Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KorkDizzle 06-22-07, 12:55 PM	Ok, I have been playing D&D for 16 years. I remember the glory days when everyone was on the same ground character-wise and there were no broken mechanics. (except psionics) In those days the TSR written adventures were AMAZING and there were always three things you could expect from your store bought adventure. 1. the inside of the cover sleeve had a keyed area map so you could easily run the adventure. 2. there were always encounters that put the fear of the gods in your PCs. I dont know how many of my characters died back then...lots 3. They always had a reasonable price point. I think the most expensive mod I ever bought was actually for 2nd ed. and it cost $15.00. One of my favorite Adventure settings after they were printed in 2nd edition was undermountain. There was a plethora of info released for undermountain in the years afterwards, and like 4 more reasonably priced mods. So, naturally, when I walked into my favorite hometown gamestore and saw undermountain 3.5 on the shelf I was stoked! Unfortunately once I opened the cover and browsed through the book I realised that it was simply another WotC let down:( .... $34.95 retail..... are you kidding me????? The book contains no detachable maps, and I think only one of them is even full page. The rest are crammed three to a page, and none of the maps are labeled with encounter sites. Speaking of encounter sites, where are the highly deadly undermountain rooms from the old days. I don't recall seeing any Beholder hives or Wyrm category dragons or even any impossible to avoid traps that lead to instant and irrevocable death.....:D . I feel as though WotC is trying to rip me off. If they are going to make new adventures, and price them at 350% of the cost that adventures used to be, then they better have some improvements on the old ones. I have been dissapointed in every WotC published aventure that I have purchased, and I doubt that I will be Buying anymore 3.5 Dungeouns and Dragons products that are not core supplements to the rules. The books that are coming out now seem as if the development team are trying to push them out as fast as possible and the content has really been lacking. Perhaps WotC needs to hire some of the old module writers to straighten them out as to what this game is about. WotC.... YOU GUYS NEED TO CALL GARY GYGAX, ITS HIS GAME ANYWAY!!!!!! Maybe then you could put out some product that is actually worth the price. I am really disappointed with the state of this game, and maybe some old school influence would help out. P.S. It probaly costs $.50 (probably less) to put in map inserts, why don't you try it out next time you release an adventure????? It would make it closer to actually worth the money.
lucifer777 06-22-07, 01:12 PM	I remember the glory days when everyone was on the same ground character-wise and there were no broken mechanics Well, you obviously don't remember the "glory days", because 2E was full of broken stuff. I never played 1E, but I'm sure it wasn't perfect either. YOU GUYS NEED TO CALL GARY GYGAX, ITS HIS GAME ANYWAY!!!!!! It stopped being his when he jumped ship after declaring how he loathed the average gamer. It's about as much his as the guy who invented the automobile claiming the latest car dealerships are his. And besides, I REALLY don't want Gygax working on any products after some of his more recent exploits, have you even SEEN Dragon Chess? *shudders*
jaelis 06-22-07, 01:26 PM	Considering that inflation alone would push something that cost $15 sixteen years ago to $28 now, I don't think the price is out of line. Doesn't mean you have to like the product, but did you really like everything TSR did?
Rian Lightblade 06-22-07, 01:32 PM	Well, you obviously don't remember the "glory days", because 2E was full of broken stuff. I never played 1E, but I'm sure it wasn't perfect either. It stopped being his when he jumped ship after declaring how he loathed the average gamer. It's about as much his as the guy who invented the automobile claiming the latest car dealerships are his. And besides, I REALLY don't want Gygax working on any products after some of his more recent exploits, have you even SEEN Dragon Chess? *shudders* Ditto!:thumbsup: Although I've never seen "Dragon Chess" I guess I should be afraid, very afraid.:twitch:
lucifer777 06-22-07, 01:49 PM	http://www.chessvariants.com/3d.dir/dragonchess.html There ya go.. Proof that Gary Gygax should be placed as far away from Wizards of the Coast as possible.
Rustmonster 06-22-07, 02:10 PM	Speaking of encounter sites, where are the highly deadly undermountain rooms from the old days. I don't recall seeing any Beholder hives or Wyrm category dragons or even any impossible to avoid traps that lead to instant and irrevocable death.....:D . Instant irrevocable death? That doesn't sound fun at all. I don't know what your idea of fun is, but it's not mine...
mearrin69 06-22-07, 02:34 PM	Yeah, there are certainly shortfalls in the latest WoTC products - but I can't see that they're any worse than things I saw in 1E and 2E. Then again, looks like we don't really see eye to eye on the nostalgia of those older editions. I myself never really cared for the 'ol Gygax overwritten, replete with save or die gotchas, adventure fare. He may (or not) be the 'father of D&D' but I reckon he's the reason so many adventurers carry 10' poles. M NB: Not all dads receive nice gifts on Fathers' Day. I suppose all of those TPKed parties out there would pitch in for a +5 vorpal poisoned necktie of strangulation for lord Xagyg's special day.
OravennasBrother 06-22-07, 02:38 PM	Learn the following; Purchase from WotC and you must be ready to feel like you spent your money on an inferior product. Once you live by that credo then you may stop wasting your money on substandard WotC fare.
High Octane 06-22-07, 02:46 PM	http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/rpgsaretooexpensive.html I remember 1st edition books. Thin as cardboard books with low quality paper and illustrations that looked like a 16 year old did them.
Solik 06-22-07, 02:50 PM	The philosophy of "players like to die with no ability to stop it" has departed D&D. Get used to it.
KorkDizzle 06-22-07, 02:55 PM	You people obviously did not play 1e..... the game is not about Unbeatable super heroes who challenge all obstacles and have no chance of dying, its about the very fear of dying and knowing that your time is limited. NOBODY DIES IN 3ED PUBLISHED ADVENTURES!!!!!!!!!! The system is simply designed for people from the Console RPG generation whose only goal in gaming is to min/max. ( If you never heard of min/maxing, you are definately newschool.:D ) These newer players are simply too attached to thier characters. I think I had a total of 1 character ever get to level 20 in 2e/1e, because all we did was spend our time dying ;) . It is my opinion that the characters in 3e are just a little overpowerd compared to thier counterparts in the earlier editions. That is beside the point however... My original post was about prices, and the content that you recieve for your money. I am not a cheapskate, I own hundreds of books and mods from earlier editions and at least 40 Hardback books for 3e..... I simply feel that the quality of the work put into the new publications has gone downhill. Inflation does affect prices, but not workmanship. The simple fact that the last two hardback adventures, Expidition to the demonweb Pits and Undermountain, haven't had detachable Dm maps is frustrating. That is a crucial piece of any Dungeon Master's Game Preps. I wouldn't even care if they sold a seperate map-pack/DM information set. I think that would be worth the money. they already sell map-packs, just put encounter maps and overhead dungeon maps in them and price it at $15 or $20. I would buy it. the color encounter grid maps would add to the visual experience of the game. That's what I'm talking about. I'm simply saying that they should build on the precidents that have been there for years. Maps are not an optional part of an adventure's set-up. (Not that I've never had to wing-it!!:) ) They should be provided for DM use. If you dont think that gary gygax has it in him to make wonderful D&D adventures, you obviously never played any of his 1e stuff. His adventures were well set up, the maps were intriging, and the combats were exciting and dangerous. His new non-D&D products do, indeed, suck, but he did create the game, whether you like it or not.:P If you have never played a Gary Gygax adventure you really should try 1e module g1-2-3 Against the Giants. It is a blast. My point is Gary Gygax understood the mechanics that make a good D&D adventure, and these new designers, while I enjoy thier modules, could learn a thing or two from him. I hope that no-one felt like I was being combative in my topic opener or this post. I'm not trying to make anyone mad or insult the writers of WotC product. I simply am explaining my opinion. :cool: P.S. the instant irrevocable death thing was a joke...... but idid have that happen to me in some 1e adventures. :twitch:
Olskool 06-22-07, 02:58 PM	I feel as though WotC is trying to rip me off. Stop buying stuff from them. Problem solved.
KorkDizzle 06-22-07, 03:03 PM	I can't stop buying D&D im like a crackhead, addicted for 16 years. its hard to put the stuff down. :weep:
Enderlaand 06-22-07, 03:23 PM	I'm currently playing a Dragonlance campaingn. We just all died. I think that totally negates your argument that nobody dies in modern campaigns. We're playing in a published adventure too. Also, we weren't happy that we died. It sucked. Point proven. Edit: You want better looking modules for less money? Good luck. In case you haven't noticed, the prices of just about everything have gone up by 350% in the last 15 years. D&D Modules aren't going to break the mold. Books are printed on paper. Paper is made from trees. Trees are cut down and milled by machines that run on gasoline. Gasoline is very, very expensive at the moment. This isn't going to change overnight. Also, timber companies pay huge amounts of money to remain 'green' and still do business.
Olskool 06-22-07, 03:24 PM	I can't stop buying D&D im like a crackhead, addicted for 16 years. its hard to put the stuff down. :weep: If you're looking for good adventures that are worth the money, you should check out Dungeon magazine. WOTC wouldn't just overcharge you for crap adventures without there being an affordable high quality alternative on the market. They care too much about their customers for that.
KorkDizzle 06-22-07, 03:32 PM	Lol Yeah I love Dungeon mag i used to subscribe to it. What published adventure did you die in? Was it because of difficulty or mistakes made in combat by your party.... My players dont make combat mistakes...:D
Einvaldurinn_mikli 06-22-07, 03:35 PM	My players dont make combat mistakes...:D Have you tried running them through the Age of Worms adventure path? That oughta be lethal enough for you, combat mistakes or no.
RobbyPants 06-22-07, 03:46 PM	Ok, I have been playing D&D for 16 years. I remember the glory days when everyone was on the same ground character-wise and there were no broken mechanics. From what I remember of 2E, each class required a different amount of XP to advance, to help make up for the fact that some were flat out better than others. Casters were even more powerful in comparision back then than now. At least now the fighter-types have some combat feats to let them do a little more than swing a sword round after round...
Olskool 06-22-07, 03:51 PM	Lol Yeah I love Dungeon mag i used to subscribe to it. What published adventure did you die in? I'm a DM who's currently running Age of Worms. Killed 4 PCs so far. This is the first time I've ever run published adventures, rather than just making my own. Age of Worms is way lethaler than my home made adventures.
Rustmonster 06-22-07, 04:04 PM	You people obviously did not play 1e..... the game is not about Unbeatable super heroes who challenge all obstacles and have no chance of dying, its about the very fear of dying and knowing that your time is limited. NOBODY DIES IN 3ED PUBLISHED ADVENTURES!!!!!!!!!! The system is simply designed for people from the Console RPG generation whose only goal in gaming is to min/max. ( If you never heard of min/maxing, you are definately newschool.:D ) These newer players are simply too attached to thier characters. I think I had a total of 1 character ever get to level 20 in 2e/1e, because all we did was spend our time dying ;) . It is my opinion that the characters in 3e are just a little overpowerd compared to thier counterparts in the earlier editions. Yes, I am playing a published adventure, and yes, someone has died. At level 2. It sucked. I WANT to get attatched to my character. They are an extention of me. My character is not min/maxed, and I can safely tell you that D&D is NOTHING like a console game. You don't do what the game wants, the game does what you want. And really, if your idea of fun is spending all your time dieing, you think strangly. Sure, it's fun if a character dies in a hilarious fashion or valiantly, but constantly dieing is not fun. Especially when there are unavoidable death traps for no other reason than the designer was lazy. Please stop acting as if you are "hardcore" or "old school" because you cling to an inferior product. It doesn't make you better than anyone. And PS, if you haven't noticed, it's the FuTuRe! Things are more expensive now! You can't get a Coke for a nickel anymore, because the price of everything has gone up! I'm suprised you didn't notice. Embrace the FuTuRe, old timer! It's a wonderful place!
High Octane 06-22-07, 04:06 PM	If you only face a CR equal to your level once a day, of COURSE you are almost never going to die. The explicitly say that an appropriate CR should consume 20-25% of their resources. Its basically balanced so that after 3-4 encounters of appropriae CR, your spells, hit points, daily class abilities, and other things have been pretty much depleted and you will have to rest otherwise you have a grave chance of someone dying, and a decent chance of a full party kill. I've played first edition. I've played a campaign where EVERY encounter was balanced so that the party had to throw most of their resources in order to beat it. And you know what would happen? We would spend most of our time recovering from the battles. We would sleep in the middle of dungeons over and over. Somehow no one in those evil cults missed the other guys we just killed and went looking for them. Now we don't do those things in this edition. Why? Because the dungeons are balanced so you go through the entire temple before you run out of resources (as long as you have decent luck). Because now there are mechanics for hearing a battle going on. Because now you roll for random encounters every hour you are in the dungeon. 10% chance per hour, you are pretty likely to cost yourself in resources since your sleep is interrupted when you battle a carrion crawler. Know what else happened in first edition? Death after death after death. We would spend entire sessions getting characters resurrected because I cared about mine. How often? Try just about every 4 sessions we had a character death. And the next session was often spent resurrecting them. So in order to keep the character I cared about we spent time, sold off our precious artifact loot, and begged the DM for the right to come back. And dont say it was because of the DM, he explained that in one of the first edition tables a 4-5 character crew appropriate battle for levels 1-2 was 3d6 orcs. Giving the benefit of 5 players and level 2 and average roll on 3d6 (low end 10) that means that each level 2 character had to take down 2 orcs. In 1st edition, an orc was the equivelent of a level 1 fighter. Hate to tell you, but I dont think that a battle like that wouldnt end in a few dead characters even if they did win. In response, I ended up not caring about my characters. Took a while but I no longer wanted to put my heart into a chracter who would end up dead over and over. Rough battles that characters may DIE in and the players have a good chance of FAILING should be special! Thats why a DM should have a boss monster or group of monsters thats 3 or even 4 CRs above them! But if every battle amounts to a dead character, character death becomes meaningless.
Olskool 06-22-07, 04:07 PM	Embrace the FuTuRe, old timer! It's a wonderful place! Wait... isn't this the PrEseNt?
Rustmonster 06-22-07, 04:13 PM	Wait... isn't this the PrEseNt? NO! Every new second is the FuTuRe! I'm time traveling RIGHT NOW! MWUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!:evillaugh
Reinforcements 06-22-07, 04:17 PM	I'm unclear on the point of the OP. What exactly are you comparing the prices of? Old modules to stuff like the Expedition series? Because I would hardly expect to pay $10 for a hardcover as big and pretty as Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Not to mention that anyone with internet access who pays full price for these books is a sucker anyway.
mike_beavers 06-22-07, 04:29 PM	To the poster; Ive been playing and running D&D in all its incarnations since 1975. Almost all the original D&D modules giant series, tomb of horrors etc were written as competition modules where the goal in them was to be a survivor so they were intended to be lethal. Characters still die in D&D games today but its actually easier to come back from the dead. All you have to do is want your character back. In the old days there was a percentage chance on the raise dead that you would not come back and for each time you died your con went down, reducing your chance of coming back. As for the higher cost, inflation is a big part. Putting the module out in hard bound is more expensive than the older cardboard covers. I agree about having the maps being able to be seperate from the book but it isnt that difficult with copiers or scanners to copy them out of the book.
IRememberCecil 06-22-07, 04:29 PM	Wait... isn't this the PrEseNt? Theoretically speaking? Time is best measured in moments. Each moment takes an infinitely short amount of time to pass. In other words, everything is frozen. Each moment would constitute the present time, and the moment that succeeds it is the future. We have no ability to perceive any one moment, instead cluttering all of them into large chunks of time, thus perceiving the present and future at (effectively) the same time. Simple enough?
Khatoblepas 06-22-07, 04:29 PM	Actually, the guy has a point about the map inserts. I like them - especially for nonstandard battles. Personally, I don't use maps for exploration, only battles - so just A4 sized maps (1" square) would work wonders for battles, if they were decorated properly. About the insta-death things, though, that sucks about previous editions. It's like the DM is on a constant power trip. I read through a few 2e modules, and.. oh my god. I do wanna run Tomb of Horrors with my players, though. :) But only if they wear, like, a Necklace of True Ressurrection (3 charges). I'm not THAT cruel :( Besides which, Tomb of Horrors is one of the few adventures I've seen that doesn't need the players to see a map. The encounters are generic "arena" type battles. I think people believe D&D 3.5 is overpowered because people survive more. And people actually have battles worth talking about "(MAN, that was an EPIC battle! He nearly had us!", rather than "Oh man, he killed us instantly no save, AGAIN"). How is this bad? And how is 3.5 overpowered compared to 2e? They're completely different systems o.O
Olskool 06-22-07, 04:37 PM	I think people believe D&D 3.5 is overpowered because people survive more. Have you really found that to be the case? I've noticed far more PC death in 3rd Ed compared to previous editions.
Olskool 06-22-07, 04:37 PM	Simple enough? No. Would you mind breaking it down for me some more?
IRememberCecil 06-22-07, 04:42 PM	No. Would you mind breaking it down for me some more? Umm... I don't know how much simpler I can make it. Wait! Pictures. A moment is a perfectly captured photograph. Everything looks completely frozen and there's no blurring. If you were then to take multiple photographs (I'm talking about around infinite) that were only slightly different, stacked them and then used them as a flip book, you'd see motion like we witness every day.
Olskool 06-22-07, 04:45 PM	Umm... I don't know how much simpler I can make it. Wait! Pictures. A moment is a perfectly captured photograph. Everything looks completely frozen and there's no blurring. If you were then to take multiple photographs (I'm talking about around infinite) that were only slightly different, stacked them and then used them as a flip book, you'd see motion like we witness every day. Still not getting you. Could you dumb it down a little more?
IRememberCecil 06-22-07, 04:49 PM	Still not getting you. Could you dumb it down a little more? When Neo dodges the bullets on the rooftop in The Matrix. Everything slows down to the point of freezing. That's a moment. I have a feeling you're yanking my chain, though.
Olskool 06-22-07, 04:50 PM	When Neo dodges the bullets on the rooftop in The Matrix. Everything slows down to the point of freezing. That's a moment. I have a feeling you're yanking my chain, though. Neo...?
getgoldcardsoul 06-22-07, 04:59 PM	Neo...?Yes. Short for neopolitan. The ice cream. Now do you understand? :D I know it's not spelled like that.
Olskool 06-22-07, 05:02 PM	Yes. Short for neopolitan. The ice cream. Now do you understand? :D I know it's not spelled like that. oooooohhh. Ok. Now I get it.
Khatoblepas 06-22-07, 06:11 PM	Have you really found that to be the case? I've noticed far more PC death in 3rd Ed compared to previous editions. Well, I looked at the type of adventures people were having in 2e and 3e, and it seems that 2e and back then was all about the characters in "Rocks fall, everybody dies." situations. Orb of Annihilations, Necklace of Strangulation, wierd artifacts that killed you, gods get annoyed, rocks fall everyone dies, etc, and all that. In 3e, people die because of sensible things. True, there are still holdovers from 2e, but the general mood of the game seems to move away from the characters being in mortal danger all the time. (How many times have you died from touching a strange artifact in 3e compared to 2e?) People die in 3e more sensibly. Or by druids. Either way. I'd like to play more 2e, though :)
Olskool 06-22-07, 06:17 PM	I'd like to play more 2e, though :) I hear you. A little simplicity goes a long way.
Jell_Moo 06-23-07, 01:04 AM	Oh hell, you want *more* G.Gygax style adventures??? Ok fine, I will now write you up a quick module in the Gygaxian style: DM - Your party is sitting around a comfortable Inn that has only a handful of other guests mulling about, probably due to the late hour and foul weather. Despite the bleak conditions, you are all feeling content after saving the town from the goblin horde, and receiving your reward from the mayor. While you sit around, speaking of the events of the day and waiting for the barmaid to serve you another round, you see a small grey kitten slink over to your table, and purr cutely. What do you do? Party Leader - Well, I guess I reach down and pet the cute little kitten. Maybe I'll feed it a bit of- DM - (Reading this word for word, directly from the module) HAHAHAHA!!!! The kitten explodes in a roar of cold fiery lightning acid that disrupts cells!!! You all die without a save!!! HAHAHAHA!!! You should see the looks on all of your faces!!! HAHAHAHA! It's priceless, cuz you are all so totally dead!!! Oh, and suddenly Mordenkainen shows up and (*bleeps*) each of your corpses. GAME OVER morons, game over. The Gygax motto: Everyone must have fun! And by everyone, I mean the DM. And by DM, I mean the vindictive jerk at the end of the table.
Taliasyn 06-23-07, 01:10 AM	If you're looking for good adventures that are worth the money, you should check out Dungeon magazine. WOTC wouldn't just overcharge you for crap adventures without there being an affordable high quality alternative on the market. They care too much about their customers for that. Except of course that they've refused to renew Paizo's license to publish Dungeon and Dragon and they end in september. (Not sure how sarcastic you were being there.)
hickmanj 06-23-07, 01:11 AM	The new "Expedition to Undermountain" is crap. Here are some quality titles (for comparison): Shackled City book based on Dungeon Magazine campaign Maure Castle (this alone shows the incredible lack of depth in 99.9% of WotC material - they want to take your money and offer crap in return) found in Dungeon Magazine with numerous updates. No wonder WotC didn't renew Paizo publishing's contract - they realized that Paizo was actually turning out TONS of great material for an ethical, decent cost and that, as people realized it, they would stop buying the DRECK that WotC turns out.... So what do they do? Turn out 3 adventures that use 3 namesakes (Demonweb, Undermountain, Greyhawk) knowing they can, like a used car salesman, take the money and run.... who cares if they crap all over 3 great concepts and their legacy.... But, for those who won't believe - please go buy Undermountain and see how pathetic it really is.... I'm not married to the idea that it had to be a remake - but it is replete with simple encounters that an 8th grader could create - there is ZERO creativity, exciting locales or true dungeon delving mystery. It is all basic encounters recreated with a minimum of effort and then slabbed together as a "campaign." Instead of WotC (which is faceless), the people like Eric Boyd, Christopher Lindsay, Sean Reynolds, Kim Mohan, Christopher Perkins should feel proud of themselves for having no ethics and making a fast buck at their fan-bases expense..... great job guys - why don't you go mug a couple of ten year olds for your follow-up .... Yeesh.
FloppyLlama 06-23-07, 01:26 AM	Umm... I don't know how much simpler I can make it. Wait! Pictures. A moment is a perfectly captured photograph. Everything looks completely frozen and there's no blurring. If you were then to take multiple photographs (I'm talking about around infinite) that were only slightly different, stacked them and then used them as a flip book, you'd see motion like we witness every day. Yeah, but what's the lowest common denominator? Either its in finite discrete steps, or there are an infinite number of them, in which case why does anything change? If you count all the real numbers between 1 and 2, how do you ever reach 2? And yes, this is related to D&D. I promise I will proceed to prove that moments are in fact discrete six-second packets, and I shall dub them "rounds".
Morwen 06-23-07, 01:28 AM	Except of course that they've refused to renew Paizo's license to publish Dungeon and Dragon and they end in september. (Not sure how sarcastic you were being there.) Paizo still exists even without Dungeon/Dragon, though. I'm personally pretty excited about the Pathfinder series, and I'll probably check out the GameMastery modules too (assuming my local store chooses to get them).
Lord_Madrigan 06-23-07, 02:26 AM	One of my favorite Adventure settings after they were printed in 2nd edition was undermountain. There was a plethora of info released for undermountain in the years afterwards, and like 4 more reasonably priced mods. So, naturally, when I walked into my favorite hometown gamestore and saw undermountain 3.5 on the shelf I was stoked! Unfortunately once I opened the cover and browsed through the book I realised that it was simply another WotC let down:( .... $34.95 retail..... are you kidding me????? The book contains no detachable maps, and I think only one of them is even full page. The rest are crammed three to a page, and none of the maps are labeled with encounter sites. Speaking of encounter sites, where are the highly deadly undermountain rooms from the old days. I don't recall seeing any Beholder hives or Wyrm category dragons or even any impossible to avoid traps that lead to instant and irrevocable death.....:D . I have to Admit This was a letdown I have the two box sets for undermountain and about the only big use I'll get out of the book is as a conversion guide to update the old box sets. WotC.... YOU GUYS NEED TO CALL GARY GYGAX, ITS HIS GAME ANYWAY!!!!!! We all owe a great deal to Gary for Creating D&D, however I don't think this is such a good Idea. P.S. It probaly costs $.50 (probably less) to put in map inserts, why don't you try it out next time you release an adventure????? It would make it closer to actually worth the money. You got My vote on that one. Hell Take some Time and make a GOOD box set sure It's a bit of a Dent to the wallet but this is how the Expidition series Should have Been done Map Inserts, campaign Booklet, and some well written and thoughout adventures and encounters for said campaign. WotC we're not asking for Much (or so I assume) Just a little Quality, we're willing to wait for the product to comeout on the market and shell out a few extra bucks to get a high class well made product. If it means that you have to put out fewer books out so you make a real winner I'm (relatively) sure that the returns will be well worth it. When word gets out that the product is a real gem the fans will usually start buying more of your stuff so long as you keep the level of quality up. So anyone else agree with my viewpoint. (I hope :bigeyes: )
OleOneEye 06-23-07, 03:45 AM	To the OP: First, printing costs have increased significantly more than inflation over the past few years. Even with that, purchasing a book is still cheaper than filling up my car with a tank of gas, taking the family out for dinner, and significantly less than my wife spends on a haircut. Your complaint about cost is entirely unfounded in economic reality. Second, if you want Gygaxian material, he has produced quite a bit of recent stuff through Troll Lord Games. As an aside, if you have been gaming for 16 years then you didn't enter the hobby until well after he left TSR. Third, characters in 3.5 edition are weaker than their 1st edition counterparts. Look at what level you need to be to defeat a fire giant in each edition, an old red dragon, a beholder, etc. Against virtually every monster, you must be a higher level in 3.5. Fourth, character death is a very common thing in my group. It averages about one death per session (10-12 hours). Frequency of death is far more determinate by DM/player gaming style than it is from the difference in rules editions.
Stormonu 06-23-07, 04:52 AM	I remember passing on 1E adventures because they were about $8 - probably equivilant to about $15 a module these days. If you want some deadly, good fun adventures, buy the Dungeon Crawl Classics from Goodman games. As for 3E modules, they ARE deadly; Ravenloft just wiped out my current party - something that I haven't seen occur back in 2E or 1E. Still, I hate the new EtCR - it feels like Lovecraft, not Dracula as well as feeling like a string of fights instead of a "haunted castle". And for the record, while most 1E modules have some interesting puzzles in them, they all have the touch of "screw the players" in them at some point. Gygax couldn't resist the magic item that screwed players over for winning and using it, the NPC that poses as a friend to assassinate the party or the trap you can't avoid and it will kill you because there's no way in hell you'll figure out its dangerous until you trigger it. People don't like this stuff, and rightly so. If you treat the players fairly, they stand a good chance of getting through the adventure alive.
Bob Loblaw 06-23-07, 08:48 AM	You people obviously did not play 1e..... the game is not about Unbeatable super heroes who challenge all obstacles and have no chance of dying, its about the very fear of dying and knowing that your time is limited. NOBODY DIES IN 3ED PUBLISHED ADVENTURES!!!!!!!!!! The system is simply designed for people from the Console RPG generation whose only goal in gaming is to min/max. ( If you never heard of min/maxing, you are definately newschool.:D ) These newer players are simply too attached to thier characters. I think I had a total of 1 character ever get to level 20 in 2e/1e, because all we did was spend our time dying ;) . It is my opinion that the characters in 3e are just a little overpowerd compared to thier counterparts in the earlier editions. I played 1st edition, and 2nd, and now 3rd/3.5. Personally, I think that 3.5 is superior in so many ways. As for the opinion that 3.3 characters are overpowered compared to their previous edition counterparts, this is actually a fact. WotC made that clear at the outset of 3rd edition. They said clearly that the new edition's characters are more powerful. The opponents also got more powerful though, so it's not as bad as it seems. Personally, I don't like spending my time creating a character just to watch him die. That's a complete waste of my time. I would much rather watch him succeed. It shows that I, as a player, actually know what I'm doing. If the point of the game is to have your character die, why waste your time playing the cleric, play the naked commoner instead and make it really fun. You can die before you hit the adventure! Now that's a good time for all. My original post was about prices, and the content that you recieve for your money. I am not a cheapskate, I own hundreds of books and mods from earlier editions and at least 40 Hardback books for 3e..... I simply feel that the quality of the work put into the new publications has gone downhill. Inflation does affect prices, but not workmanship. The simple fact that the last two hardback adventures, Expidition to the demonweb Pits and Undermountain, haven't had detachable Dm maps is frustrating. That is a crucial piece of any Dungeon Master's Game Preps. I wouldn't even care if they sold a seperate map-pack/DM information set. I think that would be worth the money. they already sell map-packs, just put encounter maps and overhead dungeon maps in them and price it at $15 or $20. I would buy it. the color encounter grid maps would add to the visual experience of the game. That's what I'm talking about. I'm simply saying that they should build on the precidents that have been there for years. Maps are not an optional part of an adventure's set-up. (Not that I've never had to wing-it!!:) ) They should be provided for DM use. When you say you want maps that are for the adventures, are you referring to these (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/ag) free ones? The ones that actually come from the adventure you just bought? Undermountain isn't there yet, but following the process so far, I don't see why it won't be there soon. If you dont think that gary gygax has it in him to make wonderful D&D adventures, you obviously never played any of his 1e stuff. His adventures were well set up, the maps were intriging, and the combats were exciting and dangerous. His new non-D&D products do, indeed, suck, but he did create the game, whether you like it or not.:P If you have never played a Gary Gygax adventure you really should try 1e module g1-2-3 Against the Giants. It is a blast. My point is Gary Gygax understood the mechanics that make a good D&D adventure, and these new designers, while I enjoy thier modules, could learn a thing or two from him. I played tons of 1st edition stuff. Gygax's most famous module (Tomb of Horrors) was designed to kill the characters. What grand times were had by all. Gygax did not create the game. The game is actually a corroboration between himself and Dave Arneson. I also find it strange that one of your favorite adventure series is designed to take you through several levels of play, yet you want the characters to die often. Having your characters die sounds like the exact opposite of having them progress through the levels. As for them learning a thing or two from Gygax, I would argue that they did learn quite a bit from him. The new designers learned that having your characters die with little to no chance of avoiding that death and even less chance of recovery is not fun for the very high majority of players. Don't think I'm saying I like the new modules. Personally I don't. I really don't like the hardcover book format. I find it a bit inconvenient due to it's thickness. If the spine allowed the book to at least lay flat, I think that it would be much better.
DoctorRomulus 06-23-07, 08:58 AM	People being attached to their characters in the new D&D may also have to do with it taking an hour plus to generate a halfway decent character whereas in the older editions it took about 10 minutes or ever less with experience. BTW, I too believe WoTC's D&D quality has dropped. But then again the books that are being put out are in need of editing by real editors and not these PC hacks they have now.
Escef 06-23-07, 09:16 AM	Ok, I have been playing D&D for 16 years. I've been playing longer than you, and I disagree with almost every sentiment you have expressed in this thread. Your opinion is just that: an opinion. Your opinion is not incontrovertible truth. Good day.
tankschmidt 06-23-07, 09:39 AM	Korkdizzle, if you are still following this thread, let me say that I agree with you pretty much on all counts. But you can't expect posters on the WotC boards to feel the same way as you. Most people here love 3x, and for many it's all they know. If you're looking to get more in touch with your Gygax side, I recommend his Castle Zagyg supplement for C&C or if you want to get further from D&D his Lejendary Adventures game (it's still his game). You can find both at www.trolllord.com. By the way, C&C also lets you run your old AD&D adventures with pretty much zero conversion. That might not be too helpful though if your group still remembers them. As far as modules go, I don't know if you've tried Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classics line. I've enjoyed them quite a bit and found them to be closer to the D&D I remember playing. You can get a couple of them for as cheap as $2, and the rest run from about $10 all the way to about $40. EDIT: I'd also like to chime in that most 2nd edition adventures were a pile of railroady junk. Most.
IRememberCecil 06-23-07, 12:22 PM	Yeah, but what's the lowest common denominator? Either its in finite discrete steps, or there are an infinite number of them, in which case why does anything change? If you count all the real numbers between 1 and 2, how do you ever reach 2? That, my friend, is exactly it. It never changes. At each particular moment, every object has an exact location and is therefore not moving. But movement must happen in the present. There can't be that there's no movement in the past, but movement in the past or future. So throughout time they all remain at rest. Therefore motion cannot happen. You hear that, Olskool? You can't even move. And yes, this is related to D&D. I promise I will proceed to prove that moments are in fact discrete six-second packets, and I shall dub them "rounds". Bring it on!
Ongorth 06-23-07, 12:36 PM	Except of course that they've refused to renew Paizo's license to publish Dungeon and Dragon and they end in september. (Not sure how sarcastic you were being there.) And Paizo can and will continue to produce under the OGL, like many other very good publishers do. What's your point?
Hugin 06-23-07, 01:23 PM	You people obviously did not play 1e..... OD&D actually. Up until about 2002. That is beside the point however... My original post was about prices, and the content that you recieve for your money. a $15.00 module in 1980 would cost you $40.16 in 2006. $35.00 means the cost has gone down while using higher-quality materials. I can't comment on 3E adventures because I've never played a published one, just converted old ones or my own. I do know that OD&D and AD&D adventures were definitely a hit or miss proposition. I doubt that has changed.
protonik 06-23-07, 01:38 PM	3. They always had a reasonable price point. I think the most expensive mod I ever bought was actually for 2nd ed. and it cost $15.00. One of my favorite Adventure settings after they were printed in 2nd edition was undermountain. There was a plethora of info released for undermountain in the years afterwards, and like 4 more reasonably priced mods. So, naturally, when I walked into my favorite hometown gamestore and saw undermountain 3.5 on the shelf I was stoked! Unfortunately once I opened the cover and browsed through the book I realised that it was simply another WotC let down:( .... $34.95 retail..... are you kidding me????? I paid more than 15 bucks for plenty of AD&D 2e adventures. TOEE was 20 and some of the later modules for Revised were 20 for standard modules (albeit a bit thicker). As far as Undermountain 3.5 you are getting the equivalent of an old boxed adventure and then some in some cases for only a little above the old price. I just can't see your arguement.
Leo 06-23-07, 03:45 PM	It's the player's fault also. People are complaining so much about balance and still wanting to make dragon psionic dinossaur riding zombies plus claiming that they still don't get enough skill points and how they hate everything and anything that I'm not suprised wotc marketing department is completely lost and simply doesn't know what he shoul do. It ends trying to please everybody, wich makes nobody geting really happy. On the other hand, I once had a DM who claimed raising a Cr encounter just because there were multiple monsters of the same type instead of just one was for sissies. The result was plenty of massacres from both sides(monsters and PC's) and a very paranoic party. Thankfully we had around 8 people. Unthankfully we were cycling characters pretty fast.
tuffn00gies 06-23-07, 08:04 PM	Ok, I have been playing D&D for 16 years. I remember the glory days when everyone was on the same ground character-wise and there were no broken mechanics. (except psionics) Wow. I've been playing for 24 years and I don't remember any of that.
CCS 06-23-07, 10:08 PM	I've played first edition. I've played a campaign where EVERY encounter was balanced so that the party had to throw most of their resources in order to beat it. And you know what would happen? ** You'd lose because of shoddy DMing. The same as you'll lose today if you encounter such a style. We would spend most of our time recovering from the battles. We would sleep in the middle of dungeons over and over. Somehow no one in those evil cults missed the other guys we just killed and went looking for them. ** You slept in the middle of dungeons and none of it's inhabitants managed to find you? I think you just confirmed my comment about shoddy DMing right there. ** Anyways, not counting things like trips to the underdark etc, WE never slept in dungeons save for in the most dire of circumstances. And with proper preperations in place. Wich naturally means that we'd NOT thrown ALL our resources at every encounter. Even then sometimes things went awry.... And it also was VERY dependant upon the dungeon we were in. Beyond that, just as today, the greatest factor was always the D?Ms style/ability/etc. And I never had anybody try such tactics when I DMed 1st ed.... Now we don't do those things in this edition. Why? ** Because you grew up, figured out how to play, and have a decent DM? That'd be my best guess.... Because the dungeons are balanced so you go through the entire temple before you run out of resources (as long as you have decent luck). ** Oh, looks like I was wrong. Your going to try and persuade me that it's all due to rules.... Because now there are mechanics for hearing a battle going on. ** Yeah, so? I'm sure they were there somewhere in 1st. But even if they weren't it wasn't a big deal. Why? Because we (DM's) don't need them. Never have, never will. Things operate in my dungeons how {I} say they do. And I can look at the map I've drawn & decide for myself what the monsters will do. But if you insist I roll a die? Fine pick one. I already know what the monsters going to do regardless of the #.....:) Because now you roll for random encounters every hour you are in the dungeon. 10% chance per hour, you are pretty likely to cost yourself in resources since your sleep is interrupted when you battle a carrion crawler. ** That might be what the BOOK says. But it's not how it works. Or at least not how it must work. Like monsters "hearing" things, I have all & final say over what wanders where. I had it in 1st. I had in in 2nd. And guess what? I still have it here in '07. And yes, we had plenty of wandering monster charts back then. Know what else happened in first edition? Death after death after death. We would spend entire sessions getting characters resurrected because I cared about mine. How often? Try just about every 4 sessions we had a character death. And the next session was often spent resurrecting them. ** Maybe you did. Many of us played alot of games without that level of dying though. Sure, sometimes a character died and had to be raised etc. And the same happens now. How often it occurs has quite abit to do with your DM.... So in order to keep the character I cared about we spent time, sold off our precious artifact loot, and begged the DM for the right to come back. ** So what? You'd do the same in one of my 3.5 games were you unfortunate enough to get yourself killed. BTW, that's one of the things masses of loot are for. Surely you don't think miricles come cheap do you? And dont say it was because of the DM, he explained that in one of the first edition tables a 4-5 character crew appropriate battle for levels 1-2 was 3d6 orcs. Giving the benefit of 5 players and level 2 and average roll on 3d6 (low end 10) that means that each level 2 character had to take down 2 orcs. In 1st edition, an orc was the equivelent of a level 1 fighter. ** I WILL say it. Regardless of the edition # the DM has always had incredible control over the style, tone, flavour, theme, and enjoyability of this game. So if you were running into 2 orcs per party member at lower levels your DM was likely doing his job poorly. Or maybe you weren't mature enough to know when running was the best option. Probably a bit of both. And the exact same thing will/can occur today. Plus it only gets worse as now I can customize those orcs just as fully as you tool up your PCs. So I could likely TPK you with 1/2 your party size. Hate to tell you, but I dont think that a battle like that wouldnt end in a few dead characters even if they did win. ** Same then as now....But if you were dumb enough to stand and fight 10 or 12+ orcs in the 1st place? You got what you deserved. In response, I ended up not caring about my characters. Took a while but I no longer wanted to put my heart into a chracter who would end up dead over and over. ** Again, so? If I killed you every week with "appropriate" 3.5 encounters you'd stop caring now as well. Care to point out the difference? Rough battles that characters may DIE in and the players have a good chance of FAILING should be special! Thats why a DM should have a boss monster or group of monsters thats 3 or even 4 CRs above them! ** The 1st part I agree with. The 2nd? Not so much. I use story appropriate bosses. If that happens to be +3 or 4 CRs, fine. If not, oh well (and maybe the players aren't suppossed to kill/defeat all of them just yet....). Some of my bosses have been higher, some within your range, some even LOWER! But if every battle amounts to a dead character, character death becomes meaningless. ** Agree again. As it does if there's plentifull ways/means to raise the fallen. That's why decent DMing skills are desirable.
Grod_The_Giant 06-23-07, 10:37 PM	You know what? You don't like the new adventures? Fine- don't buy from WotC. It's a free country. In fact- and this may come as a really revolutionary idea- you could even try <gasp> making your own adventures! Think about it- you could play exactly the kind of "turn the corner and randomly die" adventure you seem to like. In fact. amazing as it seems, I have *never* used a published adventure as a DM! My favorite part, though, was when you ranted about both there being "not enough character deaths" and "people getting attached to their characters." CLEARLY this isn't because their character's DON'T die every ten seconds.
Ringmereth 06-24-07, 01:22 AM	In fact- and this may come as a really revolutionary idea- you could even try <gasp> making your own adventures! Think about it- you could play exactly the kind of "turn the corner and randomly die" adventure you seem to like. In fact. amazing as it seems, I have *never* used a published adventure as a DM! Wow, it took three pages for someone to bring this up? Disappointing. I've tried a few WotC adventures (played an online City of the Spider Queen game for a few months before it crashed, for example) and, on the whole, haven't been very impressed. Building your own adventure path takes a little work, but it's far more rewarding for all involved. A good DM's homemade epic campaign arc can blow any published adventure out of the water, especially if it's set in a world the group knows and loves. As for lethality, I resent the all-too-common gripe of self-proclaimed old-school gamers who insist that those damn kids and their newfangled video games are ruining D&D. Yes, 3.X is (by popular consensus, it seems) less lethal than some of it's earlier incarnations. To me, this seems much closer to the stories D&D came from. Do all the heroes die all the time in the stories of Tolkien? No. Death is noteworthy. A character death is a tragic loss to be mourned, or a heroic end to be remembered. And our dear old game is, after all, about telling stories. A system that goes back to that idea? I'll take it. Edit: oh, and seriously, don't complain about the price of D&D publications. A few hundred dollars can buy a gaming group all the books and accessories (a couple PHBs, a DMG, an MM, a couple splatbooks, a campaign setting, a few dozen minis, and some dice) it needs to have fun for hundreds or thousands of hours over the course of years. For example: a group of six spends $400 between them on various rulebooks, minis, and other gaming stuff. If they run one session per week lasting four hours and, at the year's end, immediately falls apart and throws all their gaming stuff away, has spent $1.92 collectively for each hour of entertainment, or a whopping 32 cents apiece. If you can think of a better return on 32 cents of your entertainment dollar, let me know.
Optimized_Commoner 06-24-07, 01:33 AM	Wait... isn't this the PrEseNt? No, by the time we read your post it's the PaSt...
FloppyLlama 06-24-07, 02:30 AM	You hear that, Olskool? You can't even move. Really useful for stalling impending death by ranged attack. (http://dresdencodak.com/cartoons/dc_031.htm) It'll irritate the heck out of your DM though.
ElberethSilverleaf 06-24-07, 03:47 AM	I've played since 1st edition and i even had the original beige/brown boxed set from ther 70's. I can't help but roll my eyes and groan when I hear some fanboy wax poetic about how it took him a "whole year" for his 1/2 drow 1/2 dragon 20th lvl warlock to become a 10th lvl Alienist.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Red Dragon 06-24-07, 06:59 AM	Except, you know, half-dragon drow would suck so badly nobody but nobody would bother with it, warlocks are underpowered, and they can't take Alienist. Just so ya know. I play 2e and 3e, and, really? I prefer 3e, but will play either. They're almost totally different games, and I expect different things from them. I also play a warlock, so I'm not blasting them either. Years of game time for a level? Sounds more like 2e to me; it is/was a lot longer-term of a game.
Rulebook 06-27-07, 08:38 AM	oh my god leveling in 2e SUCKED. "Okay, i need 5 million exp to get to the next level... that dragon just gave me... YOU'RE KIDDING ME ONLY 10,000 EXP!?!?!?" that kind of stuff. and people who dont think PC's die in published materials havent played the big dungeon crawl type games (Rappan Athuk, Worlds Largest Dungeon etc) i have yet to have a party survive one of those. ESPECIALLY the worlds largest dungeon... and characters in 2e could get signifigantly more powerful than guys in 3e could. just the Ogre-Mage samurai my friend ran is proof of that. (and on the same note, my 29th level Necromancer). Vagueness in the rules combined with clunky mechanics meant some serious abuse.
Holy_Beholder 06-27-07, 09:25 AM	Ok fine, I will now write you up a quick module in the Gygaxian style: DM - Your party is sitting around a comfortable Inn that has only a handful of other guests mulling about, probably due to the late hour and foul weather. Despite the bleak conditions, you are all feeling content after saving the town from the goblin horde, and receiving your reward from the mayor. While you sit around, speaking of the events of the day and waiting for the barmaid to serve you another round, you see a small grey kitten slink over to your table, and purr cutely. What do you do? Party Leader - Well, I guess I reach down and pet the cute little kitten. Maybe I'll feed it a bit of- DM - (Reading this word for word, directly from the module) HAHAHAHA!!!! The kitten explodes in a roar of cold fiery lightning acid that disrupts cells!!! You all die without a save!!! HAHAHAHA!!! You should see the looks on all of your faces!!! HAHAHAHA! It's priceless, cuz you are all so totally dead!!! Oh, and suddenly Mordenkainen shows up and (*bleeps*) each of your corpses. GAME OVER morons, game over. The Gygax motto: Everyone must have fun! And by everyone, I mean the DM. And by DM, I mean the vindictive jerk at the end of the table. Sigged
tankschmidt 06-27-07, 09:28 AM	oh my god leveling in 2e SUCKED. "Okay, i need 5 million exp to get to the next level... that dragon just gave me... YOU'RE KIDDING ME ONLY 10,000 EXP!?!?!?" that kind of stuff. That's a question of patience. Some of us prefer that it take significantly longer to level than one or two sessions, as is the case with 3x. For us, when something takes longer the end result is sweeter. It's a more common view than you might think. and people who dont think PC's die in published materials havent played the big dungeon crawl type games (Rappan Athuk, Worlds Largest Dungeon etc) i have yet to have a party survive one of those. ESPECIALLY the worlds largest dungeon... True, but WLD and Rappan Athuk (unloaded or reloaded) are not TSR/WoTC-published dungeons. WLD in particular is notorious for not warning PC's when they stray into an area that is too difficult for them to handle. Section J is one of those, if I remember correctly. and characters in 2e could get signifigantly more powerful than guys in 3e could. just the Ogre-Mage samurai my friend ran is proof of that. (and on the same note, my 29th level Necromancer). Vagueness in the rules combined with clunky mechanics meant some serious abuse. When I DMed Rules Cyclopedia D&D, 1st edition AD&D, and 2nd edition AD&D, I never had a problem with player characters getting too powerful. Nowadays, I feel like 3x breaks down around levels 9-12, and it's difficult to challenge players without completely wiping them out. As hit points become less of an issue at higher levels, the players don't have so much of a buffer if things don't go their way.
Optimized_Commoner 06-27-07, 10:19 AM	That's a question of patience. Some of us prefer that it take significantly longer to level than one or two sessions, as is the case with 3x. For us, when something takes longer the end result is sweeter. It's a more common view than you might think. I have to side with this view. I actually prefer the longer levelling requirement myself. I'd rather be able to do more than 20 (longish) adventures before the character graduates to epic. When I DMed Rules Cyclopedia D&D, 1st edition AD&D, and 2nd edition AD&D, I never had a problem with player characters getting too powerful. I somewhat agree. Firstly, it needs to be said that "too powerful" is a subjective term. I've happily run epic adventures for 3.X characters which worked out just fine. However in 3.X there's definitely a different balance of power. Characters are both more powerful but also strangely less powerful in some ways. For example, a first level character in 3.X can do almost nothing with their skills without a lucky roll however a first level character in 2.0 could use their NWPs as well as any level 20 character, they just didn't have as many. And as a side-note, man I loved Rules Cyclopedia D&D. It still has a place of honour on my gaming shelf, even though chances are I'll never get to run it again. It was probably my favourite D&D system.
RequiemOfReason 06-27-07, 11:01 AM	Yeah, but what's the lowest common denominator? Either its in finite discrete steps, or there are an infinite number of them, in which case why does anything change? If you count all the real numbers between 1 and 2, how do you ever reach 2? And yes, this is related to D&D. I promise I will proceed to prove that moments are in fact discrete six-second packets, and I shall dub them "rounds". http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=777565 Lovely explanation for all that. Warning: Lots of math. Anyway, I personally find it much easier to get attached to a character with a life expectancy longer than twelve seconds.
Light_Colonel 06-27-07, 11:29 AM	Let me see... I have played Original D&D (In the boxes), I played 1st Edition AD&D, I played 2nd Edition AD&D and I have played 3.X D&D. Of all of them, I prefer 3.whatever. Each edition has gotten progressively better. 1e had the incredibly annoying charts to look up your to-hit rolls. 2e had thac0 which was an improvement and then 3e got rid of the whole idiotic concept of negative AC = good. I also like the fact that in 3e+ you are always trying to roll high. It just makes for ease of gameplay and makes teaching new people to play a lot easier. ("Ok, here is a d20, when the DM says 'roll that and add whatever' just roll high. Higher is better.") vs. ("Here is a d20, when you roll to hit, roll high and add this obscure number and consult the holy chart of hackicus. If the moon is in alignment use this chart instead. When you roll a saving throw, consult this chart. When you make a skill or ability check, roll low.") 3e removed most of the utter stupidity of all previous editions of D&D, things like: a 0th level Blacksmith is a better blacksmith than your character (probably) and could easily be the best blacksmith in the entire world. He has worked the forge for many years and is quite strong and hearty. He has 4 hit points. 18/XX Strength. Lamest idea ever. The way stats were used by characters in general. Being able to play a half-orc or any other race you want, without having 500 different kinds of penalties. (Ok, well you get -10 to everything, a 50% xp penalty and you are not allowed in town and oh yeah, roll 10 times on this chart.) Seriously, did you ever look at the Complete Book of Humanoids? Or any of the Complete Books? That stuff was so broken it makes the "overpowered" splat books of 3e look tame. No more arbitrary limitations on race/class. "Sorry Mr. Dwarf. I know your race supposedly made a billion magic items, but you can't be a wizard" Being able to _actually_ multi-class. I despised 1e/2es system of multi and dual classing. Rolling initiative in 1e and 2e was like watching a train-wreck in slow motion. Anyway.. that is just a few points, I am sure I am forgetting about 1000 other things that make 3e way better than older editions.
Solik 06-27-07, 12:34 PM	Actually, I do prefer the old method of craftsmanship advancing. I don't mean I dislike 3.x's skill system, but I find it ridiculous that becoming a truly master craftsman requires attaining massive amounts of experience (which is usually handed out by overcoming challenges that involve danger) and suddenly gaining immunity to a variety of spells and effects for no real reason. And becoming extremely resistant to your average level 1 mugger's coup-de-grace attack. But then, I hate hit dice and advancing hit points in general, so maybe that's just me.
Phrennzy 06-27-07, 01:58 PM	I have been gaming for 600 trillion years. I played D&D with the dinosaurs (powergamers all, the lot of them). I rolled dice with Jesus Christ (good roleplayer, always played dwarves). I DMed for the Maquis deSade (liked playing Clerics). I started a campaign with Amelia Earhart, but never finished it. In all that time I have spent over a billion dollars in gaming supplies. I owned the Monster Manual when it was written on papyrus and rolled up in an ivory tube capped with gold (Egyptian edition). My dice have been made of teeth, knucklebones, marble, gold, and, in the early editions - paper chits. Considering the years of enjoyment I have gotten out of the material I have purchased, the overall cost has been negligible, except for that time I had to replace all my books and figures when they went down with the Titanic. Prices go up, but the quality of the paper is better. I didn't like the splatbooks for 2nd ed. I don't enjoy the splatbooks for 3.5 either, but that's because Moses really instilled the idea of Core Only when he went on his rant about only needing a few core rules.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 06-27-07, 02:08 PM	:rofl: Wow, that won pretty hard Phrennzy.
RobbyPants 06-27-07, 04:21 PM	I have been gaming for 600 trillion years. <snip> Prices go up, but the quality of the paper is better. I didn't like the splatbooks for 2nd ed. I don't enjoy the splatbooks for 3.5 either, but that's because Moses really instilled the idea of Core Only when he went on his rant about only needing a few core rules. Awesome! Did you play before 1st edition? 0.5 edition?
Rogue Shadows 06-27-07, 04:35 PM	I have been gaming for 600 trillion years. I played D&D with the dinosaurs (powergamers all, the lot of them). I rolled dice with Jesus Christ (good roleplayer, always played dwarves). I DMed for the Maquis deSade (liked playing Clerics). I started a campaign with Amelia Earhart, but never finished it. In all that time I have spent over a billion dollars in gaming supplies. I owned the Monster Manual when it was written on papyrus and rolled up in an ivory tube capped with gold (Egyptian edition). My dice have been made of teeth, knucklebones, marble, gold, and, in the early editions - paper chits. Considering the years of enjoyment I have gotten out of the material I have purchased, the overall cost has been negligible, except for that time I had to replace all my books and figures when they went down with the Titanic. Prices go up, but the quality of the paper is better. I didn't like the splatbooks for 2nd ed. I don't enjoy the splatbooks for 3.5 either, but that's because Moses really instilled the idea of Core Only when he went on his rant about only needing a few core rules. You don't get a cookie. You get an entire damn tray. :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie: :cookie:
Cryforge 06-27-07, 04:51 PM	Wait. The OP's point is that D&D adventures suck nowadays because nobody dies? Hmm... Okay...whatever.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-27-07, 05:52 PM	You people obviously did not play 1e Nor did you, since it was over well over 16 years ago.
Downtym 06-27-07, 06:18 PM	Ok, I have been playing D&D for 16 years. I remember the glory days when everyone was on the same ground character-wise and there were no broken mechanics. (except psionics) In those days the TSR written adventures were AMAZING and there were always three things you could expect from your store bought adventure. I smell a troll.
MagicMouth 06-27-07, 07:13 PM	I havenīt played in any 2ed games, and while it could perhaps be interesting to try it out sometime, I donīt feel like I miss out on anything. As far as I can tell, 3ed gives more options (no strange class restrictions, for example), which I definitely prefer. I am perfectly fine with playing a Core only character - who already has a lot of alternatives and combinations to choose from - but it is also nice to be able to whip out a Half-Dragon Warforged Psychic Warrior/Swordsage if Iīd like to. The closest Iīve come to playing 2ed is through various CRPGs. In one of these, I started out with a group of 1st level characters in a tavern. Got a quest to clear out some bugs from the basement. Result: Attacks beetle *miss* Attacks beetle *miss* Attacks beetle *miss* Attacks beetle *miss* Attacks beetle *miss* Attacks beetle *miss* Attacks beetle *miss* Attacks beetle *miss* Attacks beetle *miss* Attacks beetle *miss* Beetle attacks Fighter *hits* *Fighter has been slain* :uh-huh: Been a little suspicious after going through such incidents...
KillerVole 06-27-07, 09:10 PM	On the beetle vs. fighter thing, I had one of those in 3rd edition. A player was trying to demonstrate why point buy sucked, by ditching all combat stats for Cha and Wis, as a fighter. He was slain by the terrifying Tiny Monstrous Scorpion... As to the OP's price complaint, it's not that big a deal. We're certainly getting more for our money than with the floppy 3e splatbooks. Those cost about $20, and they were only about 100 pages long. Also, people still die in 3.5. It just depends on DMing style. My style is to run less dangerous encounters, and encourage more character development. I have played under a "Killer DM" whose traps and battles would have made Gygax proud. (We got TPKed at level 3 by a dozen kobolds, blown up by doors, stuck in walls, and sent through sewers inexplicably filled with whirling blades of doom). Deaths are really just a matter of style.
IRememberCecil 06-27-07, 09:28 PM	I smell a troll. We need someone experienced to deal with this. Get John McClane on the case! Stat!
Tyaris 06-27-07, 09:58 PM	Theoretically speaking? Time is best measured in moments. Each moment takes an infinitely short amount of time to pass. In other words, everything is frozen. Each moment would constitute the present time, and the moment that succeeds it is the future. We have no ability to perceive any one moment, instead cluttering all of them into large chunks of time, thus perceiving the present and future at (effectively) the same time. Simple enough? *Dons Vader voice* Impressive...most impressive.
Rustmonster 06-27-07, 10:08 PM	On the beetle vs. fighter thing, I had one of those in 3rd edition. A player was trying to demonstrate why point buy sucked, by ditching all combat stats for Cha and Wis, as a fighter. He was slain by the terrifying Tiny Monstrous Scorpion... I'm sorry, this just makes me laugh. That's like saying roll stats suck if I get an 18, 18, 16, 10, 8, 8 as a fighter, and put them like this: str 8 dex 10 con 8 int 16 wis 18 cha 18
The Livewire 06-27-07, 10:29 PM	I And as a side-note, man I loved Rules Cyclopedia D&D. It still has a place of honour on my gaming shelf, even though chances are I'll never get to run it again. It was probably my favourite D&D system. I agree whole heartedly with that. Remember the Errata for the Rules Cyclopedia? Oh, wait, it didn't have any!
Hugin 06-27-07, 10:56 PM	I agree whole heartedly with that. Remember the Errata for the Rules Cyclopedia? Oh, wait, it didn't have any! Played that for a long time. Loved it. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
navar100 06-27-07, 11:06 PM	You people obviously did not play 1e..... the game is not about Unbeatable super heroes who challenge all obstacles and have no chance of dying, its about the very fear of dying and knowing that your time is limited. NOBODY DIES IN 3ED PUBLISHED ADVENTURES!!!!!!!!!! The system is simply designed for people from the Console RPG generation whose only goal in gaming is to min/max. ( If you never heard of min/maxing, you are definately newschool.:D ) These newer players are simply too attached to thier characters. I think I had a total of 1 character ever get to level 20 in 2e/1e, because all we did was spend our time dying ;) . It is my opinion that the characters in 3e are just a little overpowerd compared to thier counterparts in the earlier editions. The game is about a group of friends/potential new friends hanging out together having fun through the process of pretending to be characters in a (usually) magical fantasy setting. Said characters can be awesome warriors, mystical spellcasters, holy terrors, sneaky gadgeteers, and combinations there of. One person sets the setting for the others to have their characters react to it as well as initiate action. That is beside the point however... The rest becomes irrelevant, for me at least.
navar100 06-27-07, 11:08 PM	Another solution: Just create your own adventures with your own imagination.
KillerVole 06-27-07, 11:16 PM	I'm sorry, this just makes me laugh. That's like saying roll stats suck if I get an 18, 18, 16, 10, 8, 8 as a fighter, and put them like this: str 8 dex 10 con 8 int 16 wis 18 cha 18 Oh, I agree. When he showed up with it, I asked if he was sure he wanted to play it. He said yes. I'm a big fan of letting players dig their own graves. His next character was point buy too, and he decided to actually try.
Archangel62 06-27-07, 11:20 PM	I have been gaming for 600 trillion years. I played D&D with the dinosaurs (powergamers all, the lot of them). I rolled dice with Jesus Christ (good roleplayer, always played dwarves). I DMed for the Maquis deSade (liked playing Clerics). I started a campaign with Amelia Earhart, but never finished it. Jesus saves...the rest of you take damage.
ArcTan 06-27-07, 11:24 PM	When Neo dodges the bullets on the rooftop in The Matrix. Everything slows down to the point of freezing. That's a moment. I have a feeling you're yanking my chain, though. Truly instantaneous "moments" are best treated as a manner of speaking rather than a real thing, though. Trying to analyze each moment as though it were a separate entity leads to Zeno's paradoxes. (Specifically, the Fletcher's Paradox.)
Cryforge 06-27-07, 11:31 PM	Nor did you, since it was over well over 16 years ago. I didn't even notice that. That would have been 1991! That's not anywhere close to 1st edition! You can't be nostalgic for Gygax modules if you started in '91. I was born in '91 and I know this.
Olskool 06-28-07, 07:11 AM	I didn't even notice that. That would have been 1991! That's not anywhere close to 1st edition! You can't be nostalgic for Gygax modules if you started in '91. I was born in '91 and I know this. I played 1E till 2oo2. I started playing in 1993. Wait it's impossible for me to have played 1E! It's also impossible for me to have ever used a lightbulb, those were invented in the 18th century.That's not anywhere close to today's date. I must be lying. It's impossible for me to have played 1E or used a lightbulb. Also, the automobile was invented over 100 years ago, so it's impossible for me to have ever been in one of them by your logic. Whatever 1E rules, and I'll still play it even if it means defying the laws of physics.
mussor 06-28-07, 07:55 AM	http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/rpgsaretooexpensive.html I remember 1st edition books. Thin as cardboard books with low quality paper and illustrations that looked like a 16 year old did them. In some cases, they were probably drawn by 16-year olds too.
aotrscommander 06-28-07, 08:11 AM	I have been gaming for 600 trillion years. *snip* :rofl: Wow, that won pretty hard Phrennzy. I concur. I hereby award you an Awesome point.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-28-07, 11:06 AM	I played 1E till 2oo2. I started playing in 1993. Wait it's impossible for me to have played 1E! It's also impossible for me to have ever used a lightbulb, those were invented in the 18th century.That's not anywhere close to today's date. I must be lying. It's impossible for me to have played 1E or used a lightbulb. Also, the automobile was invented over 100 years ago, so it's impossible for me to have ever been in one of them by your logic. Whatever 1E rules, and I'll still play it even if it means defying the laws of physics. Er, if you note the person says that they buy and play whatever edition is released. That way, he wouldn't have played 1e.
IRememberCecil 06-28-07, 11:39 AM	Truly instantaneous "moments" are best treated as a manner of speaking rather than a real thing, though. Trying to analyze each moment as though it were a separate entity leads to Zeno's paradoxes. (Specifically, the Fletcher's Paradox.) So you missed the post where I actually made the case for the sole purpose of confusing a certain poster in this thread? I concur. I hereby award you an Awesome point. You know you shouldn't wave those things (the points) around in front of me.
Rogue Shadows 06-28-07, 12:25 PM	1st Edition sucks. It's the same basic principle as a Model-T sucking. Oh, there's nostalgia. A Model-T looks all Victorian and cool. And you get cool points for owning one. You even get cool points for driving around in one, especially if you're wearing period-accurate costume. But would you want a Model-T to be your primary method of transportation? How does 45 mph top speed sound? 13 to 21 miles per gallon? Yeah, didn't think so. Same basic principle concerning 1st Edition. It was great in it's day. Playing it today is fun and cool. But 3rd Edition is better. It runs smother. There are less MAJOR problems. More options. better options. A distinct lack of Gygaxian DMing, or at least a lack of encouraging Gygaxian DMing. And that's that.
Ranger REG 06-29-07, 02:38 AM	Ok, I have been playing D&D for 16 years. I remember the glory days when everyone was on the same ground character-wise and there were no broken mechanics. (except psionics) In those days the TSR written adventures were AMAZING and there were always three things you could expect from your store bought adventure. 1. the inside of the cover sleeve had a keyed area map so you could easily run the adventure. 2. there were always encounters that put the fear of the gods in your PCs. I dont know how many of my characters died back then...lots 3. They always had a reasonable price point. I think the most expensive mod I ever bought was actually for 2nd ed. and it cost $15.00. One of my favorite Adventure settings after they were printed in 2nd edition was undermountain. There was a plethora of info released for undermountain in the years afterwards, and like 4 more reasonably priced mods. So, naturally, when I walked into my favorite hometown gamestore and saw undermountain 3.5 on the shelf I was stoked! Unfortunately once I opened the cover and browsed through the book I realised that it was simply another WotC let down:( .... $34.95 retail..... are you kidding me????? The book contains no detachable maps, and I think only one of them is even full page. The rest are crammed three to a page, and none of the maps are labeled with encounter sites. Speaking of encounter sites, where are the highly deadly undermountain rooms from the old days. I don't recall seeing any Beholder hives or Wyrm category dragons or even any impossible to avoid traps that lead to instant and irrevocable death.....:D . I feel as though WotC is trying to rip me off. If they are going to make new adventures, and price them at 350% of the cost that adventures used to be, then they better have some improvements on the old ones. I have been dissapointed in every WotC published aventure that I have purchased, and I doubt that I will be Buying anymore 3.5 Dungeouns and Dragons products that are not core supplements to the rules. The books that are coming out now seem as if the development team are trying to push them out as fast as possible and the content has really been lacking. Perhaps WotC needs to hire some of the old module writers to straighten them out as to what this game is about. WotC.... YOU GUYS NEED TO CALL GARY GYGAX, ITS HIS GAME ANYWAY!!!!!! Maybe then you could put out some product that is actually worth the price. I am really disappointed with the state of this game, and maybe some old school influence would help out. P.S. It probaly costs $.50 (probably less) to put in map inserts, why don't you try it out next time you release an adventure????? It would make it closer to actually worth the money. Dude, if you want new adventures, then stay away from the Expedition series. :rolleye2: If you're much more open-minded (and not so stuck on WotC), I suggest you check out non-WotC third-party d20 adventure modules. Goodman Games put out their Dungeon Crawl Classic series ... and that still going on. AEG released many $3.00 adventure modules in the early part of the 3e era.
Olskool 06-29-07, 07:20 AM	. A distinct lack of Gygaxian DMing, or at least a lack of encouraging Gygaxian DMing. And that's that. I keep seeing a lotof Gygax bashing on these boards. Don't all the noobs realize that if it wasn't for him, they'd all be doing... um... they'd all be doing whatever it was nerds did before D&D existed. Probably stamp collecting or model trains or something. I mean, you play D&D. You clearly like doing so. Why bash the guy who made it possible?
Bob Loblaw 06-29-07, 08:24 AM	I keep seeing a lotof Gygax bashing on these boards. Don't all the noobs realize that if it wasn't for him, they'd all be doing... um... they'd all be doing whatever it was nerds did before D&D existed. Probably stamp collecting or model trains or something. I mean, you play D&D. You clearly like doing so. Why bash the guy who made it possible? Most of the people bashing Gygax aren't new to gaming. Besides, just because he was one of the creators doesn't mean that his DMing methods are to be respected. Personally, I find that bashing him (or anyone else for that matter) is a waste of time. I don't have to like everything he does. I also don't have to attack his style of DMing, especially when he's not here to defend himself.
Olskool 06-29-07, 08:30 AM	Most of the people bashing Gygax aren't new to gaming. Besides, just because he was one of the creators doesn't mean that his DMing methods are to be respected. Personally, I find that bashing him (or anyone else for that matter) is a waste of time. I don't have to like everything he does. I also don't have to attack his style of DMing, especially when he's not here to defend himself. I suppose you're right. It just bugs when D&D fans rip on Gygax, just like it bugs me when comic fans rip on Stan Lee. Just because their style isn't the current fad is no reason to disrespect a pioneer. It strikes me as very " biting the hand that feeds you"-ish.
Escef 06-29-07, 10:26 AM	I suppose you're right. It just bugs when D&D fans rip on Gygax, just like it bugs me when comic fans rip on Stan Lee. Just because their style isn't the current fad is no reason to disrespect a pioneer. It strikes me as very " biting the hand that feeds you"-ish. I've exchanged a couple emails with Mr. Gygax. Between that and his articles I get the impression that while he believes the bad guys are going to do their damndest to kill the PCs (and he plots encounters and roleplays the encounters as such), he also has a bit of a code of honor for himself. If players get clever or lucky he does not try to punish them for "beating" the encounter. He'll take as much joy in the party's victory as they do. He isn't the type to gleefully laugh at his players when they get shafted by bad rolls or poor decisions. But he isn't going to pull punches just because he feels bad about their situation. Just the impression I've gotten.
Prof. Pacali 06-29-07, 10:33 AM	You people obviously did not play 1e..... the game is not about Unbeatable super heroes who challenge all obstacles and have no chance of dying, its about the very fear of dying and knowing that your time is limited. NOBODY DIES IN 3ED PUBLISHED ADVENTURES!!!!!!!!!! You clearly have never played Red Hand of Doom. Especially when played in the Living Greyhawk campaign. That adventure can be very deadly if you aren't the right level. Which is one of the innovations of 3E: adventures are actually keyed to adventurers of a certain level, and those who "play up" are taking their characters' lives in their hands. As opposed to 1E/2E where the character levels published on the mods were guesses by the authors. No 10th level PC could survive five minutes in the Tomb of Horrors, yet the PCs included with the mod were all 9th or 10th level. So stop kvetching about the "golden age" that never was. I'd rather have a fighting chance than be killed because some moron at TSR didn't playtest the mod.
Prof. Pacali 06-29-07, 10:40 AM	Prices go up, but the quality of the paper is better. I didn't like the splatbooks for 2nd ed. I don't enjoy the splatbooks for 3.5 either, but that's because Moses really instilled the idea of Core Only when he went on his rant about only needing a few core rules. Yeah, but Moses had a ton of house rules that he never wrote down. The Rabbis eventually had to write all those houserules down because no one could remember them all. :)
protonik 06-30-07, 02:30 PM	>Because now there are mechanics for hearing a battle going >on. There were rules for this in 1e, 2e and Basic...
protonik 06-30-07, 02:41 PM	oh my god leveling in 2e SUCKED. "Okay, i need 5 million exp to get to the next level... that dragon just gave me... YOU'RE KIDDING ME ONLY 10,000 EXP!?!?!?" that kind of stuff. and characters in 2e could get signifigantly more powerful than guys in 3e could. just the Ogre-Mage samurai my friend ran is proof of that. (and on the same note, my 29th level Necromancer). Vagueness in the rules combined with clunky mechanics meant some serious abuse. Those XP rules were awesome because it meant getting to the next level meant something rather than KNOWING you were going to get to the next level every other session to every third session. It has been like playing 1e, which is why I got into 3e because 2e felt wrong and 3e just seemed to get the same things 1e got right to me. And 3e characters are more powerful than previous edition characters at least starting out, Arcane and Divine casters have more spells to start with. Fighter types have very high attack bonuses and starting equivalent of "Thac0" would be 19 for a fighter type. Paladins basically have all the abilities that would be unlocked with a Holy weapon. At high ends I would say that 1e Divine and Arcane caster pwn all other versions though what with no damage caps on spells. Overall though 3e characters are more powerful in terms of massive hit points, high attack bonuses on not just ability scores but also level based etc. But 3e isn't PC friendly by any means. I am running Sunless Citadel right now and have had the equivalent of 2 TPKs on the first level of the dungeon alone with 6 players representing all 4 core and a Paladin and Barbarian. I increased the XP to get them to a higher level to cut back on the TPKs and I have had several TPKS in the past and I am considered an excellent DM by just about all groups I have played with.
protonik 06-30-07, 02:52 PM	a 0th level Blacksmith is a better blacksmith than your character (probably) and could easily be the best blacksmith in the entire world. He has worked the forge for many years and is quite strong and hearty. He has 4 hit points. 18/XX Strength. Lamest idea ever. Actually I prefer this to 3e version. And with NWPS of course he could possibly be better at the forge than a PC, he may have used all his NWP slots on blacksmithing proficiencies, giving him bonuses to his NWP roll, and with an 18 strength, he was damn good. Considering non adventurers didn't need all the proficiencies an PC did, well, derrrr.
protonik 06-30-07, 02:55 PM	I didn't even notice that. That would have been 1991! That's not anywhere close to 1st edition! You can't be nostalgic for Gygax modules if you started in '91. I was born in '91 and I know this. That is very close to 1e and 1e was still on shelves in 91... 2e came out in 1989 and TSR was still selling their 1e stock as well.
protonik 06-30-07, 03:03 PM	13 to 21 miles per gallon? Yeah, didn't think so. Urmmm, people love SUVs and Hummers which get about that MPG... As to Gygaxian DMing... the infamous modules that everybody is talking about are tournament modules designed so that only the most intelligent player would survive to go to the next round and henceforth to win a prize at a convention. Modules like T1 etc. were nothing like Tomb of Horrors and its ilk, they were played for fun and not to kill the players off in TPKs. Keep on the Borderlands was nothing like you guys are complaining about. If a module was designed for a tournament, it was supposed to be deadly, it was supposed to punish poor logic etc. You can't really critique Gary's Dming methods if you haven't played with him because a module is no more a reflection of DMing technique than a doodle is a true indication of an artists talent, you might get some hints at it but it isn't really a good picture. The modules back then were skeletons that the DM adapted to his campaign and not the other way around.