A wizard knows what level he is! [Archive] - Wizards Community

A wizard knows what level he is! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xanaphia_Undomiel
03-20-07, 03:56 AM I was looking at the description for Chain Lightning a few days ago (page 208 PHB) , and noticed that one of the focuses is "one silver pin for each of your caster levels." So do casters say, "Oh, I need 12 silver pins because I am twelth level"?

Also, wouldn't an intelligant wizard notice, "Oh, I just killed a monster, now I can cast Fireball," or something like that? I think that especially for things like monks, they would notice, "Hey, now I can run 1.6 more feet per second now, I must have gone up a level."

How do we as DMs deal with that, and does anyone else agree?
runestar
03-20-07, 03:59 AM And what would be the problem with that? You want your players to fail at casting chain lightning just because they did not bring enough pins?:confused:
Daydreamer
03-20-07, 04:00 AM In a sense they know how powerful they are.

Strickly speaking they know they need 12 pens to power there spell, not that they are 12th level. Yes they would notice a regularlity, but they would think of it as needing more material components to burn for the spell being cast by stronger spellcasters.

I get around it with spellcheck producing such knowledge in such an indirect manner.-as such its built into magic theory in the game world.
Bedevere
03-20-07, 04:54 AM Or, every wizard could get twenty pins when he first learns the spell... :)

Though the number of spells they have that are target: one person per caster level, I think they DO know their caster level, yes. Also, durations are set by caster level.

Casters in D&D have a very precise idea of relative power. There are too many definite ways to tell someones level via their spellcasting to not.
Greyman
03-20-07, 04:59 AM I was looking at the description for Chain Lightning a few days ago (page 208 PHB) , and noticed that one of the focuses is "one silver pin for each of your caster levels." So do casters say, "Oh, I need 12 silver pins because I am twelth level"?
The number of pins represents the number of secondary targets the caster can strike. If, for whatever reason, the caster does not have enough pins in her bag of tricks --ah, spell component pouch-- to serve as a focus, she simply cannot chain that many bolts. Also the spell will be weaker because she's casting it at a lower caster level.

Conversely, she should always have one or two more pins than she needs, and thus know when she's powerful enough to start to need more when she starts to chain that number of bolts. The character won't think of this in terms of levels, though she'll know the potency of her spells increases with practice and study.
kelvinaw273
03-20-07, 09:04 AM Characters don't know their level, but they know what they can do.

When they level and try something for the first time it is either the result of constant practice, or else they have gained the confidence and nerve to try it for the first time, on a wing and a prayer.
FntsyWlkr
03-20-07, 01:01 PM Sure, but the line may be very blurred.

It is allegorical to weight lifting. I can bench press 270 lbs. I know when I go to do the bench press I need four 45's and two 25 lb weights. (which is the same as saying, when I cast this spell I need 12 pens)

But I can only squat like 135 lbs.
And I can only curl 20lbs.

I can logically say I am more advanced than some people, but not in totallity, nor (by inclusion of metamagic feats like maximize and extend) by endurence. The discrepency of all these factors does not allow me in life to say I am a level 12 weigh lifter. But I am a higher than average weight lifter.
Zandolit
03-20-07, 02:49 PM Leveling up is, by definition, pretty artificial. Characters slay a monster and suddenly they gain more skills that are often unrelated to the circumstance of the monster slaying, or monster slaying in general. It's pretty hard to apply real world logic to that. But we deal with it because the mechanic works and we generally don't have a more organic system to substitute.

That said, I think it does make sense for classes-- or real world groups-- that have any kind of hierarchal organization or training to have some sort of levels. Grade 3 in school is more advanced than Grade 1. Chief of Police outranks beat cop. Manager has more power than Assistant Manager.

I don't think it's that much of a stretch to think that Wizards would have some sort of equivalent categories, even if they don't form a single hierarchy. I don't think it's unreasonable that Wizards would know how powerful they are, and have a system of comparing that to how powerful other people are. Call it levels, call it titles, call it ranks (although that gets confusing because other things are also called ranks... :)) it makes sense to have some system.

Now, this makes more sense for some classes than for others. A Cleric or Paladin would probably have levels for the same reason, a Fighter might depending on background and training, a Druid probably wouldn't, etc.

Just in general, though, I don't think it's unreasonable that a character would have a system for comparing their own power to the power of others, and calling it levels makes sense for some characters and often may be convenient.
swallowyersoul
03-20-07, 02:58 PM it's best not to think about it.

leveling, like hit points, is an abstraction that represents character power.

components are an interesting mechanic, but the details are flavor text at best and, at worst, clever puns.

don't let it bog down the game. the rules are there to help it be fun, not to detract from the fun.
Bruunwald
03-20-07, 03:13 PM You can know how many of what you require to get a job done, and still not equate your ability to a strict, numbered "level."

I know that it takes two hot dogs to fill me up. Does that make me a level 2 hot dog consumer?

Sheesh.
Evil DM Mk3
03-20-07, 03:14 PM Well this is how I see it. The wizard provides a pin per aliquot of the power that could be targeted at a secondary target, a safe earthing point. Without it the spell would overcharge. Caster level is the way that the game measures how many of these aliquots are available.
ENHenry
03-20-07, 03:23 PM Also, wouldn't an intelligant wizard notice, "Oh, I just killed a monster, now I can cast Fireball," or something like that? I think that especially for things like monks, they would notice, "Hey, now I can run 1.6 more feet per second now, I must have gone up a level."

In story terms, I don't see it as "oh, I killed a monster and can cast fireball; I use the DM's discretion built into the section on characters levelling, and describe it more as "Raistlin realizes, upon rest and reflection, that the last time he enspelled that Draconian in combat, the magical cyphers for describing a being's position in the world and time could be done a lot simpler; the knowledge clicked for him, and suddenly, he realized that if he applied this to all his incantations, even spells of the 3rd circle could be opened up to him!"

I do see people ripping on D&D on online forums frequently for "power-ups" and "quantum levelling", but every system, from Warhammer to D&D, to GURPS, has a numerically quantifiable increase associated with it, no matter how large or small. All of them can be described in much the same way through means of story rather than simply describing raw game mechanics. Just like we don't assume that a combat occurs in "turns", it doesn't make sense to assume that a character's progression happens immediately after the fireball toasts the orc. :)
Matthew77
03-20-07, 03:36 PM Alternatively, you could incorporate "level" as an in-game concept.

So many things are linked to level or Hitdice: spells known, saving throws, BAB, skill ranks, feat pre-requisites.

Instead of treating the concept of "level" as an abstract game mechanic (which does work perfectly well), you could treat it as a fact of life in the game world, just like Dwarves and "Evil as an objective force".

Maybe not to the extent as in OOTS, but people could at least reconize that a certain amount of experience or training is linked to specific abilities and mastery of skills.

One could imagine job adds for Guard Captain, "Must be at least level 4 Fighter." This makes just as much sense in-game as an add that reads, "Must be especially proficient in a chosen weapon type."
Bruunwald
03-20-07, 04:22 PM One could imagine job adds for Guard Captain, "Must be at least level 4 Fighter." This makes just as much sense in-game as an add that reads, "Must be especially proficient in a chosen weapon type."

Yeesh. What a scary proposition. In my mind, the problem becomes that it not only invites, but demands an in-game unit of measurement, or qualification, just as it would in real life.

Ask yourself, if in real life I wanted to call myself a 4th-level fighter, what would be the measurement for that, and who would have the right to set the scale? Would the scale be adopted everywhere, by everyone in the world, or would it not be universal?

Okay, so I can lift an axe. I'm 1st level. How do we know when I reach 2nd? Does some guy test me for how many times I hit a bullseye when I throw the axe? How about when I reach 6th level? Is there a guy with a stopwatch there, qualifying how many times I might have hit someone in six seconds?

I think that most of the time, in the real world, when you gain degrees, for instance, in martial arts, it's a matter of intuition and feeling on the part of your sensei. It's not a checklist, but a sense he has, that you have progressed. Maybe a goal he has set for you, that you have reached.

The game is easier, in that somebody already arbitrarily came up with a mechanic that acts as a measurement. But imposing those measurements upon the game world is not only counter to the sense of verisimilitude, it just is inviting trouble from every corner. More rules, more measurements, entire RP sessions built around explaining in-game a mechanic that is already accused of dominating every aspect of the game?

Yikes! Anyway, I know my group would reject it, out of hand. Your results may vary.
Lord_Tirian
03-20-07, 04:32 PM it's best not to think about it.
Exactly. Just ignore it. Wizards could also count the duration of their spells, compare and would find a common divisor - six seconds as lowest unit, showing a "grainy" time. They could even test mages and would find these "levels".

The same with cure minor wounds: A cleric with this could measure HP, because he knows when the spell has no effect any more.

Mages can obviously count their spells per day (just like their possible number of targets), giving them a clue.

So... face it: If in-game characters want to know, they could know. But they don't, because we're simply ignoring this for convenience's sake. Do the same for Chain Lightning. Y'know... apply suspension of disbelief ;)
DoveArrow
03-20-07, 04:51 PM I think that most of the time, in the real world, when you gain degrees, for instance, in martial arts, it's a matter of intuition and feeling on the part of your sensei. It's not a checklist, but a sense he has, that you have progressed. Maybe a goal he has set for you, that you have reached.

I think Bruunwald is exactly right. You don't see anyone classifying themselves, in the real world, as a 4th level cardiologist, or a 10thl level jazz musician. Why would you expect such a thing in the game? Meanwhile, as far as the pins go, I could see one of two things happening: 1) casters carry around a whole handful of pins with them and don't realize that they can actually carry less, or 2) They spend their lonely hours between combats researching spells to find the exact wording they need to make a spell work correctly only to discover that the words cross apply to all spells (kind've like spending hours fiddling with a computer program until you find that one line of code that makes it work correctly, only to discover that if you apply that same logic to some other program, it will make that program work better too).

Nevertheless, I do find myself describing things as +1 longswords and 12th level casters in game, largely because I spend a lot of time talking about +1 longswords and 12th level casters out of game. It's also easier than trying to come up with a completely new set of terms to describe the power levels of things.
_Jayne_Cobb_
03-20-07, 05:16 PM No, a wizard knows what his powers and abilites are and how to make them work. We know what level he is based on those powers and abilties.
Solik
03-20-07, 05:52 PM Tirian nailed it.

You could still have some sort of hierarchy, even a numeric one, for someone's rank. For example, my company has stuff like Engineer I, Engineer II, Engineer III, etc, which reflects experience level and capability (and pay).

But there's also politics and tenure involved there, because that's organization stuff. It's generally a bad idea to tie someone's class down to organizations like that (no matter what the Prestige Class stuff tells you). Guilds and character capabilities should remain separate, even if potentially related.
sigea
03-20-07, 06:33 PM Just my two cents worth, but when I am a player I generally risk my characters longevity by attempting to do things that by 'level' I cannot do.

Example: I am currently a 5th level wizard who wants to make constructs. We all know that by the rules, I cannot create constructs (that work anyway) but non the less, Kentra spends time\money\ and the occasional xp attempting to make them work.

Now as a player I know it will fail, but Kentra just takes this as the learning process (much the same as spell research).

Same with knowledge skills, I want to pick up Knowledge (religion) next level, but knowledge skills are trained only right. That doesn't stop Kentra from evey time the DM says "make a knowledge religion check" to the group, from going 'pick me pick me, I know the answer......oh, sorry, no I don't".

This way, after the battle with the big monster that pushes you into the next level, it is much more plausible that he gets stuff right. It is just the outcome of persistence and trial and error. Now I won't go trying to cast fireball in combat until I have it in my spellbook, but that doesn't mean I havent been spending months trying to learn it, and then suddenly, click, now I get it. Happens to me in real life all the time (not the fireball bit, just the click bit:D )

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xanaphia_Undomiel 03-20-07, 03:56 AM	I was looking at the description for Chain Lightning a few days ago (page 208 PHB) , and noticed that one of the focuses is "one silver pin for each of your caster levels." So do casters say, "Oh, I need 12 silver pins because I am twelth level"? Also, wouldn't an intelligant wizard notice, "Oh, I just killed a monster, now I can cast Fireball," or something like that? I think that especially for things like monks, they would notice, "Hey, now I can run 1.6 more feet per second now, I must have gone up a level." How do we as DMs deal with that, and does anyone else agree?
runestar 03-20-07, 03:59 AM	And what would be the problem with that? You want your players to fail at casting chain lightning just because they did not bring enough pins?:confused:
Daydreamer 03-20-07, 04:00 AM	In a sense they know how powerful they are. Strickly speaking they know they need 12 pens to power there spell, not that they are 12th level. Yes they would notice a regularlity, but they would think of it as needing more material components to burn for the spell being cast by stronger spellcasters. I get around it with spellcheck producing such knowledge in such an indirect manner.-as such its built into magic theory in the game world.
Bedevere 03-20-07, 04:54 AM	Or, every wizard could get twenty pins when he first learns the spell... :) Though the number of spells they have that are target: one person per caster level, I think they DO know their caster level, yes. Also, durations are set by caster level. Casters in D&D have a very precise idea of relative power. There are too many definite ways to tell someones level via their spellcasting to not.
Greyman 03-20-07, 04:59 AM	I was looking at the description for Chain Lightning a few days ago (page 208 PHB) , and noticed that one of the focuses is "one silver pin for each of your caster levels." So do casters say, "Oh, I need 12 silver pins because I am twelth level"? The number of pins represents the number of secondary targets the caster can strike. If, for whatever reason, the caster does not have enough pins in her bag of tricks --ah, spell component pouch-- to serve as a focus, she simply cannot chain that many bolts. Also the spell will be weaker because she's casting it at a lower caster level. Conversely, she should always have one or two more pins than she needs, and thus know when she's powerful enough to start to need more when she starts to chain that number of bolts. The character won't think of this in terms of levels, though she'll know the potency of her spells increases with practice and study.
kelvinaw273 03-20-07, 09:04 AM	Characters don't know their level, but they know what they can do. When they level and try something for the first time it is either the result of constant practice, or else they have gained the confidence and nerve to try it for the first time, on a wing and a prayer.
FntsyWlkr 03-20-07, 01:01 PM	Sure, but the line may be very blurred. It is allegorical to weight lifting. I can bench press 270 lbs. I know when I go to do the bench press I need four 45's and two 25 lb weights. (which is the same as saying, when I cast this spell I need 12 pens) But I can only squat like 135 lbs. And I can only curl 20lbs. I can logically say I am more advanced than some people, but not in totallity, nor (by inclusion of metamagic feats like maximize and extend) by endurence. The discrepency of all these factors does not allow me in life to say I am a level 12 weigh lifter. But I am a higher than average weight lifter.
Zandolit 03-20-07, 02:49 PM	Leveling up is, by definition, pretty artificial. Characters slay a monster and suddenly they gain more skills that are often unrelated to the circumstance of the monster slaying, or monster slaying in general. It's pretty hard to apply real world logic to that. But we deal with it because the mechanic works and we generally don't have a more organic system to substitute. That said, I think it does make sense for classes-- or real world groups-- that have any kind of hierarchal organization or training to have some sort of levels. Grade 3 in school is more advanced than Grade 1. Chief of Police outranks beat cop. Manager has more power than Assistant Manager. I don't think it's that much of a stretch to think that Wizards would have some sort of equivalent categories, even if they don't form a single hierarchy. I don't think it's unreasonable that Wizards would know how powerful they are, and have a system of comparing that to how powerful other people are. Call it levels, call it titles, call it ranks (although that gets confusing because other things are also called ranks... :)) it makes sense to have some system. Now, this makes more sense for some classes than for others. A Cleric or Paladin would probably have levels for the same reason, a Fighter might depending on background and training, a Druid probably wouldn't, etc. Just in general, though, I don't think it's unreasonable that a character would have a system for comparing their own power to the power of others, and calling it levels makes sense for some characters and often may be convenient.
swallowyersoul 03-20-07, 02:58 PM	it's best not to think about it. leveling, like hit points, is an abstraction that represents character power. components are an interesting mechanic, but the details are flavor text at best and, at worst, clever puns. don't let it bog down the game. the rules are there to help it be fun, not to detract from the fun.
Bruunwald 03-20-07, 03:13 PM	You can know how many of what you require to get a job done, and still not equate your ability to a strict, numbered "level." I know that it takes two hot dogs to fill me up. Does that make me a level 2 hot dog consumer? Sheesh.
Evil DM Mk3 03-20-07, 03:14 PM	Well this is how I see it. The wizard provides a pin per aliquot of the power that could be targeted at a secondary target, a safe earthing point. Without it the spell would overcharge. Caster level is the way that the game measures how many of these aliquots are available.
ENHenry 03-20-07, 03:23 PM	Also, wouldn't an intelligant wizard notice, "Oh, I just killed a monster, now I can cast Fireball," or something like that? I think that especially for things like monks, they would notice, "Hey, now I can run 1.6 more feet per second now, I must have gone up a level." In story terms, I don't see it as "oh, I killed a monster and can cast fireball; I use the DM's discretion built into the section on characters levelling, and describe it more as "Raistlin realizes, upon rest and reflection, that the last time he enspelled that Draconian in combat, the magical cyphers for describing a being's position in the world and time could be done a lot simpler; the knowledge clicked for him, and suddenly, he realized that if he applied this to all his incantations, even spells of the 3rd circle could be opened up to him!" I do see people ripping on D&D on online forums frequently for "power-ups" and "quantum levelling", but every system, from Warhammer to D&D, to GURPS, has a numerically quantifiable increase associated with it, no matter how large or small. All of them can be described in much the same way through means of story rather than simply describing raw game mechanics. Just like we don't assume that a combat occurs in "turns", it doesn't make sense to assume that a character's progression happens immediately after the fireball toasts the orc. :)
Matthew77 03-20-07, 03:36 PM	Alternatively, you could incorporate "level" as an in-game concept. So many things are linked to level or Hitdice: spells known, saving throws, BAB, skill ranks, feat pre-requisites. Instead of treating the concept of "level" as an abstract game mechanic (which does work perfectly well), you could treat it as a fact of life in the game world, just like Dwarves and "Evil as an objective force". Maybe not to the extent as in OOTS, but people could at least reconize that a certain amount of experience or training is linked to specific abilities and mastery of skills. One could imagine job adds for Guard Captain, "Must be at least level 4 Fighter." This makes just as much sense in-game as an add that reads, "Must be especially proficient in a chosen weapon type."
Bruunwald 03-20-07, 04:22 PM	One could imagine job adds for Guard Captain, "Must be at least level 4 Fighter." This makes just as much sense in-game as an add that reads, "Must be especially proficient in a chosen weapon type." Yeesh. What a scary proposition. In my mind, the problem becomes that it not only invites, but demands an in-game unit of measurement, or qualification, just as it would in real life. Ask yourself, if in real life I wanted to call myself a 4th-level fighter, what would be the measurement for that, and who would have the right to set the scale? Would the scale be adopted everywhere, by everyone in the world, or would it not be universal? Okay, so I can lift an axe. I'm 1st level. How do we know when I reach 2nd? Does some guy test me for how many times I hit a bullseye when I throw the axe? How about when I reach 6th level? Is there a guy with a stopwatch there, qualifying how many times I might have hit someone in six seconds? I think that most of the time, in the real world, when you gain degrees, for instance, in martial arts, it's a matter of intuition and feeling on the part of your sensei. It's not a checklist, but a sense he has, that you have progressed. Maybe a goal he has set for you, that you have reached. The game is easier, in that somebody already arbitrarily came up with a mechanic that acts as a measurement. But imposing those measurements upon the game world is not only counter to the sense of verisimilitude, it just is inviting trouble from every corner. More rules, more measurements, entire RP sessions built around explaining in-game a mechanic that is already accused of dominating every aspect of the game? Yikes! Anyway, I know my group would reject it, out of hand. Your results may vary.
Lord_Tirian 03-20-07, 04:32 PM	it's best not to think about it. Exactly. Just ignore it. Wizards could also count the duration of their spells, compare and would find a common divisor - six seconds as lowest unit, showing a "grainy" time. They could even test mages and would find these "levels". The same with cure minor wounds: A cleric with this could measure HP, because he knows when the spell has no effect any more. Mages can obviously count their spells per day (just like their possible number of targets), giving them a clue. So... face it: If in-game characters want to know, they could know. But they don't, because we're simply ignoring this for convenience's sake. Do the same for Chain Lightning. Y'know... apply suspension of disbelief ;)
DoveArrow 03-20-07, 04:51 PM	I think that most of the time, in the real world, when you gain degrees, for instance, in martial arts, it's a matter of intuition and feeling on the part of your sensei. It's not a checklist, but a sense he has, that you have progressed. Maybe a goal he has set for you, that you have reached. I think Bruunwald is exactly right. You don't see anyone classifying themselves, in the real world, as a 4th level cardiologist, or a 10thl level jazz musician. Why would you expect such a thing in the game? Meanwhile, as far as the pins go, I could see one of two things happening: 1) casters carry around a whole handful of pins with them and don't realize that they can actually carry less, or 2) They spend their lonely hours between combats researching spells to find the exact wording they need to make a spell work correctly only to discover that the words cross apply to all spells (kind've like spending hours fiddling with a computer program until you find that one line of code that makes it work correctly, only to discover that if you apply that same logic to some other program, it will make that program work better too). Nevertheless, I do find myself describing things as +1 longswords and 12th level casters in game, largely because I spend a lot of time talking about +1 longswords and 12th level casters out of game. It's also easier than trying to come up with a completely new set of terms to describe the power levels of things.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 03-20-07, 05:16 PM	No, a wizard knows what his powers and abilites are and how to make them work. We know what level he is based on those powers and abilties.
Solik 03-20-07, 05:52 PM	Tirian nailed it. You could still have some sort of hierarchy, even a numeric one, for someone's rank. For example, my company has stuff like Engineer I, Engineer II, Engineer III, etc, which reflects experience level and capability (and pay). But there's also politics and tenure involved there, because that's organization stuff. It's generally a bad idea to tie someone's class down to organizations like that (no matter what the Prestige Class stuff tells you). Guilds and character capabilities should remain separate, even if potentially related.
sigea 03-20-07, 06:33 PM	Just my two cents worth, but when I am a player I generally risk my characters longevity by attempting to do things that by 'level' I cannot do. Example: I am currently a 5th level wizard who wants to make constructs. We all know that by the rules, I cannot create constructs (that work anyway) but non the less, Kentra spends time\money\ and the occasional xp attempting to make them work. Now as a player I know it will fail, but Kentra just takes this as the learning process (much the same as spell research). Same with knowledge skills, I want to pick up Knowledge (religion) next level, but knowledge skills are trained only right. That doesn't stop Kentra from evey time the DM says "make a knowledge religion check" to the group, from going 'pick me pick me, I know the answer......oh, sorry, no I don't". This way, after the battle with the big monster that pushes you into the next level, it is much more plausible that he gets stuff right. It is just the outcome of persistence and trial and error. Now I won't go trying to cast fireball in combat until I have it in my spellbook, but that doesn't mean I havent been spending months trying to learn it, and then suddenly, click, now I get it. Happens to me in real life all the time (not the fireball bit, just the click bit:D )