Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gold Medal Jedi 05-26-05, 01:44 PM	Is it possible to have a human as a familiar? If so how would this work? What feats are needed? What possibilities would this provide?
Flakster 05-26-05, 02:27 PM	Just take leadership feat and get some followers.
Board_Rider 05-26-05, 02:34 PM	Well, technically speaking, anythings is possible. Ya see Gold, what we have here is a paper and pencil game played out in the mind using the descriptive wording of another person. Saying that however I would say no. Humans, generally, would be PCs only or NPCs. I guess if you had some super sentinent race that used humans as pets than it would make sense. But shilling out 100gp to "call" a human that basically does whatever you say sounds a little to close to slavery. But thats me.
Gold Medal Jedi 05-26-05, 04:14 PM	Ok first off let me say i have been playing D&D since it was in a black and white pamphlet long long ago.. so i kinda know the rules here. I know about followers and such, I also know that it sounds alot like slavery. What I'm asking about is lets assume that this was supported somehow, now what I need to know is how it is supported or rather how something like this would be supported. I wouldnt consider this a slave per se, because the connection between mage and familiar is simbiotic not parasitic. And i dont feel this person to be a follower in the sense that they could have their own free will. I see them more like a highly intelligent and like minded thrall. I had ideas on how something like this might work, so all im doing here is asking for opinions of how, if they were to allow somthing like this, would they do it. So please for the time being suspend disbelife and try to go out on a limb here and play the what if game with me. I know it sounds distasteful and usually i would say hell no never, but a new situation has occured and im just trying to gather some data to make an informed decision. Thanks in advance.
Flushmaster 05-26-05, 05:15 PM	I've had a character that had a mephit for a familiar, and mephits are sentient creatures. It's called the Improved Familiar feat. It was quite interesting though, with the little ice mephit getting into arguments with other party members then ducking underneath her master's robes. My character would threaten to light somebody on fire or such for scaring his familiar, they'd back off, then the familiar would poke out of hiding and give that PC the finger, promptly ducking back into hiding or flying away to "scout the area" at my character's request (or just deciding to seperate the familiar from fighting with my allies). I played the mephit as a seperate character of sorts, albeit a minor one that was more of an enhanced and particularly loyal lackey than anything else. She was a little hyper and had a bad attitude in many cases, but wouldn't push it too far and my PC did appreciate her loyalty and would count any threat to her as one to himself, as most characters with familiars normally do, even though he might scold her from time to time. This scolding was typically via empathic link, so the other PCs typically figured that my character was just letting his familiar be a brat, but that's part of roleplaying.
Board_Rider 05-26-05, 06:25 PM	Okay seeing as how it seems that you cannot take a joke I shall answer this again. Sure it is possible to have a Human as a familiar. With the Impvd. Familiar Feat, as Flushmaster suggested, and angreement by the DM it could happen. However the rules state that only normal, unmodified, animals may become a familiar. Having said that I would not allow it. A familiar is basically a normal creature who more or less becomes a magical beast. Humans (or any other Race) should not become magical, lose possible HD and get automatic natural armor. Another note would be that, as sentinent beings, many humans begin with their INT around the 9-10 mark. With possible higher INT scores possible the person who is a familiar may not want to be some Wizards familiar. This is entering a debate of a persons spirit and free will. And while I do not wish to get into that debate the point should be considered. Besides such questions would have to be answered such as - What does the Humans Family think of this? - How did the Wizard decide to take a Human Familiar? - What happens when the Human wants to leave? There is more but I am done for now.
Gold Medal Jedi 05-26-05, 07:55 PM	Okay seeing as how it seems that you cannot take a joke I shall answer this again. Sure it is possible to have a Human as a familiar. With the Impvd. Familiar Feat, as Flushmaster suggested, and angreement by the DM it could happen. However the rules state that only normal, unmodified, animals may become a familiar. Having said that I would not allow it. A familiar is basically a normal creature who more or less becomes a magical beast. Humans (or any other Race) should not become magical, lose possible HD and get automatic natural armor. Another note would be that, as sentinent beings, many humans begin with their INT around the 9-10 mark. With possible higher INT scores possible the person who is a familiar may not want to be some Wizards familiar. This is entering a debate of a persons spirit and free will. And while I do not wish to get into that debate the point should be considered. Besides such questions would have to be answered such as - What does the Humans Family think of this? - How did the Wizard decide to take a Human Familiar? - What happens when the Human wants to leave? There is more but I am done for now. You see the problem with your answer is this, Im not asking why it shouldnt be allowed, or even if you would allow it, what im asking is, if something like this were to be allowed how would a person go about adjudicating that it be done. I dont want a morality debate here, just some possible and sensible rules for something like this. Now as the poster before you so helpfully pointed out, sentience and intelligence has nothing to do with familiars being chosen. Pseudodragons and mephits are clearly intelligent and have free will and possibly families, yet they, under the rules of improved familiar, can become familiars. Secondly, only commoners have an intelligence of 10 or round about. This would clearly not be a commoner, more of a simple minded fool in some cases that would blithely follow someone into what ever they desired. Sorta like the relationship between dustin hoffman and tom cruise in Rainman. This person would be more of an idiot sevant. And i would be thier "gaurdian", now not having a familiar, and taking the feat of improved familiar, and a possible greater familiar feat (im not sure that this doesnt already exist), would it then be feaseable to call this charge a familiar thus getting all the benefits of cast spells through them and even a telepathic link to them.
Draco Strang 05-26-05, 08:23 PM	Wow Gold Medal Jedi, take a freakin' chill pill. Ole' Board Rider tries to tell you in a calm way why he thinks it wouldn't work, and you get all defensive. We're a community here. Relax. That said, I really don't think it's feasible, possible, or "right" in the moral sense to take a human as a familiar. In fact, it's little more than slavery. Sure, I'd let you take a human as a familiar, provided you gave him half your experience, treasure, food, and sleeping quarters. After all, you're supposed to care more about your familiar than your party members. It's an extension of yourself. See where I'm going with this?
Seeker95 05-26-05, 08:41 PM	I would say no. But not for any morality reasons. I would say no because all of the familiars listed are either magical versions of non-sentient creatures *or* supernatural creatures. A human is sentient but not supernatural. Take one as a familiar and you get an average joe with no powers. Humans are not good familiars. They are too sentient to fit the base category, and They are too mundane to fit the second. However, if you were to allow a human as a familiar: it would not be allowed to gain class levels. it would grant its master the "special ability" of all of the following: +2 bonus to ignoring the obvious +2 bonus to willful self-destruction 1 free level in "commoner"
Gold Medal Jedi 05-26-05, 10:35 PM	Wow Gold Medal Jedi, take a freakin' chill pill. Ole' Board Rider tries to tell you in a calm way why he thinks it wouldn't work, and you get all defensive. We're a community here. Relax. That said, I really don't think it's feasible, possible, or "right" in the moral sense to take a human as a familiar. In fact, it's little more than slavery. Sure, I'd let you take a human as a familiar, provided you gave him half your experience, treasure, food, and sleeping quarters. After all, you're supposed to care more about your familiar than your party members. It's an extension of yourself. See where I'm going with this? You mistake my tone.. im just being factual and trying to keep the answers im getting from railing off into a moral debate. I am simply looking for data to analyze on the possibility of this. But in your ramblings you have given me something to consider. Yes you are right i should care more for the familiar than i would in the party, and as i have already stated the relationship would be something akin to Rainman. So i would most likely give him gold, shelter, food, and would give him XP, but i dont think i would have to. Do i have to give my raven familiar half my XP? Nope so i feel this part would be unneccesary. And unlike a slave, he is well taken care of and guidance provided, sort of like having a mentally challenged child (or rather family member) that i would have gaurdianship of. But by all means do not mistake my tone. I am not upset, just being matter of factual. Im looking for specific kinds of responses. Not debate over the moral justness, nor whether you would allow it. Just simply how would something like this be facilitated with in the existing rules.
Gold Medal Jedi 05-26-05, 10:43 PM	I would say no. But not for any morality reasons. I would say no because all of the familiars listed are either magical versions of non-sentient creatures *or* supernatural creatures. A human is sentient but not supernatural. Take one as a familiar and you get an average joe with no powers. Humans are not good familiars. They are too sentient to fit the base category, and They are too mundane to fit the second. However, if you were to allow a human as a familiar: it would not be allowed to gain class levels. it would grant its master the "special ability" of all of the following: +2 bonus to ignoring the obvious +2 bonus to willful self-destruction 1 free level in "commoner" now this is more like it, you have provided me with (albeit comical) useable statistics to consider. An argument could be made that although some familiars are supernatural, and/or magical, this in no way makes them less sentient. they would still posess a will of thier own and possibly present antogonistic situations for their owner. What exactly are the qualfications for viable familiars? Is there a list of pre-requisites for consideration of possible familiars? I have seen the list of possible familiars, but no where does it state that those are the only things possible. Now as for a human as i have stated many times now. I am not going into a town and pulling Joe Schmo from a crowd and saying now your mine. Im taking on a mentally challenged orphan, and by the way, Yes im evil.
Board_Rider 05-26-05, 10:47 PM	Okay if you want to completely go with something new here that I think that the ol BR has something for ya. Pretty much what you said. It would have to be somewhat of a brotherly kinda thing...pretty much a stupid younger brother who follows you around. It would require the Impvd. Familiar Feat. Now as far as possibilities. - He would be able to finish spells as you cast through him - He would not be able to occupy the same 5' square as you as a normal familiar would. - He could follow simple commands only - He would have, possibly, a level in commoner. - He shouldn't get natural armor or Improved Evasion. Those are my opinions. As far as trying to give you pointers on how to argue for a Human commoner, I can't. Can you perhaps get an undead human as a follower? As a side note I would like to say it sounds as if you want, or are going to try, for this no matter what anyone here says. I really just don't get what you're looking for here. If your DM doesn't allow it..tough. If he does, go for it. You're basically going for something way outside the rules here. For a guy whose been playing since the "pamphlet days" I honestly don't see why you would need help in the first place.
Gold Medal Jedi 05-26-05, 11:13 PM	Actually its not me who wants it. And my DM is considering allowing it. I am just gathering some information to help argue both sides for them. And since i too would never allow it Im just looking for some what if scenarios to prepare me. By the way thanks BR that was precisely what i was looking for. As for undead, achh, i would just go true necromancer and start calling skeletons. thanks again though.. this will help alot in keeping something like this balanced if my DM goes through with it.
Board_Rider 05-26-05, 11:29 PM	Perhaps to it could be treated as a "Special Mount" found on pg.204 of the 3.5DMG. Of course this is not a mount but the rule of Diplomacy to make it do things is a intriguing idea. The Alertness Feat could still apply as well but I would also have the same skillset for the Wizard instead of any one NPC class.