Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Serak_DeSardis 10-02-07, 05:27 PM	Greetings gamers! I wanted to take a few minutes to discuss some things that I am seeing that are really getting my shorts into a bunch. This letter is in regards to the constant outpouring about 4E. It seems there are alot of "haters" out there who are literally crying themselves to sleep at night since 4E was announced. Stop it! Wizards of the Coast is not the bad guy. WotC is a company who takes alot of time and effort to produce top quality gaming material and merchandise to a relatively small niche in the business world. Being a business they must make decisions that are for the better interest of profits at times, and as such things change and we as gamers don't always get what we want. They still strive to support their customer base and make us, the consumers happy with their products. Why? If we don't like it, we don't buy it. I do not see 4E as a cash cow attempt. I could be mistaken, but I just don't. Changes in gaming systems are cyclical. When any game comes out, a community will usually build around it and it grows. As time goes on things change. D&D has evolved like any other game has. New rulesets come out once in awhile and shake things up. Why do we fear change? Games never stop being playable. Look at some close cousin examples to express this. CCGs (card games) - Magic the Gathering is THE card game. There have been many popular games through the years but M:TG is the one constant. Magic is still being played with a larger fan base than ever before. New sets that come out now are nothing like the original sets, or even like the set blocks from a few years ago. Things have had to change over the years or no one would even play the games anymore. Rules have changed, and the game still grows. People still play with cards from the original sets up through to now. Video Games - How many people griped about the Playstation 2 when it came out? Tons. PS2 dominated the industry until X-Box arrived. Now the video game market has a healthy enviroment with three competing companies who cater to slightly different demographics. The 3rd generation systems were also griped over, but look at them now. You still aren't garaunteed to find a Wii if you want one, and PS3 and X-Box 360 still sell strong. People still play Nintendos and Sega Genesis systems. 3rd generation systems didn't make them worthless. MMOs (massive-multiplayer-online) - Without a lengthy explanation just look at the changes from a top down 3rd person 2d game like Ultima Online to a fully rendered first or 3rd person rotatable camera game like World of Warcraft. Look at the changes from the original games to current expansions etc. Ultima Online is ten years old, one of the first true MMOs, and people still play it (hell I pay $13/month just to keep my house). My point? 4E will not make your previous D&D products useless. It will not make the stories or plotlines from previous novels and sourcebooks worthless. It will not ruin the flavor of your favorite settings (unless you allow it to). Let me address some of the most common complaints I've seen... 1. My old books are going to be worthless. Response: See above, and: Oh really? Then why do people still pay reasonable amounts of money for classic 1-2nd Ed D&D material online? They only become worthless if you choose for them to, and they can always be adapted if you'll take some time and effort. You can always run your campaigns using old rules. Its totally your choice. 2. They are turning D&D into a computer game. Repsonse: Absolutely not. How could they? For lack of a better description Wizards of the Coast is a publishing company. How could they ever take away their primary source of income? Besides thats what D&D Online is for. D&D Insider is going to be an additional option for folks who want it. I personally have printed about 75-90% of the articles that were on this website previous to the anouncement. To think that for roughly $13 bucks a month I'm going to get the value of two of my favorite magazines plus other content makes me giddy with excitement. 3. 3/3.5 isn't that old!!! Why are they doing this to me? Response: Because the game has changed. The world has changed. In the past WotC and TSR had operated in a relative vacuum. They didn't have that much opportunity to see just how people use their products and what they like/dislike about them. Now they have nearly instant feedback in nearly limitless proportions of just how alot of their customer base uses their products. When they see message board posts numbering in the hundreds in discussions about broken rules and unbalanced books/class/spells etc etc. They take notice. With the speed of modern communication comes the need for modern reaction times. Rather than taking months maybe years to fix problems, now it can be done in days or weeks. 4. This is just a cash cow attempt. They are turning away from their customers. Response: They can't!!! If WotC ignored the customer demands, there would be no WotC, no D&D, nothing. WotC puts out two to three books a month because they have an unprecedented amount of resources to do so with. Never before has any tabletop company had this amount of capital income, this customer base, or this amount of availible talent to tap. Freelance submissions used to take days or weeks to get the their offices so they could be proofread and chosen for publishing. Now it can be done in an afternoon (if they so choose). Let's face it, in the 8 years 3rd/3.5 has been around they've covered and expanded upon more material than in previous editions combined. 5. They are trying to dumb down the game. Reponse: Not true. At least not what we've seen so far. What I think they are shooting for is to take less time spent doing math and flipping through the books to check rules and spend more time actually performing actions and growing a story. They seem to be striving to build a system that requires less tweaking and poking/prodding to get what you want out of than previous editions had. 6. WotC is turning away from it's customers. Reponse: How could this be less true? They've anounced the new set 9 months in advance, basically killing they end of the 3/3.5 product run from a sales point. They've still produced the products that they promised they would including the Rules Compendium. They are trying to build a new system that should hopefully have ironed out many of the kinks of previous editions. Then there is D&D Insider/Gleemax. This is an unprecedented amount of customer contact and sharing than ever before. They are allowing us, the public to playtest 4E!! In closing, I guess I'm asking my fellow gamers to stop the childish rants, whining and complaining. Take a few moments to keep in mind the following: 1. We don't know what 4E is yet, lets wait and see. 2. Your 3/3.5 2nd Ed and Original material is not going to self destruct. 3. YOU make the game what it is on YOUR table. No one else does that for you. 4. WotC is composed of mostly gamers, our brethren. Love your fellow man (even if hes smelly and wears glasses). Give them a chance and judge them on a final product. Not idle speculation.
Wight_Chocolate 10-02-07, 05:33 PM	A letter to the masses: Dear Masses, Please start threads about 4th edition D&D in the 4th edition D&D forum (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=693) that was specifically designed to contain threads about or relating to 4th edition D&D. Yours sincerely, Wight_Chocolate
Serak_DeSardis 10-02-07, 05:44 PM	I refuse to grapple with a troll.
jaelis 10-02-07, 05:45 PM	Dear masses, Ever since you and the accelerations split up, things just haven't been the same. What would old father Newton say? Please come back soon. Love, the forces (I'm sorry. Nothing against the OP (though this is the wrong forum). Just can't resist physics jokes.)
Wight_Chocolate 10-02-07, 05:53 PM	I refuse to grapple with a troll. What? Since we're talking to the masses here I thought I might as well point that out too. It's still happening, you know; it's not as though the statement targets you specifically.
Serak_DeSardis 10-02-07, 06:00 PM	Wight_Chocolate I figured as much, my reply was meant to be funny. If the Mods want to move this post, by all means please do so. I posted it in this forum because I saw a great deal of similar posts and to be truthful, I'm not sure the 4E forum is my target audience.
Wight_Chocolate 10-02-07, 06:06 PM	Oh. Well hey, I can't say I blame you. I wouldn't grapple with a troll either. Not with that strength modifier.
Rustmonster 10-02-07, 07:43 PM	Oh. Well hey, I can't say I blame you. I wouldn't grapple with a troll either. Not with that strength modifier. Damn! You beat me to the joke. :pbbbtt:
WizO_Autumn 10-02-07, 07:52 PM	This does indeed belong in the 4E forums. Look them over and decide which forum you'd like it in and then report it and we'll be sure it move it for you. Thanks!
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-02-07, 07:53 PM	This does indeed belong in the 4E forums. Look them over and decide which forum you'd like it in and then report it and we'll be sure it move it for you. Thanks! Now that's quality moderation.
Wight_Chocolate 10-02-07, 07:58 PM	Bah. If he'd been offered a cool beverage and an expert massage while he mulled it over, then we'd be talking quality moderation. This falls under "satisfactory".
WizO_Autumn 10-02-07, 08:19 PM	Bah. If he'd been offered a cool beverage and an expert massage while he mulled it over, then we'd be talking quality moderation. This falls under "satisfactory". I'm all for personal touches, but... well, that touching may be a bit too personal ;)
Wight_Chocolate 10-02-07, 09:29 PM	I didn't say you had to be the one doing it. Delegation is acceptable. I'm not that harsh of a judge.
RadicalTaoist 10-02-07, 10:18 PM	A letter to the masses: Dear Masses, Please start threads about 4th edition D&D in the 4th edition D&D forum (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=693) that was specifically designed to contain threads about or relating to 4th edition D&D. Yours sincerely, Wight_Chocolate This wins on truth. Dear masses, Ever since you and the accelerations split up, things just haven't been the same. What would old father Newton say? Please come back soon. Love, the forces (I'm sorry. Nothing against the OP (though this is the wrong forum). Just can't resist physics jokes.) This wins on lol. WizO_Autumn just wins because she's awesome.
WizO_Autumn 10-02-07, 10:40 PM	Winning is where I'm a Viking. If anyone else has an idea of where to move this, I'm open to suggestions.
camthalion 10-02-07, 11:43 PM	Winning is where I'm a Viking. If anyone else has an idea of where to move this, I'm open to suggestions. I suggested creating a space titled 'Painfully long 4e threads' but then I didn't read the original post. It was painfully long.
Renark von Bek 10-02-07, 11:50 PM	Greetings gamers! 1. My old books are going to be worthless. Response: See above, and: Oh really? Then why do people still pay reasonable amounts of money for classic 1-2nd Ed D&D material online? They only become worthless if you choose for them to, and they can always be adapted if you'll take some time and effort. You can always run your campaigns using old rules. Its totally your choice. My concern isn't about my old books self destructing it's that since I am going to play 4th ed I have a hard time justifying spending 30-40 on books I'm not going to use in 6 months. Also I have spent a lot of money on books (including replacing $500 worth of books that got stolen) I know that the 4th ed police aren't going to come take my books away, but consider this how hard is it to find a 1st or 2nd ed game (or even 3.0 if thats your thing). I want to move forward, and so does my group, but if I didn't I would be left behind and as time goes on my perfectly viable books will be sitting on a shelf not getting used because there is no one who wants to play them with me. There are things I like and things I don't about 4th ed. I'm looking at you cyric murdering mystra. So I get tired of the flippant "your books aren't going to be obsolete" answers. I live in Denver and it's still hard for me to find a game if something goes sour. I just don't want to be left crying "what about THAC0" and so yeah, my books are going to be obsolete and if you don't like it well I'm sorry
1337Ninja 10-03-07, 07:08 AM	This letter is in regards to the constant outpouring about 4E. It seems there are alot of "haters" out there who are literally crying themselves to sleep at night since 4E was announced. Stop it! Hardly an appropriate exaggeration, but whatever. I'll stop complaining when someone gives me a reason to. CCGs (card games) - Magic the Gathering is THE card game. There have been many popular games through the years but M:TG is the one constant. Magic is still being played with a larger fan base than ever before. New sets that come out now are nothing like the original sets, or even like the set blocks from a few years ago. Things have had to change over the years or no one would even play the games anymore. Rules have changed, and the game still grows. People still play with cards from the original sets up through to now. Wrong. MtG doesn't get made obselete when a new block comes out because it always uses the same rules and always will. Blocks are splatbooks, not editions. You're comparing the next book in a series (MtG) to a new one series that makes you unable to read the rest (4.0). Video Games - How many people griped about the Playstation 2 when it came out? Tons. PS2 dominated the industry until X-Box arrived. Now the video game market has a healthy enviroment with three competing companies who cater to slightly different demographics. The 3rd generation systems were also griped over, but look at them now. You still aren't garaunteed to find a Wii if you want one, and PS3 and X-Box 360 still sell strong. People still play Nintendos and Sega Genesis systems. 3rd generation systems didn't make them worthless. You don't need to play with an average of 4 other people to use your NES. It's a bit more difficult to find a game of an outdated edition. Not as bad as your TCG argument, but, again, a poor analogy. 1. My old books are going to be worthless. Response: See above, and: Oh really? Then why do people still pay reasonable amounts of money for classic 1-2nd Ed D&D material online? They only become worthless if you choose for them to, and they can always be adapted if you'll take some time and effort. You can always run your campaigns using old rules. Its totally your choice. Let's see. Where do I get to play D&D as a PC? At a store (hello 4.0!) and at dndonlinegames.com. The latter currently has 3 2.0 games running (I'm not counting 3.0 as a different edition here, so it's the most recent) and maybe 500 or so 3.5. And I don't want to sell my 3.5 books, because it's a good system, a feature I have not yet seen in 4.0. 5. They are trying to dumb down the game. Reponse: Not true. At least not what we've seen so far. What I think they are shooting for is to take less time spent doing math and flipping through the books to check rules and spend more time actually performing actions and growing a story. They seem to be striving to build a system that requires less tweaking and poking/prodding to get what you want out of than previous editions had. In other words, they're dumbing it down. I mean, how much in the way of maths is required in 3.5? The ability to add 10 to a number (your AC) or the result of one or more dice to a number (everything else). Flipping through books to check rules? If you have Improved Sunder, read through the rules before a fight. Same goes for all those other things like disarming, bull rushing, and the like. They're pretty damn simple. The only real complaint is grapples, which I have never understood. You say what you want to do, make opposed grapple checks, and if you win, you succeed. Not really that hard. In closing, I guess I'm asking my fellow gamers to stop the childish rants, whining and complaining. Take a few moments to keep in mind the following: Childish, eh? Unlike you, I am in a position to use that word when describing the other. Your key arguments (most people's main problems) are all flawed. You're insulting other people for no reason other than that they oppose your point of view. Of course, you would probably consider me a child, as I'm barely a teenager, so maybe you meant 'well thought-out and generally correct'. If so, I apologise. 1. We don't know what 4E is yet, lets wait and see. We've been given enough information to know that it isn't looking good. I personally have seen nothing that will improve the game in the tidbits Wizards are giving out to try to make everyone buy 4.0. I mean, seriously, an interview (no, I don't have a link, but I think it was something to do with GenCon) said that because a pit fiend can't teleport, make a wall of fire and animate undead in one encounter (actually, that's false, but whatever), he won't have all those abilities. Also, they're going to tell DMs what this monster does! Wow! Now I can finally figure out that the mind flayer wasn't meant to charge the PCs head-on! Finally, I've realised that hill giant isn't meant to stand back and cast spells! And what have they given us? The completely revolutionary idea of playing on the internet? 2. Your 3/3.5 2nd Ed and Original material is not going to self destruct. Neither will it be particularly usable. 3. YOU make the game what it is on YOUR table. No one else does that for you. Au contrare. See above. 4. WotC is composed of mostly gamers, our brethren. Love your fellow man (even if hes smelly and wears glasses). Give them a chance and judge them on a final product. Not idle speculation. It isn't idle speculation, as I've already said above.
Garlogic 10-03-07, 10:18 AM	I am personally very excited about 4th Ed, even if my group decides to stay w/ 3.5. I just like reading the books no matter what edition they are. But I am sure my group will make the change. One thing we do hate is the time it takes to run combat at high levels. Maybe if we played more often we would be quicker on some of the rules but we have jobs kids and other responsibilities so we are lucky to play once a month. I started in 1st edition and stopped playing before 2nd edition and restarted again when 3.5 started. The changes were great!!! I would be surprised if the new game is not an improvement on 3.5. It probably won't be as much of an improvement though. Of course, not everyone will like the changes, there are still others playing older editions who don't want to change. There will probably be even more people staying w/ 3.5 because it is a perfectly good game. But 4h edition is mostly necassary because WOTC is running a business. This business has the goal of making money, as all businesses do. Making money is not a sin and is not sign of weakness. It is what a business is trying to do. Every business tries to do it. I get tired of hearing whiners complain that Wizards is just trying to make money, well duh. I think most of these people who do that are still young enough to be in school and do not really understand how a free market works. But in a free market nobody makes you buy anything. And only the best and strongest survive. If 4th edition is not a good product it will probably doom Wizards. It may be quite a gamble to even spend as much time and money developing 4th edition. In a free market other companies can develop material for 3.5 and because of OGL it is truly a free market where others can still develop 3.5 material. I really don't think some people are happy unless they are complaining. 4E is coming, if you don't want it don't buy it. If you think it is so awful that a company is trying to make more money don't spend any money on their product. Tangent: Is the issue of making money a political issue? My guess is that it is. Do those of you who complain about 4e as a money grab vote Democrat? If so, that' OK we all make mistakes when we are young.:D I voted for Dukakis and then Clinton the first time before I went to the dark side:) Sorry about the tangent. 3.5 has an enough material out already so that you should be able to play it well with out any more new content. And it should be enjoyable. Good Luck
Wight_Chocolate 10-03-07, 10:41 AM	Let's see. Where do I get to play D&D as a PC? At a store (hello 4.0!) and at dndonlinegames.com. Really? Is that it? So you have no friends whatsoever that are into the hobby and there are no groups or clubs anywhere at all that you can join? The only real complaint is grapples, which I Ah. You do not have a problem with it. But obviously the problem is being experienced by a noteworthy number of people, otherwise why would they bother doing anything about it? These decisions aren't made on a whim. Childish, eh? Unlike you, I am in a position to use that word when describing the other. Your key arguments (most people's main problems) are all flawed. There is a world of difference between setting one's viewpoint out in a logical and rational manner (even if one's reasoning happens to be flawed) and simply stomping one's feet and bawling about how terrible the situation is and how nasty WotC are for doing it. People are guilty of the latter all too often.
BlaineTog 10-03-07, 10:51 AM	Wizards of the Coast is not the bad guy. WotC is a company who takes alot of time and effort to produce top quality gaming material and merchandise to a relatively small niche in the business world. Being a business they must make decisions that are for the better interest of profits at times, and as such things change and we as gamers don't always get what we want.This implies they don't always make the decisions that best support their profits.
zelf_gale 10-03-07, 11:52 AM	Hardly an appropriate exaggeration, but whatever. I'll stop complaining when someone gives me a reason to. Actually the Original Poster enumerated six reasons in the first part of their post to stop complaining. Wrong. MtG doesn't get made obselete when a new block comes out because it always uses the same rules and always will. Blocks are splatbooks, not editions. You're comparing the next book in a series (MtG) to a new one series that makes you unable to read the rest (4.0). There was actually one big rules change in Magic: The Gathering that is very comparable to a new edition. 6th edition rules. Not to mention there has been enough errata to be comparable to a x.5 edition. And new blocks do "obsolete" old product in certain playstyles in Magic, notably draft, block, and standard. Especially since 4th edition is going to be a d20 system, I don't see the conversion of old material to be too terribly difficult. You don't need to play with an average of 4 other people to use your NES. It's a bit more difficult to find a game of an outdated edition. Not as bad as your TCG argument, but, again, a poor analogy. Let's see. Where do I get to play D&D as a PC? At a store (hello 4.0!) and at dndonlinegames.com. The latter currently has 3 2.0 games running (I'm not counting 3.0 as a different edition here, so it's the most recent) and maybe 500 or so 3.5. And I don't want to sell my 3.5 books, because it's a good system, a feature I have not yet seen in 4.0. You might have a hard time finding people to play an old edition because they were having more fun playing the new edition. I've played games that have been out of print for twenty years. If you really love one game's old edition, you can find other people who are willing to try it if you run a game. I don't really see how where you play is relevant to what the Original Poster said. I don't think they were saying you should sell your books either, they were saying people enjoy old editions so they are buying those books. A good system is not a feature of an edition. Also 4th edition is a d20 system, just like your 3.5 books. You'll have no idea if the system is good until you can see it in use. The only place where we get any look at that is the playtest reports (which appear to have some objective viewpoints) , where so far people seem to be having a good time. In other words, they're dumbing it down. I mean, how much in the way of maths is required in 3.5? The ability to add 10 to a number (your AC) or the result of one or more dice to a number (everything else). Flipping through books to check rules? If you have Improved Sunder, read through the rules before a fight. Same goes for all those other things like disarming, bull rushing, and the like. They're pretty damn simple. The only real complaint is grapples, which I have never understood. You say what you want to do, make opposed grapple checks, and if you win, you succeed. Not really that hard. Flipping through books to look up rules during combat is time consuming and it breaks suspension of disbelief. Also streamlining the rules makes it easier to add new rules to the system in splatbooks. Finally, the game does not become "dumbed" down specifically because it does not remove challenge or difficulty, it refocuses its position. The goal is to make knowledge of the rules less difficult, while providing more options, which in turn make effective employment of those options more difficult. So your smarts go into a different area, but they aren't unused. The game will be just as complex, it'll just have less barrier to entry. Also as a side note, some people do play the game who do have difficulty adding, subtracting, and multiplying multiple figures within a small time frame. I also don't find it that hard but they do and there is no reason to exclude them from the game on purpose if they otherwise contribute to the enjoyment of the game. Childish, eh? Unlike you, I am in a position to use that word when describing the other. This statement contradicts itself. It's the equivalent of "I'm rubber, you're glue...etc. Your key arguments (most people's main problems) are all flawed. You're insulting other people for no reason other than that they oppose your point of view. Actually very little ad hominem was present in the Original Posters post. You committed it in the statement previous to this one. Of course, you would probably consider me a child, as I'm barely a teenager, so maybe you meant 'well thought-out and generally correct'. If so, I apologise. Your joke here fell flat, but I appreciate the attempt at humor. We've been given enough information to know that it isn't looking good. I personally have seen nothing that will improve the game in the tidbits Wizards are giving out to try to make everyone buy 4.0. I mean, seriously, an interview (no, I don't have a link, but I think it was something to do with GenCon) said that because a pit fiend can't teleport, make a wall of fire and animate undead in one encounter (actually, that's false, but whatever), he won't have all those abilities. Also, they're going to tell DMs what this monster does! Wow! Now I can finally figure out that the mind flayer wasn't meant to charge the PCs head-on! Finally, I've realised that hill giant isn't meant to stand back and cast spells! And what have they given us? The completely revolutionary idea of playing on the internet? I've seen several tidbits that I found promising, make sure to read the Design & Development articles again. I actually think we've been given enough information to know that it is looking good. The chance for spell casters abilities to actually be partially dependent on reusable gear is nice. I can see lots of ways that can streamline gear progression between classes and help distribute treasure tables. Generally their comments on spell like abilities have also been correct. A lot of monsters do have spell like abilities that have no flavor, or mechanical synergy with the monster. And the average life span for most monsters is less than 5 rounds, so having over ten abilities doesn't make much sense if they all take 1 round to activate. While running a game "off the cuff", which I'm fairly fond of doing, it would be nice to have a few comments on a monsters favorite tactics. This is a more interesting idea particularly with spell casters with large spells known lists, since they have so many options available. Sometimes its not immediately apparent how a monster operates in a group either and knowing how they like to sync with other members would be nice. I don't think they've claimed the idea of an online table was revolutionary. I think the only thing about it that is really cool is that they are going to offer full support for it. Neither will it be particularly usable. Au contrare. See above. It isn't idle speculation, as I've already said above. It is still usable, you just have to find a group. If no one wants to play the old edition it might be because the new edition is more fun. Chances are though, that you'll be able to find someone who will play the old edition. I don't expect Rule zero to be leaving in 4th ed. and the original poster is most likely referring to house rules and to your personal choice of edition. Neither of those have been removed by adding the additional choice of 4th ed. You are speculating. You haven't played 4th ed. and you are trying to guess at what it will be like before you do.
Sudnji_cas 10-03-07, 12:06 PM	*cries himself to sleep*
bone_naga 10-03-07, 12:57 PM	I've got to agree with Serak here. 4ed may end up being better or worse than 3.5 (although I really like what I've been seeing in the Design and Development section so far), but either way, there are a lot of people crying about it for no reason. If you don't want to play 4th, then don't; no one's holding a gun to your head (I hope not anyway). I know plenty of people that played 1st and 2nd ed during the reign of 3/3.5. Also, I didn't want to buy all new books, so I took the time to convert my old material. If anything, it'll probably be easier to convert between 3.5 and 4th than it was from 2ed to 3ed. What I really don't understand is complaints that the game is being dumbed down. So because a scientific calculator isn't required, the game is less fun and will only be played by drooling morons? Streamlining rules makes the game more fun and makes it more accessible to new players. You'll still need to play your character intelligently. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I just don't see how this is a bad thing.
Serak_DeSardis 10-03-07, 01:41 PM	Thanks for the support from some of you, even if you don't neccesarily agree with my points. None of this was meant to be insulting, but perhaps just a wry attempt at asking folks to calm down for a moment and just wait and see. To sum up my OP, just give them some time and some space. Pass judgement when you have the chance to see it all completely unveiled.
HermitIX 10-03-07, 03:22 PM	My concern isn't about my old books self destructing it's that since I am going to play 4th ed I have a hard time justifying spending 30-40 on books I'm not going to use in 6 months. Also I have spent a lot of money on books (including replacing $500 worth of books that got stolen) I bet whoever stole your books if feeling pretty stupid now.
Renark von Bek 10-03-07, 10:13 PM	I bet whoever stole your books if feeling pretty stupid now. Yep! lol
Renark von Bek 10-03-07, 10:16 PM	What I really don't understand is complaints that the game is being dumbed down. So because a scientific calculator isn't required, the game is less fun and will only be played by drooling morons? Streamlining rules makes the game more fun and makes it more accessible to new players. You'll still need to play your character intelligently. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I just don't see how this is a bad thing. Kind of have to agree with you. I mean my wife still complains about THAC0 being gone. As if we were a club that had an IQ requirement to get in. (we still do, but don't get me started.)
Renark von Bek 10-03-07, 10:25 PM	Tangent: Is the issue of making money a political issue? My guess is that it is. Do those of you who complain about 4e as a money grab vote Democrat? If so, that' OK we all make mistakes when we are young.:D I voted for Dukakis and then Clinton the first time before I went to the dark side:) "True dat" as the only republican in my group [/QUOTE] Sorry about the tangent. 3.5 has an enough material out already so that you should be able to play it well with out any more new content. And it should be enjoyable. Good Luck[/QUOTE] Yes, but as a husband and father it's hard enough to find time for a game without also fighting to play an old edition. P.S. I agree in principle with the letter writer. I can't find the quote but someone on the boards said that if WOTC put out a box of free money immediately people would get on the boards complaining about how it is folded. All I'm saying is that I get the feeling sometimes that Wizards (Noonan and Mealrs I love your show) aren't taking my concerns seriously, but meh what can you do.
ptay313 10-04-07, 04:27 AM	I have to honestly say that both sides of the arguement make some valid points. I have invested about $150 in books, some of which I havent even been able to use in a campain yet (still waiting for an aquatic campain so I can use Stormwrack). I don't want those books to become obsolete. I also think it is too early to bring out a new system. At the same time, the online additions would be very useful, and would allow me to play with friends who have moved away. So, will 4.0 be better than 3.5? Will Grappeling become any easier? Will I shell out $120 for the core books when they come out? Only time will tell.
1337Ninja 10-04-07, 10:30 PM	Really? Is that it? So you have no friends whatsoever that are into the hobby and there are no groups or clubs anywhere at all that you can join? They key words were 'as a PC'. I have plenty of friends who play D&D, but the ones who like DMing can't do it for peanuts. The two clubs I have access to are both in stores, which aren't exactly going to use the old rules when they're trying to make people buy 4.0. Ah. You do not have a problem with it. But obviously the problem is being experienced by a noteworthy number of people, otherwise why would they bother doing anything about it? These decisions aren't made on a whim. It's true that they look like a horrible mess, but it isn't that difficult to understand them when you look past all the various things you can do and think about the common denominator. If there is another reason for people not understanding grapples, I would be glad to hear it. There is a world of difference between setting one's viewpoint out in a logical and rational manner (even if one's reasoning happens to be flawed) and simply stomping one's feet and bawling about how terrible the situation is and how nasty WotC are for doing it. People are guilty of the latter all too often. This is very true. However, people who support 4.0 are also often unthinking in their reasoning are common. Most of the posts in the Doomsday thread (at least, for the first 5 pages or so) had good, well structured arguments, and the Hallelujah! people were mainly saying 'Yay! 4.0! I sound like a mindless bot used by WotC to encourage people!'. I'm not saying that all of the 4.0 supporters are sheep, but the problem exists on both sides. Actually the Original Poster enumerated six reasons in the first part of their post to stop complaining. And I didn't buy them, thus, no good reason to stop complaining. There was actually one big rules change in Magic: The Gathering that is very comparable to a new edition. 6th edition rules. Not to mention there has been enough errata to be comparable to a x.5 edition. And new blocks do "obsolete" old product in certain playstyles in Magic, notably draft, block, and standard. Especially since 4th edition is going to be a d20 system, I don't see the conversion of old material to be too terribly difficult. True, I forgot that 6th edition changed the rules. However, Alpha cards are compatible with Lorwyn. You won't be able to use a 3.5 class in 4.0. 6th was, therefore, more like the 3.0-3.5 change than the 3.5-4.0. You might have a hard time finding people to play an old edition because they were having more fun playing the new edition. I've played games that have been out of print for twenty years. If you really love one game's old edition, you can find other people who are willing to try it if you run a game. I don't really see how where you play is relevant to what the Original Poster said. I don't think they were saying you should sell your books either, they were saying people enjoy old editions so they are buying those books. A good system is not a feature of an edition. Also 4th edition is a d20 system, just like your 3.5 books. You'll have no idea if the system is good until you can see it in use. The only place where we get any look at that is the playtest reports (which appear to have some objective viewpoints) , where so far people seem to be having a good time. It's going to be a lot harder to find the people to play with if 4.0 is a success. I haven't seen anyone who plays 3.0, which is right next to 3.5 in playability, and easily compatible. 2.0? No-one at all. And OP said in the 'my books will be worthless' section that, if so, early books wouldn't have a good price. I assumed that meant 'you can sell them for a good amount, so they aren't worthless'. Flipping through books to look up rules during combat is time consuming and it breaks suspension of disbelief. Also streamlining the rules makes it easier to add new rules to the system in splatbooks. Finally, the game does not become "dumbed" down specifically because it does not remove challenge or difficulty, it refocuses its position. The goal is to make knowledge of the rules less difficult, while providing more options, which in turn make effective employment of those options more difficult. So your smarts go into a different area, but they aren't unused. The game will be just as complex, it'll just have less barrier to entry. Also as a side note, some people do play the game who do have difficulty adding, subtracting, and multiplying multiple figures within a small time frame. I also don't find it that hard but they do and there is no reason to exclude them from the game on purpose if they otherwise contribute to the enjoyment of the game. The way I see it, dumbing something down is making it simpler in a nastier tone of voice. And I personally never found the rules very difficult to understand. Again, if you don't want books being searched during the game, have people revise difficult subjects beforehand. The basic rules are very simple already. This statement contradicts itself. It's the equivalent of "I'm rubber, you're glue...etc. Not really. I was saying that the OP was effectively insulting everyone who didn't share his point of view simply because they disliked 4.0, and I was saying that that was childish behaviour, not disliking 4.0 for whatever reason. I've seen several tidbits that I found promising, make sure to read the Design & Development articles again. I actually think we've been given enough information to know that it is looking good. The chance for spell casters abilities to actually be partially dependent on reusable gear is nice. I can see lots of ways that can streamline gear progression between classes and help distribute treasure tables. Each to his own, I guess. Personally, eliminating the casting system is one of the biggest problems. It makes the difference between tanks and spellcasters 'this guy's damage depends on his Strength, this guy's damage depends on his Intelligence'. Having to manage your resources was one of the big things about casters. Generally their comments on spell like abilities have also been correct. A lot of monsters do have spell like abilities that have no flavor, or mechanical synergy with the monster. And the average life span for most monsters is less than 5 rounds, so having over ten abilities doesn't make much sense if they all take 1 round to activate. Yes, but I can't think of any monster that's intended as cannon fodder with that many spell-like abilities. They're all thinking caster types, which means that they're more BBEG material, and will be encountered multiple times. Yes, the demon can't use every spell-like ability he has in one encounter, but there's going to be more than one. That's why he has teleport. So the way he uses them all is by using 2 or 3, teleporting out of there, and then sending undead at the PCs and separating them with walls of fire, teleporting away when they escape, and repeating. So if they make monsters with spell-like abilities that are meant to be cannon fodder, then the argument works, otherwise, it doesn't make sense to get rid of abilities just because some of them can't work together. While running a game "off the cuff", which I'm fairly fond of doing, it would be nice to have a few comments on a monsters favorite tactics. This is a more interesting idea particularly with spell casters with large spells known lists, since they have so many options available. Sometimes its not immediately apparent how a monster operates in a group either and knowing how they like to sync with other members would be nice. Fair enough on the groups point, but I doubt that Wizards can give you detailed strategic information on group combat as well as having separate monsters for PCs without having the Monster Manual contain about a third of what it does now. And that would make for very boring campaigns, especially since they now need monsters for 30 different CRs. That means an average of 3 monsters appropriate for your party in the whole $50 book. I don't think they've claimed the idea of an online table was revolutionary. I think the only thing about it that is really cool is that they are going to offer full support for it. Yes, but it does seem to be one of their big things to make people buy 4.0, so I'm a touch skeptical of it.
Dontgothere 10-05-07, 09:32 AM	Dear Masses, Please don't write moronic letters that begin with "Dear Masses" in a pathetic attempt to lobby support for a corporation that could care less about you or the roleplaying game they hijacked. Thanks, Those with common sense
Wight_Chocolate 10-05-07, 11:04 AM	It's going to be a lot harder to find the people to play with if 4.0 is a success. Well yeah, but if 4.0 is a success then one can hardly claim that Wizards did the wrong thing. Conversely, if it's a useless system that nobody likes then plenty of people are probably going to stick with 3.5. Dear Masses, Please don't write moronic letters that begin with "Dear Masses" in a pathetic attempt to lobby support for a corporation that could care less about you or the roleplaying game they hijacked. Thanks, Those with common sense Dear Dontgothere, Nobody did that. Yours Sincerely, Reading Comprehension
HCL 10-05-07, 02:09 PM	The issue is that 3.5 has only been out for a little while, we all bought some books but now its going out of print. I would rather have a couple more years where 3.5 is still in print. I mean if one of your friends wants to get in on DnD and he goes out to buy a players handbook he will only be able to get a 4.0 handbook when the DM spent well over a hundred $ on all those 3.5 books
Renark von Bek 10-05-07, 02:33 PM	The issue is that 3.5 has only been out for a little while, we all bought some books but now its going out of print. I would rather have a couple more years where 3.5 is still in print. I mean if one of your friends wants to get in on DnD and he goes out to buy a players handbook he will only be able to get a 4.0 handbook when the DM spent well over a hundred $ on all those 3.5 books but then again he can probably get all the books he wants used for a much better price. The trick is to convince him wants to
Astron the Wizard 10-05-07, 02:41 PM	My concern is not that my books will self-destruct, but the SRDs will. I use the Hypertext SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) and I'm afraid that when they update to 4E, they won't continue to have 3.5 SRDs. Please, if someone could address my concern and tell me their opinion on this issue, it would be great.
boozerker 10-05-07, 03:04 PM	Three points I'll address, not rebuttals really -- just something to think about. Why do we fear change? Games never stop being playable. Look at some close cousin examples to express this. Business fears change too. Just look how Japan and certain other countries have technologies out years before the U.S. (where it's illegal to sell that technology due to industry requests) CCGs (card games) - Magic the Gathering is THE card game. There have been many popular games through the years but M:TG is the one constant. Magic is still being played with a larger fan base than ever before. New sets that come out now are nothing like the original sets, or even like the set blocks from a few years ago. Things have had to change over the years or no one would even play the games anymore. Rules have changed, and the game still grows. People still play with cards from the original sets up through to now. A more apt comparison would be if WotC released "Magic 2: the clean-up version" with new backs to thje cards so that rules are cleaned up with older carsds matching new ones rules-wise, so players don't have to rely on "oracle" text as heavily. So WotC re-releases all the cards, starting with the first sets, readjusts the casting costs for overpowered cards, eliminates complicated ones and certain mechanics like banding, and presto! Makes good sense to do all that, but why haven't they? Video Games - How many people griped about the Playstation 2 when it came out? Tons. PS2 dominated the industry until X-Box arrived. Now the video game market has a healthy enviroment with three competing companies who cater to slightly different demographics. The 3rd generation systems were also griped over, but look at them now. You still aren't garaunteed to find a Wii if you want one, and PS3 and X-Box 360 still sell strong. People still play Nintendos and Sega Genesis systems. 3rd generation systems didn't make them worthless. Video game systems are interdependent on other technologies which advance, such as computer animations, TV, film, graphics processors, 3D, digital enhancements, and lots more. If video games systems aren't replaced, they'd look beat amongst the newer improvements in which they're embedded. D&D mechanics, however, are a bit more self-contained.