A Question of Heaven [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Question of Heaven [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Brizzt_Burden
02-08-06, 12:40 PM Hi to all,as most people say in D&D General,sorry if I posted at the wrong place but I couldn't find anything more specific

Here goes
I have read the PhB and DMG and haven't found clear information about the afterlife.
The FRcs has more information ("when people die their souls go to the Fugue Plane,mpla... mpla.... their gods send representatives to take them to their Realm").I am not posting this in FR thread because I want a general answer about any kind of afterlife.

The question is:How does the knowledge of afterlife affect society? If someone has a clear indication that afterlife,Gods etc. exist and that after he/she dies he/she will go to their plane/realm/whatever, then he/she is not afraid to die, right?

If it is so,then everything changes.Psicology,fear,self preservation instincts do not function in the way we know them???

Now someone might say that the fact that a cleric knows his god will take care of his soul does't mean that said cleric wants to die because then he doesn't contribute to his deity's cause anymore.
Ok,but if that cleric is taken captive and he is going to spend the rest of his life captured, then he must be willing to die than taken captive since he won't contribute to his God's cause anyway...

(The clerics are just an example,the question was ment to be general for any character that has clear proof of his God's existance and knows about the afterlife)
CzarGarrett
02-08-06, 01:12 PM Generally, souls go to planes based on their alignments and in turn become petitioners/absorbed into the essence of the plane.

Followers of a specific God would go to whatever plane they live on.

Just because you are dead, doesn't mean you still don't serve a purpose.
Khael
02-08-06, 01:12 PM If my knowledge of D&D afterlife's is correct (not that likely i'm afraid),when a person dies they can be recreated on the plane(or one of the planes) of their alignment or in the case of clerics, the service of their god.
By the former i meant as in a CE person goes to the Abyss, a LE the nine hells, etc.

I reckon that the afterlife knowledge is not widespread in the D&D worlds, IE your average peasant has little actual knowledge of where he goes, while a cleric believes he goes to his gods service.

Basically think of it in real life terms. If you think you will go to a good places, (one of the lawful/good palces) you will be willing to die for the right cause, but will not actively seek death etc...unless your god actually tells you to.

About the only difference in term of how the afterlife affects society from that in RL is that a few people in D&D society (clerics) actually have been told what happens, and the Gods will on occassion actually tell you if your doing the right thing.

Just my take on things...
Tzor
02-08-06, 03:07 PM The following comes from a scenario independent look at the rules as written. I remember looking at this a while ago when I was in a discussion about "necromancy" as the term normally was used in the real world. (In D&D the term means anything with the dead/undead, but in the real world it was a term that meant divination using the summoned souls of the departed.)

I discovered that technically speaking "necromancy" doesn't exist in the RAW. Speak with dead, as written doesn't talk to the soul of the departed and is more accurately, "animate dead person's brain for a short while." Divination spells may let you contact denizens of other planes but not with souls of the departed per se.

More interesting, resurrection spells do not give you any rememberence of your brief stay in the afterlife. (I don't have the books with me at the moment, but I seem to recall that somewhere in the spells.)

So there is nothing in the RAW that supports any sort of afterlife at all.

Of course there is nothing in the RAW that denies it either.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
02-08-06, 04:04 PM As an addition, petitioners have no memory of their previous life. (Those in Elysium are the exception, but you can't leave Elysium. It traps you.) So, people would tend to believe in a different afterlife than the somewhat nihilistic one that exists in the default multiverse.
Brizzt_Burden
02-09-06, 06:55 AM Hey!!!!

Thanx very much everybody who took the time to reply. (What is RAW by the way?)

I just wanted to clarify that my question is not about the NATURE of the afterlife and whether somebody who has died and comes back to life has any remaining knowledge about the afterlife or not.

It is about the way people behave in the face of death.

(for eg.in city of the spider queen,Irae tsaran is "completely unafraid of death" as the module says, due to the nature of her religion -undeath-.
This gives her a distinct advantage (or maybe disadvantage) over non-believers.)

Does that mean that every bad guy the PCs fight would rather die,than be taken prisoner?

It is the whole problem with the Gods being so much involved with the world in the FR campaign

When the worst thing that can happen to you is to go and live in your deity's plane(so your ego is basically IMMORTAL) then no one would behave like a normal mortal being.Am I the only one to see how much this element affects a campaign and it's realism???

No other DM or Player has ever encounter this problem?
Elbethamore
02-09-06, 04:35 PM I don't have much to add to this discussion, although it's very interesting...

I just wanted to point you, for further reading, to the Complete Divine, which I believe has a few pages dedicated to death and the afterlife. Worth looking at if you're trying to get as much material as possible.
Escef
02-09-06, 04:40 PM Just as in real life, most everyone believes they shall be among their diety's chosen and live eternally in bliss/tyrannical rule/whatever makes them happy. But it takes a truely exceptional/brave/stupid/desperate/whatever individual to actually fight to the death. Regardless of what an individual believes, pain and fear of death are pretty strong motivaters to the endevour of staying alive. Besides, all we do during life is lost to us once we die, or at least in D&D it is unless/until one gets raised/resurrected/whatevered somehow (barring any truely rare circumstances).

So, why live at all when one can walk eternally with the gods? The best answer one can give is human nature. As for who/what made humans/humanoids/things/whatever thois way and for what purpose (if any), that is up to the DM.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Brizzt_Burden 02-08-06, 12:40 PM	Hi to all,as most people say in D&D General,sorry if I posted at the wrong place but I couldn't find anything more specific Here goes I have read the PhB and DMG and haven't found clear information about the afterlife. The FRcs has more information ("when people die their souls go to the Fugue Plane,mpla... mpla.... their gods send representatives to take them to their Realm").I am not posting this in FR thread because I want a general answer about any kind of afterlife. The question is:How does the knowledge of afterlife affect society? If someone has a clear indication that afterlife,Gods etc. exist and that after he/she dies he/she will go to their plane/realm/whatever, then he/she is not afraid to die, right? If it is so,then everything changes.Psicology,fear,self preservation instincts do not function in the way we know them??? Now someone might say that the fact that a cleric knows his god will take care of his soul does't mean that said cleric wants to die because then he doesn't contribute to his deity's cause anymore. Ok,but if that cleric is taken captive and he is going to spend the rest of his life captured, then he must be willing to die than taken captive since he won't contribute to his God's cause anyway... (The clerics are just an example,the question was ment to be general for any character that has clear proof of his God's existance and knows about the afterlife)
CzarGarrett 02-08-06, 01:12 PM	Generally, souls go to planes based on their alignments and in turn become petitioners/absorbed into the essence of the plane. Followers of a specific God would go to whatever plane they live on. Just because you are dead, doesn't mean you still don't serve a purpose.
Khael 02-08-06, 01:12 PM	If my knowledge of D&D afterlife's is correct (not that likely i'm afraid),when a person dies they can be recreated on the plane(or one of the planes) of their alignment or in the case of clerics, the service of their god. By the former i meant as in a CE person goes to the Abyss, a LE the nine hells, etc. I reckon that the afterlife knowledge is not widespread in the D&D worlds, IE your average peasant has little actual knowledge of where he goes, while a cleric believes he goes to his gods service. Basically think of it in real life terms. If you think you will go to a good places, (one of the lawful/good palces) you will be willing to die for the right cause, but will not actively seek death etc...unless your god actually tells you to. About the only difference in term of how the afterlife affects society from that in RL is that a few people in D&D society (clerics) actually have been told what happens, and the Gods will on occassion actually tell you if your doing the right thing. Just my take on things...
Tzor 02-08-06, 03:07 PM	The following comes from a scenario independent look at the rules as written. I remember looking at this a while ago when I was in a discussion about "necromancy" as the term normally was used in the real world. (In D&D the term means anything with the dead/undead, but in the real world it was a term that meant divination using the summoned souls of the departed.) I discovered that technically speaking "necromancy" doesn't exist in the RAW. Speak with dead, as written doesn't talk to the soul of the departed and is more accurately, "animate dead person's brain for a short while." Divination spells may let you contact denizens of other planes but not with souls of the departed per se. More interesting, resurrection spells do not give you any rememberence of your brief stay in the afterlife. (I don't have the books with me at the moment, but I seem to recall that somewhere in the spells.) So there is nothing in the RAW that supports any sort of afterlife at all. Of course there is nothing in the RAW that denies it either.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-08-06, 04:04 PM	As an addition, petitioners have no memory of their previous life. (Those in Elysium are the exception, but you can't leave Elysium. It traps you.) So, people would tend to believe in a different afterlife than the somewhat nihilistic one that exists in the default multiverse.
Brizzt_Burden 02-09-06, 06:55 AM	Hey!!!! Thanx very much everybody who took the time to reply. (What is RAW by the way?) I just wanted to clarify that my question is not about the NATURE of the afterlife and whether somebody who has died and comes back to life has any remaining knowledge about the afterlife or not. It is about the way people behave in the face of death. (for eg.in city of the spider queen,Irae tsaran is "completely unafraid of death" as the module says, due to the nature of her religion -undeath-. This gives her a distinct advantage (or maybe disadvantage) over non-believers.) Does that mean that every bad guy the PCs fight would rather die,than be taken prisoner? It is the whole problem with the Gods being so much involved with the world in the FR campaign When the worst thing that can happen to you is to go and live in your deity's plane(so your ego is basically IMMORTAL) then no one would behave like a normal mortal being.Am I the only one to see how much this element affects a campaign and it's realism??? No other DM or Player has ever encounter this problem?
Elbethamore 02-09-06, 04:35 PM	I don't have much to add to this discussion, although it's very interesting... I just wanted to point you, for further reading, to the Complete Divine, which I believe has a few pages dedicated to death and the afterlife. Worth looking at if you're trying to get as much material as possible.
Escef 02-09-06, 04:40 PM	Just as in real life, most everyone believes they shall be among their diety's chosen and live eternally in bliss/tyrannical rule/whatever makes them happy. But it takes a truely exceptional/brave/stupid/desperate/whatever individual to actually fight to the death. Regardless of what an individual believes, pain and fear of death are pretty strong motivaters to the endevour of staying alive. Besides, all we do during life is lost to us once we die, or at least in D&D it is unless/until one gets raised/resurrected/whatevered somehow (barring any truely rare circumstances). So, why live at all when one can walk eternally with the gods? The best answer one can give is human nature. As for who/what made humans/humanoids/things/whatever thois way and for what purpose (if any), that is up to the DM.