Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Carrion_Buffet 03-11-08, 05:46 PM	This was a odd issue and I am currious on how you would rule on this. A party is sleeping in a canyon with one member standing watch. Just as the watch makes his spot a creature attacks the party from the shadows and everyone (even the sleeping) roll initiative. The creature goes first and attacks with an acid spray...... should a reflex save be allowed for the members of the party that are still sleeping? It seems obvious, but remember you can cu-de-gral (sp?) a sleeping target and they still get a fort save.
Seeker95 03-11-08, 06:02 PM	Sleeping does not allow you to roll initiative. It is an automatic surprise round (although the DM should roll Listen checks for each of the sleeping members to see if they hear something sufficient to wake them up). However, even while sleeping, they get their normal saving throws. Not that lying prone (and/or being flat-footed) may affect some of the outcomes.
celloshane 03-11-08, 06:05 PM	Reflex Saves are allowed while sleeping and are made at a -5 penalty. Thanks Zarith :thumbsup:
RavingDork 03-11-08, 06:58 PM	Reflex Saves are allowed while sleeping and are made at a -5 penalty. Thanks Zarith :thumbsup: They are considered helpless and have an effective Dexterity score of 0. That means they lose there Dexterity bonus AND suffer a -5 penalty to their Reflex save. Stack on whatever penalties or bonuses for being prone on top of that and you're good to go.
kamronshepard 03-11-08, 09:55 PM	Prone is already taken into consideration when a target is helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless), which only affects the attack roll anyways, not the save.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-11-08, 11:06 PM	They are considered helpless and have an effective Dexterity score of 0. That means they lose there Dexterity bonus AND suffer a -5 penalty to their Reflex save. Stack on whatever penalties or bonuses for being prone on top of that and you're good to go. This is phrased rather oddly. The -5 penalty comes from the helpless Dexterity of 0. The way you say it sounds kind of like they take an additional -5 penalty beyond that, which they don't.
RavingDork 03-11-08, 11:36 PM	This is phrased rather oddly. The -5 penalty comes from the helpless Dexterity of 0. The way you say it sounds kind of like they take an additional -5 penalty beyond that, which they don't. It looks odd at first, but it actually makes perfect sense when you read it closer. I said "they lose their BONUS and then take an additional -5." I would be in the wrong had I said something like "they lose their Dex MODIFIER and then take an additional -5." It's a good thing I didn't say that, now isn't it?
Tisi 03-12-08, 09:06 AM	Fortitude is based off of a character's hardiness, not dexterity. Since Constitution is always there whether or not you're sleeping, a saving throw shouldn't take a penalty in that instance. Reflex saves test the ability to dodge an attack. If you're sleeping, you don't get initiative and you don't get much chance to dodge. I can see a goblin running up to a sleeping party and going to stab someone in the head with a pike, and the player's character saving reflex at a -5 penalty, effectively rolling over in his sleep (due to a dream or soemthing), avoiding the pike. EDIT: There's more information on Saving Throws on page 136 of the PHB v3.5
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-12-08, 01:30 PM	Erm, you don't get a Ref save vs stab in the head with a pike. That's attack roll vs AC territory. And a goblin would know better. Running imposes a -20 penalty on Move Silently checks, even with the +4 racial bonus on MS and the -10 penalty on Listen for sleeping characters, you'd still come out a loser. That and a pike isn't exactly finesse-able or throwable to take advantage of that Dex. Of course, if you're going for the CDG (having managed to actually sneak up), attack roll doesn't matter, but then a scythe would be a better choice than a pike there.
Tisi 03-12-08, 01:35 PM	Okay going a little overboard with my example. :rolleyes:
Carrion_Buffet 03-12-08, 01:48 PM	good answers! I just have a hard time wrapping my head around a sleeping player making multiple reflect saves. As I was the player and a large character to boot with two opponents making attacks on me. I easily made my reflex save, but I have a hard time justifying it. To me a reflex save is a conitious effort and as a player sleeps they are not able to make the effort. The initiative roll was to determine when rolls would be made by players to listen and wake up. The surprise round was not effected.
Demon_Paladin 03-12-08, 09:16 PM	There have been some good answers in here. Making a sucessful save while sleeping makes me think of them pulling their bedroll over their head while remaining asleep, with the acid spray. The spear makes me think of someone rolling over in their sleep.
Zherog 03-12-08, 10:13 PM	It looks odd at first, but it actually makes perfect sense when you read it closer. I said "they lose their BONUS and then take an additional -5." I would be in the wrong had I said something like "they lose their Dex MODIFIER and then take an additional -5." It's a good thing I didn't say that, now isn't it? Your statement is, in fact, wrong the first way; and would be more correct the second way. Consider, for example, a character with a Dex of 8. They have no bonus to lose, so keep their -1 penalty; then get another -5 tacked on top of it under your first statement. Whereas with your second statement, you'd wipe away completely their Dex mod, then apply the -5, which is correct.
RavingDork 03-13-08, 12:46 AM	Your statement is, in fact, wrong the first way; and would be more correct the second way. Consider, for example, a character with a Dex of 8. They have no bonus to lose, so keep their -1 penalty; then get another -5 tacked on top of it under your first statement. Whereas with your second statement, you'd wipe away completely their Dex mod, then apply the -5, which is correct. So it is. :embarrass