Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Vorpal Tribble 10-26-05, 05:58 PM	I've heard so many discussions about how psionics are merely another magic, or the divine or arcane are just different sides of the same coin. All this got me thinking on the basics of life in D&D. Heres my go at it, and as far as I can tell, fully supported by the D&D books that be :teach: The average human of D&D has four basic parts: #1. Mind #2. Life (body) #3. Soul #4. Essence I have listed the above roughly from the most fragile piece to the sturdiest one. Why do I say mind is the weakest? Well, think of it this way... Mind, or sentience, the ability to understand the world around you, is almost always associated with the body, or basically life. The body feeds and protects the mind in most cases. There are exceptions where those of incredibly strong mind have managed to free themselves permanently from the vessle. Such examples are that of the Unbodied and the Psions Incarnate. Mind is also almost always mixed in with the soul, for without the soul to aid the consicousness, mind is little, though it does happen. So all in all, mind is most dependent on the other parts for its existence in normal cases. Life is the workings of the fleshly body and generally the only corporeal part of the human and most other creatures. It can however survive completely without mind, and often does so, in the way of plants and very simple animals. It can also do without soul, but is not nearly so common. Life however is much more difficult to destroy than the soul, though neither neccessarily require most of the basics of most creatures. Soul is the innate core to most beings and the most difficult to destroy. It does not require life at all, though generally associates with it. Nor does it need mind, though it is likely to have thought. Therefore it is strongest of all, for it needs nothing whatsoever to exist, aside from essence. Then there is essence. Essence is the imprint of the being's existence in the multiverse. Whether it be a memory, something changed because of the being, or any number of other examples, it exists, almost as an echo. This echo is the truley indivisible part of a being. Even outsiders whoes life and soul are one can be brought back with powerful enough spells, which create the original being from their imprint. Unless the entire multiverse be destroyed, one can never truley be rid of the essence of a creature. This essence, though it accompanies all parts of a being, needs none of them. Every creature in existence has at least two of these four bits, except constructs which merely have essence. Usually beings have all four, but there exists at least a few who can be found under every possible combination. This brings us to the classes and how they shape the forces that be. Clerics first and foremost use powers of soul. Through the medium of their deity, or philosophical leanings that allows one to tap the same, they channel the powers of spirit so that they may bring changes to other souls and their life. They find it difficult however to influence Mind through Soul however. Druids manipulate and draw upon Life. Through the combined lifeforce of plants, animals, and the living foundation of the elements themselves they influence other Life, as well as Souls. Liek clerics however, Mind is difficult to access through their links to life. Life and Soul, or body and spirit, are the building blocks of Divine Magic. Psionicists use the route of the inner self that is set apart from body and spirit, the mind. Through the mind they affect other minds, as well as the body that sustains it and is therefore linked. The dead however normally are only filled with unlife, which reacts only poorely with Mind. Psionicists have difficulty as well accessing the soul through the mind. Mind and Life are the building blocks of Psi. Mages, or arcanists, such as Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards however go a different route. Through their study or innate knowledge of the makings of the multiverse itself, the neutral building blocks of Essence, they may touch upon all bits of existence; Mind, Life and Soul. -=-=-=-=-=-=- Discuss :cool:
Seeker95 10-26-05, 07:18 PM	DiscussAlthough you have given us ample material upon which to build a discussion, its largess also creates a barrier to entry. Perhaps you could provide a question or final statement upon which to focus our attention?
The Vorpal Tribble 10-26-05, 08:56 PM	Basically, asking what others think of my assessment on the classes and the 'parts' of a being in the D&D universe. I know there is a bigger question to it but couldn't quite put it into words. Was as much merely a post about my thoughts as a question.
Cymraegmorgan 10-26-05, 11:06 PM	From my CS website: Divine Classes draw power from the Deisphere, that pattern of divine energy weaving its way through all the Created and Uncreated. Culture Classes draw power from the Sorusphere, the sum total of cooperative energy, as well as the complimenting energies that surge through the Spheres. Arcane Classes draw power from the Ecosphere, the five elements and the myriad combinations they make throughout Altvogge. Psionic Classes draw their power from the Psychosphere, the some total of mental energy in the Spheres and Planes. Utility Classes draw their power from within their individual essence directly from their own Egosphere.
The Vorpal Tribble 10-27-05, 11:24 AM	What is a culture and utility class? :uh-huh:
Cymraegmorgan 10-27-05, 04:37 PM	What is a culture and utility class? :uh-huh: Culture classes are what I turned NPC classes into, because fantasy farmers are neither peasants, nor commoners. :D Utility classes: Fighter Kulastraza(Dwarven Defender)* Monk Peregrinator(Horizon Walker)* Rogue Shadowdancer Spadassin(Duelist)* *I do not use PRCs in my CS, they have all been twisted into full 20 level classes. :)
sabrewolf 10-27-05, 04:57 PM	To me this makes sense, but arcanes, :mage: , i believe, initially could only use essence and - since wizards require inteligence - by practice to foccus the complex patterns needed to weave magic, mind as well. Soul and Life to me were not touched by them, but their attempts led them to use the proximity of essence and soul to reach it. And though life is quite far from them, they focused on itīs opposite, thus finding unlife. My guess on that is the arcaneīs skill to make undead, trap oneīs soul, keep one in stasis, etc.. Mages cant ressurect (except using clone, which is quite complex and require quite an amount of resources and time) and cant heal (they cant instill life upon another, though they can transfer life from one to another).. These are my thoughts and my :twocents: on the matter.. ;)
Rocketboy13 10-27-05, 07:53 PM	Looking over this metaphysical discussion I believe the assumption that there are 4 seperate parts is not entirely sound. We can confirm the existance of only 2 parts within the standard D&D cosmos (which is the realm I presume we are talking about). The material plane hosts the physical bodies of humanity, and is the core realm, we can assume that it is real for these purposes. The physical is real. We also have the astral body which is tied inseperably to the physical body via the silver cord. Since these two cannot be seperated by any means without the death of the body and the astral form, I must conclude that these are not seperate entities, both are the physical body just stretched into a dimension we do not normally associate with the real world. Second, we have a soul, the directing intelligence of the body. Since we know the soul can exist freely from the body in D&D (as opposed to the real world, where things are less clear) we can conclude these things to be seperate. Since the soul can exist without the body, then it is the more valuable of the two units. A new body can be constructed and animated by the soul by any number of spells. Even in the afterlife, the soul constructs a new body for itself as a paritioner on an outer plane, becomeing an embodyment of what it truely is "in spirit." :rofl: Seriously though. Since we cannot follow the path taken by a destroyed outsider, we do not know if there is indeed a deeper existance than the soul. It may be that the spell wish is so powerful it can reconstruct souls in their outsider forms, not needing a deeper something to return. However, since there is no way of knowing if a returned outsider is the same being as the one that was destroyed, or some copy made by the wish, it is possible that there is no immortal imprint, or essence, that exists beyond a temporal state of time. It is possible that in great eons vast, even gods can die. :coolcthul If I have been vague or have failed in some logical assumption, please, quote me, I shall be happy to revise my hypothesis. :D
Azual 10-27-05, 08:52 PM	Mages, or arcanists, such as Wizards, Sorcerers and Bards however go a different route. Through their study or innate knowledge of the makings of the multiverse itself, the neutral building blocks of Essence, they may touch upon all bits of existence; Mind, Life and Soul. hrm. i liked Pratchett's better; I pseudo quote: "Magic is alot like nuclear power, and its also boring. A mage snapping his fingers and making light is boring. A civilization laboring and evolving for thousands of years to tame and master fire, now that's exciting."
Outla 10-29-05, 02:30 PM	There was a bit more guidance along these lines in earlier versions of D&D, as some races had souls while others had spirits and the distinction was briefly explained. I believe your scheme would work better as three parts instead of four. Essence should be the same as soul. If necessary, add some rules about which and what types of soul can power which bodies (construct-type souls in constructs). In the earlier version I would just extend two types to three: Souls (for people), Spirits (for elves and the like), and Essence (for constructs and the like)... and each being would have one of the three. My own interest in "D&D existence" is the scientific side. For instance, what is the body made of? Is it built up out of atoms, or molecules, or protons and electrons, like the real world? Certainly not! If you cut a body in half to you get two half-bodies? Actually, no! An object is not the sum of its parts. If you look at a D&D object with a magnifying glass, or under a microscope, all you see is a close-up view of that object -- it has no seams. Even when an object is built out of parts, it (magically?) turns into a single object, which cannot later be broken down into its component parts. In D&D a body can no more be sliced in half than a soul can be sliced in half. Also an object's qualities are not inherent to its physical form... for instance a piece of wood on the ground can be blasted by fireballs, but the same piece of wood being held or carried by a sentient creature is affected by fireballs (and many other phenomena) quite differently. Although the piece of wood seems to maintain the same size, shape, and weight when picked up it actually transforms into a different type of object. So exactly which properties are changing? Soul? Mind? Essence? Something else? I prefer to think some hidden body properties... there's no reason to believe that in D&D 'size' 'weight' and 'shape' are the only physical properties. The most obvious case is the extra property of alignment -- two pieces of wood that appear to be physically identical can be quite different... one might be inherently 'good' while the other is inherently 'evil'. I tend to think D&D works better with 7 or 9 dimensions instead of 3 dimensions... but that's a discussion for another day. One particular problem in D&D is the rules of probability. It starts with 'anyone can hit anything one time out of 20', but there are many other examples once you start looking for them. Because of the way probability functions in D&D the 'scientific method' doesn't really work. That's a pretty significant statement... not just science but even the *scientific method* won't work! That's extraordinary! It's no wonder that alchemy and magic are used rather than science and technology. The rules of life and death in D&D are obviously quite different than the real world. Magic often seems to follow quite a few rules, it seems kinda scientific at times. But those rules do not include 'conservation of energy', 'conservation of mass', or a few other real-world rules. Postulating just exactly what 'physical laws' to substitute for the physical laws of our universe can be fun. There should be approximately the same number of physical laws, and they should be of about the same complexity as real ones, but not the same. One good philisophical question concerns a tree falling in the forest when there's nobody around to hear it. Does it make a sound? It's a great debate in the real world, but I submit that in D&D it doesn't make a sound. And in fact might not actually fall unless/until someone does come along to hear it fall. Think about that for awhile and you'll end up writing the book/movie 'The Never-Ending Story'.
BlaineTog 10-29-05, 02:48 PM	Outla, I think you're overthinking it.
sabrewolf 10-29-05, 04:00 PM	Outla, Considering the great (massive?) amount of animals, magical beasts, humanoids, aberrations, vermin, fae, spirits, ghosts, etc.. etc.. etc... All the many beings that crowd each and every world and plane, i guess, itīs hightly probable that thereīs at least something to hear the famous tree falling, no matter where.. :P ...just my :twocents: ..now to ponder.. if it was a tree infused with air energy or in the plane of air, would it fall at all? Fall upwards?? Would a tree inbued with negative energy become an un-tree.. or a ghostly tree (and fall twice)? :D Not just for sillyness, i question that based on one bit: the planes and their energy of elements of life and unlife (positive and negative) obvious affect the living beings or that wich have Soul.. It afect animals, so you can say it affects Life as well. But, does it affect plants too? And what of essence, is it affected by such energies or made of them??
baalzamon999 10-29-05, 04:29 PM	Essence should be the same as soul. While it would depend on the campaign setting, anyone using Magic of Incarnum should probably have Essence and Soul seperate. Essence would be not only your "imprint", but also your "soul energy", which is used in MoI. Or you could ignore me if this is stupid.