Post/Author/DateTime	Post
luchexx 07-09-07, 12:05 PM	Hi, does anybody know if Ability Scores can decrease below 0? :confused: :confused: :confused:
WackyOne 07-09-07, 12:07 PM	They can't - but there are nasty effects when any of those is at 0, from paralisys, to coma, to death.
Eater_Of_Souls 07-09-07, 12:21 PM	As the PhB says "once an attribute is reduced to 0 you are as good as dead". ;)
Nihzlet 07-09-07, 12:38 PM	if your CON hits 0, you die. if anything else hits 0, you are helpless/comatose in one form or another. they cant go below 0.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 07-09-07, 04:02 PM	Hi, does anybody know if Ability Scores can decrease below 0? Of course they can, but only under certain conditions; specifically, the condition known as "death."
StevenO 07-09-07, 04:53 PM	I will say they CAN go below zero but "negative" scores are always treated as zero. If you don't say it is possible to drop below zero then some will say any stat boosting magic item would prevent that stat from dropping to zero. Example: some poison drops a characters Str rendering them immobile so just slap that belt of Str on them and they'll be fine; nevermind the poison did 3d6 (roll=13) Str damage to a Str 8 character and the belt is only +2. Effectively stats don't drop below zero but keep track of anything that would take a stat below zero and make sure any boosts have to toward paying that first.
Hidden 07-09-07, 05:14 PM	let me see if I can remember the effects of a zero ability score off the top of my head: Str: (this one I can't quite remember) paralyzed and incapable of breathing. If steps are not taken to save you, you will die of asphyxiation in a number of rounds equal to your constitution score (I think). Dex: you are now paralyzed Con: you are now Dead Int: You are now comatose Wis: You are now insane Cha: You are now the new Quasimodo and the target of endless Yo Momma jokes. No Charisma based spell casting and cha-based skill checks fail on anything short of a natural 20. That sound about right?
General_Ridley 07-09-07, 05:39 PM	let me see if I can remember the effects of a zero ability score off the top of my head: Str: (this one I can't quite remember) paralyzed and incapable of breathing. If steps are not taken to save you, you will die of asphyxiation in a number of rounds equal to your constitution score (I think). Dex: you are now paralyzed Con: you are now Dead Int: You are now comatose Wis: You are now insane Cha: You are now the new Quasimodo and the target of endless Yo Momma jokes. No Charisma based spell casting and cha-based skill checks fail on anything short of a natural 20. That sound about right? Everything's right, except charisma, I think. You turn into a jar, because anything with 0 charisma is an object. And your Wisdom automatically degrades to 0, since you can't have a wisdom if you have no charisma.
ItaraKoturo 07-09-07, 05:41 PM	Not quite. A character with 0 Strength falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with 0 Dexterity is paralyzed. A character with 0 Constitution is dead. A character with 0 Intelligence is in a coma. A character with 0 Wisdom is in a coma. A character with 0 Charisma is in a coma.
ItaraKoturo 07-09-07, 05:43 PM	Everything's right, except charisma, I think. You turn into a jar, because anything with 0 charisma is an object. And your Wisdom automatically degrades to 0, since you can't have a wisdom if you have no charisma. Having a 0 in an ability score is not the same as not having an ability score. Undead do not have a Constitution score, but having 0 Constitution does not make you undead. It just makes you regular old dead.
_SIN_ 07-09-07, 09:55 PM	Since you can't have a wisdom if you have no charisma. In game terms maybe. But that really makes no sense. So you're not allowed to be wise if you're not likable? I mean, wisdom is the 'understanding of things', so what has that got to do with 'popularity'? Well, whoever came up with that ruling must be the ugliest person in the world!!
Salla 07-09-07, 10:40 PM	In game terms maybe. But that really makes no sense. So you're not allowed to be wise if you're not likable? I mean, wisdom is the 'understanding of things', so what has that got to do with 'popularity'? Well, whoever came up with that ruling must be the ugliest person in the world!! You misunderstand what Charisma and Wisdom are. Quoting relevant portions of the SRD: Wisdom Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score. Charisma Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score
ArcTan 07-09-07, 11:54 PM	let me see if I can remember the effects of a zero ability score off the top of my head: Str: (this one I can't quite remember) paralyzed and incapable of breathing. If steps are not taken to save you, you will die of asphyxiation in a number of rounds equal to your constitution score (I think). Dex: you are now paralyzed Con: you are now Dead Int: You are now comatose Wis: You are now insane Cha: You are now the new Quasimodo and the target of endless Yo Momma jokes. No Charisma based spell casting and cha-based skill checks fail on anything short of a natural 20. That sound about right? Sort of. It's important to note that at Wis 0 you're so insane that you can't do anything at all (catatonic fugue state). Cha is wrong. Whether or not your physical appearance *affects* your starting Cha, Cha drain doesn't make you uglier. It simply reduces your force of ego (the Cha-damaging psionic power is called ego whip). You lose your will to live and your ability to perceive or interact with others, and at Cha 0 you end up devoid of all volition and desire, sitting there like a zombie.
ArcTan 07-10-07, 12:01 AM	Everything's right, except charisma, I think. You turn into a jar, because anything with 0 charisma is an object. And your Wisdom automatically degrades to 0, since you can't have a wisdom if you have no charisma. NO. The game rules explicitly tell you that having a Cha score of 0 is different from not having a Cha score at all (which is expressed as Cha --). A person whose Cha has been reduced to 0 still *has* a Cha score. The Cha score is 0. (Just like if I'm a baseball player who's never gotten a hit yet I have a batting average of .000, which is different from not having a batting average because I've never played baseball.) A person can have a Cha score of 0 and still be a creature and therefore still have all the rights and privileges thereto appertaining. Cha 0 doesn't affect his other scores any more than Dex 0 or Int 0 does.
ArcTan 07-10-07, 12:21 AM	In game terms maybe. But that really makes no sense. So you're not allowed to be wise if you're not likable? I mean, wisdom is the 'understanding of things', so what has that got to do with 'popularity'? Well, whoever came up with that ruling must be the ugliest person in the world!! D&D Charisma only incidentally means "popularity", just like D&D Dexterity doesn't actually require that one have hands. It means force of personality or awareness or will. If you have *no* personality *at all*, then there's nothing there that can perceive the outside world (which is what D&D Wisdom means, and really shouldn't be called "Wisdom", since in real life what people mean by wisdom isn't the same). The simple example of Mind Flayers should be proof that high Cha doesn't mean "attractive" or "popular".
General_Ridley 07-10-07, 01:17 AM	NO. The game rules explicitly tell you that having a Cha score of 0 is different from not having a Cha score at all (which is expressed as Cha --). A person whose Cha has been reduced to 0 still *has* a Cha score. The Cha score is 0. (Just like if I'm a baseball player who's never gotten a hit yet I have a batting average of .000, which is different from not having a batting average because I've never played baseball.) A person can have a Cha score of 0 and still be a creature and therefore still have all the rights and privileges thereto appertaining. Cha 0 doesn't affect his other scores any more than Dex 0 or Int 0 does. I know. I still think it's more fun to say "You're an object now." though. I mean rather than saying "You're reduced to a hunk of humanoid-shaped flesh unwilling to betray any signs of its own existance, unable to discern the difference between itself and everything around it." you can instead say "Here's a jar. It's filled with juice. It's pretty much the same as your character right now."
Salla 07-10-07, 03:14 AM	I know. I still think it's more fun to say "You're an object now." though. I mean rather than saying "You're reduced to a hunk of humanoid-shaped flesh unwilling to betray any signs of its own existance, unable to discern the difference between itself and everything around it." you can instead say "Here's a jar. It's filled with juice. It's pretty much the same as your character right now." Actually, were I to do that ... I'd just put a vegetable on the table. Seems just as accurate. :)
General_Ridley 07-10-07, 03:18 AM	At last someone who understands. Thank you.
pmurray@bigpond.com 07-10-07, 03:58 AM	Str=0 - like total muscle atrophy. Too weak to make voluntary movements at all Dex=0 - unable to contol your movements. Paralysed, having a seizure, affected by Otto's Irresistable Dance. Con=0 - dead. Pure and simple. The mental stats are a little trickier. Int=0 - comatose, perhaps. Unconcious. Completely unable to think. Wis=0 - insane? Cha=0 - a tricky one. Cha is about your ability to project will outwards. Profoundly autistic, perhaps. Catatonic (not the same thing as comatose or unconcious). Like a person who does not know that they can make their body move just by wishing it so. In general, I think of it this way: Str/Cha - strength of body/mind directed outward - attacking Dex/Int - quickness, flexibility, facility, of body/mind Con/Wis - strength of body/mind directed inward - defending In D&D, Int is more than quickness - it's capacity to remember detail that makes a Wizard or a Sage. (in D&D, that is. IRL - who knows?) Personally, I think that Strength should be understood as "general athleticism", which means that Str, not Dex, gives the AC bonus. After all, why should a jewler be better able to dodge a blow than a footballer? But that would make Str an uber stat for melee ... which, arguably, it should be. The Max Dex bonus on armour would have to limit dodge bonuses (ie, dodge bonuses stack, but are limited by armour no matter how far you satck them).
ArcTan 07-10-07, 03:20 PM	Str=0 - like total muscle atrophy. Too weak to make voluntary movements at all Dex=0 - unable to contol your movements. Paralysed, having a seizure, affected by Otto's Irresistable Dance. Technically, Otto's irresistible dance doesn't reduce Dex to 0, or make you helpless. The compulsion to dance controls your actions, but not *completely* -- it only gives you a -4 to AC and -10 to Reflex saves and keeps you from using a shield, but if you have a very high Dex bonus to AC you can still have a positive bonus to AC from this. A very agile person can find ways to dodge projectiles while still keeping up the dance. Con=0 - dead. Pure and simple. The mental stats are a little trickier. Int=0 - comatose, perhaps. Unconcious. Completely unable to think. Wis=0 - insane? Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless. Cha=0 - a tricky one. Cha is about your ability to project will outwards. Profoundly autistic, perhaps. Catatonic (not the same thing as comatose or unconcious). Like a person who does not know that they can make their body move just by wishing it so. Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless. In general, I think of it this way: Str/Cha - strength of body/mind directed outward - attacking Dex/Int - quickness, flexibility, facility, of body/mind Con/Wis - strength of body/mind directed inward - defending In D&D, Int is more than quickness - it's capacity to remember detail that makes a Wizard or a Sage. (in D&D, that is. IRL - who knows?) Well, technically Wisdom is defined as the capacity to perceive and react to the external environment. Really, I'd lump Dex and Wis in the same category. Dex is the capacity to physically react to external threats, and Wis is the capacity to mentally react to external threats. That's why Dex boosts the Reflex saving throw and Wis boosts the Will saving throw. Int isn't really *quickness* of mind. It's simply the capacity to *have thoughts* in the normal human sense, like Con is the capacity to have life functions in the normal human sense. Con and Int define the ability to carry on internal processes of body or mind in a recognizable, attackable way -- they aren't "defense" as such. Con boosts the Fort save, sure, but *not having* a Con score generally protects you against Fort-save effects working on you at all, just like *not having* an Int score protects you against mind-affecting effects working on you at all. Con and Int are parallel in that they're by far the most common ability scores for monsters to lack -- Golems, Skeletons, Zombies, etc. always lack both. This doesn't make Skeletons less "mentally quick" than Humans or Golems have "weaker physical defenses" than Humans -- quite to the contrary. In D&D, Int is more than quickness - it's capacity to remember detail that makes a Wizard or a Sage. (in D&D, that is. IRL - who knows?) Personally, I think that Strength should be understood as "general athleticism", which means that Str, not Dex, gives the AC bonus. After all, why should a jewler be better able to dodge a blow than a footballer? But that would make Str an uber stat for melee ... which, arguably, it should be. The Max Dex bonus on armour would have to limit dodge bonuses (ie, dodge bonuses stack, but are limited by armour no matter how far you satck them). If Dex meant what "dexterity" means in real life -- fine manual motor control -- then it'd become a largely useless ability score for a game that's mostly focused around combat. You'd have to find some other way to pile on "dodge bonuses" so that you could have the two fantasy archetypes of the quick, nimble unarmored fighter and the big, brutish tough fighter. It's much easier to pretend that the Dexterity score is called the Agility score and ignore the parts of Dex that have to do with tiny fine movements of the hands (which are, really, very few and far between -- indeed, things like watchmaking or gemcutting are controlled by Craft skills based on Int, *not* Dex) than to say that Str is "general athleticism" and therefore the only skill anyone needs to take. After all, then you'd be saying that it's impossible to be very physically strong but quite clumsy, or be very deft and nimble on your feet but incapable of hitting with much force. Both of which are quite possible and quite common. A footballer is someone who *has* a high Str and Dex. But would it be easier to land a punch on, say, a bodybuilder or a stevedore than on a dancer? Wouldn't a track-and-field star and gymnast be harder to hit than a linebacker? Contrariwise, who could dish out a heavier *punch* -- the gymnast or the linebacker? If anything, the real mystery is the division between Str/Dex and Con -- I know plenty of clumsy strong people and plenty of weak nimble people, but I don't know of anyone who's generally physically competent who doesn't also have a basic level of physical health. The Str 18 Con 6 person is nonexistent in real life, as far as I know. But that's the way with all extremes in D&D ability scores. I certainly understand and have seen the difference between Str 16 Con 12 and Str 12 Con 16. (Quite a few bodybuilders and weightlifters lag in cardiovascular fitness and general health.)
Eater_Of_Souls 07-10-07, 03:56 PM	So in effect a character with out charisma and wisdom is like an automaton doing only what his comrades tell him to do. ie. 'walk' and character walks and keeps on walking even when falling down from a cliff unless told to stop.
General_Ridley 07-10-07, 04:04 PM	So in effect a character with out charisma and wisdom is like an automaton doing only what his comrades tell him to do. ie. 'walk' and character walks and keeps on walking even when falling down from a cliff unless told to stop. not quite. They have no will to move on their own, nor do they have will to move on orders of anyone else, considering they can not percieve anything that is not themselves nor can they percieve that they even exist. they would fall down and suffocate because they wouldn't even breathe.
Aloki 07-10-07, 09:31 PM	they would fall down and suffocate because they wouldn't even breathe. actually. humans are subconscious (or whatever similar word) breathers. We actually have no choice to when we can breathe, if it is possible, which is why we drown, we are trying to breathe the water. Which is why we breathe while we are sleeping, and why we (usually) breather if we are in a coma
Salla 07-10-07, 10:30 PM	actually. humans are subconscious (or whatever similar word) breathers. We actually have no choice to when we can breathe, if it is possible, which is why we drown, we are trying to breathe the water. Which is why we breathe while we are sleeping, and why we (usually) breather if we are in a coma I agree. The autonomic nervous system (heartbeat, breathing, etc) would continue to operate.
ArcTan 07-10-07, 11:47 PM	So in effect a character with out charisma and wisdom is like an automaton doing only what his comrades tell him to do. ie. 'walk' and character walks and keeps on walking even when falling down from a cliff unless told to stop. When Cha or Wis hit 0, they become helpless and unconscious, unable to do anything at all. Wis 0 means they wouldn't even be capable of perceiving their comrades or hearing their instructions -- their senses are filled with meaningless nightmares. Cha 0 means they don't even have the very minimal amount of volition needed to follow instructions. Note that "mindless" creatures like Skeletons and Golems still have a Cha and Wis score -- you need some volition and some perception in order to be able to do anything at all.
ItaraKoturo 07-11-07, 01:05 AM	Okay, stop. Why are you guys debating this? It's not some vague area of the rules open to interpretation. The consequences of having an ability score reduced to 0 are clearly outlined in the rules. Furthermore, having 0 in a score is not the same as not having a score. That's all there is to it.
ArcTan 07-11-07, 05:58 AM	Well, yes. I've been repeating what the rules say all this time, but as usual people feel the need to insert their own "theories".
Hidden 07-13-07, 11:48 PM	Well, yes. I've been repeating what the rules say all this time, but as usual people feel the need to insert their own "theories". What are rules, if not some thing to be loosly interpreted or completely ignored for the sake of posting in a forum? :D Like I said, the stuff at the top is just what I could remember off the top of my head. I think it was first ed. ad&d that said being reduced to a zero Wis resulted in the same effect as... was it insanity or confusion? Bah. That's going to bug me all day. I find it interesting what different people would rule in their game when presented with the same situation, and their reasoning behind the ruling. Does anyone know where exactly the effects of reduced scores are listed for 3.5 ed? I feel like my Wisdom is decreasing the more I think about this. :mymy:
ArcTan 07-14-07, 12:39 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss This is the text of DMG pg. 289.
Hidden 07-14-07, 09:14 PM	Thanks! time to brake out the sticky notes...