Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yaeri 07-24-05, 01:40 PM	I always had the feeling the different abilities were unbalanced. Strength, dexterity and constitution all seemed about equally powerful. Intelligence seemed to be a tad less powerful. Wisdom seemed far less useful than the other abilities and charisma even less. I started thinking about this again when a while ago another DM gave one of the players a +2 to wisdom as sort of a wish, at level 9. At first I thought, whoa, +2 to a stat just like that. Untill I asked myself what it did. It increased that players will save with 1 and upped a fair amount of skills with 1. One or two of those skills she actually uses. Some people will say that wisdom is very powerful for a cleric for example. And that Charisma is very usefull to a sorcerer. That's true, but still those abilities are less powerful. If they were all equally powerfull charisma wouldn't be the dump stat and wisdom the next. I started writing down all the effects of all the different abilities and gave them points. The main reason why three abilities were weaker than the others seemed to me, that strength's 'fighter' bonuses can be used by anyone (even wizards) while intelligence's bonus to spell DC and bonus spells does didly squat for any character that's not a wizard. I wanted to give the abilities I perceive as weaker some extra bonuses that are good for all classes. So that next time when a fighter has to choose a dump stat he won't right away say: charisma, or wisdom; but he actually has to weigh the usefullness of all abilities against each other and has to think about what's he going to sacrifice. I 'm not saying these changes are how things should be in the d&d game. It's what I want to use in my future campaigns. I'm pretty sure about what I want to add to intelligence and wisdom, but I'm quite at a loss with charisma. So I could really use some help with that one. Any ideas of additional bonuses that fit in with charisma, bonuses that are of use to any class? Furthermore I'm not entirely sure about exact numerical values, so any suggestions for balance changes to those are welcome as well. Numerical stats for changes are at the bottom of the thread. STRENTGH: unchanged DEXTERITY: unchanged CONSTITUTION: unchanged INTELLIGENCE: Limped only slightly behind on the others in my opinion, perhaps it doesn't even need a boost. I'm planning on using the 'lore' system from the baldur's gate games (PC) to allow the players to identify magic items on sight. Every character would receive lore based upon her class each level, and intelligence would give a small boost. Each item receives a lore value and when a characters lore is higher or equal to that amount of lore she can identify it on sight. This would mainly be used to easily identify items of lower level than the party. Higher level items and artifacts would require investments in abilities and lore items by the players. WISDOM: Needs a huge boost in my opinion. A small boost to lore just as with intelligence. And secondly and more importantly: a boost in Experience earned. A character who is wiser learns faster from their mistakes, can more easily adapt to new situations, gains insights faster. I got the idea from Planescape Torment (pc d&d planescape game) where wisdom does the same (except for the numerical values) CHARISMA: The hard one. So far I've come up with: Being able to sell wares at higher prices and be able to buy at lower prices. (got this from Baldur's gate too). Besides that I came up with two smaller things. Someone with a strong force of personality will give up less quickly when dying, and not so easily let go of life. = A boost to the 10% chance to stabilize when dying. Secondly in the same flavour: a boost to the amount of hitpoints under zero. I'm not satisfied about the changes to charisma. I want things that better fit the ability. And perhaps more interesting things. Numbers: Lore per class: Fighter, Barbarian, commoner, expert, monk, warrior, ranger, paladin: +1/lvl Druid, Rogue, sorcerer, Cleric, Adept, Aristocrat: +2/lvl Wizard: +3/lvl Bard: +5/lvl Intelligence mod*2 added/substracted to lore Wisdom mod*2 added/substracted to lore Item lore: Potion: (spell level+1)²+6 Wand: (spell level+2)²+5 Staff: (total spell level+1)²+5 rods and rings: (shop price/1000)+10 wondrous items: (shop price/1000)+5 arms/armour: (enhancement bonus +1)²*2 Artifacts: enhancement bonuses as with arms and armour. The complete and special abilities of the artifact chosen by the DM at item creation WISDOM EXTRA EXPERIENCE wisdom score 0=0% 1=10% 2-3=20% 4-5=50% 6-7=75% 8-9=90% 10-11=100% 11+ = ability mod *2% added to experience gained. I don't have my books here right now and need to look at the xp chart in the dm guide. The goal is to have a +10 wisdom mod make a character earn xp as if he was one level lower than he actually is, and thus being able to maintain one level higher than a character with a mod of 0. The 2% is a guess, if I remember the xp chart correctly. Charisma: One extra hp under -10 for each positive charisma mod. So a charisma of 17 would lower the life-dead border to -13 Chances of stabilization when under 0 hp= 10% + Cha mod*4% Item sell price: sell price* (100% + CHA mod *1.5%) Item buy price: Buy price*(100% - CHA mod *1.5%)
weasel fierce 07-24-05, 02:15 PM	I dont see why the scores need to be balanced. Each thing benefits its own thing. Being strong wont help you investigate who kidnapped the king's daughter. Being smart isnt a help if you are brawling an umber hulk. On a game design perspective, I do like wisdom benefiting experience. Charisma and hit points ? I think thats a bit of a stretch. I'd rather have used charisma for a saving throw mod or whatnot
Dragonsblood 07-24-05, 03:05 PM	The experience boost from wisdom is a bad idea. It gives clerics and druids too much of an advantage. I've always liked the idea of lore in those video games - perhaps make it an int based class skill for everyone like in NWN. It kind of annoys me that identifying is so expensive and tedious at low levels. Your idea for a Cha bonus is what my group houserules for Con. Personally I see nothing wrong with the system the way it is. Each stat SHOULDN'T be equally important to every class. I also think you give too much credit to physical stats. - Str doesn't really help a wizard like you claim because how often does a wizard enter melee? The only thing it remotely helps is carrying capacity, and that's solved by bags of holding, etc. Other stats ALWAYS take priority in any class other than melee fighter types. - Dex is nice, but an extra point of AC and a slightly better initiative isn't a big deal. This is really only useful for classes that use ranged weapons or weapon finesse. - Con gives 1 extra HP per level for every two points - woop de do. I rarely ever see characters start with more than a +2 in con. I mean it helps, but it's not a favorite stat (like Int for a wiz or Str for a fighter) for any class. It's only a popular secondary stat.
anarco_rata 07-24-05, 03:11 PM	Trying to make every stat important for every class is a pathway to Min/Max'ing...and min/max'ing is a pathway to the dark side...
Yaeri 07-24-05, 04:12 PM	The experience boost from wisdom is a bad idea. It gives clerics and druids too much of an advantage. I see your point. Although this may balance it out for other classes, for druids and clerics it's just an additional advantage on top of the rest. Balance here may be impossible to achieve. I know chances are big I'll just have to drop this whole thing in the end. Your idea for a Cha bonus is what my group houserules for Con. I can see why. It is more easily justified for constitution. I'm not satisfied with what I came up with for charisma. Personally I see nothing wrong with the system the way it is. Each stat SHOULDN'T be equally important to every class. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to change which ability is most important to a class. I want to change which ability is the least important to a class. Because I'm under the impression those are always the same ones. I wanted to make it so that secondary classes could be chosen from and not the same for each class. - Str doesn't really help a wizard like you claim because how often does a wizard enter melee? I may have explained myself unclearly there. I'm not saying strength is as good for a wizard as to fighter classes, far from it. But strength can and will be used by wizards, as will dexterity and constitution. They will occasionaly sling a bullet, especially at low levels, and at higher levels maybe when they run into magic immune things or the like. The bonus to their AC will also be used now and then. Because even if they have to stay out of combat, occasionnaly something will sneak up on them. This is an uncommon maybe even rare use. But's it's a use. While the combat abilities of charisma are zero usefull to a wizard. That's why he'll pick that as his lowest stat. A gnome sorcerer in our party has sliced a number of throats with a sickle at low levels and has flung quite a bullet at enemies she either didn't want to waste a spell on or were immune or resistent to her spells. Never however did she have an opportunity to use wisdom's or intelligence's bonus to spell DC or bonus spells. That's what I mean.
Vaelan 07-24-05, 07:26 PM	Trying to make every stat important for every class is a pathway to Min/Max'ing...and min/max'ing is a pathway to the dark side... Read IceFractal's post in this topic (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=469395) and, at your discretion, recant. :)
jukar 07-24-05, 10:52 PM	WISDOM: Needs a huge boost in my opinion. A small boost to lore just as with intelligence. And secondly and more importantly: a boost in Experience earned. A character who is wiser learns faster from their mistakes, can more easily adapt to new situations, gains insights faster. I got the idea from Planescape Torment (pc d&d planescape game) where wisdom does the same (except for the numerical values) Oh that's just what we need, druids gaining levels even faster. Well, if you are looking for alternate uses for typical dump stats, you are treading into UA/Houserule territory. In our current campaign we use CHA as the base stat to determine Action Points. And don't forget, Wisdom has a use in that your Will saves are dependant on it. Granted, it's not nearly the impact that STR or CON gain, but even still, you can punish a player for having low WIS through use of enchantments.
Rohano 07-25-05, 12:51 AM	This is a joke, right? Doing bonuses for stats like this might seem like a good idea, but it's NOT. The 3rd edition to D&D is quite balanced in regard to stats and doing something like this totally flips everything on its head. To identify potions, use herbalism and alchemy. If it's really such a pain to use Identify to figure out what a magic item is (it's a low-level spell! How can you not identify everything that needs identifying if you've got atleast 1 arcane caster in your group?), have casters of the appropriate type (a divine caster wouldn't know what an arcane item does unless he has arcane caster levels; exception: Gnomes have innate arcane magic, regardless of class) with item creation feats roll spellcraft. I believe that there are epic feats and some class abilities out there that make it so that a character does not die at -10. If it's really such a pain to die at -10, stop letting yourself get pulled to -10 and get a hardier class and a higher constitution. If you let your wise old divine casters get loads of experience, soon you'll find that your party is nothing but divine casters. A divine caster has insane power at higher levels, and letting your party know that it's very easy to get that power will just result in a party of clerics, druids, rangers and paladins. The whole point of the stats is to make it so that every stat is relied upon for everyday functions. Strength is your muscle tone, dexterity is how flexible and graceful you are, constitution is your immune system plus your natural hardiness, intelligence is your intuitive and analytical ability, wisdom is the major difference between foolhardy foul-tempered jerks and quiet old men whom everybody loves to talk to, and charisma is your personal magnitude. They already benefit such things as accuracy, attack damage, skills, talents, spellcasting ability, the amount of blood you can lose before you fall over, and so on. Adding more to each stat like what you are proposing is redundant. Lore is UNNECESSARY. Identify spells, Bardic Lore (if you have no bards, of course you'd never discover that Lore does already exist in 3rd edition, DUH), Knowledge skills... I believe Weasel Fierce puts it best. ]Game balance is a joke. The notion that something is "broken" is merely a failure to understand that a roleplaying game, as a medium, cannot be perfectly balanced, and indeed, should not. If you want to go assigning new uses to stats and totally rewriting valid and balanced parts of the game, then you should just go play GURPS or the Big Eyes, Small Mouth systems. If your players aren't making good use of their stats and skills, they aren't skilled D&D players. If need be, throw problems and quests and things at them that require all of those stats and skills that they neglect (you mentioned that your players hardly use very many of their stats). if the situation turns sour and they get angry, just snap back that if they had put a few extra skill points here or one stat point there, they'd be out of whatever bind they're in. I mean nothing on a personal level, but it is my opinion that D&D doesn't need its basics rewritten because the players are stupid.
Lina_Inverse 07-25-05, 04:34 AM	.... the weakest stat in game is strengh.it only boosts carrying capicity and to-hit/damage whooo +1 dmg who cares. Dex boosts AC and init. con boosts fort and hp. int is the best stat for any skill in the game,additionally it lets wizards cast spells. wis helps divine casters.what more could a stat ask for??!?!?!? cha is at least better than strengh.
Yaeri 07-25-05, 08:07 AM	I'm going to put it in the fridge for a while. I'm thinking now that I might not get this to work. The biggest problem you guys've shown me is that my changes will make the lower abilities too strong for the casters who have it as their main ability. I see now that I've rushed into this without thinking it through too much. I feel a bit foolish but I'll get over it. :D Thanks for the answers and insights.