Abilities and what they really mean [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abilities and what they really mean [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
folxnumeroso
03-28-06, 11:22 AM I know that the abilities in D&D seem self-explanatory, but I've seen a lot of misconceptions. I played an elf illusionist once who had 6 charisma. I describe my character as one who must methodically and tediously clean and primp himself every morning. A fellow player suddenly says, "No he doesn't, he has a charisma score of 6! He doesn't bathe for weeks on end! On top of that, he's ugly as [expletive deleted]!" At first I thought he was joking, but I eventually found out that he was serious.

Also, knowing exactly what makes your character’s ability scores high can help explain your character a little more. My fighter with an 18 in strength might not be a hulking mass of muscle, but may be a slim, athletic figure (especially if he's an elf with relatively low constitution).

As a warning, these are my conceptions of the abilities. If they don't match yours, then cool: you have your own opinion. In fact, I welcome you to post your conception of the abilities. But don't say, "You're wrong" just because you see things differently than me.

Anyway...

Strength - Sheer power and athleticism. Running, jumping, and swimming, as well as damage and lifting power are among the things that strength affects. Many athletic checks probably should be based on strength, as should feats of sheer strength (pushing and pulling things, breaking things by force, crushing things, and the like).

Dexterity - Steadiness, nimbleness, reflexes, and the ability to manipulate the body (especially the little parts such as fingers), and manipulate objects. Dexterity affects the ability to dodge opponents, pick locks, pick pockets, balance on a ledge, act first in combat, and hold a tray full of full glasses of water in an earthquake. Any checks that involve minute control of the body should be based on dexterity.

Constitution - Fitness, health, endurance, and ability to withstand physical things. Constitution affects how long you can hold your breath, how long you can run, how well your body fends off poison and disease, and how well you can stand pain (part of HP). Checks to test physical endurance or to physically withstand something should be based on constitution.

Intelligence - Raw knowledge, the ability to process knowledge, and the ability to learn and figure things out. Knowledge checks, skill points, disable device, search, craft, and forgery are based on intelligence. Intelligence can be used to figure out how to make something, how to disarm a trap, how to search and what to look for, as well as learn new skills and learn facts and their relevance. Intelligence also affects wizard spells, since a wizard's spells are based on study and learning.

Wisdom - Willpower, awareness, and intuition (maybe faith and practical knowledge). Wisdom is mentally what constitution is physically, as well as how aware a character is of his or her surroundings. The senses (spot, listen, and such), sense motive, survival, profession, heal, memory, and sheer force of will are affected by wisdom. Any check that involves awareness, knowing what to do ahead of time (like heal and survival), patience, calmness, mental control, memory, or tests of mental endurance should be based on wisdom. Cleric and druid spells are also based on wisdom.

Charisma - No, not looks (that was comeliness in AD&D, which for some reason they scrapped). Charisma is force of personality for some, and likeability for others, and a combination of the two for others. I've also racked my brain to come up with why charisma affects use magic device and sorcerer spells, and I've finally got it: natural talent (which also plays into perform). Charisma affects interpersonal skills (diplomacy, handle animal), how well you lie and deceive (bluff, disguise, "poker face", etc.), natural talent (perform, use magic device), and how well you can manipulate and/or use others (intimidate, bluff, diplomacy, gather information). Any check involving social skills, natural talent (such as juggling), interaction, argument, deception, convincing someone of something, or passing yourself off as something you're not (I am Schmendrick, the great magician!) should be based on charisma. Charisma also affects sorcerer and wizard spells, since their spells are based on raw talent.

Phew. Anyway, I hope I've helped someone out there understand something. Or at least given someone something to think about. Maybe someone can improve on what I've said (someone probably can). I'll hope to post later about the derived statistics (AC, HP, etc.) I also look forward to input/criticism.
KublaiKhan
03-28-06, 12:14 PM I think you meant to say "sorcerer and bard spells" in the charisma section....

Not a bad overview. I find it's generally charisma that has the most misconceptions.

Why UMD works with charisma is similar to why sorcerer spells work, in my opinion--you're essentially bluffing reality into conforming to what you want. Also, if you read the text of UMD, you find that you can use items "as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment"--so it's kinda like a really specialized kinda bluff.
Rapiersman
03-28-06, 12:34 PM The reason for charisma affecting spells in some cases like sorcerer's spellcasting and spell-like abilities is because you use your force of your personality, your mind's Strength. I don't think it's really otherwise "natural" talent, however. It affects all perform checks because the the game designers wanted to make it simple; charismatic people intuitively know how to entertain people. I don't think it direclty affects your skill to play an instrument, sing or juggle. I think it's completely mental stat, like Wisdom and Intelligence.
Bruunwald
03-28-06, 12:34 PM It's hard to tell if you now understand or agree with your friend on the topic of Charisma. He was right, though: Charisma is a set measure of personality, appearance and general magnetism. And I'm not talking about what the score represents here. I'm talking about how the scores are to be approached.

In cleaning and primping and preening, you were trying to overcome the score as if it were a handicap, but that's not what your character would have done. Your character's score was precisely a measure of how much he did not care to preen and primp or do anything but grunt at people and slap them when they came near.

Somebody who wants to clean up to better appeal to people already has a good Charisma score and probably some Wisdom, as well. Conversely, somebody with a really low Wisdom probably does not care about becoming wise.

The game implies that the abilities fall into two categories, and they do: the physical attributes and the mental attributes. The physical ones are more under the PC's control. For instance, any reasonably intelligent person can say to himself, "I need to lose weight, or gain a little muscle." On the other hand, the mental ones ought to be played to some degree as if the character is at their mercy. No wise person says "I need to be more wise," unless he has a pretty high Intelligence and can see the effects of his lack of wisdom. Even then, understanding what they mean often requires wisdom in the first place.

Similarly, a guy of low Intelligence rarely admits to it (unless he's wise), and a person whose fundamental nature is to pick his nose and yell a lot at other people probably does not have the capacity for much change. At least in game terms. Real life is different. Real people ought not be pigeonholed.
Kalai_Eljahn
03-28-06, 01:07 PM *sigh* And characters should be?
I understand and have some amount of control over my mental statistics, why can my character not? I can see how an elf who realizes people don't pay attention to him would try and make up for this, becoming obsessed over grooming and such. Believe it or not, people will not necessarily pay more attention to you if you are always obsessing over how you look.
Naturally, my charisma is not all that great. I'm introverted, a daydreamer, uncertain, and my empathic skills just get in the way. However, I've managed to overcome my faults and acquire not just ranks in diplomacy but also this 'force of personality' to a greater degree than I'd expected. Likewise, I know how to improve my intelligence score, and it's not staring at a screen. I'm not certain about wisdom, however... ((Can't say much about physical scores, except my Dex went from 6-7 to 8...well, and that it's hard to solve things like allergies and asthma.))

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
folxnumeroso 03-28-06, 11:22 AM	I know that the abilities in D&D seem self-explanatory, but I've seen a lot of misconceptions. I played an elf illusionist once who had 6 charisma. I describe my character as one who must methodically and tediously clean and primp himself every morning. A fellow player suddenly says, "No he doesn't, he has a charisma score of 6! He doesn't bathe for weeks on end! On top of that, he's ugly as [expletive deleted]!" At first I thought he was joking, but I eventually found out that he was serious. Also, knowing exactly what makes your character’s ability scores high can help explain your character a little more. My fighter with an 18 in strength might not be a hulking mass of muscle, but may be a slim, athletic figure (especially if he's an elf with relatively low constitution). As a warning, these are my conceptions of the abilities. If they don't match yours, then cool: you have your own opinion. In fact, I welcome you to post your conception of the abilities. But don't say, "You're wrong" just because you see things differently than me. Anyway... Strength - Sheer power and athleticism. Running, jumping, and swimming, as well as damage and lifting power are among the things that strength affects. Many athletic checks probably should be based on strength, as should feats of sheer strength (pushing and pulling things, breaking things by force, crushing things, and the like). Dexterity - Steadiness, nimbleness, reflexes, and the ability to manipulate the body (especially the little parts such as fingers), and manipulate objects. Dexterity affects the ability to dodge opponents, pick locks, pick pockets, balance on a ledge, act first in combat, and hold a tray full of full glasses of water in an earthquake. Any checks that involve minute control of the body should be based on dexterity. Constitution - Fitness, health, endurance, and ability to withstand physical things. Constitution affects how long you can hold your breath, how long you can run, how well your body fends off poison and disease, and how well you can stand pain (part of HP). Checks to test physical endurance or to physically withstand something should be based on constitution. Intelligence - Raw knowledge, the ability to process knowledge, and the ability to learn and figure things out. Knowledge checks, skill points, disable device, search, craft, and forgery are based on intelligence. Intelligence can be used to figure out how to make something, how to disarm a trap, how to search and what to look for, as well as learn new skills and learn facts and their relevance. Intelligence also affects wizard spells, since a wizard's spells are based on study and learning. Wisdom - Willpower, awareness, and intuition (maybe faith and practical knowledge). Wisdom is mentally what constitution is physically, as well as how aware a character is of his or her surroundings. The senses (spot, listen, and such), sense motive, survival, profession, heal, memory, and sheer force of will are affected by wisdom. Any check that involves awareness, knowing what to do ahead of time (like heal and survival), patience, calmness, mental control, memory, or tests of mental endurance should be based on wisdom. Cleric and druid spells are also based on wisdom. Charisma - No, not looks (that was comeliness in AD&D, which for some reason they scrapped). Charisma is force of personality for some, and likeability for others, and a combination of the two for others. I've also racked my brain to come up with why charisma affects use magic device and sorcerer spells, and I've finally got it: natural talent (which also plays into perform). Charisma affects interpersonal skills (diplomacy, handle animal), how well you lie and deceive (bluff, disguise, "poker face", etc.), natural talent (perform, use magic device), and how well you can manipulate and/or use others (intimidate, bluff, diplomacy, gather information). Any check involving social skills, natural talent (such as juggling), interaction, argument, deception, convincing someone of something, or passing yourself off as something you're not (I am Schmendrick, the great magician!) should be based on charisma. Charisma also affects sorcerer and wizard spells, since their spells are based on raw talent. Phew. Anyway, I hope I've helped someone out there understand something. Or at least given someone something to think about. Maybe someone can improve on what I've said (someone probably can). I'll hope to post later about the derived statistics (AC, HP, etc.) I also look forward to input/criticism.
KublaiKhan 03-28-06, 12:14 PM	I think you meant to say "sorcerer and bard spells" in the charisma section.... Not a bad overview. I find it's generally charisma that has the most misconceptions. Why UMD works with charisma is similar to why sorcerer spells work, in my opinion--you're essentially bluffing reality into conforming to what you want. Also, if you read the text of UMD, you find that you can use items "as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment"--so it's kinda like a really specialized kinda bluff.
Rapiersman 03-28-06, 12:34 PM	The reason for charisma affecting spells in some cases like sorcerer's spellcasting and spell-like abilities is because you use your force of your personality, your mind's Strength. I don't think it's really otherwise "natural" talent, however. It affects all perform checks because the the game designers wanted to make it simple; charismatic people intuitively know how to entertain people. I don't think it direclty affects your skill to play an instrument, sing or juggle. I think it's completely mental stat, like Wisdom and Intelligence.
Bruunwald 03-28-06, 12:34 PM	It's hard to tell if you now understand or agree with your friend on the topic of Charisma. He was right, though: Charisma is a set measure of personality, appearance and general magnetism. And I'm not talking about what the score represents here. I'm talking about how the scores are to be approached. In cleaning and primping and preening, you were trying to overcome the score as if it were a handicap, but that's not what your character would have done. Your character's score was precisely a measure of how much he did not care to preen and primp or do anything but grunt at people and slap them when they came near. Somebody who wants to clean up to better appeal to people already has a good Charisma score and probably some Wisdom, as well. Conversely, somebody with a really low Wisdom probably does not care about becoming wise. The game implies that the abilities fall into two categories, and they do: the physical attributes and the mental attributes. The physical ones are more under the PC's control. For instance, any reasonably intelligent person can say to himself, "I need to lose weight, or gain a little muscle." On the other hand, the mental ones ought to be played to some degree as if the character is at their mercy. No wise person says "I need to be more wise," unless he has a pretty high Intelligence and can see the effects of his lack of wisdom. Even then, understanding what they mean often requires wisdom in the first place. Similarly, a guy of low Intelligence rarely admits to it (unless he's wise), and a person whose fundamental nature is to pick his nose and yell a lot at other people probably does not have the capacity for much change. At least in game terms. Real life is different. Real people ought not be pigeonholed.
Kalai_Eljahn 03-28-06, 01:07 PM	sigh And characters should be? I understand and have some amount of control over my mental statistics, why can my character not? I can see how an elf who realizes people don't pay attention to him would try and make up for this, becoming obsessed over grooming and such. Believe it or not, people will not necessarily pay more attention to you if you are always obsessing over how you look. Naturally, my charisma is not all that great. I'm introverted, a daydreamer, uncertain, and my empathic skills just get in the way. However, I've managed to overcome my faults and acquire not just ranks in diplomacy but also this 'force of personality' to a greater degree than I'd expected. Likewise, I know how to improve my intelligence score, and it's not staring at a screen. I'm not certain about wisdom, however... ((Can't say much about physical scores, except my Dex went from 6-7 to 8...well, and that it's hard to solve things like allergies and asthma.))