Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Azual 11-03-04, 06:18 PM	Ok I want to make a DND club at ym high school, and i KNOW i have enough people to sign, but im in Georgia, so this means Chritians Rule Us All down here. I can see my Principle right now saying "But isn't it devil worship?" ok im here to ask you guys to post some ways i can make DND *laugh* Educational *laugh and NOT Devil worship. Please help :)
Sucineri 11-03-04, 06:22 PM	Say that it teaches math and creativity. Oh..and if you play D&D in any way that is makes it seem like devil worship then you are doing it wrong.
wereooze 11-03-04, 06:27 PM	D&D promotes, nay Requires: College level literacy, teamwork, applied mathematics, and also delves into such educational subjects as.... Cryptozoology (The study of unknown animals..such as rustmonsters and dragons). Cultural Anthropology (Greyhawke has a culture..I'm certain of it). Comparative Religions & Philosophies (Pelor rules! Gruumsh rules! All hail Kord!) World Histroy (The elves had a civil war and moved underground. Now they are drow) Foriegn Language (Use Lich, geist, wight, doppelganger, dweomer, and golem in enough sentances and you'll qualify for a german credit)
Mentar 11-03-04, 06:45 PM	You might also point out that in the 80's the Roman Catholic Church assigned five priests to study the game, and they found that it was in no way satanic. One of my DMs in the late 80's was one of the priests and he believed that the game was a good way to teach morality if run correctly.
Martryn 11-03-04, 07:02 PM	I would highly recommend not doing anything like that. Do you just want to be labled geek and laughed at by your peers. Definitly don't advertise the fact, and meet in a back room for sure, where no cheerleaders will see you. Or the drama department or journalism department. And I would find a willing teacher to sponser you first, as it will increase the validity of the club. Even if admin says yes, you have to find a sponser, right? And there is a greater chance of starting the club if you had a willing sponser when you went to apply. Here's what I would do: 1. Have a list of names and sugnatures of willing participants in the club. I would say eight to ten would be an appropriate amount. Less would have you not taken seriously and not be worth the effort and I doubt if you could find much more (depending on the size of your high school) 2. Find a sponser and show him that list. He or she has got to be a really cool teacher who will leave you guys alone for the most part and be able to provide a room where no one will bother you. (or know that you're there) 3. Call it a gaming club, and not a DnD club. That way it will encompass a greater amount of games. Even if all you do is play DnD, you could at least say that you play other geek games like Axis and Allies and Risk and Magic: the Gathering. 4. Approach the appropriate personnel. You might want to have a charter already written up when you do that, just to show that you are serious. Good luck! I changed my mind. If done right you might not be the laughing stock of the student council preppies.
Tharivol 11-03-04, 07:23 PM	My experience with D&D (and MTG, and some other games, but then you specifically said a D&D club) was in a Game Club at my high school. it's a Catholic school, so it is very connected to religion, has religion classes, and had to support a Catholic mission. The club was an official club led by a faculty mentor (a science teacher) and was sponsored by the school, so it's not impossible. Religion doesn't necessarily have anything against D&D, it's just that being religious is almost a requirement to have a weird problem with the game. edit: I overlooked part of the last post. You don't need the sponsor to completely leave you alone. The teacher in my club taught new players, ran tournaments, and was the DM for the D&D campaign, so he was really a part of the club. If your faculty sponsor knows something about the game(s), then he/she can actually help out. http://www.geocities.com/hammylover2000/tharivol.txt
Martryn 11-03-04, 07:55 PM	Of course if the faculty sponser is an avid gamer of any sort, that would be the coolest and he or she would definitly be an asset. I didn't know any role-players when I was in high school, though, and asking one that you think might enjoy a game of Axis and Allies would be just as well. I wouldn't limit the club to just DnD. That not only limits membership but also further alienates us real geeks from the rest of the world.
allenchan 11-03-04, 08:05 PM	IIRC if there is a time where clubs are allowed during school then all clubs must be accepted by federal law, they cant pass any biase on clubs. I recall the school district that tried to ban the GSA (Gay Straight Alliance) club in Utah and that was ruled unconstitional. But in that instance they simply removed ALL clubs from the school, so it wouldnt be unequal... but hey, whatever :p
Azual 11-03-04, 08:32 PM	ty all this stuff i think will really secure a club in high school. Gaming Club... i like! I love to play MTG though im a novice by all means and if you have the books, technically FR and Eberron are different games right. i really like the Requirement of College level Literature, etc. :)
nekrolog 11-04-04, 01:02 AM	Why bother to get it sanctioned by the school? You're just inviting all kinds of limitations set by the school for clubs. You can't decide who plays, because school club activities can't be exclusive. You can't hold it at someone's house (I'm pretty sure unless it's chaperoned), you'll have to deal with angry ignorant parents, stereotyping, people who come just to crash the session, etc. I would suggest that you keep it unsanctioned, and just form your own private club if that's what you want to do.
Kail 11-04-04, 01:47 AM	What Martryn said is right on. A teacher as a sponcer is a must, as well as enough participants to make it a viable club. Open it to all roleplaying, lets in more member. Being based in Georgia is no worse than where I started out at. South eastern Kentucky, small town, small school. With a teacher's help as sponcer, we formed a RPG club, twenty two or three members started it out. We met once a month offically as part of the school's 'club day' to play, hang out etc. Drafted a club constitution, just like many of the other clubs such as FHA and BETA had in place. Even used a Dungeon tourny mod. to hold our own little tourny. A new, 2nd ed PHB 1st place, a set of Dragon Lance Cronical's novels 2nd, a fat bag of dice for 3rd. Mind you this was 14 years ago, but it was still great. I've got that PHB now, given to me by the winner before he joined the Navy. It was signed by the club officers and the sponcer. Not worth a dime, the spine is gone, but its in one piece other wise and holds great sentimental value. Kail
Bedevere 11-04-04, 04:00 AM	Not an american, so I don't know, BUT........ Doesn't the constitution grant you the right to religious freedom to worship whoever and however you please? Stopping an activity because it is satanic would violate that right, by defenition, since the worship of satan has been an accepted religion for a long time now. Example. Recently in the british news, was the case of a British navy vessel that now has to have a satanic temple on board, due to a satan worshipping crewman complaining. Problem with this is, that the launching ceremony includes the words "God bless this ship, and all who sail in her". :D
Azual 11-04-04, 07:37 AM	while this IS georgia, none of my players seem to like the ldea of holding their meetings at another house and my Mom is really getting tired of having to clean EVERY Staurday (I dont know why she a:doesnt asks me for help or b: cleans at all, our house is pretty clean anyway.) so i thought "hey lets go to shcool and just use a classroom!" i didnt realize that there were so many people i couln't invite to my house becuase they didnt know my mom, so ym friend and i decided to start a "DnD Club" I bet i can convince ym pricipal!
Cantankerous 11-04-04, 08:07 AM	Not an american, so I don't know, BUT........ Doesn't the constitution grant you the right to religious freedom to worship whoever and however you please? Stopping an activity because it is satanic would violate that right, by defenition, since the worship of satan has been an accepted religion for a long time now. Example. Recently in the british news, was the case of a British navy vessel that now has to have a satanic temple on board, due to a satan worshipping crewman complaining. Problem with this is, that the launching ceremony includes the words "God bless this ship, and all who sail in her". :D The unfortunate reality is that the "land of the Free" is not really as free itself, especially in human rights areas, as the vast majority of Europe and while in theory, with the laws that are in place in the US, this shouldn't be the case, in most US communities exactly such claptrap as this young man is worried about is all too common. I know that when I first moved to Europe the largest culture shock aspect for me was how much less restrictive society was here and how much better the legal system works in most of the places in Europe I've been as a whole. In Austria for instance it is ILLEGAL for parents to beat their children and while it of course does still occur, it is FAR less prevalent here than anywhere I ever lived in the US. Part of this is because of the legal system and how it is structured but part of it is that Austrians as a whole simply will not have with it that children are smacked or otherwise abused in public. The net result of all of this is that the laws actually DO extend to the children as well as to the adults and are accepted as fact that this will, at least generally, be so. In the US however it is still almost common to see some screaming kid in the mall getting backhanded by mom or dad, blatantly and without much thought to what they are doing. Also, local religious organizations have tremendous subtle power in the US, far more than you might expect, and disproportionate to their size because people who belong to church groups tend to exercise their vote in a higher ratio than those who are not members of such groups and the politician who wants to stay in office HAS TO listen more carefully to what they want than to what the silent majority wants. This OFTEN is a poitive thing in individual communities, but there are enough negative aspects of it as well. One of those is the type of very real concern that our OP here stated. The theory is that the laws extend to both children and their parents in the US, but in practice it just isn't so in too many cases. It's one of the few things about my country that I am actively ashamed of and fought for more than a decade against until I moved overseas for business and personal reasons. Isshia
Arquinsiel 11-04-04, 08:28 AM	Well having gone to a jesuit run school in Ireland I know that oveall the catholic church has no problem with the game whatsoever. One priest actually professed interest and spent many an hour trying to learn rules before he gave up due to too many other comitments. I found the closest thing to trouble came from older students who didn't know of my reputation (in the stage crew, a notouriosly hard-drinking, womanizing and generally anti-social group I, a tee-totaler with profound respect for the fairer sex was refered to as a god for lack of **** taking). Anyone who complained about my methods of getting them to leave us in peace was usually told that they shouldn't have ****** me off by whatever teacher they went to. Admittedly I enjoyed a huge amount of leway there by generally being reasonable and polite to everyone and my opinion and judgement had been established as reasonably sound at that point so maybe it's not possible for everyone to do this. Worst comes to worst try your local library.
CzarGarrett 11-04-04, 08:51 AM	Don't call it D&D club. Call it a Role Playing Club. Pick up some of the more 'Christian friendly' systems for show, if necessary. Then play D&D as the primary game.
Cantankerous 11-04-04, 09:17 AM	Calling it a Role Playing Group rather than a D&D Club I agree with, as that is accurate and gives potential opponents when they find out whats up and determine that they just have to run your life for you for your own good, no ammunion to use against you. However, do NOT grab up games that you don't use as window dressing because that type of prevarication is ALWAYS found out and CAN (the fact that you were deceitful) be used against you. Your hypothetical opponents will claim that the game is already causing yout to lie, which in turn will give them (the opponents) a greater perceived credibility by the people who will be making the decisions. Isshia
Cravensson 11-04-04, 10:46 AM	Just be open and above-board about it. I think you are worrying far too much. Who knows, you may even find out that people where you are will be cool about the whole thing. I don't honestly think I've ever got any crap because of D&D really. One time a bunch of guys were yelling at us and calling us Satanists because they wanted to use the room we had reserved and were playing in, but other than that I can't think of a time where anyone has ever leveled that term at me.
Dungeon Master 11-04-04, 01:44 PM	America IS relatively free, especially compared with countries like China and Saudi Arabia. But many people in Europe don't realize just how religious America is. I mean, 40% of the country still believes the earth was created in 7 days. All you have to do is go 100 miles inland from the either coast and you will find an entirely different America (except for Chicago). America is by and large very Christian with a strong Prostetant tradition, and many of these people do not believe in a secular state.
Azual 11-04-04, 05:08 PM	i have to agree Georgia has a govoner named SONNY PERDUE! This redneck was essentially voted into office because basically he wanted to put the Stars and Bars (The old confederate flag, a symbol of outright slavery and bigotism to afrocan americans everywhere), though im in Atlanta, which is koool bacuse about 70% of Atlanta is not Crazy Redneck. I think i have a chance with these reasons Thanks All :D
Megrim_Lord 11-04-04, 09:03 PM	Well, if worse comes to worse in the end, and you are being bombarded by angry parents because they think you are worshipping satan, slap the 1st amendment in their face and argue your case firmly but rationally, don't give ground. If they are being very pigheaded about it, you and your players should, in all seriousness, get a lawyer that will fight for you. If you bring it to court with a lawyer who has even a shred of sense, you can obliterate whatever cockamaime religious spew the angry parents have to offer, and any reasonable judge would have to rule in your favor. Even if you don't succeed in court, you can always appeal until the cows come home. Heck, if the judge has any sense, you probably won't need a lawyer, because all of the religious drivel being forced down your throat shouldn't have any grounds in court, considering you should have the right to freedom of religion under our 1st amendment, even though it doesn't seem like it at times.
Azual 11-04-04, 10:05 PM	Well, if worse comes to worse in the end, and you are being bombarded by angry parents because they think you are worshipping satan, slap the 1st amendment in their face and argue your case firmly but rationally, don't give ground. If they are being very pigheaded about it, you and your players should, in all seriousness, get a lawyer that will fight for you. If you bring it to court with a lawyer who has even a shred of sense, you can obliterate whatever cockamaime religious spew the angry parents have to offer, and any reasonable judge would have to rule in your favor. Even if you don't succeed in court, you can always appeal until the cows come home. Heck, if the judge has any sense, you probably won't need a lawyer, because all of the religious drivel being forced down your throat shouldn't have any grounds in court, considering you should have the right to freedom of religion under our 1st amendment, even though it doesn't seem like it at times. Hehe See My Cousin Vinny IO think this may juat work!
Mentar 11-04-04, 11:49 PM	The D&D club I was in in High School was called "The Science Fiction Club", we included Gamma World, and other games, and had sci-fi/fantasy movies showing on school club days. By having the club sanctioned we were able to use a classroom afterschool for 2 hours on tuesdays and thirsdays. It was also a way to help show new players the game. We could still gather at friends houses and other locations without chaperones, we just didn't call it a school club event on those days. Yes there were some people who took part in the club that we didn't invite to the non-club events because of personal differences, but having the club at the school allowed teachers and others who were not sure about the game to watch and learn about it. If your group tends toward an evil alignment there could be problems, a few of our players tended to play evil characters, but learned to tone down the evil acts when non-members were around.
Martryn 11-05-04, 12:15 AM	I would recommend against calling it a role-playing club though. Call it a Gaming club, and open up and allow more than just DnD. I recommend board games and card games. If your school doesn't have a chess club, that's something else you could include. This will give you more members, a wider variety of participants, and maybe you can find more people for your DnD group, folks who don't know about the game yet, but are willing to learn. And it never hurts to throw down some Monopoly, Risk, and Axis and Allies with your friends to just mix it up.
nekrolog 11-05-04, 12:41 AM	I would recommend against calling it a role-playing club though. Call it a Gaming club, and open up and allow more than just DnD. I recommend board games and card games. If your school doesn't have a chess club, that's something else you could include. This will give you more members, a wider variety of participants, and maybe you can find more people for your DnD group, folks who don't know about the game yet, but are willing to learn. And it never hurts to throw down some Monopoly, Risk, and Axis and Allies with your friends to just mix it up. This sounds like good advice if you're set on a school sanctioned club.
MadApplejack 11-05-04, 10:37 AM	(I dont know why she a:doesnt asks me for help or b: cleans at all, our house is pretty clean anyway.) A: You shouldn't have to be asked. Show some initiative and do some cleaning. :teach: B: Um...Your house is clean, because she cleans it? :thinks:
ORC_Paradox 11-05-04, 10:07 PM	Er, I'd take a look at your signature and seriously question if it's a good idea to have those quotes. If your attitude of D&D is: "I love my grinning demon, Don't you? Hes so cute and fuzzy and wants to eat your heart while its still bleeding... ... ok so hes not so nice." And "my Favorite Smiley: why? it looks like my BEST FRIEND BOB, the grinning demon. look at him such a cute guy! AWWWWW!" You're going to have a difficult time convincing them to let you play. Remove all references to demons/devils and such from your game and thoughts about the game. Not that you couldn't have those things in your games at your home, but if you're going for a place in a public school, it's best to bury such ideas. Especially in the area you're in.
Ringmereth 11-05-04, 10:15 PM	My school has had a D&D/general gaming club for several years, run by a very awesome band teacher who DMs and supervises (and gets paid for it!). Being in MN, we don't have too many problems with people screaming 'devil worshippers!' and such-mostly, we just get called geeks (which is, of course, entirely factual). Anyway, my suggestions are to call it something besides 'D&D Club', ('Gaming Club' or 'Role-Playing Club' would work nicely) as above, and get a teacher to help you. Ask around and see if any of the teachers ever played D&D or other wargames as a kid, or if any are/were into other forms of gaming. Draw up some rules, get enough potential members, find an appropriate place to play (my group uses the school library and band room), write up a schedule, and suggest a fee, if necessary. Good luck with this, I hope you can figure out a good solution.
Azual 11-06-04, 12:43 PM	A: You shouldn't have to be asked. Show some initiative and do some cleaning. :teach: B: Um...Your house is clean, because she cleans it? :thinks: actually when its not SS Prject time, i usually make sure the clenliness is kept, though she vacuums when the floor is like sprkly. :D Never got my mum but shes my mum
Azual 11-06-04, 12:45 PM	Er, I'd take a look at your signature and seriously question if it's a good idea to have those quotes. If your attitude of D&D is: "I love my grinning demon, Don't you? Hes so cute and fuzzy and wants to eat your heart while its still bleeding... ... ok so hes not so nice." And "my Favorite Smiley: why? it looks like my BEST FRIEND BOB, the grinning demon. look at him such a cute guy! AWWWWW!" You're going to have a difficult time convincing them to let you play. Remove all references to demons/devils and such from your game and thoughts about the game. Not that you couldn't have those things in your games at your home, but if you're going for a place in a public school, it's best to bury such ideas. Especially in the area you're in. WHAT???? Bob is my froend, i like the way he smiles. i mean i think its really disarming that smile. you look at it and its like AWW hes smiling cause hes hppy. then you actually lokk at the situation and see the thousand or so dead bodies, What im trying to say is, if your PC's are the one's killing evil and keeping demonms as pets. KOOL!
ORC_Paradox 11-06-04, 09:22 PM	Heh. Yeah, but what I'm advising is that if you're trying to convince them it's not devil worship, you shouldn't go around with statements such as "I like demons!" I don't think the school board would buy your argument that demons are "kool" if you're surrounded by folks who don't think it's "kool". ;)
WizO_Catoblepas 11-06-04, 11:42 PM	I found that many of the people who I played D&D with during my time in high school I met through joining the chess club. Now this was during the early 1980's, but I found that people who played chess usually also like to play other games like D&D. Unfortunately, many people are fixated with D&D being pagan worship and other ridiculous notions and unfortunately they usually have a knack for attending school board meetings. To me, the point is to play the game with others who enjoy playing without painting a huge bullseye on yourself for the principal and the school board to nail. Just a thought.
Azual 11-07-04, 08:12 AM	Heh. Yeah, but what I'm advising is that if you're trying to convince them it's not devil worship, you shouldn't go around with statements such as "I like demons!" I don't think the school board would buy your argument that demons are "kool" if you're surrounded by folks who don't think it's "kool". ;) :twitch: BOB DOES NOT GO! I dont LIKE DEMONS. I like BOB. Anyway, i like his smile. :D I mean devil worship Does not equal referring to a grining demon as "Cute" now referring Sauron or a Baldrog as "cute" is a bit... wierd
Joni-san 11-07-04, 10:30 AM	If you want to go with this: As mentioned by others call it a Gaming Club and include board- and card-games. Find a teacher to sponsor your club. Get enough members so that it can survive (perhaps even after you graduate) because there's security in numbers. And if you are religious knowing a pastor (priest, monk or whatever the clergy is called) who knows the game or isn't opposed to it might help And google "Mike Stackpole" and "Pulling report" or go here (http://www.theescapist.com/) Good luck trying to negotiate with the zealots. Their oppostition logic, science and even common sence is amazing. In any case I'd recomend that you learn some debating tactics and learn to recognice Intellectual Falacies (e.g. Argumentum Ad Ignorantium, Slippery Slope) as they tend to use them. Then there's the alternative of not going public and playing as you do currently :twocents: Praise the I.P.U :angel: