Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ahiman 05-31-06, 06:43 PM	I will be playing in a homebrew campaign where we start at 8th. One of the characters wants to be a dragon rider and I have no problem with this in and of its self. The problem is that a dragon rider needs something, a dragon. Dragons have high CRs and the class has no mechanic to compensate for this addition of CR to the party. Essentially the guy is getting a dragon as his slave (I know not in game but the way it will work out I am sure it is so) and we all get nothing. Am I just being crazy or is this something as serious as I think it is? Thanks
Solaris 05-31-06, 07:01 PM	He doesn't have to start with a dragon... He could be like a sea captain without a ship. He'll either have to obtain his own, or find someone who has one and will let him use it.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 05-31-06, 07:13 PM	You could use the Leadership feat as the mechanic for a dragon in the party, taking the dragon as a cohort. Unfortunately, at 8th level that leaves you with a max ECL of 6, which doesn't leave you with many options. So if he wants a true dragon, he might have to wait a few levels. Otherwise, there might be some lesser dragons out there that serve the pupose.
ahiman 05-31-06, 07:22 PM	I know that he doesn't have to start with a dragon but the DM will give one to him and I was thinking that he could buy a draconic hippogriff for something like 5000gp to even it out. Then he gets a "dragon" and not unbalancing. But more to the point if the DM gave him a dragon large enough for him to ride (I don't know his size small or medium) would that unbalance it? Thanks
NineInchNall 05-31-06, 08:00 PM	The standard dragon rider would need to use Leadership or Dragon Cohort to get his dragon. This dragon would be extremely weak. Don't worry about game balance at all. A Krynn Dragonrider will get his dragon in much the same way as a Druid gets an animal companion. Again, this is all factored in. Don't worry about game balance.
ahiman 05-31-06, 08:18 PM	The standard dragon rider would need to use Leadership or Dragon Cohort to get his dragon. This dragon would be extremely weak. Don't worry about game balance at all. A Krynn Dragonrider will get his dragon in much the same way as a Druid gets an animal companion. Again, this is all factored in. Don't worry about game balance. The issue is that he will neather take leadership, Dragon Cohort or be a krynn dragon rider. The dragon will be free and large enough to ride.
TheRedRobedWizard 05-31-06, 09:14 PM	There's a whole PrC dedicated to this in the Dragonlance Campaign setting, albeit you have to be 10th level to take it. And the requirements are rough. If he isn't going to take any of those feats, and he isn't going to take the PrC, then no dragon for him. -TRRW
celtredleg 05-31-06, 09:17 PM	The issue is that he will neather take leadership, Dragon Cohort or be a krynn dragon rider. The dragon will be free and large enough to ride. Definately an unbalance. A large dragon is a major power addition. He is going to leave you in the dust unless the DM powers up the rest of you.
MADGator 05-31-06, 10:09 PM	I like the idea of giving him a lesser dragon or draconic specis to begin with. Say a dragonnel, or a landwyrm. That way he has a worthwhile draconic mount....just not an all out dragon for now.
Alac Luin 06-01-06, 01:09 AM	How about something like this? Dracestrian Large Dragon Hit Dice: 3d12+9 (27 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 50ft Armor Class: 15 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11 Attack: Claw +7 melee (1d6+4) Full Attack: 2 Claw +7 melee (1d6+4) and bite +7 melee (1d4+2) and 2 wings +7 melee (1d4+2) Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft Special Attacks: - Special Qualities: Darkvision 60', low-light vision, Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects Saves: Fort +5 , Ref +4 , Will +4 Abilities: Str 18, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 8 Skills: Intimidate + 5*, Listen +7, Spot +7, Jump +10 Feats: Endurance, Run, Multiattack(B) Environment: Temperate plains Organization: Domesticated or herd (6–30) Challenge Rating: 4 Treasure: - Alignment: Typically neutral Advancement: - Level Adjustment: - A dragon mount is about the size of a light horse with large wings coming from the shoulders, the wings having a 20' wingspan. Instead of hair, the it is covered in scales and has a reptilian like head resembling that of a dragon. Dragon mounts do not speak, but are capable of learning several commands in the language of their riders. Carrying Capacity: A light load for a dragon mount is up to 300 pounds; a medium load, 301–600 pounds; and a heavy load, 601–900 pounds. A dragon mount can drag 4,500 pounds. Frightful Rearing (EX): By rearing on its hind legs and flapping it's wings, a dragon mount gets a +4 bonus to it's intimidate skill check to Demoralize Opponent. A dragon mount needs to be in an area it can extend it's wings to complete a frightful rearing. A dragon mount's rider must succeed a DC 15 ride skill check to keep from falling off. Glide (EX): A dragon mount is incapable of true flight, but its wings allow it to glide, negating any damage from a fall of any hight. It can travel horizontally up to four times the vertical it descends. A dragons mount's glide ability also reduces the DC of a jump skill check when making a long jump by one half. In order to use the glide ability, the dragon mount must be able to fully extend it's wings.
ahiman 06-01-06, 02:05 AM	How about something like this? Dracestrian Large Dragon Hit Dice: 3d12+9 (27 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 50ft Armor Class: 15 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11 Attack: Claw +7 melee (1d6+4) Full Attack: 2 Claw +7 melee (1d6+4) and bite +7 melee (1d4+2) and 2 wings +7 melee (1d4+2) Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft Special Attacks: - Special Qualities: Darkvision 60', low-light vision, Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects Saves: Fort +5 , Ref +4 , Will +4 Abilities: Str 18, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 8 Skills: Intimidate + 5*, Listen +7, Spot +7, Jump +10 Feats: Endurance, Run, Multiattack(B) Environment: Temperate plains Organization: Domesticated or herd (6–30) Challenge Rating: 3 Treasure: - Alignment: Typically neutral Advancement: - Level Adjustment: - A dragon mount is about the size of a light horse with large wings coming from the shoulders, the wings having a 20' wingspan. Instead of hair, the it is covered in scales and has a reptilian like head resembling that of a dragon. Dragon mounts do not speak, but are capable of learning several commands in the language of their riders. Carrying Capacity: A light load for a dragon mount is up to 300 pounds; a medium load, 301–600 pounds; and a heavy load, 601–900 pounds. A dragon mount can drag 4,500 pounds. Frightful Rearing (EX): By rearing on its hind legs and flapping it's wings, a dragon mount gets a +4 bonus to it's intimidate skill check to Demoralize Opponent. A dragon mount needs to be in an area it can extend it's wings to complete a frightful rearing. A dragon mount's rider must succeed a DC 15 ride skill check to keep from falling off. Glide (EX): A dragon mount is incapable of true flight, but its wings allow it to glide, negating any damage from a fall of any hight. It can travel horizontally up to four times the vertical it descends. A dragons mount's glide ability also reduces the DC of a jump skill check when making a long jump by one half. In order to use the glide ability, the dragon mount must be able to fully extend it's wings. Hmmm its good but it seems a little powerful to me maybe CR 4. Not the combat stuff but all the other things it has going on. The issue will be convincing them of this. They want dragons in the game even if it will make things not work. The DM has a dragon thing going on.
Lord Gwydion 06-01-06, 02:37 AM	Is it too late to go back and say that your character concept is "Storm Giant Jockey"? Seriously, your DM is setting up everyone in the group except the "dragonrider" for a poor gaming experience, unless you're all dragonriders (or given some other compensation of equal value). If I were your DM, I'd do what ieattrollsforbreakfast suggested. Make the character take Leadership, with a weak dragon as his cohort. He could have a Young Black (size L, CR 5) or Very Young Red (size L, CR 5) at Level 8, assuming that A: he's evil, B: he needs a Large or bigger beast to ride, and C: he can't have a cohort better than a CR 6 critter. If the DM made a custom Leadership feat, where he gets just the cohort, not the followers, and the cohort can be his level -1 (in levels or CR), then that opens up a few more dragon types to him. If he's a Gnome or Halfling, and the DM will let him ride a Medium size dragon, he's got a few more options as well.
IceFractal 06-01-06, 02:42 AM	Ironically, the best way to be a Dragon rider is to play as a Dragon (using a SS progression), and have a cohort who's a human (or whatever rider type you want). It's the only way that fits the relative strengths of the dragon and rider. Note that, unless starting at high level, you'll probably need a small creature (Kobold, perhaps?) as a rider. Alternately, you can have a cohort who's a shapeshifter (Druid/MoMF, for instance), and have them turn into something dragony.
ahiman 06-01-06, 12:58 PM	The dragon with leadership thing is a good idea but it won't happen. At this point I need to talk to them and make them see how bad this is. thanks
Gedrin 06-01-06, 03:40 PM	I've been thinking about your problem, and I may have a solution, providing your players would go for it. Let the PC play a dragonrider. Let another PC play the dragon. You'll need the dragon player to start at "Juvinile" or "Young Adult" due to size/mount issues, but I think that's probably workable in an 8+ level campaign. Perhaps let them start as a CR10 dragon, and make the dragon players work off the ECL difference with some sort of XP debt, or perhaps limit their starting wealth (and acompanying magic items). I've never done many "monster characters" so I'm not an authority on ECL/LA stuff...but LA 8-10 seems about right for a Juvinile dragon. They wouldn't likely be able to advance as dragons durring the campaign, since draconic powers are tied to age. However, they could pick up regular class levels. This is a pretty powerful combination (Dragon 10, Fighter 4 could be icky...Monk 4...blah!) but you're obviously looking for a fairly powerful campaing with starting at level 8. I would suggest letting a player play a Very Young or Young Gold Dragon. They're about as weak as you can get and still have the Large size needed. The LA would be about right. Also, you'll have the benefit of the dragon character having "Alternate Form", so they can go into town and dungeons without too much chaos. I know that the idea of a Gold Dragon PC might seem crazy, but look at the numbers and compare to an 8th level fighter with a full kit of magic items and they don't look too far off. Also, Gold/Red are better options than the others (possibly excepting Blue/Green/Silver)...they're all too old before they get big enough and old=power. If you've got dragon riders in your world, I think it's only natural for a player to want to play one, particularly in a campaign that starts out at this high a level. Simply declaring it off limits doesn't seem like a good idea. However, I think most players would realize how tremendous this sort of thing is, and understand that they should only try it if they can get major cooperation from the group. If the player can persuade someone else to give up their original concept to portray the dragon...that would go a long way to soothing my concerns about the dragon/rider stealing the spotlight. Also, it keeps the rider's dragon from being a robot under his control, but rather a proud, free willed, being with it's own ideas about the world who acts as trusted friend and ally.
Gedrin 06-01-06, 03:57 PM	Double Post
ahiman 06-01-06, 04:08 PM	good ideabut the lowest ECL for a dragon (in the draconimicon) is 12 for a midium (young 9 HD) white dragon. Now there is that problem. I would much rather he paid for a mount with some dragon template (draconic, half-dragon, and what not).
Gedrin 06-01-06, 04:42 PM	Well, I suggest that you just decide that there are no dragonriders anywhere in your game world then. IMC, there are no dragonriders, and it's never come up. If you have them, then it should be something a PC can work for. If there are real dragonriders, then PC's should have that option open to them, and not be limited to a knock-off dragonthing. If the PC's can't even work for it, then it seems wierd that NPC dragon riders are out there.
Alac Luin 06-01-06, 06:22 PM	Hmmm its good but it seems a little powerful to me maybe CR 4. Not the combat stuff but all the other things it has going on. The issue will be convincing them of this. They want dragons in the game even if it will make things not work. The DM has a dragon thing going on. After I posted it, I looked at the CR and thought it was to low, CR4 it is. It's still just above a heavy horse, so it's not as out of place as a true dragon. Personally, I don't think someone riding a true dragon is appropriate for all games.