Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kai_Augustus 01-14-07, 01:15 AM	Greetings all, I hope this is the right board... I have a quick question concerning a player in a campaign of mine who desires to take the Mystic Theurge prestige class. He's currently playing a level 8 Ranger who picked up the Sword of the Arcane Order feat (from the "Champions of Valor" sourcebook) at 3rd level, allowing him to cast 2nd level arcane spells as well as 2nd level divine spells upon reaching 8th level. Now that he's at level 9, he's saying that if he takes Mystic Theurge, he can gain two levels of spells in his Ranger class for each level of MT that he takes, as his Ranger now counts as both a divine and arcane spellcasting class and is therefore eligible for both the +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class and the +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class. While this definitely has the unmistakable ring of illegality to it, it's also quite a creative exposure of a loophole in the system if this can't be refuted, and I generally like to reward such creative thinking. I can only come up with an argument that I can't really find support for in the rules: that although Sword of the Arcane Order allows for a Ranger to cast arcane spells, the Ranger class itself is a divine spellcasting class, not an arcane one. Like I said, I can't really find any rules support for this. Any thoughts? P.S.: This quote is the Sword of the Arcane Order feat description straight out of the Champions of Valor book, just so anyone who cares to take a stab at it can see the exact wording: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells. You must have a minimum Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level to prepare it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your Int modifier (as if you were a wizard).
Tiarn 01-14-07, 01:21 AM	Assuming that the feat somehow changed him into an arcane casting class (which it does not, it allows him to prepare arcane spells) this still won't work. When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He has one class. So, assuming the ranger now counted as either arcane or divine (which it doesn't, see above) he could now choose to add either the arcane or the divine spell progression to ranger. He would still need another class to add to.
jaelis 01-14-07, 01:57 AM	Even if you allow that the ranger class has become both arcane and divine, it doesn't work. MT gives +1 CL to both your arcane class and divine classes. By granting a single level of ranger, it has accomplished this.
Kai_Augustus 01-14-07, 02:13 PM	And yet, Mystic Theurge does not say that the chosen arcane class and the chosen divine class have to be two different classes, which is the hump I can't seem to get over. Given, the rules would have no need to specify this because there most likely wasn't a foreseeable way to make a class both arcane and divine, but all the same, this oversight has the interesting ramification that I have the pleasure to be wrestling with at this time. Here are the points that this particular player uses to justify using Mystic Theurge to gain two levels of Ranger spells per MT level. Please feel free to refute them individually (while I have experience as a DM, I've never really been the "rules lawyer" type, even though I've tried... it's just not my forte) if it helps. -As earlier stated, Mystic Theurge does not say that the chosen arcane class and the chosen divine class have to be two different classes. It just says +1 CL for any one arcane spellcasting class and +1 CL for any one divine spellcasting class. This wording does not imply that the two classes must be mutually exclusive. -None of the core books actually and specifically define different "types" of spellcasting classes. As in, there is no "arcane spellcasting class" category, nor is there a "divine spellcasting class" category. Wizards and Sorcerers "cast arcane spells", but they are not specifically "arcane spellcasting classes". Similarly, though Clerics and Druids "cast divine spells", they are not specifically "divine spellcasting classes". As there is no specific definition as such, the definition that seems to make the most sense is that an "arcane spellcasting class" is a class that has the ability to cast arcane spells, and a "divine spellcasting class" is a class that has the ability to cast divine spells. As a Ranger with the "Sword of the Arcane Order" feat has the ability to do both, it therefore counts as both for the purposes of Mystic Theurge. -The "Sword of the Arcane Order" feat requires Rangers to use their Intelligence to determine the level of wizard spells they can know and their DC to resist. Rangers also need a spellbook -- just like a wizard -- to be able to prepare these spells. This is Wizard-like enough to argue that the spells prepared are arcane. -The feat in itself does not specify that the wizard spells become divine spells; in fact, as noted above, they are acquired and used in a manner exactly as a Wizard prepares/casts spells, further reinforcing their arcane nature. I've wrestled with this for a bit but cannot seem to find a way to refute it. I'm not exactly saying that I don't want it to happen; it's min/maxxing, even borderline munchkinish, but I try to be fair, and if I can't refute it after a bit of study and consultation, I let it in. I can't even say that he's using the wrong books, as the campaign is FR. I'll also quote the entire passage of the "Sword of the Arcane Order" feat, just in case something in there is useful. Benefit: You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells. You must have a minimum Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level to prepare it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your Int modifier (as if you were a wizard). These wizard spells can be taken either from your spellbook (if you have one) or from another character's spellbook (though in the latter case you must decipher the writing in the book and succeed on a Spellcraft check to prepare the spell, just as a wizard using a borrowed spellbook; see Wizard Spells and Borrowed spellbooks, page 178 of the Player's Handbook, for details. If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels. Special: Azuth has a paladin order called the Swords of the High One. Mystra has a paladin order called the Knights of the Mystic Fire and a closely allied group of rangers called the Order of the Shooting Star. Members of all three of these groups can select this feat as long as they are at least 4th level in their respective order's primary class.
Tempest Stormwind 01-14-07, 02:21 PM	Kai: Point to the line in Sword of the Arcane Order that says the ranger can now cast arcane spells. He can prepare wizard spells in his ranger slots, but the ranger still casts divine spells, not arcane spells. If the player's trying rules-lawyerese on you, counter with it.
jaelis 01-14-07, 04:36 PM	I don't understand the problem. -As earlier stated, Mystic Theurge does not say that the chosen arcane class and the chosen divine class have to be two different classes. It just says +1 CL for any one arcane spellcasting class and +1 CL for any one divine spellcasting class. This wording does not imply that the two classes must be mutually exclusive. So be totally generous, and assume the whole argument works. He takes a level of MT, he does indeed get +1 CL to his arcane class (= ranger) and +1 CL to his divine class (=ranger). But that means precisely that he gets one level of ranger. If he got two levels of ranger, then he would be getting +2 CL to "each" class, not +1 CL. Its like if I promise to give you a square thing and a blue thing, and then give you a blue square. I've fulfilled my promise to the letter... the one object you got satisfied both conditions.
Kai_Augustus 01-15-07, 11:17 PM	So be totally generous, and assume the whole argument works. He takes a level of MT, he does indeed get +1 CL to his arcane class (= ranger) and +1 CL to his divine class (=ranger). But that means precisely that he gets one level of ranger. If he got two levels of ranger, then he would be getting +2 CL to "each" class, not +1 CL. Its like if I promise to give you a square thing and a blue thing, and then give you a blue square. I've fulfilled my promise to the letter... the one object you got satisfied both conditions. After some thought, I can't really see my way to accepting this line of reasoning. The player gets two spellcasting levels, presumably one arcane and one divine, upon taking a level of MT. The way I perceive it is, the person has to receive two spellcasting levels, however this problem works itself out, as the two spellcasting levels are two separate transactions, unrelated. Thus, the "square thing and blue thing" analogy is imprecise, as I'm not receiving two things, but one thing; though I do understand the "blue square" is fulfilling both conditions, the Mystic Theurge is giving two spell levels, a condition not given in the above analogy. Kai: Point to the line in Sword of the Arcane Order that says the ranger can now cast arcane spells. He can prepare wizard spells in his ranger slots, but the ranger still casts divine spells, not arcane spells. If the player's trying rules-lawyerese on you, counter with it. I actually attempted to use a variant of this argument before I came to the boards. What it came down to then -- and comes down to now -- is, do the arcane spells he prepares become divine? There's nothing in the feat that suggests they do; in fact, quite the opposite. He has to memorize them as a wizard does with a spellbook, he must use is Intelligence modifier to find the level of spells he can cast and their DCs to resist, and he may stack his Ranger (and Paladin) caster levels with those of his Wizard class. I'm loathe to make a house rule blocking this player's desire, because at the end of the day, it IS a good idea, if it can't be refuted by a printed rule or set of rules. I am continuing to search in the core rule books for any hard-and-fast rule that unequivocally supports of resists this idea, but if anyone can think of or remember something that might do this or even point me in the right direction, that would be most appreciated. Thank you to all that have responded, and are interested in responding.
jaelis 01-15-07, 11:49 PM	Well, suit yourself. I think we've given you plenty of defensible arguments. If you feel like you need a black and white statement then you're unlikely to find one. You could try writing to customer service. Have to say, I'd probably spew coke out my nose if a player tried it with me!
The_sleeper1 01-16-07, 12:05 AM	So at level 8 he is casting level 4 cleric & wizard spells he then gets say 5 levels and is now casting as a 18th level wizard and cleric while the rest of his group is level 13? Personaly I would say that while you can cast spells of the arcane type in devine slots the descprtion does not percisely say that the character is now considered cleric/wizard, further since it does not say that he has changed caster types his type would not change.
Kai_Augustus 01-16-07, 03:08 AM	So at level 8 he is casting level 4 cleric & wizard spells he then gets say 5 levels and is now casting as a 18th level wizard and cleric while the rest of his group is level 13? Well, almost. At level 8 he is casting 2nd level Ranger and Wizard/Sorcerer spells, with a caster level of 4 (as a Ranger's "caster level" is 1/2 his class level, as per Players' Handbook pg 48). He'll then get, say, five levels of Mystic Theurge, and (as long as he took the "Sword of the Arcane Order" feat), he is casting the amount of spells a Ranger would have at 18th level (3 1st, 2 2nd, 3 3rd, and 1 4th, adding in any existing Wisdom bonuses), with a caster level of 13 (Mystic Theurge does not negate the stipulation of a Ranger's "caster level" being 1/2 his class level). The spells he'd have could be chosen from Ranger spell lists, or Wizard/Sorcerer spell lists. Personaly I would say that while you can cast spells of the arcane type in devine slots the descprtion does not percisely say that the character is now considered cleric/wizard, further since it does not say that he has changed caster types his type would not change. It's not so much about him being a Cleric (or Ranger, more accurately)/Wizard as much as this "caster type" thing you mentioned. There really is no "spellcaster type" identified in the core rule books (or even in Complete Arcane or Complete Divine -- I've expanded my research a bit) in reference to Arcane spellcasters or Divine spellcasters. Since I've already described the problem with this viewpoint, I'll just quote myself the rest of the way: -None of the core books actually and specifically define different "types" of spellcasting classes. As in, there is no "arcane spellcasting class" category, nor is there a "divine spellcasting class" category. Wizards and Sorcerers "cast arcane spells", but they are not specifically "arcane spellcasting classes". Similarly, though Clerics and Druids "cast divine spells", they are not specifically "divine spellcasting classes". As there is no specific definition as such, the definition that seems to make the most sense is that an "arcane spellcasting class" is a class that has the ability to cast arcane spells, and a "divine spellcasting class" is a class that has the ability to cast divine spells. As a Ranger with the "Sword of the Arcane Order" feat has the ability to do both, it therefore counts as both for the purposes of Mystic Theurge. I agree with Jaelis: it's doubtful that there is a black and white statement about this. I don't think the creators of the game system ever anticipated this problem arising or even recognizing this potential problem, because they didn't anticipate one class being able to prepare and cast both arcane and divine spells when they created the core rules. Leave it to the players to find the undefined loopholes! Any other comments are definitely welcome.
VrecknidjX 01-16-07, 10:07 AM	...but it does mean that you're the final arbiter of the rules within the game.DMG 3.5e, p. 6.Often a situation will arise that isn't explicitly covered by the rules...When you come upon a situation that the rules don't seem to cover, consider the following courses of action. Look to any similar situation that is covered in a rulebook. Try to extrapolate from what you see presented there and apply it to the current circumstance... If you come upon an apparent contradiction in the rules, consider these factors when adjudicating... Choose the rule that you like the best... DMG 3.5e, p. 6. Given that, here's the change I'd make: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously (the arcane and divine spellcasting classes must be different classes). There, that does it. Dave