Ability Score Balance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ability Score Balance [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Remmer
06-18-07, 05:54 PM Woo hoo! It's time to discuss the balance of ability scores! Obviously, please refrain from flaming and unrealistic hypothetical scenarios, and of course, please justify all claims with logic and evidence. Even if no one is convinced of anything, at least that way we can see the reasoning behind other viewpoints. So, just to get things started...

Are all ability scores balanced?

Are the physical ability scores "worth more" than mental ability scores?

And concerning ubercaster races (gasp!):

Is -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha balanced?

If so/not, is +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha balanced?
Kamin_Majere
06-18-07, 06:03 PM Ability scores are generally not balanced i think. Though WotC seems to think they are.

the -2 to all Physical and +2 to all Mental is not balanced because its strong (assuming a LA+0)

the +2 to all Physical and -2 to all Mental is not balanced because its weak (assuming a LA+0)

I tend to ignore templates that only give strength bonus. If a creature gets +8 strength and thats it i still think thats a LA+0 race. DEX and CON are more important because they influence diffrent things (like HP and AC) but a small increase to them is really nothing.

WIS, INT, CHA all effect casting so bonus to them are more powerful as it not only effects how much you can cast but the saves verse what you cast.

A fighter at 20th level with a +60 racial mod to STR is still not very scary to a 20th level Wizard with +4 racial mod to INT
Crimson_Concerto
06-18-07, 06:19 PM I think neither of your two hypothetical ability adjustments are balanced, because both are too powerful. Why? Because a character with the first is going to use it with a caster that benifits a lot from all of the mental stats, and it won't care at all about its physical stats, so that won't matter. A character with the second will play a heavily combat-oriented character, and it won't really need to have high mental scores to be good at what it does.

When looking at racial ability score adjustments, recognize that players will likely make use of the ability scores such that the ability bonus will be something the character cares about, and the downsides of the ability penalties will be minimized. Thus, giving a race +2 to three stats and -2 to three stats is actuall A LOT more powerful than giving +2 to one stat and -2 to another.

However, it is true that not all ability scores are made equal. In particular, INT may be one of the most powerful racial stat boosts because it's basically giving the human bonus skill points. When coupled with an INT-based spellcasting class, while not making the race immediately overpowered, there won't be too much room for other abilities that are actually significant.

Though, I would like to say I believe it a myth that LA +0 races shouldn't get racial bonuses to mental stats. I see no problem with it, and even though many may argue that it's too powerful for casters, it honestly doesn't make casters all that much better than they already are.
Arcomage
06-18-07, 06:25 PM A fighter at 20th level with a +60 racial mod to STR is still not very scary to a 20th level Wizard with +4 racial mod to INT

That is because of an imbalance in class features, though, not an imbalance in stat modifiers.

In general, I would say that a -2 Physical, +2 Mental stat race is possible - Even a Wizard needs CON and DEX (because sooner or later somebody is going to ready a ranged attack of some sort to trigger on them casting a spell), while to that same Wizard the bonuses to CHA and WIS are largely wasted, only showing up on the character sheet as a minor bonus to social skills and spot/listen as well as a +1 to the Will save which was already good to begin with. It is still very potent, however, and I would not allow it in my own campaign.

A +2 Physical, -2 Mental stat race is trickier. The bonuses here are more disparate, because sooner or later EVERYONE needs DEX and CON to some degree, but nonspellcasters can generally do perfectly without WIS and CHA. INT is a bit trickier since it governs skills, but a physical character would still massively benefit from such a statline. Of course, given the inherent inferiority of combat-oriented characters to spellcasters it may still be acceptable.

Generally, I feel that CON is the most valuable stat out there, being used by all classes to some degree or another. DEX and INT are second - It might not be important to all characters, but very few can ignore them (And many build specifically around these stats). WIS is third, governing divine spellcasting (which is very powerful, but that is not an issue with Wisdom as a stat) and the Will save which is important to any character who likes to be in control of his own actions. CHA and STR are lowest in my mind, the former only being used by spellcasters who specifically work off the stat due to class features and the latter only really coming into play for characters who choose to hit things in melee and do not have one of the myriad other ways of adding damage.
VrecknidjX
06-18-07, 06:26 PM They're good enough, I think, or we'd see more significant imbalance in player choices.

Dave
RobbyPants
06-18-07, 06:28 PM Generally speaking, I think as soon as you add a +2 to any stat, it will become unbalanced, regardless of whatever stat you penalize. The reason for this is that players will only choose classes that benifit from the bonuses and hide the penalties well.

For example, if you're a half orc, you're not going to choose to play an arcane caster for any reasons other than RP reasons. You will, however, play barbarians and fighters. This would still be the case if they were only penalized on one of their mental stats.

Likewise, nobody plays grey elf barbarians. Those are reserved primarily for arcane casters and rogues. They make fantastic beguilers.

The reason for this imbalance is that a typical player will choose their class before their race. The class defines the character mechanically much more than the race. At this point, choosing the race is a matter of picking where you want your bonuses and penalties.

The system would be more "balanced" if players had to choose their class at random. Suddenly, picking a grey elf would become a serious gamble. I'm not proposing this would be a good system. I think it would be a crappy system. I'm meerly pointing out that as soon as you apply bonuses "balanced" by penalties, players are going to start looking for the biggest advantage.

Luckily, the human race is the "balancing" factor. Want a race that's good (but not great) at everything? Pick human. That bonus feat goes a long way to get players to consider something that doesn't have racial ability modifiers. This is, where I think the half-elf fails. They don't offer enough to get players away from the ability mods... but that's for another thread. ;)
[/rambling]
Remmer
06-21-07, 10:34 PM My opinion is that neither of the arrays of racial modifiers are balanced. I think that by far, most physical combatants would choose the race that gives bonuses to all physical abilities, whereas the vast majority of casters (especially those who depend on/strongly benefit from more than one mental ability) would choose the all mental race.

I don't see racial ability bonuses as inherently unbalanced. You don't have to be a munchkin or even a powergamer to have a character that is at least somewhat optimized, and I don't find (reasonable) optimization to take away from either the fun or roleplaying aspects of the game. I think people should create characters that are good at what they do. That's how real life is anyway.

As far as choosing class at random, something I plan on doing for my next campaign is to determine PC race and background (wealth, social class, certain level 1 class options available, etc.) randomly, and after that allow classes to be chosen normally. In real life, factors about birth are arbitrary anyway, so nothing about the system is too weird. Some friends of mine have been doing this for a few games, and they like the extra challenge and roleplaying opportunities.
Leilond
06-22-07, 08:10 AM There's a reason because all the races with LA 0 that have 2 positive bonus stat, have 3 negative bonus

Because of the "point buy system"
Think about this build
16-16-16-10-10-10
This will require 36 points

If I have three +2 adjustement and three -2 adjustement I can obtain the same result starting from here
14-14-14-12-12-12
For a total of 30 points

That's the issue to be considered. Each +2/-2 that you give to a race your giving MORE than you ask. One +2/-2 is good... Two +2/-2 are bad... you need to give three -2 as exchange for two +2 or you're going to lose balance (at low level)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Remmer 06-18-07, 05:54 PM	Woo hoo! It's time to discuss the balance of ability scores! Obviously, please refrain from flaming and unrealistic hypothetical scenarios, and of course, please justify all claims with logic and evidence. Even if no one is convinced of anything, at least that way we can see the reasoning behind other viewpoints. So, just to get things started... Are all ability scores balanced? Are the physical ability scores "worth more" than mental ability scores? And concerning ubercaster races (gasp!): Is -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha balanced? If so/not, is +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha balanced?
Kamin_Majere 06-18-07, 06:03 PM	Ability scores are generally not balanced i think. Though WotC seems to think they are. the -2 to all Physical and +2 to all Mental is not balanced because its strong (assuming a LA+0) the +2 to all Physical and -2 to all Mental is not balanced because its weak (assuming a LA+0) I tend to ignore templates that only give strength bonus. If a creature gets +8 strength and thats it i still think thats a LA+0 race. DEX and CON are more important because they influence diffrent things (like HP and AC) but a small increase to them is really nothing. WIS, INT, CHA all effect casting so bonus to them are more powerful as it not only effects how much you can cast but the saves verse what you cast. A fighter at 20th level with a +60 racial mod to STR is still not very scary to a 20th level Wizard with +4 racial mod to INT
Crimson_Concerto 06-18-07, 06:19 PM	I think neither of your two hypothetical ability adjustments are balanced, because both are too powerful. Why? Because a character with the first is going to use it with a caster that benifits a lot from all of the mental stats, and it won't care at all about its physical stats, so that won't matter. A character with the second will play a heavily combat-oriented character, and it won't really need to have high mental scores to be good at what it does. When looking at racial ability score adjustments, recognize that players will likely make use of the ability scores such that the ability bonus will be something the character cares about, and the downsides of the ability penalties will be minimized. Thus, giving a race +2 to three stats and -2 to three stats is actuall A LOT more powerful than giving +2 to one stat and -2 to another. However, it is true that not all ability scores are made equal. In particular, INT may be one of the most powerful racial stat boosts because it's basically giving the human bonus skill points. When coupled with an INT-based spellcasting class, while not making the race immediately overpowered, there won't be too much room for other abilities that are actually significant. Though, I would like to say I believe it a myth that LA +0 races shouldn't get racial bonuses to mental stats. I see no problem with it, and even though many may argue that it's too powerful for casters, it honestly doesn't make casters all that much better than they already are.
Arcomage 06-18-07, 06:25 PM	A fighter at 20th level with a +60 racial mod to STR is still not very scary to a 20th level Wizard with +4 racial mod to INT That is because of an imbalance in class features, though, not an imbalance in stat modifiers. In general, I would say that a -2 Physical, +2 Mental stat race is possible - Even a Wizard needs CON and DEX (because sooner or later somebody is going to ready a ranged attack of some sort to trigger on them casting a spell), while to that same Wizard the bonuses to CHA and WIS are largely wasted, only showing up on the character sheet as a minor bonus to social skills and spot/listen as well as a +1 to the Will save which was already good to begin with. It is still very potent, however, and I would not allow it in my own campaign. A +2 Physical, -2 Mental stat race is trickier. The bonuses here are more disparate, because sooner or later EVERYONE needs DEX and CON to some degree, but nonspellcasters can generally do perfectly without WIS and CHA. INT is a bit trickier since it governs skills, but a physical character would still massively benefit from such a statline. Of course, given the inherent inferiority of combat-oriented characters to spellcasters it may still be acceptable. Generally, I feel that CON is the most valuable stat out there, being used by all classes to some degree or another. DEX and INT are second - It might not be important to all characters, but very few can ignore them (And many build specifically around these stats). WIS is third, governing divine spellcasting (which is very powerful, but that is not an issue with Wisdom as a stat) and the Will save which is important to any character who likes to be in control of his own actions. CHA and STR are lowest in my mind, the former only being used by spellcasters who specifically work off the stat due to class features and the latter only really coming into play for characters who choose to hit things in melee and do not have one of the myriad other ways of adding damage.
VrecknidjX 06-18-07, 06:26 PM	They're good enough, I think, or we'd see more significant imbalance in player choices. Dave
RobbyPants 06-18-07, 06:28 PM	Generally speaking, I think as soon as you add a +2 to any stat, it will become unbalanced, regardless of whatever stat you penalize. The reason for this is that players will only choose classes that benifit from the bonuses and hide the penalties well. For example, if you're a half orc, you're not going to choose to play an arcane caster for any reasons other than RP reasons. You will, however, play barbarians and fighters. This would still be the case if they were only penalized on one of their mental stats. Likewise, nobody plays grey elf barbarians. Those are reserved primarily for arcane casters and rogues. They make fantastic beguilers. The reason for this imbalance is that a typical player will choose their class before their race. The class defines the character mechanically much more than the race. At this point, choosing the race is a matter of picking where you want your bonuses and penalties. The system would be more "balanced" if players had to choose their class at random. Suddenly, picking a grey elf would become a serious gamble. I'm not proposing this would be a good system. I think it would be a crappy system. I'm meerly pointing out that as soon as you apply bonuses "balanced" by penalties, players are going to start looking for the biggest advantage. Luckily, the human race is the "balancing" factor. Want a race that's good (but not great) at everything? Pick human. That bonus feat goes a long way to get players to consider something that doesn't have racial ability modifiers. This is, where I think the half-elf fails. They don't offer enough to get players away from the ability mods... but that's for another thread. ;) [/rambling]
Remmer 06-21-07, 10:34 PM	My opinion is that neither of the arrays of racial modifiers are balanced. I think that by far, most physical combatants would choose the race that gives bonuses to all physical abilities, whereas the vast majority of casters (especially those who depend on/strongly benefit from more than one mental ability) would choose the all mental race. I don't see racial ability bonuses as inherently unbalanced. You don't have to be a munchkin or even a powergamer to have a character that is at least somewhat optimized, and I don't find (reasonable) optimization to take away from either the fun or roleplaying aspects of the game. I think people should create characters that are good at what they do. That's how real life is anyway. As far as choosing class at random, something I plan on doing for my next campaign is to determine PC race and background (wealth, social class, certain level 1 class options available, etc.) randomly, and after that allow classes to be chosen normally. In real life, factors about birth are arbitrary anyway, so nothing about the system is too weird. Some friends of mine have been doing this for a few games, and they like the extra challenge and roleplaying opportunities.
Leilond 06-22-07, 08:10 AM	There's a reason because all the races with LA 0 that have 2 positive bonus stat, have 3 negative bonus Because of the "point buy system" Think about this build 16-16-16-10-10-10 This will require 36 points If I have three +2 adjustement and three -2 adjustement I can obtain the same result starting from here 14-14-14-12-12-12 For a total of 30 points That's the issue to be considered. Each +2/-2 that you give to a race your giving MORE than you ask. One +2/-2 is good... Two +2/-2 are bad... you need to give three -2 as exchange for two +2 or you're going to lose balance (at low level)