A Different 4E Thread [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Different 4E Thread [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mordred
05-05-06, 01:08 PM I took this from a Line of Sight written by Monte Cook:

Let me preface this by saying that nothing I'll write here on the subject of 4th Edition is based on any kind of direct knowledge. No one's told me a thing. But I did work at Wizards for years, and I knew the original plans. Moreover, I know the kinds of products that you release before a new edition, and the kinds of things you post to the Internet and say at conventions when you're working on a new edition. And so based on all that, my wild guess is 2008, with an announcement in 2007. That said, I think it maybe could come as early as 2007, with an announcement this year.

So... what you all think about it?

edit: you may find the complete text here (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_155)
Kyuketsukiouji
05-05-06, 01:25 PM I think this thread is going to get locked.
Rpgraccoon
05-05-06, 01:36 PM Ehh.. it may not. As it will be gone after the forums update.

Truthfully, I belive 07-08 is about right for the announcement. They keep running out of ideas. As soon as the complete line-races-of-line finish completely it will come.
Germytech
05-05-06, 02:18 PM I read that article a while ago, too. There's no way Monte Cook is right.

1) He hasn't been at Wizards for years. Plans, whatever he thought them to be when he was with them, change. That is more than evidenced by the fact that Wizards has been doing an amazing job of changing their product line as a direct result of customer input. PHBII and Complete Psionic would not even exist without customer feedback, let alone Eberron. Customers do not want a new edition.

2) Wizards has been releasing modifications in an effort to tweak the rules of what already exists. The polymorph errata, a large effort in an attempt to improve the game, would not have been released if a new edition was "on the horizon."

3) Wizards still has a lot to do, a lot to finish in order to please their customers (see point 1). More environment books, more Heroes books. More Eberron. More Forgotten Realms. More support for the new base classes. More variants. More support for variants. All this is wanted for third edition, and there is no sign of slowing because of Wizards rehashing the same material. Wizards has been consistently publishing new an innovative material.

Monte Cook, despite being a leader in the industry and part of the Wizards staff at the onset, could not predict the direction Wizards has taken: namely, an effort to introduce new ideas for old concepts. He has no idea what he's talking about, and third edition will be here for quite a while before we, the customer base, get bored of it.
Eikcuf
05-05-06, 02:57 PM Do even we need a forth edition? What more can be changed? What needs to be added that can't work with the current rule set?
These forth edition threads realy **** me off.
Archangel_James
05-05-06, 06:02 PM We don't need a forth edition. There's nothing wrong with our current edition. With some decent players, the system is perfect. In fact, we don't even need any more books. But Wizards needs to produce a constant flow of books to keep the game supported. When they run out of ideas and start producing bad books, they'll be forced to switch just refresh their ideas. However, we the players won't have to switch a long with them. We can stay with 3.5 for as long as we care to. For this reason, it's in Wizards' best interest to wait as long as possible for 4th edition. They need to find the perfect point where enough people are ready to change, but not so long that their books start becoming bad and the fan base loses interest in purchasing from Wizards anymore.
Majorafire77
05-05-06, 07:28 PM The problems that we have with 3.5 edition require large changes, but doubtfully large enough to warrant a new set of core books and supplements. Personally, I think there needs to be a change in the magic system (especially metamagic) and there needs to be a change in class balance. Honestly, CoDzilla has been ruling for years now, and I think WotC needs to issue some eratta to bring it back down to an acceptable power level.
Mordred
05-05-06, 08:27 PM 1) He hasn't been at Wizards for years. Plans, whatever he thought them to be when he was with them, change. That is more than evidenced by the fact that Wizards has been doing an amazing job of changing their product line as a direct result of customer input. PHBII and Complete Psionic would not even exist without customer feedback, let alone Eberron. Customers do not want a new edition.

Well, when 3.5 came out Monte said he knew about it in advance, but it happened earlier than he thought it would. It seems that they keep with the planning, at least to a degree.
Kadasbrass
05-05-06, 08:31 PM 4th edition will be pushed out after the dice industry buysout WotC in efferts to push sales of the d100 by replacing the d20 with it.
bloodpheonix
05-05-06, 08:33 PM NO ****ING WAY WILL THEIR BE A 4E i will do everything in my power to prevent it! c'mon what more needs to changed! every thing is easy to understand.why would they do this :confused: :weep: :eek: :mad:
Licínio Miranda
05-05-06, 08:58 PM Codzilla? What? Explanations please!!

I do not want a 4th Edition. Neither a 3.5 edition.

What Wizards should do is to lauch "complete core books" with all the changes that they have made, like the polimorphy spells, a fixed sorcerer, a fixed dragon aprentice, clean-up rules and, more important:

a huge FAQ (printed with the book, and not in the website)to answer all those boring and endless questions like "daddy, does monkey grip and powerfull build stack?!! Because I want my Goliath to wield a sword that it is 3 times larger than him!!"
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
05-05-06, 09:32 PM I've said it before and I'll say it again. Fourth Edition will come out around 2012 at the earliest. DnD editions last from 12 to 15 years. There is no indication that this will change.
Kursk
05-06-06, 01:06 AM DnD editions last from 12 to 15 years. There is no indication that this will change.

Except for 3.0 :rolleyes:
Kadasbrass
05-06-06, 01:27 AM Except for 3.0 :rolleyes:

No one knew how 3.0 was going to turn out in the end. The designers decided to correct some problems, simplify some issues. It was easier to do it sooner then later. This way only a dozen and half sources needed to be updated instead of the whole line later on.
Brastan
05-06-06, 02:59 AM I would argue that 3.5 was not a new edition of D&D and falls into the category of Revised. While I missed the initial 2nd Ed. PHB I began playing with the 2nd Ed. Revised books. I'm not sure how "revised" things were between printings but that is how I see "3.5." It is 3rd Edition Revised. My question is will there be a 3rd Edition 2nd Revision in 2007? A reprint of the core books that contains the culmination of errata that has been generated since 3rd Edition Revised was released. Also adding the Swift and Immediate actions to the core rules so they no longer need to be printed in every supplement that uses them.

Regardless I still expect any (if any) up coming editions of D&D to use the d20 system.
Board_Rider
05-06-06, 09:39 AM I fully suspect a new edition in 2010. I sure hope that I am wrong.

I have spoken with various people, friends (nothing official), and we pretty much agree that a new edition could possibly hurt WoTC than help them. The core reason that we think this is that currently WoTC supports 3.5 like no other D&D edition ever.

Currently there are so many supplements, erratas and even this board that supports 3.5. I fully believe that a new edition will "turn off" many of the D&D faithful because it means that many people will have to re-climb the hill, so to speak, after putting so muh money into the 3.5 edition. Thats the biggest reason for myself.

As far as balance and fixes....thats always going to be there as long as supplements are allowed at the table. There is virtually no way for game designers to fathom every scenario of min/maxing that players can come up with. Additionally there will always be more value in one skill or feat than another. No edition change will fix this. Some of the guys around here will find a way to maximize the potential of any material issued.
Witch
05-06-06, 09:41 AM There is no need for a 4E, and I don't see why everyone is fascinated by it. D20 is a fine system, and there's too many supplements out already to just throw them away, and start a new edition in which they can bring out similar supplements again.
Chrono Nexus
05-06-06, 10:58 AM I don't doubt that 3.5 will remain the mainstream type of DnD for many decades- but I suspect that wiz's will bring out a new line for ADnD. Many gamers still play it, thaco and all, but wiz's hasn't been paying that niche of their consumers much attention.
Bulletproof_Condom
05-06-06, 01:10 PM Who cares if there's a fourth edition?

I can't speak for the rest of you, but I'm quite happy with 3.5. So until... they announce a fourth edition, they release it, it gets good reviews, and I decide I can afford it...what the hell difference does it make? Monte's speculations have no bearing on my gaming experience.

People still play AD&D. People still play 3e. People will still play 3.5 after 4e is released. People will still play AD&D after 5e is released. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Kadasbrass
05-06-06, 01:11 PM There is no need for a 4E, and I don't see why everyone is fascinated by it. D20 is a fine system, and there's too many supplements out already to just throw them away, and start a new edition in which they can bring out similar supplements again.

4th edition prophecies have sorta become our own little doomsday prophecies. Ever since 3rd came out people have been making predictions for 4th edition everyday, and not a day goes by that someone hasn't predicted that it would be the day.

Also as a side note, these predictions for 4th edition have achieved self-sustaining fusion. People make them and others see them and repeat them causing more people to post them and more to read them and report them to other people.

Einstein was wrong; the most powerful force in the universe is the 4th edition rumormongering (which will be replaced by 5th edition once 4th edition appears).
DeathsAudit
05-06-06, 01:58 PM If it comes out I hope alignment is less prominent. Thats my perfect D&D.
hmmmm
05-06-06, 03:03 PM The only constant is change.
I don't really care if there is a 4e or not, I do however wonder what they would change from 3.5.
Kursk
05-06-06, 03:20 PM I would argue that 3.5 was not a new edition of D&D and falls into the category of Revised. While I missed the initial 2nd Ed. PHB I began playing with the 2nd Ed. Revised books. I'm not sure how "revised" things were between printings but that is how I see "3.5." It is 3rd Edition Revised. My question is will there be a 3rd Edition 2nd Revision in 2007? A reprint of the core books that contains the culmination of errata that has been generated since 3rd Edition Revised was released. Also adding the Swift and Immediate actions to the core rules so they no longer need to be printed in every supplement that uses them.

Regardless I still expect any (if any) up coming editions of D&D to use the d20 system.

A rose by any other names means you have to purchase new core books.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
05-06-06, 09:24 PM A rose by any other names means you have to purchase new core books.
Well, in that case it means that 3e is the real 4e. AD&D Second Edition anyone? :rolleyes:
Kursk
05-06-06, 09:27 PM Well, in that case it means that 3e is the real 4e. AD&D Second Edition anyone? :rolleyes:

Yeah, probably right. They probably should have waited until later and put out "4.0" and not bothered with 3.5
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
05-06-06, 09:31 PM Yeah, probably right. They probably should have waited until later and put out "4.0" and not bothered with 3.5
Did you miss my point entirely? By your logic, 3.0 is Fourth Edition. I'm not agreeing with your stance. I'm tearing it to shreds.
Entheogenic
05-06-06, 09:48 PM Codzilla? What? Explanations please!!

Cleric or Druid. A reference to how incredibly powerful these two classes can be if built properly--they have the potential (or so most people think) to far outstrip other material in core.

Entheogenic
Kursk
05-06-06, 10:04 PM Did you miss my point entirely? By your logic, 3.0 is Fourth Edition. I'm not agreeing with your stance. I'm tearing it to shreds.

I don't have a "stance" so much as I'm telling a sequence of actions by the game company. So tear apart at your leisure as it doesn't change any fact. Have a nice day.
AT-AT Assault
05-06-06, 10:10 PM Just to add my 2 cents. If they do release a 4th edition (or another 3.X edition) they should severly tone done magic. Why? Its been my expeirence that Full Casters beyond 10th level outshine all others. For One the Non Casters(and Paladin and Ranger) depend on magic items and the Partie's Full Caster(s) and the Full Caster could care less for Non Casters(ie they dont need non Casters to be able to survive). Because Non Casters depend on Magic Items and Casters that makes Casters Shine eve more. And once you go Epic, if you cant cast Epic Spells you're probably going to get left in the dust.
WizO_Cat
05-06-06, 10:40 PM It will come when it comes ...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mordred 05-05-06, 01:08 PM	I took this from a Line of Sight written by Monte Cook: Let me preface this by saying that nothing I'll write here on the subject of 4th Edition is based on any kind of direct knowledge. No one's told me a thing. But I did work at Wizards for years, and I knew the original plans. Moreover, I know the kinds of products that you release before a new edition, and the kinds of things you post to the Internet and say at conventions when you're working on a new edition. And so based on all that, my wild guess is 2008, with an announcement in 2007. That said, I think it maybe could come as early as 2007, with an announcement this year. So... what you all think about it? edit: you may find the complete text here (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mc_los_155)
Kyuketsukiouji 05-05-06, 01:25 PM	I think this thread is going to get locked.
Rpgraccoon 05-05-06, 01:36 PM	Ehh.. it may not. As it will be gone after the forums update. Truthfully, I belive 07-08 is about right for the announcement. They keep running out of ideas. As soon as the complete line-races-of-line finish completely it will come.
Germytech 05-05-06, 02:18 PM	I read that article a while ago, too. There's no way Monte Cook is right. 1) He hasn't been at Wizards for years. Plans, whatever he thought them to be when he was with them, change. That is more than evidenced by the fact that Wizards has been doing an amazing job of changing their product line as a direct result of customer input. PHBII and Complete Psionic would not even exist without customer feedback, let alone Eberron. Customers do not want a new edition. 2) Wizards has been releasing modifications in an effort to tweak the rules of what already exists. The polymorph errata, a large effort in an attempt to improve the game, would not have been released if a new edition was "on the horizon." 3) Wizards still has a lot to do, a lot to finish in order to please their customers (see point 1). More environment books, more Heroes books. More Eberron. More Forgotten Realms. More support for the new base classes. More variants. More support for variants. All this is wanted for third edition, and there is no sign of slowing because of Wizards rehashing the same material. Wizards has been consistently publishing new an innovative material. Monte Cook, despite being a leader in the industry and part of the Wizards staff at the onset, could not predict the direction Wizards has taken: namely, an effort to introduce new ideas for old concepts. He has no idea what he's talking about, and third edition will be here for quite a while before we, the customer base, get bored of it.
Eikcuf 05-05-06, 02:57 PM	Do even we need a forth edition? What more can be changed? What needs to be added that can't work with the current rule set? These forth edition threads realy **** me off.
Archangel_James 05-05-06, 06:02 PM	We don't need a forth edition. There's nothing wrong with our current edition. With some decent players, the system is perfect. In fact, we don't even need any more books. But Wizards needs to produce a constant flow of books to keep the game supported. When they run out of ideas and start producing bad books, they'll be forced to switch just refresh their ideas. However, we the players won't have to switch a long with them. We can stay with 3.5 for as long as we care to. For this reason, it's in Wizards' best interest to wait as long as possible for 4th edition. They need to find the perfect point where enough people are ready to change, but not so long that their books start becoming bad and the fan base loses interest in purchasing from Wizards anymore.
Majorafire77 05-05-06, 07:28 PM	The problems that we have with 3.5 edition require large changes, but doubtfully large enough to warrant a new set of core books and supplements. Personally, I think there needs to be a change in the magic system (especially metamagic) and there needs to be a change in class balance. Honestly, CoDzilla has been ruling for years now, and I think WotC needs to issue some eratta to bring it back down to an acceptable power level.
Mordred 05-05-06, 08:27 PM	1) He hasn't been at Wizards for years. Plans, whatever he thought them to be when he was with them, change. That is more than evidenced by the fact that Wizards has been doing an amazing job of changing their product line as a direct result of customer input. PHBII and Complete Psionic would not even exist without customer feedback, let alone Eberron. Customers do not want a new edition. Well, when 3.5 came out Monte said he knew about it in advance, but it happened earlier than he thought it would. It seems that they keep with the planning, at least to a degree.
Kadasbrass 05-05-06, 08:31 PM	4th edition will be pushed out after the dice industry buysout WotC in efferts to push sales of the d100 by replacing the d20 with it.
bloodpheonix 05-05-06, 08:33 PM	NO ****ING WAY WILL THEIR BE A 4E i will do everything in my power to prevent it! c'mon what more needs to changed! every thing is easy to understand.why would they do this :confused: :weep: :eek: :mad:
Licínio Miranda 05-05-06, 08:58 PM	Codzilla? What? Explanations please!! I do not want a 4th Edition. Neither a 3.5 edition. What Wizards should do is to lauch "complete core books" with all the changes that they have made, like the polimorphy spells, a fixed sorcerer, a fixed dragon aprentice, clean-up rules and, more important: a huge FAQ (printed with the book, and not in the website)to answer all those boring and endless questions like "daddy, does monkey grip and powerfull build stack?!! Because I want my Goliath to wield a sword that it is 3 times larger than him!!"
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-05-06, 09:32 PM	I've said it before and I'll say it again. Fourth Edition will come out around 2012 at the earliest. DnD editions last from 12 to 15 years. There is no indication that this will change.
Kursk 05-06-06, 01:06 AM	DnD editions last from 12 to 15 years. There is no indication that this will change. Except for 3.0 :rolleyes:
Kadasbrass 05-06-06, 01:27 AM	Except for 3.0 :rolleyes: No one knew how 3.0 was going to turn out in the end. The designers decided to correct some problems, simplify some issues. It was easier to do it sooner then later. This way only a dozen and half sources needed to be updated instead of the whole line later on.
Brastan 05-06-06, 02:59 AM	I would argue that 3.5 was not a new edition of D&D and falls into the category of Revised. While I missed the initial 2nd Ed. PHB I began playing with the 2nd Ed. Revised books. I'm not sure how "revised" things were between printings but that is how I see "3.5." It is 3rd Edition Revised. My question is will there be a 3rd Edition 2nd Revision in 2007? A reprint of the core books that contains the culmination of errata that has been generated since 3rd Edition Revised was released. Also adding the Swift and Immediate actions to the core rules so they no longer need to be printed in every supplement that uses them. Regardless I still expect any (if any) up coming editions of D&D to use the d20 system.
Board_Rider 05-06-06, 09:39 AM	I fully suspect a new edition in 2010. I sure hope that I am wrong. I have spoken with various people, friends (nothing official), and we pretty much agree that a new edition could possibly hurt WoTC than help them. The core reason that we think this is that currently WoTC supports 3.5 like no other D&D edition ever. Currently there are so many supplements, erratas and even this board that supports 3.5. I fully believe that a new edition will "turn off" many of the D&D faithful because it means that many people will have to re-climb the hill, so to speak, after putting so muh money into the 3.5 edition. Thats the biggest reason for myself. As far as balance and fixes....thats always going to be there as long as supplements are allowed at the table. There is virtually no way for game designers to fathom every scenario of min/maxing that players can come up with. Additionally there will always be more value in one skill or feat than another. No edition change will fix this. Some of the guys around here will find a way to maximize the potential of any material issued.
Witch 05-06-06, 09:41 AM	There is no need for a 4E, and I don't see why everyone is fascinated by it. D20 is a fine system, and there's too many supplements out already to just throw them away, and start a new edition in which they can bring out similar supplements again.
Chrono Nexus 05-06-06, 10:58 AM	I don't doubt that 3.5 will remain the mainstream type of DnD for many decades- but I suspect that wiz's will bring out a new line for ADnD. Many gamers still play it, thaco and all, but wiz's hasn't been paying that niche of their consumers much attention.
Bulletproof_Condom 05-06-06, 01:10 PM	Who cares if there's a fourth edition? I can't speak for the rest of you, but I'm quite happy with 3.5. So until... they announce a fourth edition, they release it, it gets good reviews, and I decide I can afford it...what the hell difference does it make? Monte's speculations have no bearing on my gaming experience. People still play AD&D. People still play 3e. People will still play 3.5 after 4e is released. People will still play AD&D after 5e is released. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Kadasbrass 05-06-06, 01:11 PM	There is no need for a 4E, and I don't see why everyone is fascinated by it. D20 is a fine system, and there's too many supplements out already to just throw them away, and start a new edition in which they can bring out similar supplements again. 4th edition prophecies have sorta become our own little doomsday prophecies. Ever since 3rd came out people have been making predictions for 4th edition everyday, and not a day goes by that someone hasn't predicted that it would be the day. Also as a side note, these predictions for 4th edition have achieved self-sustaining fusion. People make them and others see them and repeat them causing more people to post them and more to read them and report them to other people. Einstein was wrong; the most powerful force in the universe is the 4th edition rumormongering (which will be replaced by 5th edition once 4th edition appears).
DeathsAudit 05-06-06, 01:58 PM	If it comes out I hope alignment is less prominent. Thats my perfect D&D.
hmmmm 05-06-06, 03:03 PM	The only constant is change. I don't really care if there is a 4e or not, I do however wonder what they would change from 3.5.
Kursk 05-06-06, 03:20 PM	I would argue that 3.5 was not a new edition of D&D and falls into the category of Revised. While I missed the initial 2nd Ed. PHB I began playing with the 2nd Ed. Revised books. I'm not sure how "revised" things were between printings but that is how I see "3.5." It is 3rd Edition Revised. My question is will there be a 3rd Edition 2nd Revision in 2007? A reprint of the core books that contains the culmination of errata that has been generated since 3rd Edition Revised was released. Also adding the Swift and Immediate actions to the core rules so they no longer need to be printed in every supplement that uses them. Regardless I still expect any (if any) up coming editions of D&D to use the d20 system. A rose by any other names means you have to purchase new core books.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-06-06, 09:24 PM	A rose by any other names means you have to purchase new core books. Well, in that case it means that 3e is the real 4e. AD&D Second Edition anyone? :rolleyes:
Kursk 05-06-06, 09:27 PM	Well, in that case it means that 3e is the real 4e. AD&D Second Edition anyone? :rolleyes: Yeah, probably right. They probably should have waited until later and put out "4.0" and not bothered with 3.5
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 05-06-06, 09:31 PM	Yeah, probably right. They probably should have waited until later and put out "4.0" and not bothered with 3.5 Did you miss my point entirely? By your logic, 3.0 is Fourth Edition. I'm not agreeing with your stance. I'm tearing it to shreds.
Entheogenic 05-06-06, 09:48 PM	Codzilla? What? Explanations please!! Cleric or Druid. A reference to how incredibly powerful these two classes can be if built properly--they have the potential (or so most people think) to far outstrip other material in core. Entheogenic
Kursk 05-06-06, 10:04 PM	Did you miss my point entirely? By your logic, 3.0 is Fourth Edition. I'm not agreeing with your stance. I'm tearing it to shreds. I don't have a "stance" so much as I'm telling a sequence of actions by the game company. So tear apart at your leisure as it doesn't change any fact. Have a nice day.
AT-AT Assault 05-06-06, 10:10 PM	Just to add my 2 cents. If they do release a 4th edition (or another 3.X edition) they should severly tone done magic. Why? Its been my expeirence that Full Casters beyond 10th level outshine all others. For One the Non Casters(and Paladin and Ranger) depend on magic items and the Partie's Full Caster(s) and the Full Caster could care less for Non Casters(ie they dont need non Casters to be able to survive). Because Non Casters depend on Magic Items and Casters that makes Casters Shine eve more. And once you go Epic, if you cant cast Epic Spells you're probably going to get left in the dust.
WizO_Cat 05-06-06, 10:40 PM	It will come when it comes ...