A defining question about the Saint template [Archive] - Wizards Community

A defining question about the Saint template [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elvish Presley
02-10-05, 02:59 AM I am sorry if this has been covered someplace before, but I was unable to find it.

Now, when reading about creating a Saint (p. 185 in BoED), the following paragraph puzzled me:

Special Qualities: A saint retains all the character's special qualities and gains those listed below, as well as the outsider type.

I underlined the part which made me wonder. Does that mean:

A - This simply refers to a previous paragraph:

Size and Type: The creature's type changes to "outsider". The saint has the native subtype. Size is unchanged.

In essence, you keep your former special qualities, gain some new ones listed in the Saint template, and you gain the "outsider type".

Or.....does it mean B - The underlined part refers to the outsider qualities mentioned in the Monster Manual, meaning that you you keep your former special qualities, gain some new ones listed in the Saint template, as well as the standard outsider qualities which are described in the Monster Manual?

If it means A, I personally think it is worded badly. But if it means B, doesn't thhat essentially open a can of worms? Two of the qualities listed there are changing the hit die to d8 and giving the character BAB as a fighter, according to HD. Would that mean that my 1 Monk/5 Rogue/1 Slayer of Domiel/Saint would have a BAB of +7/+2 instead of +3 and that my former and/or future hit dice would change to d8? And what if I had been a Barbarian? Would my hit points potentially decrease?

Oh so many questions, and so little knowledge. My brain hurts, so I plea for help :)
Dartanel
02-10-05, 08:01 AM Your scenario in B) would only affect a creature with monster hit dice. Class hit dice are never affected by creature type.

In Est, A centaur druid who becomes a saint would have her hit dice from monstrous humanoid changed to outsider hit dice. But her druid hit dice would remain unchanged.
Although the can of worms in this case is whether or not to award the skill points retroactively.
PlutoniumKnight
03-06-05, 01:00 AM Although the can of worms in this case is whether or not to award the skill points retroactively.

I don't think they would count retroactively, let's look from a logical perspective. This only works if you gain the saint template after character creation (maybe it wouldn't even work during character creation). Let's look at you learning alchemy before you are a saint. You spend a year learning alchemy and now know fact A, B, and C. When you get the saint template you don't suddenly get more points and learnd fact D. Learning skills requires research and time that you spend while adventuring, you don't suddenly learn more things about one thing if you become a saint.
TrueChanger
03-06-05, 03:58 PM There´s one thing I wonder about: If Class Hit Dice do never change, then what´s to do with the Hit Dice Changed gained by adopting the undead type (yeah ist a little OT,i know)? If a wizard turns himself into a lich, i thought it would be clear that he also would gain the benefits of the increased Hit Dice and it would be logical.
Keldorn2198
03-06-05, 07:02 PM There´s one thing I wonder about: If Class Hit Dice do never change, then what´s to do with the Hit Dice Changed gained by adopting the undead type (yeah ist a little OT,i know)? If a wizard turns himself into a lich, i thought it would be clear that he also would gain the benefits of the increased Hit Dice and it would be logical.

Undead, deathless, and constructs are an exception to the normal rules. In all three cases the character whose type changes loses his Con score, and re-rolls all hit dice as HD of the appropriate type (Undead = d12, Construct = d10, don't have info on deathless in front of me and am too lazy to get up). Constructs also gain bonus hit points based on their size.

However, the general rule is that changing the type of a creature with class levels does NOT change its class HD or alter its HP. There are a few specific templates (3.0, not yet updated to 3.5) that do change this, but they are the exception.
Nuntius128
03-07-05, 11:39 AM I don't think they would count retroactively, let's look from a logical perspective.

I think the best way to answer this is to ask "Does gaining an additional point to the modifier of Intelligence grant you bonus skill points retroactively?" It would work the same way here, I think. I'm pretty sure it doesn't allow that. Now, if you were currently going through the savage progression, then it would be OK, and you'd continue with outsider skill points.
Marcus Majarra
03-08-05, 12:41 AM Skill points are never gained retroactively.

This is why Int is one of the best attributes to have high from the beginning, as opposed to, say, Con, whose benefits are always gained retroactively.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elvish Presley 02-10-05, 02:59 AM	I am sorry if this has been covered someplace before, but I was unable to find it. Now, when reading about creating a Saint (p. 185 in BoED), the following paragraph puzzled me: Special Qualities: A saint retains all the character's special qualities and gains those listed below, as well as the outsider type. I underlined the part which made me wonder. Does that mean: A - This simply refers to a previous paragraph: Size and Type: The creature's type changes to "outsider". The saint has the native subtype. Size is unchanged. In essence, you keep your former special qualities, gain some new ones listed in the Saint template, and you gain the "outsider type". Or.....does it mean B - The underlined part refers to the outsider qualities mentioned in the Monster Manual, meaning that you you keep your former special qualities, gain some new ones listed in the Saint template, as well as the standard outsider qualities which are described in the Monster Manual? If it means A, I personally think it is worded badly. But if it means B, doesn't thhat essentially open a can of worms? Two of the qualities listed there are changing the hit die to d8 and giving the character BAB as a fighter, according to HD. Would that mean that my 1 Monk/5 Rogue/1 Slayer of Domiel/Saint would have a BAB of +7/+2 instead of +3 and that my former and/or future hit dice would change to d8? And what if I had been a Barbarian? Would my hit points potentially decrease? Oh so many questions, and so little knowledge. My brain hurts, so I plea for help :)
Dartanel 02-10-05, 08:01 AM	Your scenario in B) would only affect a creature with monster hit dice. Class hit dice are never affected by creature type. In Est, A centaur druid who becomes a saint would have her hit dice from monstrous humanoid changed to outsider hit dice. But her druid hit dice would remain unchanged. Although the can of worms in this case is whether or not to award the skill points retroactively.
PlutoniumKnight 03-06-05, 01:00 AM	Although the can of worms in this case is whether or not to award the skill points retroactively. I don't think they would count retroactively, let's look from a logical perspective. This only works if you gain the saint template after character creation (maybe it wouldn't even work during character creation). Let's look at you learning alchemy before you are a saint. You spend a year learning alchemy and now know fact A, B, and C. When you get the saint template you don't suddenly get more points and learnd fact D. Learning skills requires research and time that you spend while adventuring, you don't suddenly learn more things about one thing if you become a saint.
TrueChanger 03-06-05, 03:58 PM	There´s one thing I wonder about: If Class Hit Dice do never change, then what´s to do with the Hit Dice Changed gained by adopting the undead type (yeah ist a little OT,i know)? If a wizard turns himself into a lich, i thought it would be clear that he also would gain the benefits of the increased Hit Dice and it would be logical.
Keldorn2198 03-06-05, 07:02 PM	There´s one thing I wonder about: If Class Hit Dice do never change, then what´s to do with the Hit Dice Changed gained by adopting the undead type (yeah ist a little OT,i know)? If a wizard turns himself into a lich, i thought it would be clear that he also would gain the benefits of the increased Hit Dice and it would be logical. Undead, deathless, and constructs are an exception to the normal rules. In all three cases the character whose type changes loses his Con score, and re-rolls all hit dice as HD of the appropriate type (Undead = d12, Construct = d10, don't have info on deathless in front of me and am too lazy to get up). Constructs also gain bonus hit points based on their size. However, the general rule is that changing the type of a creature with class levels does NOT change its class HD or alter its HP. There are a few specific templates (3.0, not yet updated to 3.5) that do change this, but they are the exception.
Nuntius128 03-07-05, 11:39 AM	I don't think they would count retroactively, let's look from a logical perspective. I think the best way to answer this is to ask "Does gaining an additional point to the modifier of Intelligence grant you bonus skill points retroactively?" It would work the same way here, I think. I'm pretty sure it doesn't allow that. Now, if you were currently going through the savage progression, then it would be OK, and you'd continue with outsider skill points.
Marcus Majarra 03-08-05, 12:41 AM	Skill points are never gained retroactively. This is why Int is one of the best attributes to have high from the beginning, as opposed to, say, Con, whose benefits are always gained retroactively.