Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Voldar_Mecorthio 03-26-07, 01:02 AM	The HP system is flawed. For example, let's say you're in a fight with a random commoner and you have a longsword. You hit him in the heart (critical hit), roll maximum (it's a serious crit), and you have a STR of 13, so you deal 18 damage. He dies. Same situation, same rolls, on the master of the local dojo. He's a 13 level monk. By the D&D rules he would survive, but come on. The guy got his freaking heart split open with a sword and he's barely injured. How do you explain this?
a_psh 03-26-07, 01:08 AM	It's abstract. The rules don't tell you that the dojo master didn't get his heart split open with a longsword. They just tell you he suffers some damage and survives. You narrated the heart-splitting on top of the rules. In the first case, the narration fit. In the second case, the narration didn't match what the rules were telling you should be the outcome. Nothing in the rules told you to use that narration, though. I think that's still symptomatic of a potential system problem, but not quite in the way you're thinking about it.
swallowyersoul 03-26-07, 01:11 AM	even from 1st ed, the hit points text has said you'd describe both strikes differently. a solid sword lunge at a commoner would skewer the poor bugger. he'd die with steel in his heart. the same sword lunge at a 13th level monk would graze his chest as he turned at the last second. still a nasty gash, but nothing life threatening. as the last poster said, it's abstract. it helps me to think of it this way: your attack roll determines if you did any damage at all the damage roll determines how nice a shot you got in. their hit points determine how much damage you did. a kill shot on a novice is a scratch on an expert. that's even sort of realistic.
a_psh 03-26-07, 01:20 AM	a kill shot on a novice is a scratch on an expert. that's even sort of realistic.Although in real life, abstractly it might work more like this: I'm on the offense in a fight. I make an attack. You attempt to parry (or block with a shield, or dive out of the way, or beat my weapon, or something). The difference in how successful we are determines whether I can successfully hurt you, and how much. If I win by a lot, I've injured you. If you win by a lot, you might claim the initiative (go on the offense) or pull off some kind of trick like a disarm or counter. If you win by a little, you're fended off my attack but can't break my offensive momentum quite yet. It's all about your defensive skill (which is almost the same as your offensive skill, really -- all part of the same weapons training). Which HP represent, but kinda weirdly.
swallowyersoul 03-26-07, 01:26 AM	agreed. weirdly, but effectively. hp do a great job of what they're supposed to do: abstractly create a limiter to how long a character can stay in a fight. they're terrible at many things they're not supposed to do: realistically track what happens to somebody in a sword fight, for example.
a_psh 03-26-07, 01:29 AM	To summarize: Think of HP mostly as the stamina to avoid attacks and you'll be mostly okay. "On hit" abilities muddle this a bit.
Tempest Stormwind 03-26-07, 01:32 AM	I often cite Five Nations here, actually -- they say flat-out in there that duels are often fought to first blood (10% of maximum hit points). Think about that one for a minute. Hit points are abstract. A lot of hit points does not mean you can take an axe to the skull and keep on going, nor does it mean the axe could cleave your head open and you keep going. Rather, it means that instead of dying, you're now instead just that much closer to dying, being less able to defend yourself. As flawed as its implementation is, I wish D&D would use at least the fluff for a vitality/wound system. Or better yet, patch up that system and use it from the get-go.
Nived 03-26-07, 01:49 AM	Remember the D&D system is not ment to realistically portray combat. There are other Role Playing Systems that do make that their goal and they tend to be either really really fatal or really complicated, or both. D&D isn't about reality though, it's not ment to simulate reality. The combat system doesn't reflect real combat, it reflects heroic fantasy combat. As such hit points are not a direct indicator of how much damage someone took, just how much fight is left in them after the attack.
johnhansen 03-26-07, 02:06 AM	It is important to remember that some times a person can take a sword stab to the body or fall off a cliff and live to tell about it. It is just bizarrely minute differences that can mean the difference between life and death. In D&D higher level characters are the ones who this happens to. In real life people die from falling in the shower and other people live after having their legs and one arm blown off and the rest of their body burned.
Millennium 03-26-07, 07:24 AM	The HP system is a basic abstract measure of your ability to stave off death, not necessarily how hurt you are (though that can certainly be a part of it). If you want a more detailed system of combat they're available; meanwhile, please stop proselytizing.
runestar 03-26-07, 08:26 AM	Well, it also means that at higher lvs, a barb with 200+ hp can go for a short dip in a pool of acid or lava naked and live to tell the tale. I would sure like to see how that is expressed in abstract terms...:P
Geoste 03-26-07, 08:32 AM	the damage roll determines how nice a shot you got in. Or it may be taken to mean: the damage roll determines how nice a number of shots you got in... ... during the combat round. One attack roll does not necessarily represent one single swing or firing of a weapon. Well, it also means that at higher lvs, a barb with 200+ hp can go for a short dip in a pool of acid or lava naked and live to tell the tale. I would sure like to see how that is expressed in abstract terms...:P Luck. Sheer dumb luck. The barb got himself out of the lava rather quickly, or he landed on a part of the lava where there was semi-solid rock on top of the red hot stuff. Something like that.
Evil DM Mk3 03-26-07, 08:32 AM	You know those scenes in the films when the hero and villain spend a long time clashing blades back and forth? Many of those blows would have hit in DnD but are just wearing down the characters, rather than injuring them.
CharlieRock 03-26-07, 08:41 AM	The HP system is flawed. You don't say. :whatsthis It is rather simplistic, but combat is already more complicated then I like, and deeper rules for wound-systems would really drag out an already overly long process.
Leo 03-26-07, 08:50 AM	If you try to apply real logic to D&D, all you get is an headache. First, next time you find something in the real world that somehows resembles a lv13 monk tell me, like, totatlly immune to poison and capable of running 280 feet in 6 seconds. Next, combat in D&D isn't only against other humanoids. There is fire, big nasty dragons that will swallow on you, fire explosions that would burn simple people to crisps, rockfalls, lighting, etc, etc. The only way you can adventure in such an high fantasy world then is by having those HP thingys that basically sho you hard you are to take down. Like, when your fighter is all sleeping, cup of graced(cut his throat), and somehow still lives, or when you swim in lava, like noted above. I, honestly, like the idea of my character having half his guts splattered in the floor and his skin and miscles all ripped, bones broken under the chared flesh and still fighting like it's nothing with him:P
CharlieRock 03-26-07, 08:57 AM	http://www.cruisegazing.com/RPG_Motivational/HitPoints.jpg from http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=264472
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-26-07, 09:16 AM	The HP system is flawed. For example, let's say you're in a fight with a random commoner and you have a longsword. You hit him in the heart (critical hit), roll maximum (it's a serious crit), and you have a STR of 13, so you deal 18 damage. He dies. Same situation, same rolls, on the master of the local dojo. He's a 13 level monk. By the D&D rules he would survive, but come on. The guy got his freaking heart split open with a sword and he's barely injured. How do you explain this? Cos he didn't get his heart split open with a sword, obviously. Hit points are an abtstract system that represent a character's ability to absorb and avoid damage. When you see a picture of some warrior guy covered in dozens of wounds, that is hit points in action. Any one of those hits would have clove a commoner in two, but our experienced fighter is more adept at not getting hit, of dodging and twisting out of the way, thus turning a potential killing blow into a mere flesh wound. In short, it is not a flaw in the system. Rather, you understanding of the system is flawed.
CharlieRock 03-26-07, 09:23 AM	When you see a picture of some warrior guy covered in dozens of wounds, that is hit points in action. http://www.cruisegazing.com/RPG_Motivational/HP.jpg
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-26-07, 09:50 AM	*snip* I just noticed that he has a bloody shovel in his back.
Zumarai 03-26-07, 10:01 AM	You could describe all wounds as superficial until you lose that last hit point.
Grand Theft Otto 03-26-07, 11:44 AM	I'm a fan of the HP/wound system used in various other D20 games. It works better for stuff like falling IMO (since you cant easily dodge or parry the ground).
CharlieRock 03-26-07, 12:21 PM	I just noticed that he has a bloody shovel in his back. 'Tis only a flesh wound ... :D
Evil DM Mk3 03-26-07, 01:19 PM	For a bit of realism I once tried a rule wher you where considered shaken (not as a fear effect though) when you are at <10% of hp. Was more trouble than it was worth.
khyron1144 03-26-07, 01:41 PM	1) The HP system is flawed. 2) For example, let's say you're in a fight with a random commoner and you have a longsword. 3) You hit him in the heart (critical hit), roll maximum (it's a serious crit), and you have a STR of 13, so you deal 18 damage. 4) He dies. 5) Same situation, same rolls, on the master of the local dojo. 6) He's a 13 level monk. 7) By the D&D rules he would survive, but come on. 8) The guy got his freaking heart split open with a sword and he's barely injured. 9) How do you explain this? 1) You don't say. Comes as news to me. 2) Why am I in a fight with a random commoner? Where do you find a random commoner? What makes him a random commoner? Is he like Two Face and has a compulsion to flip a coin for every decision? Why do I have a long sword? I'm bad with the whole coordination and athletics thing and I've never used a sword. 3) How'd I hit him at all? I'm bad with the whole coordination and athletics thing and I've never used a sword. How do you figure I have a Strength of 13? 13 What? What part of me has that strength? In weight training in high school, I benched about 100 pounds, but I could power lift over 250 pounds with my legs. 4) I'm a murderer now? I don't remember that. 5) Why would I fight the master of a local dojo? I'm bad with the whole coordination and athletics thing and I've never used a sword. I believe I would get my arse handed to me. 6) Where does one find a level 13 monk? 7) Oh this a D&D situation? Why didn't you say so at the start? How'd I get there? 8) The phrase it's only a flesh wound comes to mind. 9) The phrase it's only a flesh wound comes to mind.
Kursk 03-26-07, 03:13 PM	Same situation, same rolls, on the master of the local dojo. He's a 13 level monk. By the D&D rules he would survive, but come on. The guy got his freaking heart split open with a sword and he's barely injured. How do you explain this? Because you barely scratched him. I wish they had left the HP explanation in the books that was used in 1st Ed. It described it very well.
OravennasBrother 03-26-07, 03:39 PM	The HP system is flawed. Along with the AC system, the Save system, the LA system, etc.
Evil DM Mk3 03-26-07, 03:49 PM	Along with the AC system, the Save system, the LA system, etc. Yay DnD are broken!
Penguintine 03-26-07, 03:51 PM	One thing I remember reading in some D&D book, somewhere, was that hit points do not represent your character's physical health. The way it described it was more of a combination of physical health, luck, speed, endurance, etc. This is supposedly explains why an adventurerer might be able to "withstand" an attack that a commonor would not.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-26-07, 03:51 PM	Yay DnD are broken! I believe that should read "D&D is teh borken!!1!11!" ;)
Zaistars69 03-26-07, 04:03 PM	.... and other people live after having their legs and one arm blown off and the rest of their body burned. ooooh, starwars referance. Good one. :)
Leo 03-26-07, 05:07 PM	People...IT'S D&D! There are dragons, magic, you swim in lava and walk over the walls! All the laws of reality are thrown out of the window so we can have a good time! It's that hard to believe your character has 20 pointy things stuffed in his body and he's still breathing?
a_psh 03-26-07, 07:47 PM	It's that hard to believe your character has 20 pointy things stuffed in his body and he's still breathing?Yes, if it happens in every fight. That's why you start describing hit point damage as something more abstract, something other than "hits." Someone already quoted Five Nations's "10% = first blood" guideline.
Leo 03-26-07, 08:08 PM	Yes, if it happens in every fight. That's why you start describing hit point damage as something more abstract, something other than "hits." Someone already quoted Five Nations's "10% = first blood" guideline. Yeah, and then your character has is throat slit while he's sleeping and that barely hurts him:P Or you fall into lava and get out some rounds later. Anyway, what abstract hit points don't explain is this: Commoner:Oh god, I'm badly hurt, please help me! Cleric:Cure minor wounds! Commoner:Oh, thank you sir, you've completely healed me! Barbarian with over 200 hp:Good, now's my turn. I'm only scratched, not even bleeding, so it will not be too hard... Cleric:Cure minor wounds! Barbarian:WTF? I barely sensed anything! Are you trying to cheat me?
devinmdp 03-26-07, 08:30 PM	And there you have it. The flaw is really in the curing system, not the hp system. What should happen, logically, is that the various cure spells cure a % of your total hp. In that way, a person's "Physical" hit points would be represented by say, his original hit points at 1st level spread out through his entire stock of hit points. Frex, say a 1st level human fighter with a 16 Con starts with 13 hp. Those would, essentially, be his physical hit points forever unless he raises his Con. If, at 10th level, this same guy has 90 hit points, then basically 13/90 or every 6.5 hit points of damage he takes would cause 1 point of physical damage. In fact, theoretically, you could say that physicial hit points are 1D4 plus Con, since presumably the difference in hp between a commoner and a fighter even at 1st level represents skill and luck. In any event, the reason the cure spell fix is bad is that it simply makes the game much less survivable at lower levels. To summarize, I see no problem with hit points. The problem that makes my logic detector PING is with cure spells. Devin
a_psh 03-26-07, 10:57 PM	Yeah, and then your character has is throat slit while he's sleeping and that barely hurts him:P Or you fall into lava and get out some rounds later. Anyway, what abstract hit points don't explain is this: ...That's cuz most RPGs just make up some combat mechanics that are halfway decent for man-on-man fighting and then just try to crappily generalize them to every other possible situation. Basically, I agree with your thesis, which is that there's no way to actually stick with the rules and get verisimilar situations out of them. People succeed in doing this by selectively reinterpreting sometimes (e.g. HP is mostly okay if you only use it for hitting people with swords), but, on the whole, it is a failure.
CraggleRock 03-27-07, 09:09 AM	And there you have it. The flaw is really in the curing system, not the hp system. What should happen, logically, is that the various cure spells cure a % of your total hp. In that way, a person's "Physical" hit points would be represented by say, his original hit points at 1st level spread out through his entire stock of hit points. Frex, say a 1st level human fighter with a 16 Con starts with 13 hp. Those would, essentially, be his physical hit points forever unless he raises his Con. If, at 10th level, this same guy has 90 hit points, then basically 13/90 or every 6.5 hit points of damage he takes would cause 1 point of physical damage. In fact, theoretically, you could say that physicial hit points are 1D4 plus Con, since presumably the difference in hp between a commoner and a fighter even at 1st level represents skill and luck. In any event, the reason the cure spell fix is bad is that it simply makes the game much less survivable at lower levels. To summarize, I see no problem with hit points. The problem that makes my logic detector PING is with cure spells. Devin How about if CLW cured one roll of your last gained Hit Dice, then a Barbarian could potentially be "healed" for up to 12 points, where as a wizard, for whom 12 points whould repesent pretty critical damage would need something like Cure Medium Wounds or greater?
starfire311 03-27-07, 09:21 AM	the problem is that, D&D says HP are an abstraction, but are in no way treated that way by the mechanics. Curing, falling, and submersion in nasty stuff like acid and lava, being the most glaring moves away from the abstraction. If you treat HPs as actual damage capacity and not an abstraction, the mechanics will not break down, but the flavor will, if you treat them as an abstraction, and not actual damage, then the mechanics will breakdown, you just need to treat them as an abstraction in some cases, and actual damage capacity in others, it is impossible to be consistant. I think WP/VP makes it a much more tenable situation.
runestar 03-27-07, 10:29 AM	I have watched shows where the protagonist continued fighting even after he was hit a lot of times, with arrows and swords sticking out of his body...So it isn't really that great of a stretch....
Someone 03-27-07, 01:18 PM	I tend to look at it from the same view as the various cure spells. That is, you can only take so many "wounds" of various intensity before you're done. Which also describes how hard it would be to get back to full strength. Sure, the elven wizard might be out of it after just two "light" wounds (around 10 hp), but the dwarven fighter can withstand several "serious" wounds (40 hp) and keep going, but its probably a good way of describing the damage. "How fare you?" "Its a moderate wound, I've had worse..."
GraveDigger 03-27-07, 01:23 PM	I like the D20 modern HP system, if you take dmg equal to or greater than your Con score you have to make a fort save, if you fail than you fall to -1hp. So if you have 200 hp and a con score of 18 and take 18 or more dmg you have to make a fort save or fall into dying. Not a flawless system but one I like to pull into DnD.
devinmdp 03-27-07, 02:04 PM	How about if CLW cured one roll of your last gained Hit Dice, then a Barbarian could potentially be "healed" for up to 12 points, where as a wizard, for whom 12 points whould repesent pretty critical damage would need something like Cure Medium Wounds or greater? I don't see that as helping address the problem I raised. I don't see that much of a problem in the fact that a given cure spell is relatively more effective for a wizard than a fighter. Yes, that is a strangeness, but much less so than the problem that a given cure spell is much more effective for a 1st level character than a 10th level character. Devin
Evil DM Mk3 03-27-07, 02:13 PM	Yeah, and then your character has is throat slit while he's sleeping and that barely hurts him:P Coup de grace! Anything else is a swing at his sleeping form that misses as his fighting sences recognise the sound of an incomming blade... The problem with introdicing save at threshold rules is that on adverige damadge is much MUCH higher in DnD. Even massive damadge is dodgy at ligh levels as it turns the game into a game of Russhian natural 1s.
Salla 03-27-07, 03:12 PM	As stated many times, HP do not just represent physical resilience. I have no problem, for example, of a player deciding that any and all HP damage he takes for the duration of an entire fight is last-minute dodges and parries, with the exception of 'carrier' attacks such as a poisoned blade. Dramatic sense matters for a lot. The tough-as-nails-no-tougher-than-that Barbarian might simply shrug off or take hits, but the nimble swashbuckler could simply parry them, dodge them, or take light scratches until he's finally worn down to the 'AAH! MY LIVER!' moment. As a curious note, the one WotC game I'm aware of that used Wounds/Vitality (Star Wars) is actually abandoning it in the upcoming edition. Link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20070322jc101 They are adding a 'condition track' that, essentially, represents fatigue. As your HP decrease, you start taking penalties until you can take a couple of rounds to 'catch your breath'.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-27-07, 03:15 PM	I don't see that as helping address the problem I raised. I don't see that much of a problem in the fact that a given cure spell is relatively more effective for a wizard than a fighter. Yes, that is a strangeness, but much less so than the problem that a given cure spell is much more effective for a 1st level character than a 10th level character. It seems obvious to me. A cure light wounds doesn't do as much for a high-level PC cas he has a lot more wounds on him that need curing. Think of it like this: a CLW spell is a bandage. It does wonders for the low-level PC who has a single wound that needs tending, not so much for the high-level PC that has 30 wounds on him. The bandage only works on a single little ouchy, so the low-level PC is up to snuff immediately while the high-level PC will need a lot more bandages to take care of all his boo-boos.
mysticpot31 03-27-07, 04:30 PM	Hit points is a combination of physical punishment, luck, divine and magical protection(the higher level you are the more the gods notice you and tend to favour you) and skill. In real life people have died from falling down a few steps of stairs(maybe 1-2 points of dam) to being stabbed multiple times( I have heard of a girl stabbed 30 times, now average 2 hit points from each hit and that is 60 points of damage!!!!!)and survive. There is no sense in worrying about the system being flawed, it has worked very well for the past 30 years and a realistic system would be a horrible idea. Would you want your 20th level fighter killed by a spear thrust from a kobold? and your characters would be in a sorry state as limbs and such would prob be lost from the multiple fights( A LOT of fights!!!!) that your characters are in. This was stressed in ADnD 1st edition and it said that it is heroic fantasy and that someone looking to put a lot of realism in that should probably find another hobby.
starfire311 03-27-07, 06:47 PM	It seems obvious to me. A cure light wounds doesn't do as much for a high-level PC cas he has a lot more wounds on him that need curing. Think of it like this: a CLW spell is a bandage. It does wonders for the low-level PC who has a single wound that needs tending, not so much for the high-level PC that has 30 wounds on him. The bandage only works on a single little ouchy, so the low-level PC is up to snuff immediately while the high-level PC will need a lot more bandages to take care of all his boo-boos. exactly a wound fatal wound at 1st level is cured completly by a CLW while, a small wound at high levels, can't be cured by a CLW, it makes perfect sense, aparently as you level up you become more resistant to positive engery.
Spikes01k 03-27-07, 07:26 PM	You could describe all wounds as superficial until you lose that last hit point. Yes or luck, luck is also supposed to be a factor. A large freekin boulder nearly misses you. An actual hit of any sort would have broken your body in two. You lose all but 12 hp but you might still be in tact.
Illithid_Tentacles 03-27-07, 07:27 PM	It's a GAME. Of COURSE it's not going to be totally realistic. If you want realistic combat, go join a fencing club or something. Try GURPS, it has a realistic combat system. Roleplaying games require a certain amount of suspension of disbelief- all you have to do is go ahead and extend that to HP. The HP system is the way it is because getting killed by some idiot getting in a lucky shot sucks. And as has been mentioned, games with realistic combat systems tend to be VERY DEADLY. I don't care for my character dying every other combat or so, thank you.
DoveArrow 03-27-07, 07:33 PM	My favorite part about threads like this is that the poster never seems to realize that this isn't news to us.
Kojiro James 03-27-07, 09:21 PM	My favorite part about threads like this is that the poster never seems to realize that this isn't news to us. That's my favorite part too. CAPTAIN OBVIOUS TO THE RESCUE!!!
Euclid 03-27-07, 10:11 PM	The funny thing is, a wizard who is never attacked but levels up exclusively through standing in one place and tossing fireballs at the enemies can survive being immersed in a pool of acid for longer than a commoner, even though he may have led a much less rough life than said commoner. And level effects how long you can survive immersion in lava. Why? Is there somthing about monk training that makes you more able to survive having all your flesh burnt away unavoidably? Why can't I learn how to do that, damnit?!
CharlieRock 03-28-07, 02:14 AM	The HP system is the way it is because getting killed by some idiot getting in a lucky shot sucks. And as has been mentioned, games with realistic combat systems tend to be VERY DEADLY. I don't care for my character dying every other combat or so, thank you. But ... but ... that's not realistic. LoL
Sphyre 03-28-07, 03:54 AM	The HP system is flawed. For example, let's say you're in a fight with a random commoner and you have a longsword. You hit him in the heart (critical hit), roll maximum (it's a serious crit), and you have a STR of 13, so you deal 18 damage. He dies. Same situation, same rolls, on the master of the local dojo. He's a 13 level monk. By the D&D rules he would survive, but come on. The guy got his freaking heart split open with a sword and he's barely injured. How do you explain this? While I agree that the HP system is "flawed," I do not agree with your deductive process to arrive at your conclusion. You assumed that a critical hit with max damage is being hit in the heart. You're not actually swinging a sword, you're rolling a die. The die determines whether it's a critical hit. It doesn't tell what type, but it's a critical hit.. What does this mean? Basically it means you have the opportunity to score more damage. The flavor that it's assigned by the game is that "you struck a vital area," nothing more, nothing less. You can assign whatever flavor you want to the HP system, but truely, it's math. How you interpret that math into your game description of what happens (the first crit on the commoner being to the heart, while the crit on the monk was a place on his chest he didn't protect for example) is upto you. In your example, you could simply assign the flavor of the critical hit as a deep gash. What about someone who deals 19 damage with a critical, but compare that to someone who dealt 25 damage with a normal hit? Does that mean that the person doing 25 damage is carving out the person's heart for a few minutes before they actually die? The flaw in your argument is the following: The author defines one thing. The author proceeds to say "assume this about the definition" then concludes "therefore the first definition is flawed" due to the assumption that really has nothing to do with the definition. You cannot claim that an idea is flawed based on something you added to the base idea due to the fact that the flaw may been (and most likely is) the cause of the flaw, not the idea itself. (It most likely is, if you get a different result without the additional assumption)
Zumarai 03-28-07, 06:50 AM	But ... but ... that's not realistic. LoL Don't ever say that word again!
Evil DM Mk3 03-28-07, 09:38 AM	If you want realistic combat, go join a fencing club or something. Try GURPS, it has a realistic combat system. Gods I remeber my first GURPS knight. Got killed after 2:30 mins of game time by a pesant throwing a rock.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-28-07, 09:50 AM	exactly a wound fatal wound at 1st level is cured completly by a CLW while, a small wound at high levels, can't be cured by a CLW, it makes perfect sense, aparently as you level up you become more resistant to positive engery. >ignores sarcasm< No, it makes perfect sense cos the spell cures a light wound. A single light wound can be fatal to a low-level PC but a higher level one barely even notices it and can take many dozens of similar wounds before falling. It takes more paint to cover a big thing than a small one, it takes more plaster to fill a hundred holes rather than five holes, and it take more low-level healing spells to heal a lot of wounds rather than one or two of them. I simply don't understand how this is difficult to comprehend. :confused:
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-28-07, 09:51 AM	My favorite part about threads like this is that the poster never seems to realize that this isn't news to us. :rofl:
Evil DM Mk3 03-28-07, 10:31 AM	My favorite part about threads like this is that the poster never seems to realize that this isn't news to us. Guys guys guys guys! Deija-vu is in the Psionic book twice! And the 100 random NPC traits lack the entry the "no senc eof humour" tells you to look at! And Spiked chains are scary with large creatures and combat reflexes! And paldins need too many high stats! And Druids are strong! And you roll d20s in this game!!!!!!111!!!11one!!!22!!!!1!two Edit:I wish to make it clear that this post is directed at the general meme of these kind of threads, not at the OP or indeed any one person.
Salla 03-28-07, 11:37 AM	Guys guys guys guys! Deija-vu is in the Psionic book twice! And the 100 random NPC traits lack the entry the "no senc eof humour" tells you to look at! And Spiked chains are scary with large creatures and combat reflexes! And paldins need too many high stats! And Druids are strong! And you roll d20s in this game!!!!!!111!!!11one!!!22!!!!1!two Edit:I wish to make it clear that this post is directed at the general meme of these kind of threads, not at the OP or indeed any one person. You forgot 'Fighters suck'. :)
Nived 03-28-07, 12:54 PM	D&D isn't realistic. D&D is HEROIC.
Evil DM Mk3 03-28-07, 12:56 PM	D&D isn't realistic. D&D is HEROIC. Ding, we have a winner!
getgoldcardsoul 03-28-07, 01:43 PM	And there you have it. The flaw is really in the curing system, not the hp system.It may not even be that the cure system is flawed so much as the cure spell names are misnomers. After all, up the levels they all just summon stronger (but safe) levels of positive energy, which just has a particular effect (healing) on a living creature's body. Perhaps a tougher person, one able to bear more scratches and heavier wounds than a commoner, just needs more of the good stuff to be whole again. Although the small amount of positive energy granted through "cure light wounds" would completely restore most commoners, a hulking barbarian benefits only a little---maybe one or two of his wounds close up or a bigger one closes a little bit. But what to actually call these spells? The names we have now communicate the strength of the spell quite well...
getgoldcardsoul 03-28-07, 02:12 PM	My favorite part about threads like this is that the poster never seems to realize that this isn't news to us.What difference does it make? In this case, he had a legitimate question. A decent discussion came from it. Ha ha, stupid poster! Honestly, if it's so funny to everyone else, someone arrogant PLEASE attempt to make a stickied post describing each and every single "forbidden topic," so that newer people won't be harrassed when they discover something that may be obvious to a few other people? Or better yet, just list who's allowed to start threads. Then have your thread closed and wonder why.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-28-07, 03:12 PM	Honestly, if it's so funny to everyone else, someone arrogant PLEASE attempt to make a stickied post describing each and every single "forbidden topic," so that newer people won't be harrassed when they discover something that may be obvious to a few other people? Or better yet, just list who's allowed to start threads. Then have your thread closed and wonder why. The topic itself isn't funny, rather I found DoveArrow's post amusing. She hit just the right note of dry ironicism that tickles my funnybone.
starfire311 03-28-07, 04:03 PM	>ignores sarcasm< No, it makes perfect sense cos the spell cures a light wound. A single light wound can be fatal to a low-level PC but a higher level one barely even notices it and can take many dozens of similar wounds before falling. It takes more paint to cover a big thing than a small one, it takes more plaster to fill a hundred holes rather than five holes, and it take more low-level healing spells to heal a lot of wounds rather than one or two of them. I simply don't understand how this is difficult to comprehend. :confused: a "fatal" wound at 1st level commoner would be probably be a solid blow to the torso or head with from a weapon like a longsword for a massive 5 points of damage, you are saying that a level 20 dwarf barbarian can take 20-50 of these solid blows to the torso or head from a longsword. If the wound is life threatening at level 1 the same wound should be life threatening at level 20, if I get stabbed through the heart with a sword at level 1 and a simple CLW is able to save me and bring me to full HP, if applied fast enough, then if I get stabbed through the heart at level 20 it should do the same thing.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-28-07, 04:08 PM	a "fatal" wound at 1st level commoner would be probably be a solid blow to the torso or head with from a weapon like a longsword for a massive 5 points of damage, you are saying that a level 20 dwarf barbarian can take 20-50 of these solid blows to the torso or head from a longsword. No. What I - and the D&D hit point system for that matter - am saying is that that 5 point hit is not a "solid blow to the torso or head" on a high-level PC. If the wound is life threatening at level 1 the same wound should be life threatening at level 20, Not in D&D. if I get stabbed through the heart with a sword at level 1 and a simple CLW is able to save me and bring me to full HP, if applied fast enough, then if I get stabbed through the heart at level 20 it should do the same thing. Yes, and getting stabbed through the heart at level 20 is not a 5 point wound, it is something like a 100+ point wound. Again, I simply don't understand how this is difficult to comprehend.
a_psh 03-28-07, 04:59 PM	Yes, and getting stabbed through the heart at level 20 is not a 5 point wound, it is something like a 100+ point wound.Then why are we calling a 5-point wound a "light" wound and a ~25-point wound a "critical" one?
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-28-07, 05:27 PM	Then why are we calling a 5-point wound a "light" wound and a ~25-point wound a "critical" one? Cos they are. A 5 pt wound it a light wound, it is just that a light wound is a lot more deadly to a low-level PC.
a_psh 03-28-07, 05:32 PM	Cos they are. A 5 pt wound it a light wound, it is just that a light wound is a lot more deadly to a low-level PC.Okay, please backpedal a bit and lay out your thinking more explicitly. By which I mean define what a "light wound" looks like in terms of the narrative of play rather than the mechanics. I think that'll clear things up.
enlightened 03-28-07, 05:39 PM	Over the years, people not understanding how to interpret the Hit Point system has become one of my biggest pet peeves. It is not possible to know how to describe the severity of a wound by looking only at the damage total. How severe is an 18 HP wound? That depends on how many HP the creature has when fully healed. Wound severity is based on the percentage of HPs lost (based on total HP, not current HP), and not on the actual number lost. An 18 HP wound to a 4 HP 1st level commoner (450% of his HP total) is on the magnitude of literaly being cut in half. Whereas, for a 200 HP high level barabarian, an 18 HP wound(less than 10% of his HP total) is a scratch on the arm. I think one of the problems that keeps people from understanding this is the use of the word "critical". In DND, the word "critical" has a very special meaning. It doesn't mean severe, rather it just means more damage than normal. The rule of thumb that I follow is that if a single wound does 10% of the creature's fully healed HP total or less then I describe it as a light wound. 30% or less is moderate. 50% or less is serious. And 70% or less is critical. These numbers are not hard and fast rules though. They're just guidelines to help interpret the severity of a particular blow on a particular creature. In short, an 18 HP blow means vastly different things to different creatures, and don't get caught up on the word "Critical" so much because it just means double (sometimes triple) damage. And depending on how many HPs they had to begin with even double damage might not be very ...damaging. So, a blow is only truly critical (in the true non-DND sense of the word)if it takes away a high percentage of the creature's total (not current) HP.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-28-07, 06:24 PM	And there you have it. The flaw is really in the curing system, not the hp system. Nope, and here's why. Simply put, as one gets tougher, they get more resistant to positive energy, just as they get more resistant to negative energy. There. Makes sense.
Evil DM Mk3 03-28-07, 06:32 PM	Alternatively if we take as read that hp is not-equal to physical toughness but also resiliance, guile, luck and training then what we have here is cure spells not just affecting the body. When the party fights they wear themsleves down, that luck, guile, determination it all fades. They are drained. Curing does not just revitalise the body but the mind and soul too. It refreshes, re-affirms and gets the fighter back ready for combat in his mind, his heart and his physical form.
High Octane 03-28-07, 06:37 PM	Cures are like booze. After taking them over and over they have less effect and you need more to be happy. Or at least to stop crying.
starfire311 03-28-07, 06:41 PM	Cos they are. A 5 pt wound it a light wound, it is just that a light wound is a lot more deadly to a low-level PC. what exactly is a light wound? how would you narate a light wound. DM: Ok you got you just got a light wound, take 8 points of damage. PC: light wound, that drops me from max to neg 5, that wasn't light, I think that is quite severe. DM: nope it was light, only 8 points, barely scratched your hand. PC: then why am I lying in a pool of my own blood on the ground if it is a light wound. DM: no blood, didnt even break your skin really, it was just a light wound. PC: I'd hate to see a moderate wound. And now for critically wounded. DM: ok this is pretty bad, you jsut got a critical wound for 28 points of damage. PC: Laughs, 28 points that is nothing, I have over 500 HPs, that is like cutting myself shaving. DM: nope it is critical, your intestines are spead across the battle ground. PC: yeah right, I only have to get hit "critically" another 15 times before I need to get worried.
Voran 03-28-07, 09:23 PM	I have watched shows where the protagonist continued fighting even after he was hit a lot of times, with arrows and swords sticking out of his body...So it isn't really that great of a stretch.... I suppose, technically, in DnD such a picture would represent the "Fast Healing" quality or the Damage Reduction quality.
Hakar_Kerarmor 03-29-07, 12:20 AM	then if I get stabbed through the heart at level 20 it should do the same thing. And it does, assuming it takes you above 0 hit points.
Voran 03-29-07, 12:38 AM	To that end the label 'critical hit' is also something rather inaccurate. Essentially it just means "More damaging that usual" rather than "OMG WEESA GONNA DIE!" unless, its taken you below 0. Describing damage effects is definately a skill GMs need to learn. An easy way to start is ensuring that no one, either the GM or the PCs, makes the mistake of describing their intended results as if they had already occurred. Example 1: Flawed way: PC: I stab him through the gonads! Ha Ha I rolled a 20 and confirmed a crit for zomg 34 points of damage! I totally castrate him! DM: Um. No. Better Way: PC: I'm trying to stab him in the nutz. I rolled a 20, confirmed the crit and got 34 points of damage. DM: <Looking over the charsheet of the baddie, seeing he's currently at full hp with 197, then subtracts 34> "You lunge for his groin, your blade skipping across his plated thigh before skittering upwards to gash his leg as he twists away from your attack. He looks rather startled for the moment, as he understands your intent, but that moment passes, and now he looks ******." If the above target had less base HP, the description of damage would be greater, as the attack took a relatively higher portion of his hitpoints. However, no special penalties to the BBEG would apply until you've brought him below 0, or were using some sorta combat feat/maneuver, that would cripple, trip, reduce his movement, whatever. But you have to pay for those.
Voran 03-29-07, 12:47 AM	Example 2: Flawed way: DM: Lolz. Teh Barbarian leader totally swings his axe (rolls dice) and hits you in the head for 20 points of damage. You're totally blinded by blood and such! Noobz! PC: Um. No. Better way: The catch here is you usually shouldn't let the PC determine the quality of the hit and describe it away as nothing. Thus, like the previous example, you need to know 1)the PC's current HP and 2)the relation of the damage you rolled to that total. The more a chunk that damage represents, the more graphic you can be with your damage description to the PC. However, this still does not allow you to say things result in the char's maiming, limb loss or otherwise huge body destruction or crippling, unless your BBEG has used a specific feat/combat maneuver to that effect. I've found in some cases I'll describe that the attack has actually missed, but the PC still takes damage. In this case, it would be something like... "The barbarian swings towards your head with his glowing battle axe, you manage to duck away, stepping at the last moment to avoid the cleaving blow, but a shiver runs down your spine as you realize what might have been.........please mark off 25 points from hitpoint total" Usually I only pull this when the character is first taking damage. Your little mystical barrier of luck got a little depleted in that attack. Usually don't do this for Sneak Attack stuff tho.
johnhansen 03-29-07, 12:56 AM	If you insist on letting one creature stab another creature in the heart,not in the heart area but directly in the heart then you are not using RAW so just rule zero they die or rule zero they have to roll the same roll they would for massive damage no matter what the damage really is. But you have just recreated the fun ( sarcasm ) that was 2nd addition called shots. I told my players they could use called shots all they wanted and I would use them just as much, so they only used them in ways that made the scene more dramatic not all the time. Same thing goes for trip and sunder and etc now days, they can really add drama or they can drag out a battle to the point of tedium.
yrogerg 03-29-07, 01:23 AM	Yes, if it happens in every fight. That's why you start describing hit point damage as something more abstract, something other than "hits." Someone already quoted Five Nations's "10% = first blood" guideline. Right. The problem with the common abstractions, though, is that while they work passably for combat situations, they work considerably less well for things such as falling damage, or total immersion in molten lava (a Fighter 20 is somehow able to withstand this for *at least* 6 seconds). They also synergize ...oddly... with AC, DR and Saving throws, given that many are supposed to be abstractions of some of the same things, and interact oddly with Sneak Attack, Undead, and Constructs, which largely change the level of abstraction that's going into HP in those cases.
a_psh 03-29-07, 01:25 AM	Right. The problem with the common abstractions, though, is that while they work passably for combat situations, they work considerably less well for things such as falling damage, or total immersion in molten lava (a Fighter 20 is somehow able to withstand this for *at least* 6 seconds)Yup. HP is a great example of a fairly specific system that gets weaker and weaker as more new things interact with it.
Otto the Bugbear 03-29-07, 07:31 AM	To me, hit points don't represent bodily health at all. (I know, the rules point out that they do, but :pbbbtt: on that ;) ) I've said that hit points represent a characters ability to remain as a functioning part of the story/game. Higher level characters are more resistant to being removed from the game, because they're more important to the overall story-arc than the peon. Peons are made, after all, to die in droves to most monsters, requiring the heroes to rescue them. [Character] Hit points are a measure of a character's importance in the game. It may not be easier to explain or make more sense, but I rather prefer it.
starfire311 03-29-07, 08:53 AM	[Character] Hit points are a measure of a character's importance in the game. Interesting concept, but this would mean that fighters are more important to the game than wizards... maybe this will make all those fighters suck thread sgo away, heck they are more important to the game than wizards, that should mean something.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-29-07, 09:50 AM	Okay, please backpedal a bit and lay out your thinking more explicitly. By which I mean define what a "light wound" looks like in terms of the narrative of play rather than the mechanics. I think that'll clear things up. I looks like this: 5 hp. Anything more than that is situationally appropriate descriptive fluff. It might help to think of it this way: do not envision a killing-blow for a 1st level character as massive and work up, think of a blow that kills a 20th level person as massive and work down. You can kill a housecat with a hard kick, does that mean the same kick should be equally fatal to an elephant? Hell no. The housecat can only take a tiny fraction of the damage that an elephant can before succumbing; the same holds true for a low-level character vs. a high-level one. The Ultimate Dmaage Threshold is set byt he highest level, not the lowest one.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-29-07, 09:54 AM	what exactly is a light wound? how would you narate a light wound. I narrate it as appropriate to the situation at hand. DM: Ok you got you just got a light wound, take 8 points of damage. PC: light wound, that drops me from max to neg 5, that wasn't light, I think that is quite severe. DM: nope it was light, only 8 points, barely scratched your hand. PC: then why am I lying in a pool of my own blood on the ground if it is a light wound. DM: no blood, didnt even break your skin really, it was just a light wound. PC: I'd hate to see a moderate wound. And now for critically wounded. DM: ok this is pretty bad, you jsut got a critical wound for 28 points of damage. PC: Laughs, 28 points that is nothing, I have over 500 HPs, that is like cutting myself shaving. DM: nope it is critical, your intestines are spead across the battle ground. PC: yeah right, I only have to get hit "critically" another 15 times before I need to get worried. If you play in a game like this I pity you. I really, truly do.
Evil DM Mk3 03-29-07, 11:35 AM	To me, hit points don't represent bodily health at all. (I know, the rules point out that they do, but :pbbbtt: on that ;) ) I've said that hit points represent a characters ability to remain as a functioning part of the story/game. Higher level characters are more resistant to being removed from the game, because they're more important to the overall story-arc than the peon. Peons are made, after all, to die in droves to most monsters, requiring the heroes to rescue them. [Character] Hit points are a measure of a character's importance in the game. It may not be easier to explain or make more sense, but I rather prefer it. It's like character sheilds meets Narivium!! Love it! I have also been using differant rules for falling for a while now because of how silly the look next to hp. Fortitude save, affects objects, that has bad effects by stages based on how bad you failed the save, first short stuning, then stuning and drop in speed untill healed, then stunning, speed drop and the equivelant of exaustion(but not exaustion), then all of those and at -1hp, then death...
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-29-07, 11:39 AM	To me, hit points don't represent bodily health at all. (I know, the rules point out that they do, but :pbbbtt: on that ;) ) I've said that hit points represent a characters ability to remain as a functioning part of the story/game. Higher level characters are more resistant to being removed from the game, because they're more important to the overall story-arc than the peon. Peons are made, after all, to die in droves to most monsters, requiring the heroes to rescue them. [Character] Hit points are a measure of a character's importance in the game. It may not be easier to explain or make more sense, but I rather prefer it. Actually, I like that explanation a lot. It almost makes me want to rename "Hit Points" as "Heroic Pertinence." ;)
TwiddleStootch 03-29-07, 11:51 AM	When i am giving descriptions for attacks that hit, I always just compare how much damage is taken to how much total HP the target has and then say how serious a hit it is depending on what % of their HP is taken. So 8 damage Vs. a 10 HP opponent is a serious wound to the side. 8 damage Vs. a 70 HP opponent is a cut to the arm/leg. I always just guesstimated what the % is and then pull the description off my head :D
StormKnight 03-29-07, 12:00 PM	...they work considerably less well for things such as falling damage, or total immersion in molten lava (a Fighter 20 is somehow able to withstand this for *at least* 6 seconds). Is this really a problem? C'mon, how often in a game have you ever wind up in lava, specifically get immersed (if you roll low, normally you could just say "you landed on a piece of semi-solid slag...better get off quick!"), survive the massive damage, but be in a position to get out before taking more damage? Has anyone ever actually had this happen? And even if you have had this happen, you've got a legendary hero on that only exists in myth or heroic fiction getting affected by something that most of us have never even seen in person. What's "realistic" at this point is already long out the window.
Otto the Bugbear 03-29-07, 12:43 PM	Interesting concept, but this would mean that fighters are more important to the game than wizards... maybe this will make all those fighters suck thread sgo away, heck they are more important to the game than wizards, that should mean something. Looks like my post could use a little better language. How about... [Character] Hit Dice are a measure of characters' importance in the game/story. [Character] Hit Points are a measure of how well an individual character withstands the rigors of adventuring. Actually, I like that explanation a lot. It almost makes me want to rename "Hit Points" as "Heroic Pertinence." ;) That's pretty good. How about Hit Dice = Heroic Pertinence / Villainous Pertinence. That might set up a little subtle side-play also. One that involves a comparison between character and NPC/monster. After all, when your character is 15th level, that 6 HD Mob Boss or random Gnoll is one Bad MoFo to the locals, but not very pertinent to your character.
High Octane 03-29-07, 01:32 PM	Hit points are better explained as PLOT POWER! You see, plot is an energy source, form of measurement, and natural force more powerful than molecular bonds and gravity combined. Thus a person can have a car running on plot, travelling at the speed of plot, gravitating toward a plot point. This is normal in every form of fiction.
Voran 03-29-07, 04:27 PM	Heh, the whole cure light/mod/serious/crit wounds stuff is a little funky compared to the HP stuff. Course, I suppose its better than calling it Cure Cura Curaga Curagagagagagagaga. Megashodanheal!
Sphyre 03-29-07, 04:48 PM	Heh, the whole cure light/mod/serious/crit wounds stuff is a little funky compared to the HP stuff. Course, I suppose its better than calling it Cure Cura Curaga Curagagagagagagaga. Megashodanheal! Heh. Well you could call it "Cure Wounds I, Cure Wounds II, Cure Wounds III, and Cure Wounds IV," and that alleviates the entire problem. Cure Wounds II would always cure more than Cure Wounds I, but you should never use it when Cure Wounds I would be enough... Mechanics vs flavor seems to be a big issue in this thread. Do you want to change the flavor or mechanics, is the real question.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-29-07, 04:55 PM	Hit points are better explained as PLOT POWER! You see, plot is an energy source, form of measurement, and natural force more powerful than molecular bonds and gravity combined. Thus a person can have a car running on plot, travelling at the speed of plot, gravitating toward a plot point. This is normal in every form of fiction. The most powerful utilization of course, is the Plot Shield. Any character protected by Plot can withstand, quite literally, anything else in the universe. This, of course, has lead to the famous philosophical question "Can a DM create an NPC so important that even he cannot kill it?" ;)
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-29-07, 05:02 PM	Heh. Well you could call it "Cure Wounds I, Cure Wounds II, Cure Wounds III, and Cure Wounds IV," and that alleviates the entire problem. Cure Wounds II would always cure more than Cure Wounds I, but you should never use it when Cure Wounds I would be enough... There is not problem to cure. All it would do would be to eliminate one small pedantic non-issue for people to complain about. There would still be many others, and I am certian that somone, many somone I would guess, would find equal fault with the Cure Wounds I, Cure Wounds II, Cure Wounds III, etc. system. You might as well call them cure ouchie, cure boo boo, cure whoopsie… The names are just fluff. Who cares. This isn't even making a mountain out of a molehill, this is making a molehill where there isn't one and then making a mountain out of it.
Sphyre 03-30-07, 01:19 AM	There is not problem to cure. All it would do would be to eliminate one small pedantic non-issue for people to complain about. There would still be many others, and I am certian that somone, many somone I would guess, would find equal fault with the Cure Wounds I, Cure Wounds II, Cure Wounds III, etc. system. You might as well call them cure ouchie, cure boo boo, cure whoopsie… The names are just fluff. Who cares. This isn't even making a mountain out of a molehill, this is making a molehill where there isn't one and then making a mountain out of it. That's exactly what I was saying :)
yrogerg 03-30-07, 06:41 AM	Is this really a problem? C'mon, how often in a game have you ever wind up in lava, specifically get immersed (if you roll low, normally you could just say "you landed on a piece of semi-solid slag...better get off quick!"), survive the massive damage, but be in a position to get out before taking more damage? Has anyone ever actually had this happen? And even if you have had this happen, you've got a legendary hero on that only exists in myth or heroic fiction getting affected by something that most of us have never even seen in person. What's "realistic" at this point is already long out the window. Okay, so ignoring bursting lava floes as an environmental hazard (I know at least one book presents standing near one as it bursts as putting you in danger of said immersion in lava for 1 round) for a second, what about falls? Falling damage caps at 20d6, so our Fighter 20 can fall *any* distance and is *guaranteed* to walk away. In fact, if we use the 10% of max= first blood abstraction, he's going to walk away from that 15 mile fall with nary a scratch. Heck, even a not-quite-legendary Fighter 10 is *likely* to survive such a fall. Legendary heroics is one thing, but this really does break verisimilitude, given the things that we normally say hitpoints are abstractly representing.
enlightened 03-30-07, 08:41 AM	.... but this really does break verisimilitude, given the things that we normally say hitpoints are abstractly representing. HPs can also represent divine intervention. :)
mysticpot31 03-30-07, 11:32 AM	Just take the cap off of terminal velocity for falling or change it to a deadlier die like die 8, 10, or 12
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-30-07, 11:37 AM	Just take the cap off of terminal velocity for falling… Or just stack falling damage, as was orginally intended.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-30-07, 12:23 PM	Okay, so ignoring bursting lava floes as an environmental hazard (I know at least one book presents standing near one as it bursts as putting you in danger of said immersion in lava for 1 round) for a second, what about falls? Falling damage caps at 20d6, so our Fighter 20 can fall *any* distance and is *guaranteed* to walk away. In fact, if we use the 10% of max= first blood abstraction, he's going to walk away from that 15 mile fall with nary a scratch. Heck, even a not-quite-legendary Fighter 10 is *likely* to survive such a fall. Legendary heroics is one thing, but this really does break verisimilitude, given the things that we normally say hitpoints are abstractly representing. Not really. If you know what you're doing, you can drastically reduce the injuries suffered by falls from great heights.
Someone 03-30-07, 01:27 PM	Or you just nonchalantly leave a whopping huge crater in the ground. Happens in video games all the time.
StormKnight 03-30-07, 05:59 PM	Falling damage caps at 20d6, so our Fighter 20 can fall *any* distance and is *guaranteed* to walk away. In fact, if we use the 10% of max= first blood abstraction, he's going to walk away from that 15 mile fall with nary a scratch. Heck, even a not-quite-legendary Fighter 10 is *likely* to survive such a fall. Legendary heroics is one thing, but this really does break verisimilitude, given the things that we normally say hitpoints are abstractly representing. I'd say your Fighter getting 15 miles up breaks verisimilitude more than whatever happens to him when he falls :) But, regular, real people have survived falls from above terminal velocity. So, yes, a level 20 fighter could survive such a fall. What are the odds? Who knows! Probably worse than 97% (Its not 100% to survive - he is likely to take over 50 damage and could get a '1' on the Fort check. Then SPLAT!), I'll give you that. But, nobody likely knows what the odds of a real person surviving such a fall are anyway. In any case, that really indicates more of a flaw in falling damage than in HP. Its equally odd (though rarely mentioned) that a commoner will be certainly killed by almost any fall.
Negflar2099 03-30-07, 08:09 PM	I really think the hit point system does break down at the extremes. Maybe not with "critical" hits but certainly with extreme falls or other situations. I like this idea for the damage threshold chart that Star Wars guys are coming up with. That might work. I think if you flipped Hit Points on their head people would have an easier time understanding it. What I mean is what if you described HP by what's really happening. A character's HP never goes up. Not really. The amount of actual damage they can take never changes. Instead what happens is the damage of every weapon (and other damaging effects) goes down. For instance say a longsword does upwards of 25 damage to a 1st level character. It would do 23 damage to a 2nd level character. 20 damage to a 3rd. So on down the line. That's what's really going on. Even a "critical" would only do double the normal damage for that level. Of course this system is needlessly (even impossibly) complicated but that's what's going on. If people thought of it that it might clarify things a bit. That still leaves the real problem I have with HP. Namely the whole I'm good until I drop situation. Hopefully the damage chart in Star Wars will fix that. I'm fairly excited about that. If they could fix the problems with HP after 30 odd years that would be an amazing accomplishment. :D