A question inspired by the book of exalted deeds [Archive] - Wizards Community

A question inspired by the book of exalted deeds [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Illithid13
08-03-05, 10:56 AM Hi, I'm new to these bords, but not new to the game. I've been playing since 1ed and have my fair shair of DMing experience. I just wanted to pose this question to some other people than my usual friends to see what they think.

A buddy of mine and I were talking about how some of the stuff in the BoED and BoVD are just super insain cool. It covers the extreams!

One of our favorite things from the BoED is the sacrad vow and Vow of poverty. It really can make the role playing part of the game much more difficult, since the game is generally baised upon the premis of gaining wealth and magic items.

Then My buddy asked me, what if someone who has taken these two vows comes accross an inteligent item? would they treat it as an object or as the indivitual they truely are?

I argue that they would more than likely view it as a possesion before they come to view it as a sienteant being, and as such, would probably give it to his "church" or someone who looks down on his luck.

My friend said that he thinks that if it was an int item of lesser power, the character under the vow would be inclined to keep it as a compainion and helper (assuming compatable alignment and all), and even might try to sway the item to his ways.

Now, I'm not sure. If it were one of great power, like an epic one, I'm sure the character would give it to his "church," but I'm starting to see where my buddy is comming from.

What do you guys say?

For those of you unfimaliar with the vow of poverty, it requires the character to not have Magical items.
Illion the Red
08-03-05, 11:06 AM The Vow of Poverty provides the PC with a HUGE power boost. The reason for this is that it also takes away a significant part of the game world away...namely magic items. A magic item, no matter how intelligent, is still an item. If a player wishes to tote around a hyper-intelligent magical staff and call it a "companion" then they should put their "companion" on the ground and continue walking so that their "companion" can catch up. Otherwise, they lose the VoP...forever. No recourse, no attonement, no second chance.

If it even seems questionable, the player should have enough sense of the spirit of the vow to realize this. If not, then the player probably should not be using the vow.

The vows require a very mature roleplaying mindset, especially when they state in no uncertain terms that "the ends never justify the means." This means no exceptions, ever. There are no workarounds, tricks, or other ways to circumvent the requirements of the vow.

I know that I may have taken a stern tone in this post, and for that, I apologize, but this is something I have a fair amount of passion about and, well, I tend to get a bit worked up about it.
CzarGarrett
08-03-05, 01:18 PM As a DM- I would probably (and this isn't a definite) allow a VoP character to carry an intelligent item, without using it, on the behalf of said item.

If a VoP character comes across a dead paladin's sword and it wishes to be transported to the grave of the paladin (or to the paladin's ancestor, etc), I'd allow the VoP to carry the sword. However, the sword would have to remain in sheath and could not be used under any circumstances.

Although I'd like to think that another character in the group would be able to carry it instead of the VoP, but if they're all VoP or for some reason there's no one able to carry the sword (evil, single PC campaign, etc).
Illion the Red
08-03-05, 01:51 PM As a DM- I would probably (and this isn't a definite) allow a VoP character to carry an intelligent item, without using it, on the behalf of said item.

If a VoP character comes across a dead paladin's sword and it wishes to be transported to the grave of the paladin (or to the paladin's ancestor, etc), I'd allow the VoP to carry the sword. However, the sword would have to remain in sheath and could not be used under any circumstances.

Although I'd like to think that another character in the group would be able to carry it instead of the VoP, but if they're all VoP or for some reason there's no one able to carry the sword (evil, single PC campaign, etc).

I'd agree with you there as the VoP character is receiving no benefit from carrying the sword. This is the same as a VoP character taking his share of treasure, carrying it into town, and buying food and goods to give to the needy. He is receiving no material benefit from it, but carrying it to another place is not a problem in this case. If he ever drew the sword to use it, he'd lose the VoP.
Illithid13
08-03-05, 02:15 PM So the contest of wills isn't even a factor? The item never gets the chance to exert his will over the character or vice-a-versa. I thought that this happened as soon as the character picked up the item.

And as the companion/helper role, I was thinking of more along the lines of another "Mind" to help him figure out riddles and problems. I FULLY understand that if they were ever to use the item as a tool, be it destructive, constructive or even recreational, the VoP would become null and void. I just wanted to know that if the VoP character was keeping it as a "friend," or because the item convinced them that it is a real soul traped inside of the body (or some other reason), would this break his Vow?

I do appologise about the mis-understanding. (Don't worry about comming across to strongly, I understand that people have passionate topics)
Loren Pechtel
08-03-05, 10:36 PM As a DM- I would probably (and this isn't a definite) allow a VoP character to carry an intelligent item, without using it, on the behalf of said item.

If a VoP character comes across a dead paladin's sword and it wishes to be transported to the grave of the paladin (or to the paladin's ancestor, etc), I'd allow the VoP to carry the sword. However, the sword would have to remain in sheath and could not be used under any circumstances.

Although I'd like to think that another character in the group would be able to carry it instead of the VoP, but if they're all VoP or for some reason there's no one able to carry the sword (evil, single PC campaign, etc).

A VoP character can transport magic items anyway.
Udnamtam
08-06-05, 11:18 PM I say, go for it. A VoP character that hauls around some weapon as a pal and companion is an awesome idea. If there's some puzzle to be solved, the weapon's insight on the matter would be perfectly acceptable. As long as the item is being treated more as an NPC than an item, I'd be cool with it.

And as far as a "contest of will" goes, that'd be an interesting plot device, and it depends on the out come. For instance, if the item is aware of the charcter's inability to own things, and so it convinces the PC that their not using the item, the item's using them, I'd give the okay to keep the VoP. But if the item convinces the PC to forgoe its vow etc. then its entirely not okay to keep the VoP benefits.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Illithid13 08-03-05, 10:56 AM	Hi, I'm new to these bords, but not new to the game. I've been playing since 1ed and have my fair shair of DMing experience. I just wanted to pose this question to some other people than my usual friends to see what they think. A buddy of mine and I were talking about how some of the stuff in the BoED and BoVD are just super insain cool. It covers the extreams! One of our favorite things from the BoED is the sacrad vow and Vow of poverty. It really can make the role playing part of the game much more difficult, since the game is generally baised upon the premis of gaining wealth and magic items. Then My buddy asked me, what if someone who has taken these two vows comes accross an inteligent item? would they treat it as an object or as the indivitual they truely are? I argue that they would more than likely view it as a possesion before they come to view it as a sienteant being, and as such, would probably give it to his "church" or someone who looks down on his luck. My friend said that he thinks that if it was an int item of lesser power, the character under the vow would be inclined to keep it as a compainion and helper (assuming compatable alignment and all), and even might try to sway the item to his ways. Now, I'm not sure. If it were one of great power, like an epic one, I'm sure the character would give it to his "church," but I'm starting to see where my buddy is comming from. What do you guys say? For those of you unfimaliar with the vow of poverty, it requires the character to not have Magical items.
Illion the Red 08-03-05, 11:06 AM	The Vow of Poverty provides the PC with a HUGE power boost. The reason for this is that it also takes away a significant part of the game world away...namely magic items. A magic item, no matter how intelligent, is still an item. If a player wishes to tote around a hyper-intelligent magical staff and call it a "companion" then they should put their "companion" on the ground and continue walking so that their "companion" can catch up. Otherwise, they lose the VoP...forever. No recourse, no attonement, no second chance. If it even seems questionable, the player should have enough sense of the spirit of the vow to realize this. If not, then the player probably should not be using the vow. The vows require a very mature roleplaying mindset, especially when they state in no uncertain terms that "the ends never justify the means." This means no exceptions, ever. There are no workarounds, tricks, or other ways to circumvent the requirements of the vow. I know that I may have taken a stern tone in this post, and for that, I apologize, but this is something I have a fair amount of passion about and, well, I tend to get a bit worked up about it.
CzarGarrett 08-03-05, 01:18 PM	As a DM- I would probably (and this isn't a definite) allow a VoP character to carry an intelligent item, without using it, on the behalf of said item. If a VoP character comes across a dead paladin's sword and it wishes to be transported to the grave of the paladin (or to the paladin's ancestor, etc), I'd allow the VoP to carry the sword. However, the sword would have to remain in sheath and could not be used under any circumstances. Although I'd like to think that another character in the group would be able to carry it instead of the VoP, but if they're all VoP or for some reason there's no one able to carry the sword (evil, single PC campaign, etc).
Illion the Red 08-03-05, 01:51 PM	As a DM- I would probably (and this isn't a definite) allow a VoP character to carry an intelligent item, without using it, on the behalf of said item. If a VoP character comes across a dead paladin's sword and it wishes to be transported to the grave of the paladin (or to the paladin's ancestor, etc), I'd allow the VoP to carry the sword. However, the sword would have to remain in sheath and could not be used under any circumstances. Although I'd like to think that another character in the group would be able to carry it instead of the VoP, but if they're all VoP or for some reason there's no one able to carry the sword (evil, single PC campaign, etc). I'd agree with you there as the VoP character is receiving no benefit from carrying the sword. This is the same as a VoP character taking his share of treasure, carrying it into town, and buying food and goods to give to the needy. He is receiving no material benefit from it, but carrying it to another place is not a problem in this case. If he ever drew the sword to use it, he'd lose the VoP.
Illithid13 08-03-05, 02:15 PM	So the contest of wills isn't even a factor? The item never gets the chance to exert his will over the character or vice-a-versa. I thought that this happened as soon as the character picked up the item. And as the companion/helper role, I was thinking of more along the lines of another "Mind" to help him figure out riddles and problems. I FULLY understand that if they were ever to use the item as a tool, be it destructive, constructive or even recreational, the VoP would become null and void. I just wanted to know that if the VoP character was keeping it as a "friend," or because the item convinced them that it is a real soul traped inside of the body (or some other reason), would this break his Vow? I do appologise about the mis-understanding. (Don't worry about comming across to strongly, I understand that people have passionate topics)
Loren Pechtel 08-03-05, 10:36 PM	As a DM- I would probably (and this isn't a definite) allow a VoP character to carry an intelligent item, without using it, on the behalf of said item. If a VoP character comes across a dead paladin's sword and it wishes to be transported to the grave of the paladin (or to the paladin's ancestor, etc), I'd allow the VoP to carry the sword. However, the sword would have to remain in sheath and could not be used under any circumstances. Although I'd like to think that another character in the group would be able to carry it instead of the VoP, but if they're all VoP or for some reason there's no one able to carry the sword (evil, single PC campaign, etc). A VoP character can transport magic items anyway.
Udnamtam 08-06-05, 11:18 PM	I say, go for it. A VoP character that hauls around some weapon as a pal and companion is an awesome idea. If there's some puzzle to be solved, the weapon's insight on the matter would be perfectly acceptable. As long as the item is being treated more as an NPC than an item, I'd be cool with it. And as far as a "contest of will" goes, that'd be an interesting plot device, and it depends on the out come. For instance, if the item is aware of the charcter's inability to own things, and so it convinces the PC that their not using the item, the item's using them, I'd give the okay to keep the VoP. But if the item convinces the PC to forgoe its vow etc. then its entirely not okay to keep the VoP benefits.