A question about the Apostle of Peace [Archive] - Wizards Community

A question about the Apostle of Peace [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kiatic
11-09-05, 12:45 PM If this has been done before I am sorry.
One of the feat requirements of becoming an Apostle of Peace is to have taken a Vow of Povety.
In the weapon and armour proficiency section it states
As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armour, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as rings of protection or bracers of armour). An apostle of peace who wears armour is unable who wears any armour is unable to cast apostle of peace spells or use any of his supernatural class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours there after.
So does the wearing of armour and/or magic items breaks the character’s vow of poverty? I would have said yes but is this an odd case that it does not. Or is it just their incase a character breaks a vow of poverty and then decides to strap on nice shiny armour/ magic items.
malykoth
11-09-05, 01:04 PM This comes up a lot...here's what I posted about it a ways back:

Yes, this has vexed many people...the whole Apostle of Peace class was poorly thought out, or at least very poorly written up. It says you must have the Vow of Peace, but gives you a power that violates that Vow. It says you must have the Vow of Poverty, but says (in a vague way) that you "may wear magic items that protect" you. It's a half-baked, contradictory mess...though at heart I think it is a worthy and interesting concept. When we use this class in a game (it's come up twice), we adjudicate it like this: the Apostle class superceeds the restrictions of the Vows, but only in the narrow circumstances outlined in the class description. 'Censure Fiends' can be used freely against fiends, but you'd better not try harming a non-fiend (constructs and undead are still okay to harm, of course). You can gain the benefit of a ring of protection, but don't try on boots of speed, or you take the penalty.

And for the "protective device" clause? We also limit it the following ways: One, you treat the player's Apostle of Peace class level as his full character level for determining the maximum value of any items he possesses (a 12 level character with only 2 levels of AoP could have items totaling no more than 2,700 gp). Two, you still cannot buy items. All your treasure still goes to the poor, and you must rely on donations to gain protective items. As a bit of compensation, you may use spells and even weapons to hurt fiends, in addition to using censure.
Kyuketsukiouji
11-09-05, 01:05 PM Since you don't actually lose the feat "Vow of Poverty" if you break your vow, I think this section was put in specifically in case you broke your vow, and then decided to wear armor.

Either that or whoever wrote that bit forgot that the vow of poverty prevents the wearing of armor and any magic item.
kiatic
11-09-05, 01:14 PM Thanks very much for your insight. It has not come up yet as the monk/paladin with the VOP enjoys kicking evil monsters into touch too much to take the class!!
Kyuketsukiouji
11-09-05, 11:50 PM 'Censure Fiends' can be used freely against fiends, but you'd better not try harming a non-fiend (constructs and undead are still okay to harm, of course). You can gain the benefit of a ring of protection, but don't try on boots of speed, or you take the penalty.

Both the Vow of Nonviolence and the Vow of Peace do allow you to use non-lethal, non-painful attacks against people, which is what censure does (It stuns or banishes, none of which is damaging in the least).

But I do agree with you, that in general, the Apostle is very badly worded.
malykoth
11-10-05, 12:14 AM Both the Vow of Nonviolence and the Vow of Peace do allow you to use non-lethal, non-painful attacks against people, which is what censure does (It stuns or banishes, none of which is damaging in the least).

Yeah...we always figured that stunning was painful, and therefore against the Vow, but I'm not trying to argue the issue. It does seem that your interpretation could be the more internally consistent one...not that it mattered, since we house-ruled that you could hurt evil outsiders if necessary if you were an AoP. The idea was that the Apostles were supposed to actually take the "good fight" to the fiends, themselves. That would also explain why the PTB allowed the Apostles a dispensation on their poverty vows...to help them in their fight.

It might lead to an interesting crisis of faith, though. I mean, you're supposed to view the desire of and reliance on material items as obstacles in your path towards enlightenment, yes? if you can justify the use of a magic ring to aid in protecting yourself (against the forces of evil, of course), how can you not start to appreciate the ring's benefits? Suddenly, a material item has some kind of worth to you...but the gods look down on your impending ethical melt-down, give a big wink, and stage whisper "don't worry about it...it's all good!" What's an exalted kind of guy supposed to think? Especially a chaotic one. A lawful might just view it as a "orders from my superior, therefore no problem...by-your-command!" type thing.
kiatic
11-10-05, 12:55 PM The VoP in my opinon is powerful enough without allowing the apostle of peace to stack extra magical protection on himself.
I would have trouble with the spirit of the VoP if by taking a level is a prestige class allows you to keep the vop and use magical items. Have you cake and eat it.
Kyuketsukiouji
11-10-05, 09:18 PM The VoP in my opinon is powerful enough without allowing the apostle of peace to stack extra magical protection on himself.
I would have trouble with the spirit of the VoP if by taking a level is a prestige class allows you to keep the vop and use magical items. Have you cake and eat it.

Same here. I don't allow the Apostle of Peace to use magic items as long as their Vow is unbroken. And obviously, deliberately breaking it is a definite no-no.

I'd be curious to see what custserv has to say about this one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kiatic 11-09-05, 12:45 PM	If this has been done before I am sorry. One of the feat requirements of becoming an Apostle of Peace is to have taken a Vow of Povety. In the weapon and armour proficiency section it states As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armour, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as rings of protection or bracers of armour). An apostle of peace who wears armour is unable who wears any armour is unable to cast apostle of peace spells or use any of his supernatural class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours there after. So does the wearing of armour and/or magic items breaks the character’s vow of poverty? I would have said yes but is this an odd case that it does not. Or is it just their incase a character breaks a vow of poverty and then decides to strap on nice shiny armour/ magic items.
malykoth 11-09-05, 01:04 PM	This comes up a lot...here's what I posted about it a ways back: Yes, this has vexed many people...the whole Apostle of Peace class was poorly thought out, or at least very poorly written up. It says you must have the Vow of Peace, but gives you a power that violates that Vow. It says you must have the Vow of Poverty, but says (in a vague way) that you "may wear magic items that protect" you. It's a half-baked, contradictory mess...though at heart I think it is a worthy and interesting concept. When we use this class in a game (it's come up twice), we adjudicate it like this: the Apostle class superceeds the restrictions of the Vows, but only in the narrow circumstances outlined in the class description. 'Censure Fiends' can be used freely against fiends, but you'd better not try harming a non-fiend (constructs and undead are still okay to harm, of course). You can gain the benefit of a ring of protection, but don't try on boots of speed, or you take the penalty. And for the "protective device" clause? We also limit it the following ways: One, you treat the player's Apostle of Peace class level as his full character level for determining the maximum value of any items he possesses (a 12 level character with only 2 levels of AoP could have items totaling no more than 2,700 gp). Two, you still cannot buy items. All your treasure still goes to the poor, and you must rely on donations to gain protective items. As a bit of compensation, you may use spells and even weapons to hurt fiends, in addition to using censure.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-09-05, 01:05 PM	Since you don't actually lose the feat "Vow of Poverty" if you break your vow, I think this section was put in specifically in case you broke your vow, and then decided to wear armor. Either that or whoever wrote that bit forgot that the vow of poverty prevents the wearing of armor and any magic item.
kiatic 11-09-05, 01:14 PM	Thanks very much for your insight. It has not come up yet as the monk/paladin with the VOP enjoys kicking evil monsters into touch too much to take the class!!
Kyuketsukiouji 11-09-05, 11:50 PM	'Censure Fiends' can be used freely against fiends, but you'd better not try harming a non-fiend (constructs and undead are still okay to harm, of course). You can gain the benefit of a ring of protection, but don't try on boots of speed, or you take the penalty. Both the Vow of Nonviolence and the Vow of Peace do allow you to use non-lethal, non-painful attacks against people, which is what censure does (It stuns or banishes, none of which is damaging in the least). But I do agree with you, that in general, the Apostle is very badly worded.
malykoth 11-10-05, 12:14 AM	Both the Vow of Nonviolence and the Vow of Peace do allow you to use non-lethal, non-painful attacks against people, which is what censure does (It stuns or banishes, none of which is damaging in the least). Yeah...we always figured that stunning was painful, and therefore against the Vow, but I'm not trying to argue the issue. It does seem that your interpretation could be the more internally consistent one...not that it mattered, since we house-ruled that you could hurt evil outsiders if necessary if you were an AoP. The idea was that the Apostles were supposed to actually take the "good fight" to the fiends, themselves. That would also explain why the PTB allowed the Apostles a dispensation on their poverty vows...to help them in their fight. It might lead to an interesting crisis of faith, though. I mean, you're supposed to view the desire of and reliance on material items as obstacles in your path towards enlightenment, yes? if you can justify the use of a magic ring to aid in protecting yourself (against the forces of evil, of course), how can you not start to appreciate the ring's benefits? Suddenly, a material item has some kind of worth to you...but the gods look down on your impending ethical melt-down, give a big wink, and stage whisper "don't worry about it...it's all good!" What's an exalted kind of guy supposed to think? Especially a chaotic one. A lawful might just view it as a "orders from my superior, therefore no problem...by-your-command!" type thing.
kiatic 11-10-05, 12:55 PM	The VoP in my opinon is powerful enough without allowing the apostle of peace to stack extra magical protection on himself. I would have trouble with the spirit of the VoP if by taking a level is a prestige class allows you to keep the vop and use magical items. Have you cake and eat it.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-10-05, 09:18 PM	The VoP in my opinon is powerful enough without allowing the apostle of peace to stack extra magical protection on himself. I would have trouble with the spirit of the VoP if by taking a level is a prestige class allows you to keep the vop and use magical items. Have you cake and eat it. Same here. I don't allow the Apostle of Peace to use magic items as long as their Vow is unbroken. And obviously, deliberately breaking it is a definite no-no. I'd be curious to see what custserv has to say about this one.