A little advice please [Archive] - Wizards Community

A little advice please [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gambit_Brandier
07-05-06, 09:47 AM Well, here it is. I have some party members who may not want to adhere to the DM's (Me) rules/wants. I try to keep everyone happy, but sometimes it just won't work. One of them insists on playing a Psionic Character or a Prestige Class from Complete Divine....(that book irks me sometimes) but they sometimes deliberately do things to ruin the fun of the campaign to pay me back for not allowing them to play that in the campaign. Got any advice fellow players and DMs?? Please, I will bring your words into thought.
Gambit_Brandier
07-05-06, 09:51 AM Well, here it is. I have some party members who may not want to adhere to the DM's (Me) rules/wants. I try to keep everyone happy, but sometimes it just won't work. One of them insists on playing a Psionic Character or a Prestige Class from Complete Divine....(that book irks me sometimes) but they sometimes deliberately do things to ruin the fun of the campaign to pay me back for not allowing them to play that in the campaign. Got any advice fellow players and DMs?? Please, I will bring your words into thought.

" Well, I can jump over those crates, run down the dock, and then I'll whip out my rapier and kill the lot of 'em. Sounds easy enough doesn't it?? Any objections from you blokes?"

-----Gambit Brandier the Swashbuckler I play
erc1971
07-05-06, 10:22 AM Well, here it is. I have some party members who may not want to adhere to the DM's (Me) rules/wants. I try to keep everyone happy, but sometimes it just won't work. One of them insists on playing a Psionic Character or a Prestige Class from Complete Divine....(that book irks me sometimes) but they sometimes deliberately do things to ruin the fun of the campaign to pay me back for not allowing them to play that in the campaign. Got any advice fellow players and DMs?? Please, I will bring your words into thought.

If you are not prepared to handle those types of PrC's in your game, then you did the right thing by telling the players to stay away from those classes.

I would let your players know why you are not allowing them. If you are not familiar with the rulesfor psionics, and know they would bog the game down to a crawl, your players should respect that and not get childish about the situation.

If they really want to see psionics in use, offer to let one of them run. If no one wants to run, ask that they respect your decision, as you are doing it for the overall good of the game, not to agitate anyone; and that they don't purposely mess up the game, as that is just childish.

In our group, would our current DM allow psionics if we pestered him? I am sure he would, but none of us have even asked, as we all know we are all weak on those rules, and it would seriously hamper the fun of everyone at the table.

If they continue to purposely try to ruin the game, you can just throw your hands up and tell them you can't run like this. If no one else wants to run, maybe they will come to thier senses and behave like adults from then on.

Eric
razorboy
07-05-06, 10:25 AM Are you sure they do it deliberately, or are you just imagining things? If you are 100% sure they're out to ruin your campaign out of spite, take a few minutes (or an hour) to talk to the players directly, and tell them to stop (don't ask, tell!) or else the campaign will be stopped. If neither the DM nor the players are having fun, the game's as good as dead. If the players just want to make min/maxed characters so they can use a book they just bought, they should do it on their own time and post the builds here, not derail and ruin the entire game and your day.

Secondly, put your foot down and leave it there. If you as a DM do not want psionics in your game, or you do not want to see certain PrCs or feats or spells, or material from an entire book (or a dozen) then you're within your right to prohibit their use. Remember what DMG says - even PrCs from the DMG are optional and their use is entirely dependent on DM's preferences! It's your game, you're the one putting the effort to prepare and run it, and your players should accept certain limitations, if they want to keep playing in your game.

Finally, why Complete Divine? It's no more broken (in fact far less IMO) than say Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane or some of the other books outside of Complete series. Just curious what it is that your players use out of that book that bothers you so much.
Azezel
07-05-06, 02:14 PM You are the Dungeon Master - 'Master' as in 'you are in charge'.

If you do not want Psionics in your game then by god there are no Psionics in your game.

The same goes for Divine Metamagic (I'm guessing that's what you have a problem with in the Complete Divine).

If your players do not like it, then they have two options, they can run their own game, or they can play a real class in yours.

In either event - the first step is to talk to the chap(s) in question. something along the lines of 'Listen, I don't want the XPH in my game because it is stupid/I don't know the rules well enough/it doesn't fit my campaign, I'm sorry, but that's the way it is - is it really so important to you that you must imperril our friendship by trying to spoil my game?'

Most reasonable people will see your point - the same goes for any other source book you take exception to.

As for someone trying to ruin your game - first - be careful that you have diagnosed the problem correctly - if it is a willful attempt to sabotage the game, then ask him once, nicely to shape up, then boot him - he's no friend of yours.
Gilean
07-05-06, 03:02 PM Tell the players that you really do not want those game elements present. Having them there would make the game less enjoyable/fun for you.
Do not enter an argument about game balance or setting content (that attacks the symptons, not the problem). Do not give reasons, unless you really are comfortable doing it.

If they are your friends, they'll back down quite fast. If not, too bad.
Rian Lightblade
07-05-06, 07:29 PM Azezel makes some excellent points as does everybody else. Don't forget that you are in charge of the game and you don't have to allow any item, spell, feat, race, power, PrC or abilities that are not in the core rule, if you don't want to, that goes for PrCs as well, PrCs even those in the core rules, are totally optional. Heck if don't have to allow anything you don't want in your game, although make sure to have a good reason (to tell the players when they complain).

Talk to the players, as others have suggested. And if they don't change then give them the boot, and do it without any hesitation or delay.
Grandpa Gamer
07-05-06, 08:20 PM Talk to the players, as others have suggested. And if they don't change then give them the boot, and do it without any hesitation or delay.

That's the hard part, actually following through on what you say will happen. Typically, people like the one you describe simply don't believe you when you tell them about the "consequences" - you've known each other for years, you wouldn't dare, it's damaging the friendship, etc - and he/she/it/they are convinced you'll let them "win" in the end. If that person is not a personal friend, but was brought to the table by another player, then that player is also probably going to pressure you to give in.

Sometimes this is how games end.

At some point the offending player will either concede, or push it to the last - "if you force (me/my bud) out, we're through!" If it gets that far, then you have the simple but painful choice to either give him/them what they want, or let him/them go, and start looking around for replacement players.

Let's face it - for all the talk about "you're the Dungeon MASTER, aren't you?" - gaming is a group activity. An enjoyable game rests on the premise that everyone at the table is there to have fun. After all, most of the true fun is happening AROUND the table, not ON the table!!!

Unfortunately, from the tone of your initial posting, it would appear that this issue has already caused personal friction with more than one player in your group, and you were hoping for advice to smooth it over.

The only practical advice has already been given. Try to have a calm group discussion about why you don't want those (prestige) classes in the game. If the majority agree, then that's that, the offender(s) should put up or shut up. Any talk of gaming without him/them now has the feel of a communal decision. However, if the majority disagrees with your position, then you are in danger of being "the cause if it all".

The truest test of how far this issue has gotten is to see how long you can keep the discussion civil. After all, a good DM/GM is also a good facilitator, balancing several personalities and expectations to keep the fun flowing.

Any friend willing to threaten a friendship over "just a game" isn't a friend. That's as true of fantasy role-playing as it is poker.

Sorry to get so preachy, but I've seen/endured this situation more than once, both as a DM and as a player.
Gilean
07-06-06, 09:56 AM What Grandpa Gamer said.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gambit_Brandier 07-05-06, 09:47 AM	Well, here it is. I have some party members who may not want to adhere to the DM's (Me) rules/wants. I try to keep everyone happy, but sometimes it just won't work. One of them insists on playing a Psionic Character or a Prestige Class from Complete Divine....(that book irks me sometimes) but they sometimes deliberately do things to ruin the fun of the campaign to pay me back for not allowing them to play that in the campaign. Got any advice fellow players and DMs?? Please, I will bring your words into thought.
Gambit_Brandier 07-05-06, 09:51 AM	Well, here it is. I have some party members who may not want to adhere to the DM's (Me) rules/wants. I try to keep everyone happy, but sometimes it just won't work. One of them insists on playing a Psionic Character or a Prestige Class from Complete Divine....(that book irks me sometimes) but they sometimes deliberately do things to ruin the fun of the campaign to pay me back for not allowing them to play that in the campaign. Got any advice fellow players and DMs?? Please, I will bring your words into thought. " Well, I can jump over those crates, run down the dock, and then I'll whip out my rapier and kill the lot of 'em. Sounds easy enough doesn't it?? Any objections from you blokes?" -----Gambit Brandier the Swashbuckler I play
erc1971 07-05-06, 10:22 AM	Well, here it is. I have some party members who may not want to adhere to the DM's (Me) rules/wants. I try to keep everyone happy, but sometimes it just won't work. One of them insists on playing a Psionic Character or a Prestige Class from Complete Divine....(that book irks me sometimes) but they sometimes deliberately do things to ruin the fun of the campaign to pay me back for not allowing them to play that in the campaign. Got any advice fellow players and DMs?? Please, I will bring your words into thought. If you are not prepared to handle those types of PrC's in your game, then you did the right thing by telling the players to stay away from those classes. I would let your players know why you are not allowing them. If you are not familiar with the rulesfor psionics, and know they would bog the game down to a crawl, your players should respect that and not get childish about the situation. If they really want to see psionics in use, offer to let one of them run. If no one wants to run, ask that they respect your decision, as you are doing it for the overall good of the game, not to agitate anyone; and that they don't purposely mess up the game, as that is just childish. In our group, would our current DM allow psionics if we pestered him? I am sure he would, but none of us have even asked, as we all know we are all weak on those rules, and it would seriously hamper the fun of everyone at the table. If they continue to purposely try to ruin the game, you can just throw your hands up and tell them you can't run like this. If no one else wants to run, maybe they will come to thier senses and behave like adults from then on. Eric
razorboy 07-05-06, 10:25 AM	Are you sure they do it deliberately, or are you just imagining things? If you are 100% sure they're out to ruin your campaign out of spite, take a few minutes (or an hour) to talk to the players directly, and tell them to stop (don't ask, tell!) or else the campaign will be stopped. If neither the DM nor the players are having fun, the game's as good as dead. If the players just want to make min/maxed characters so they can use a book they just bought, they should do it on their own time and post the builds here, not derail and ruin the entire game and your day. Secondly, put your foot down and leave it there. If you as a DM do not want psionics in your game, or you do not want to see certain PrCs or feats or spells, or material from an entire book (or a dozen) then you're within your right to prohibit their use. Remember what DMG says - even PrCs from the DMG are optional and their use is entirely dependent on DM's preferences! It's your game, you're the one putting the effort to prepare and run it, and your players should accept certain limitations, if they want to keep playing in your game. Finally, why Complete Divine? It's no more broken (in fact far less IMO) than say Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane or some of the other books outside of Complete series. Just curious what it is that your players use out of that book that bothers you so much.
Azezel 07-05-06, 02:14 PM	You are the Dungeon Master - 'Master' as in 'you are in charge'. If you do not want Psionics in your game then by god there are no Psionics in your game. The same goes for Divine Metamagic (I'm guessing that's what you have a problem with in the Complete Divine). If your players do not like it, then they have two options, they can run their own game, or they can play a real class in yours. In either event - the first step is to talk to the chap(s) in question. something along the lines of 'Listen, I don't want the XPH in my game because it is stupid/I don't know the rules well enough/it doesn't fit my campaign, I'm sorry, but that's the way it is - is it really so important to you that you must imperril our friendship by trying to spoil my game?' Most reasonable people will see your point - the same goes for any other source book you take exception to. As for someone trying to ruin your game - first - be careful that you have diagnosed the problem correctly - if it is a willful attempt to sabotage the game, then ask him once, nicely to shape up, then boot him - he's no friend of yours.
Gilean 07-05-06, 03:02 PM	Tell the players that you really do not want those game elements present. Having them there would make the game less enjoyable/fun for you. Do not enter an argument about game balance or setting content (that attacks the symptons, not the problem). Do not give reasons, unless you really are comfortable doing it. If they are your friends, they'll back down quite fast. If not, too bad.
Rian Lightblade 07-05-06, 07:29 PM	Azezel makes some excellent points as does everybody else. Don't forget that you are in charge of the game and you don't have to allow any item, spell, feat, race, power, PrC or abilities that are not in the core rule, if you don't want to, that goes for PrCs as well, PrCs even those in the core rules, are totally optional. Heck if don't have to allow anything you don't want in your game, although make sure to have a good reason (to tell the players when they complain). Talk to the players, as others have suggested. And if they don't change then give them the boot, and do it without any hesitation or delay.
Grandpa Gamer 07-05-06, 08:20 PM	Talk to the players, as others have suggested. And if they don't change then give them the boot, and do it without any hesitation or delay. That's the hard part, actually following through on what you say will happen. Typically, people like the one you describe simply don't believe you when you tell them about the "consequences" - you've known each other for years, you wouldn't dare, it's damaging the friendship, etc - and he/she/it/they are convinced you'll let them "win" in the end. If that person is not a personal friend, but was brought to the table by another player, then that player is also probably going to pressure you to give in. Sometimes this is how games end. At some point the offending player will either concede, or push it to the last - "if you force (me/my bud) out, we're through!" If it gets that far, then you have the simple but painful choice to either give him/them what they want, or let him/them go, and start looking around for replacement players. Let's face it - for all the talk about "you're the Dungeon MASTER, aren't you?" - gaming is a group activity. An enjoyable game rests on the premise that everyone at the table is there to have fun. After all, most of the true fun is happening AROUND the table, not ON the table!!! Unfortunately, from the tone of your initial posting, it would appear that this issue has already caused personal friction with more than one player in your group, and you were hoping for advice to smooth it over. The only practical advice has already been given. Try to have a calm group discussion about why you don't want those (prestige) classes in the game. If the majority agree, then that's that, the offender(s) should put up or shut up. Any talk of gaming without him/them now has the feel of a communal decision. However, if the majority disagrees with your position, then you are in danger of being "the cause if it all". The truest test of how far this issue has gotten is to see how long you can keep the discussion civil. After all, a good DM/GM is also a good facilitator, balancing several personalities and expectations to keep the fun flowing. Any friend willing to threaten a friendship over "just a game" isn't a friend. That's as true of fantasy role-playing as it is poker. Sorry to get so preachy, but I've seen/endured this situation more than once, both as a DM and as a player.
Gilean 07-06-06, 09:56 AM	What Grandpa Gamer said.