focused character. Notice how defensive shaggy is, its because he probably taken a beating on the boards, probably caused by confusion about the above words.
Darkuwa 06-09-06, 03:44 PM	Deus ex machina example. This happened in a campain I saw. A DM wanted a PC to go to X town. Earlier a NPC said he should go to this town, but the PC wanted to go elsewhere. So later he says "A letter falls next to you". Mind you, this occurs in the middle of the wilderness, and no explanation is given. It was gonna say "go to this town", but the PC sees whats coming and ignores it. Finally the DM kills the character, and ressurects him, IN THAT TOWN. The PC had no choice in the matter. Another version involves DM pets, characters of the DM's making that often gain immortality and other benefits because the DM has a fondness for them. You will encounter a situation where your PC's cannot save themselves, they encounter a monster thats way too powerful, or get stuck somewhere that they cant get out of, like a prison or cave in. Bam, DM's pet swoops in to save the day. He makes his own creation feel powerful at the expense of every PC at the table. This is closer to the original definition. First one is Railroading. Second one is Deus ex Machina. They are not the same thing.
Malruhn 06-10-06, 01:49 AM	Shaggy is mostly correct on his correction of "min/max", however in the cases where it is considered "bad" or used as a term of derision, are for the people that end up with cookie-cutter characters that all end up the same - to HECK with the role-playing possibilities. Back some 25 years ago, we called them "Xerox characters". When your character died, just pull out a photocopy of the sheet, fill in a new name and keep playing!! There really weren't any differences between them other than name. Min/Maxing is seen as icky-bad by some, but Shaggs is right in that we all do it to an extent. Where the term becomes a "curse word" is for the folks that don't give a hoot about individuality, they just min/max that character concept to squeeze out every last ounce of to hit/damage/power from the piece of paper... and that is all they have, just a piece of paper that is just like the last piece of paper with a new name. Most of us don't mind when a player min/maxes a character - but the next time the player rolls up a character, it had BETTER be different than the last!! __________________________ Another good example of Deus ex Machina is when the giant eagles swooped in to rescue Frodo and Sam in Lord of the Rings. They weren't mentioned elsewhere... but, suddenly, POOF there they were to save the day... then they went away.
scienceman47 06-10-06, 01:53 AM	First one is Railroading. Second one is Deus ex Machina. They are not the same thing. Thank you, though I was grasping at what is sometimes called deus ex machina, and what I understood to actually be dues ex machina. That is, what is sometimes called deus ex machina isnt, but perhaps I was spreading false information, however well intended. In any case once again thank you for the clarification. So... I think we are finished with the current thread. If there is anything else, I would be glad to help.
scienceman47 06-10-06, 02:19 AM	Another good example of Deus ex Machina is when the giant eagles swooped in to rescue Frodo and Sam in Lord of the Rings. They weren't mentioned elsewhere... but, suddenly, POOF there they were to save the day... then they went away. As per the min-maxing, that's very true. Identical stats are less than desirable. But there are those who believe that taking a suboptimal skill, Profession the greatest offender, or a uncharacteristically low stat in a class reliant on said stat eg.(8 strength as a barb, 10 Dex and 10 int as a rogue), as ideal role-playing. That is, by sacrificing precious skill points and other such, they achieve greater role-play potential by forsaking the sacred cow of effectiveness. If there was a character with genuine 8 strength in a barbarian tribe, he would have left, or taken up another profession.
zae 06-10-06, 03:14 AM	"he would have left, or taken up another profession." Exactly. You'd have to be rather stupid to stick with a job where you're useless. If I wasn't good with numbers and at searching for things, I would switch to a different job. People do what they're good at. The case where it becomes a problem is when a player makes themself good at everything so that everyone else is redundant, or when they make themself able to defeat the rest of the party combined, and use that to bully the rest around. Another way to think of it is this. Did you ever read that serious, heroic fantasy novel about the hero who went to slay a dragon with arcane might, except he was clumsy and bad at magic? Neither did I, because it wouldn't be written: he would have died long before the dragon ever came into the picture.
MADGator 06-10-06, 04:23 AM	Another way to think of it is this. Did you ever read that serious, heroic fantasy novel about the hero who went to slay a dragon with arcane might, except he was clumsy and bad at magic? Neither did I, because it wouldn't be written: he would have died long before the dragon ever came into the picture. Nah, he probably would have just CLAIMED to have slain a dragon, gotten a book deal, done the tavern circuit, sued for libel over the stories printed about him in those cheap scrolls they sell at the general store, dated a wealthy and popular heiress who has no apparent talent, gotten hooked on fairy dust, gone into rehab, sold a book written about that done by a ghost writer.... You know, the usualycelebtrity stuff.
Tomi Shadows 06-10-06, 12:19 PM	Tomi Shadows isn't using the typical meaning for min/max. He seems to imply max means powergaming and min means gimping. Min/maxing means minimizing weaknesses and maximizing strengths. There are quite a few people around that'll talk about it like it's a bad thing, these people are misguided. Everybody min/maxes to one degree or another. Ever played a warrior class with higher scores in Str and/or Con than the mental scores? That'd be min/maxing. Wizard with high enough Intelligence to cast spells and enough Dex and Con to avoid dying in combat, when a an extremely strong, wise, charismatic wizard might've been more interesting? Min/maxing. Min/maxing can be taken far enough to seem unfair, but I highly doubt any of the purists actually avoid it. If you've ever intentionally done to intentionally improve a character, rather than just randomly assigning everything and/or intentionally gimping the character, you've min/maxed at least a little. Thanks for correcting me. I guess I was a little confused too.
offcenterideas 06-10-06, 10:50 PM	Different gaming system, but the perfect example of MinMaxing gone WAY too far was in a SciFi GURPS game I was in a while back. The party was a highly sucessful surgeon (me), a cyborg thug from the streets, and a brain in a jar that was rediculously intellegent and rich (minmaxer). This brain invented robots to act for him through wireless mental control from any distance that could tear buildings apart barehanded, had missile bays in its back, and had a built in med center controlled by robots (who were better at it than me) :weep: . He had 5 or 6 of them... and this was on top of the dozens of other robots he controlled and his gigantic starship. Completely legit by the rules. The campaign lasted two sessions before we all realized how pointless the other characters were.
Nom 06-10-06, 11:14 PM	When the term Min/Max is used as a (legitimate?) criticism it usually implies someone who "dumps" certain aspects of their character in a headlong pursuit of power, no matter how aesthetically unsatisfying this may be. The stereotypical example being someone who convinces their DM to let them put 3 in Cha and move it all to Str, on the assumption that they will never need Cha anyway. Not as a character concept, but purely in an attempt to give themselves an uber-awesome melee attack.
BeregondoftheGuard 06-10-06, 11:32 PM	Deus ex Machina is less of a railroading, IIRC, then a "random saving." It's when all the characters are in some fight and they're about to die, when suddenly an army or random epic-hero suddenly steps in, out of nowhere, for no reason, and saves them all. There is are a few very good (or very bad, as the case may be) examples of this in literature and film that I could name, but as most occur as endings I'll refrain in case you haven't read/seen them yet. If you do, I think you'll understand what I mean.
Sulaco 06-12-06, 11:04 AM	Allright, thanks! As for Deux Ex Machina, the use was something to get players back on track, aka railroading. Not quite. Deus xe machina means "God from the machine." It is a term from classical Greek theatre and was common in plays at the time. Basically everything would go to hell and then, right at the end, a God would show up (the actor was literally raised or lowered onto stage with a machine, thus the term) who would fix everything with a wave of his hand. The modern example is the Cavalry riding to the resuce in old westerns. It's when the characters are totally screwed and then comethign completely beyond their control saves their ass for no reason whatsover. It is very clichéd and highly unsatisfying. No DM worth their dice should ever create a situation in which deus ex machnia is required to save the party or the game. If it happens then the DM screwed up big-time.
celtredleg 06-12-06, 11:31 AM	I would rather let a TPK happen than bring in the cavalry. There is always a relative, or friend or somebody with a legit reason to have at least one person raised. Much better than off the wall fixes.
Darkuwa 06-12-06, 01:33 PM	The only good Dues ex in my opinion is a reveal of power not a gain of it. Like the bumbling wizard the party has been escorting reveals himself to be the greatest archmage. Obviously if you do this just because the party is screwed its bad, but if it was hinted at and its at a pivitol part in the story it can work well.
Pennarin 06-12-06, 01:44 PM	Voldar, you can find definitions for all current lingo in trollbill's Dictionary of Terminology (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=46916), and you can fathom weird internet ac cronyms like IIRC and FYI by typing them in NetLingo (http://www.netlingo.com/), which has a search engine.
GypsyComet 06-13-06, 12:04 AM	Different gaming system, but the perfect example of MinMaxing gone WAY too far was in a SciFi GURPS game I was in a while back. Which is appropriate, because the term originated in the early 80's, as far as I recall, with the point-build systems like Hero (Champions) and GURPS: "MINimum points cost, MAXimum effect". It probably migrated to D&D via the Options books in late 2nd Ed, and 3rd was sufficiently close in concept to keep the term useful ("cost: one feat; Effect: weak/decent/strong/OMG"). And here we are...
Vegepygmy 06-13-06, 04:44 PM	To munchkin is to search out flaws in rules, and abuse them to gain an unfair amount of power.I suppose that's one possible way to be a munchkin, but most of them aren't nearly this sophisticated. The term "munchkin" originated in the early history of gaming as a result of the fact that most of the people to whom it applied were children. Whether one is or is not a munchkin is an entirely subjective matter, so defining it is virtually impossible, but if you've ever had an 8 year-old D&D enthusiast tell you all about his incredibly cool character and all the incredibly cool magic items he owns and all the incredibly cool things he can do with (or without) them...you've encountered a munchkin. And if that 8 year-old was actually 28 years old, you've encountered a munchkin who should know better.
metamind 06-13-06, 07:23 PM	Heavenly choir (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=46916) P.S. Deus ex machinas refers to somthing like a random element to resolve a conflict, such as the mian character waking up and realizing it was all a dream. (been a while since I looked it up). Here's a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina).
woodwalker 06-13-06, 07:24 PM	deus ex maxima is god out of the machine. basically, it is a happening that makes the characters do something specific. yes, basically railroading.