Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StormKnight 09-20-05, 12:33 PM	This came up in another thread, and so as not to derail I thought I might start a new one: If you've been on the boards for a while, you've probably seen my methods for pimping the Deck of Many Things (its even in somebody's sig here on the boards, in an incomplete form) with a lvl 2 spell, or how a lvl 1 sorcerer can take over the world with nothing more than the Hypnotise spell. Both of which are 100% unstoppable without houserule intervention. The Deck of Many things idea is that you use Augury to determine whether the card draw is good or bad. Looking at this without houserules, I don't see it being at all unstoppable. First of all, if its a concern the DM never has to let the party get a Deck of Many Things, which is a game-risking item to begin with. Secondly, if the player wants to do that, there's a simple problem with it. The DM doesn't know what the draw will be. Sure, the DM could peek, but then the DM could also roll out a fight to see if it will go badly or not. I'm guessing most DMs won't roll out the fight, why should they peek at the card? Simply give the answer based on what is the most likely outcome from the deck. I don't know what the hypnotise abuse is. I would be curious if someone could explain it!
Rhomphaia 09-20-05, 12:42 PM	I have heard of the Deck of Many Things combo, and a very simple house rule also solves that problem. Even with the DM peeking, he could rule that the deck doesn't shift until drawn from, meaning that a 'woe' result will always be a 'woe' result until the card is drawn. Yes, me and another in my group are fans of throwing random result items (Deck of Many Things, Rod of Wonder) items into our games to keep players on their toes and to make the game more amusing (works especially well wit Rod of Wonder). Anyway, I haven't heard of the Hypnotize abuse yet, I would be interested in that one.
spectralphoenix 09-20-05, 02:05 PM	There's also the "bag of rats" fighter mentioned in a FAQ somewhere. A fighter with Whirlwind attack and Great Cleave carries around a bag of rats. When he sees an opponent, he dumps the bag and whirlwinds, getting a cleave attempt against his real enemy for every rat he drops. He could even attack the rats with subdual damage so he can use them in the next fight. I don't know about the hypnotise spell. It lasts for 2d4 rounds and offers a will save. Maybe this was something that only worked in 3.0? I don't have my old books with me, but maybe it worked differently then.
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-20-05, 02:10 PM	Well, actually the deck of many things technically wouldn't work, because the DM doesn't and shouldn't know what the next card should be any more than the PCs do. If the PCs are going to get into a battle, or are going to try to climb up a dangerous rockface, does the DM preroll the combat variables? Does he preroll the climb checks? No... he just makes a call based on what he knows, taking into account random factors. A card in the deck of many things is equally a random factor. Just because you're using cards instead of dice shouldn't change that. So augury on a deck of many things would grant an "uncertain" result every time.
Draco Strang 09-20-05, 02:20 PM	So augury on a deck of many things would grant an "uncertain" result every time. Oh, I beg to differ. The DM shouldn't know anymore than the player does until the player casts the augury spell. Then, he has to fill in for the all-knowing cosmic forces and look at the deck. Following that, he gives an answer as per the spell. In no way, shape or form should the DM try to rube or hoodwink his players concerning the Deck of Many Things. It's already dangerous-as-all-getout, and the DM shouldn't make it even more so by refusing to go along with a clever solution to such a potential disaster. And yea, Edymnion pointed out this loophole a long time ago. I think it's just great.
Draco Strang 09-20-05, 02:28 PM	Anyway, I haven't heard of the Hypnotize abuse yet, I would be interested in that one. This is another one Edymnion brought to my attention one day. Given a first level wizard with absolutely no equipment (save spellbook) and the Hypnotize spell, he laid forth a strategy that would let a clever player take over an entire kingdom in a matter of months. He postulated that if you specialized in Enchantment, took the Spell Focus (Enchantment) feat, and then proceeded to waltz into a big city, all you would have to do is start talking to lone commoners and casting Hypnotize on them prior to it. Then, just ask them for their support when you give public speeches (a fairly simple task) and be friendly with them. When the spell wears off, they'll think you're they're new best friend. Do this to enough of them, and when you stage your giant controversial public speech, you'll have an entire throng of commoners whom actively support you. Couple this with an election, and you could do some serious damage. Eventually, you'll be able to get closer and closer to people who hold more power. Do the same thing to them, and you can ask a favor. Eventually, you'll wind up pulling the strings behind the throne. It's an ingenious snowball effect, really.
Manic Man 09-20-05, 02:42 PM	If the PCs are going to get into a battle, or are going to try to climb up a dangerous rockface, does the DM preroll the combat variables? Does he preroll the climb checks? No... he just makes a call based on what he knows, taking into account random factors. A card in the deck of many things is equally a random factor. Just because you're using cards instead of dice shouldn't change that. Oh, I beg to differ. The DM shouldn't know anymore than the player does until the player casts the augury spell. Then, he has to fill in for the all-knowing cosmic forces and look at the deck. Following that, he gives an answer as per the spell. I would agree with the Archtyrant. I would look at it this way a) 10 hp Cleric climbs 100 ft on a DC 10 wall. He has no ranks. He casts augury. b) 10 hp Cleric draws card from deck. He casts augury. Assuming i as DM was filling in for the all-knowing cosmic forces, what would i answer for a). If i had no answer for a), why should i have an answer for b)?
OctoberRaven 09-20-05, 03:02 PM	You could always houserule that the DoMT shuffles itself before a card is first drawn, thus making augury useless because even the DM won't know.
Draco Strang 09-20-05, 03:09 PM	I would agree with the Archtyrant. I would look at it this way a) 10 hp Cleric climbs 100 ft on a DC 10 wall. He has no ranks. He casts augury. b) 10 hp Cleric draws card from deck. He casts augury. Assuming i as DM was filling in for the all-knowing cosmic forces, what would i answer for a). If i had no answer for a), why should i have an answer for b)? What? The two are entirely seperate. One's a stastical probability determined by the dice, and the other one consists of peeking at the card that's on top of the deck. You can't possibly give a 100% perfect answer to the climb check, but you can with the Deck of Many Things. The way I look at it, skill checks are more or less the character's responsiblity. If he fails...it's his own damn fault. Sure, blame it on the dice, but in-game who can he blame but himself? I can imagine it now: "Sorry guys, I didn't know I was gonna roll a 3 on my Forgery check. My bad." Now, with the Deck of Many Things, it's like a game show. The players might not know what's behind Door #3, but you can bet your ass that Bob Barker and Pat Sajak do.
Dragonwriter 09-20-05, 03:14 PM	Hey, wait a minute? Even if it did work and the DM was "forced" to give a good or bad prophecy for a Deck of Many Things (not that I think that works, since you can't make an all-knowing cosmic force to do anything it doesn't damn well want to do, meaning the DM could always choose not to answer and thereby give an uncertain result), what can they do? If they get a result of "woe" on their upcoming card draw, it doesn't exactly help them. That "woe" card will continue to stay at the top of the deck until they draw it... so they'll either have to draw it or throw the deck away, right? It's not like they can just skip that card to get to all the good cards left in the deck. The act of removing the top card, even with the intention skipping to the next one by putting it on the bottom of the deck, for example, would instantly be treated as having drawn the card. As for taking over a small kingdom with a hypnotism spell: it's definitely a good idea, but it doesn't take into account the nearly endless amount of NPCs and other dangerous stuff the DM could then throw at him, and he'd be way too low level to deal with any of them. Thus are the woes of overstepping your bounds. In the end, though, it all comes back to one thing: The Dungeonmaster has final say in the arbitration of all disputes. Period. The Dungeonmaster is incapable of breaking the rules, since he's the one creating them. You cannot 'force' the Dungeonmaster to do anything. Period. The Dungeonmaster is God, so what he says goes. Period. If you don't like it, don't play. I so love being a smart*****. My apologies if I've offended anyone.
Starlight Knight 09-20-05, 04:01 PM	We have a simple rule for that, since the Deck of Many Things has the potential of giving wishes, nobody can use spells or wishes on it. I once saw a DM learn that the hard way when someone used a wish to get a deck of many things. Then to make matter worse, someone else, who got 4 wishes from the deck, used his last wish for another deck of many thing. Things got bad.
Draco Strang 09-20-05, 04:04 PM	Hey, wait a minute? Even if it did work and the DM was "forced" to give a good or bad prophecy for a Deck of Many Things (not that I think that works, since you can't make an all-knowing cosmic force to do anything it doesn't damn well want to do, meaning the DM could always choose not to answer and thereby give an uncertain result), what can they do? If they get a result of "woe" on their upcoming card draw, it doesn't exactly help them. That "woe" card will continue to stay at the top of the deck until they draw it... so they'll either have to draw it or throw the deck away, right? It's not like they can just skip that card to get to all the good cards left in the deck. The act of removing the top card, even with the intention skipping to the next one by putting it on the bottom of the deck, for example, would instantly be treated as having drawn the card. Where did I say that it would allow you to skip cards? The augury spell is so valuable because it lets you continue to draw cards until you come across a bad one, therfore preventing something catastrophic, like insane level loss or banishment. At that point, any sane player would just say "I've had my fun, I'm out." It's just like an alarm...lets you know when something foul is afoot. I expect that spell to do no more or less. As for taking over a small kingdom with a hypnotism spell: it's definitely a good idea, but it doesn't take into account the nearly endless amount of NPCs and other dangerous stuff the DM could then throw at him, and he'd be way too low level to deal with any of them. Thus are the woes of overstepping your bounds. Well that's to be expected. Evil NPCs do that kind of stuff and PCs come running to stop them. It'd work the same way if they were on the opposite side of the fence. I was just merely illustrating that it's possible with Hypnotism, not practical and easy. The Dungeonmaster has final say in the arbitration of all disputes. Period. The Dungeonmaster is incapable of breaking the rules, since he's the one creating them. You cannot 'force' the Dungeonmaster to do anything. Period. The Dungeonmaster is God, so what he says goes. Period. If you don't like it, don't play. You don't say? Wow...I would have never thought of that. Thanks for the sage advice there, chief. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE]
BeyondFated 09-20-05, 04:20 PM	I just thought, if you used augury and 'woe' came up, it would be an awesome trap! Think about it, what would your first reaction be to finding a deck of cards? Probably to draw a few, or to thumb through it. Both of those actions would set off the woe card on the enemy! I love augury.
StormKnight 09-20-05, 04:21 PM	You can't possibly give a 100% perfect answer to the climb check Sure you can. Go ahead and make the skill roll. The same could be extended to other variable tasks. If a character wanted to use Augury to know if entering a duel was a good idea or not, you could fight out the whole duel, tell the player, then if they entered the duel have it go exactly as you rolled it. Rolling the die and peeking at the card are no different. Now, I'm not saying you MUST do that. If you want the player to be rewarded for having a clever way of avoiding disaster with the deck, then go ahead. But a DM, even one for some reason insists on going "by the book" need not feel that this is a threatening combination. Now that I know what the Hypnotise idea is...its interesting, and could be useful in certain circumstances, but its certainly not problematic. First off, the spell lets you make a simple and reasonable request, and they will treat you as friendly regarding that request. "Support me" is neither simple nor neccessarrily reasonable. Even "agree with me" is pushing it; changing someone's ideals and opinions goes far beyond the scope of this spell. There are lots of people I consider good friends who I would not vote for, and do not agree with certain issues on. Now could this spell get some people on your side? Sure, but that's nothing a good speaker couldn't do anyway. And you can bet that if they DO start getting threatening, other people...more powerful people are going to start paying attention, and things could real unpleasant when the authorities find out your going around magically manipulating the populace. This sounds like a basic case of letting the spell do a lot more than it really does. Bag of Rats and whirlwind attack is trickier. Once again, a DM certainly doesn't have to put up with this. The DM can say the rats have died in the bag, or choose to treat them as a single rat swarm. But that's really a secondary concern to the whirlwind attack/cleave combo. If you don't want to allow that, I would say you could interpret (now, I don't have the rules handy so I could be getting things wrong) that when whirlwind attack replaces your attacks, it replaces ALL your attacks on your turn. So you don't get attacks of opportunity - they were replaced by your whirlwind.
twad 09-20-05, 07:52 PM	There's also the "bag of rats" fighter mentioned in a FAQ somewhere. A fighter with Whirlwind attack and Great Cleave carries around a bag of rats. When he sees an opponent, he dumps the bag and whirlwinds, getting a cleave attempt against his real enemy for every rat he drops. He could even attack the rats with subdual damage so he can use them in the next fight. I don't know about the hypnotise spell. It lasts for 2d4 rounds and offers a will save. Maybe this was something that only worked in 3.0? I don't have my old books with me, but maybe it worked differently then. From the SRD: WHIRLWIND ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. Special: A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. So this bag'o'rats trick cannot work.
Molitor 09-20-05, 08:03 PM	The "deck of many things" idea won't work in the rules as written I believe. Because artifacts are not affected by spells. Besides not even GODS know what card you will pick, so it's ridiculous. The hypnotism thing might work in real life but has not a single chance of working in D&D.
Salla 09-20-05, 08:17 PM	The "deck of many things" idea won't work in the rules as written I believe. Because artifacts are not affected by spells. Besides not even GODS know what card you will pick, so it's ridiculous. The hypnotism thing might work in real life but has not a single chance of working in D&D. The DoMT thing works, because the DoMT isn't a true artifact; it's merely a 'minor artifact', which the text specifically calls out as being a regular magic item whose method of creation is lost to antiquity (because they don't want PCs to be able to craft them). And, yes, gods can know what's going to come out of a DoMT. Several gods can see the future, and while the future isn't set in stone, it's pretty easy to look three seconds into the future to see that, if character X draws a card, it's going to be good or bad. If nothing else, you're not casting the spell *on* the DoMT, so whether or not the DoMT is affected by the spell is irrelevant. It's like casting Augury to see if that Golem is going to beat you into the dirt. Its unbeatable SR is irrelevant; you'll get an answer (and it'll probably be 'woe unto you').
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 09-20-05, 08:27 PM	From the SRD: WHIRLWIND ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. Special: A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. So this bag'o'rats trick cannot work. That's the 3.5 text. They changed it specifically so Bag of Rats won't work. Now you can't do it until Epic level, with Improved Combat Reflexes.
Molitor 09-20-05, 08:31 PM	The DoMT thing works, because the DoMT isn't a true artifact; it's merely a 'minor artifact', which the text specifically calls out as being a regular magic item whose method of creation is lost to antiquity (because they don't want PCs to be able to craft them). And, yes, gods can know what's going to come out of a DoMT. Several gods can see the future, and while the future isn't set in stone, it's pretty easy to look three seconds into the future to see that, if character X draws a card, it's going to be good or bad. If nothing else, you're not casting the spell *on* the DoMT, so whether or not the DoMT is affected by the spell is irrelevant. It's like casting Augury to see if that Golem is going to beat you into the dirt. Its unbeatable SR is irrelevant; you'll get an answer (and it'll probably be 'woe unto you'). But when you cast Augury you have not decided how many cards to pick. Unless you have asked to pick and then cast Augury. In either case the player has no real power over how it will play out. And given the possibility of the answer being false or wrong, you have not really gained anything. So it's just as it always will be, uncertain. And about the Deck being a 'minor' artifact has always been a stupid term to me, an artifact is an artifact.....there are no minors. But you are right on the wording in the DMG on that one. I think I must remembering AD&D.
Salla 09-20-05, 08:36 PM	But when you cast Augury you have not decided how many cards to pick. Unless you have asked to pick and then cast Augury. In either case the player has no real power over how it will play out. And given the possibility of the answer being false or wrong, you have not really gained anything. So it's just as it always will be, uncertain.. *cast Augury* "Should I draw one card?" *DM looks at the top card of the deck* >>Weal.<< "Should I draw two cards?" *Dm looks at the top two cards of the deck* >>Weal.<< "Should I draw three cards?" >>Woe (or the 'mixed' result)<< "Okay, I draw two cards." And while Augury isn't exactly foolproof, no, it beats the heck out of drawing blind!
Molitor 09-20-05, 08:42 PM	*cast Augury* "Should I draw one card?" *DM looks at the top card of the deck* >>Weal.<< "Should I draw two cards?" *Dm looks at the top two cards of the deck* >>Weal.<< "Should I draw three cards?" >>Woe (or the 'mixed' result)<< "Okay, I draw two cards." And while Augury isn't exactly foolproof, no, it beats the heck out of drawing blind! Augury is instantaneous. One question.
tiercel 09-20-05, 08:46 PM	First of all, I have to admit that I am at least partially of the opinion that someone who includes a deck of many things in their game deserves whatever they get. On the other hand, I recall a campaign in which a player tried using a wish from a DoMT to "be able to draw only good cards"... and the DM let him. This augury use isn't quite that bad, but you get the idea. Of course, it's not that hard to DM around this. Particularly if you are Evil. First of all, you get a secret die roll to see if the augury even works. Roll those dice in secret, look at them, look at your player with a straight face, and say "Nothing." Second of all, if the player doesn't specify where in the deck his character is drawing from, you can't possibly tell him what the result will be. Roll the dice, look at them, look at your player with a straight face, and say "Nothing". (You're not obligated to tell him why you said "Nothing.") If the player does specify where in the deck he is drawing from (generally, the top, or the bottom), then you can indeed look. Nothing in the RAW says that the DoMT has to be randomly shuffled, if we are going to be literal. Feel free to put (or have pre-stacked) whatever card in that location you feel amusing. (This can work particularly well if you have real-life ranks in Sleight of Hand.) House rules? Pfffft. On the other hand, if you have the DoMT in your campaign, and you aren't ready for your campaign to end, then what are you doing? ------------------------- As for hypnotism, whoopie. A 2nd level bard can easily have +14 Diplomacy (5 ranks, +3 from Cha 16, +6 synergy bonuses), which means even rolling a 1 turns an Indifferent person Friendly. And he can do this once per minute as many times as he feels like, without any obvious/suspicious spellcasting gestures and mumbo-jumbo. I thought the argument for hypnotism was supposed to go something like this: < cheese > The target of the hypnotism spell reacts as if it were two steps more friendly in attitude toward you, with regard to a single request, even after the spell ends. Since the spell has ended, you can cast it again and the spell will make the target another two steps more friendly (and it isn't really the spell stacking with itself, since the old spell isn't active, right?). The "fun" part comes when you realize the Diplomacy table actually has six attitudes, not five; Epic rules add the "Fanatic" attitude. Yup. < /cheese > Of course, if you are allowing a 1st level spell cast by a 1st level character to produce an Epic result, then you probably have other issues in your campaign.
BeyondFated 09-20-05, 10:08 PM	Augury is instantaneous. One question. He meant to say that it is cast before every question.
Molitor 09-20-05, 10:39 PM	He meant to say that it is cast before every question. Playing with the 'Deck' is a gamble at best. That's all I'm trying to get across. Some PCs will take that gamble, would you? NOT your PC but you? I sure as Hell wouldn't.
Manic Man 09-21-05, 12:18 AM	What? The two are entirely seperate. One's a stastical probability determined by the dice, and the other one consists of peeking at the card that's on top of the deck. You can't possibly give a 100% perfect answer to the climb check, but you can with the Deck of Many Things. If i had no answer for the climb result, would i be an all-knowing cosmic force? Indeed, Stormknight has given a logical way to handle it if you played it as if augury was truly all knowing. Also i am not sure if anyone missed this but you must announce how many card you are drawing prior to drawing. If you do not draw within the hour, it will flip out by itself. This means, no sudden stops in drawing the cards or drawing additional cards for the same player (unless it was due to the jester).
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-21-05, 12:44 AM	First of all, you get a secret die roll to see if the augury even works. Roll those dice in secret, look at them, look at your player with a straight face, and say "Nothing." Cheating's your solution? Sorry, but I respect my players.
glennhefley 09-21-05, 12:53 AM	When I think of how to DM items such as Decks of Many Things, I think of them as "I have them in my hand". A PC finds a Deck of Many Things. This is a deck of cards (22) made of ivory. So I'm the PC, sitting there with the deck, going through it, seeing the pictures and figure out "hey, this is a Deck of Many Things, I've heard about these"... Anyone of any intelligence puts them down instantly and doesn't touch them again without fire tongs. But let's say that I've decided my life is worth gambling with because that hot Rogue said she was going to marry the Highway man instead of me, and I decide to use the item. Looked at as a real thing, it doesn't make sense to me that the deck is not self randomizing. Since I can look at the 22 pictures and I might know something about the deck, I can't stack the deck... right? So the artifact has about it a self randomizing quality. If this logic holds, and in my mind it does, then augury always comes up unknown, because until I say "Three cards" or "One card" the deck is unknown. Once I say that, then those cards are mine, according to the description of the artifact in the DM guide, whether I want them or not, with only a little grey area in the Joker card. Another way to play the deck, and the one I prefer is that all of the cards are blank until drawn. You figure out that it is a Deck of Many things by identifing the set of 22 blank ivory cards. Since the cards are blank, the same things goes for augury, or any other divination. your milage may vary...
Journeyman Samwise 09-21-05, 01:29 AM	You guys seem to be forgetting that this is An Artifact you're dealing with. Mage's Disjunction is, what, a 7th level spell and that isn't even effective all the time!
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-21-05, 01:31 AM	You guys seem to be forgetting that this is An Artifact you're dealing with. Mage's Disjunction is, what, a 7th level spell and that isn't even effective all the time! A 9th level spell and still sickly broken. But The DoMT isn't targeted by augury. Augury doesn't effect it in any way. Its supposed to tell the future.
tiercel 09-21-05, 05:31 AM	Cheating's your solution? Sorry, but I respect my players.First of all, if you are using the DoMT in your campaign (as basically anything other than a last-session-of-the-campaign blowout, or in a campaign which is wacky and light anyway), this is debatable. Second of all, if you think allowing a second level spell to defeat an artifact isn't cheating, and don't mind playing the DoMT as Santa Claus instead of "Bet Your Life?", more power to you. Finally, you don't have much room to get righteous saying that fudging a die roll is outside the purview of any DM in any campaign. Maybe you don't like doing it in your campaign, and that's cool. My point is simply that, if you are a DM that ever fudges die rolls to keep the game rolling, this is a pretty obvious one to fudge. (The spell augury even specifies that it is to be a secret roll, so you don't have to be very blatant.) Addendum: if you don't like my first solution, I have others. I'm just saying that if someone is going to get literal with you, you can get literal with them. Rules lawyering works both ways, and as a DM it's just easier to exercise a little bit of common sense prerogative -- but if you don't want to specifically houserule, these are things you can do.
Journeyman Samwise 09-21-05, 05:43 AM	A 9th level spell and still sickly broken. But The DoMT isn't targeted by augury. Augury doesn't effect it in any way. Its supposed to tell the future. A future highly unstable. The "Weal" could come from the gazillions of XP you get from killing off that Dread Wraith sent after you, or the fact that you get a Wish card after your friend was torn in a bloody half and tossed into the Void. The Deck has the power to alter reality. Saying "FU" to Augury isn't much more difficult than that.
BeyondFated 09-21-05, 09:37 AM	Playing with the 'Deck' is a gamble at best. That's all I'm trying to get across. Some PCs will take that gamble, would you? NOT your PC but you? I sure as Hell wouldn't. If I could know what I was drawing, you better believe I would. The "Weal" could come from the gazillions of XP you get from killing off that Dread Wraith sent after you, or the fact that you get a Wish card after your friend was torn in a bloody half and tossed into the Void. Actually, those would be 'Woe then Weal'. The spell even specifies that you should say as such.
Molitor 09-21-05, 10:24 AM	If I could know what I was drawing, you better believe I would. That's just it you never know. Total gamble. :P
Draco Strang 09-21-05, 11:15 AM	If i had no answer for the climb result, would i be an all-knowing cosmic force? Indeed, Stormknight has given a logical way to handle it if you played it as if augury was truly all knowing. By all-knowing, I mean "able to divine anything outside of the player's control that he might ask" There is no such thing as pre-determined personal destiny in D&D. Every die-roll could change everything and nothing at the same time. Not so with asking if the next card is bad, if there will be rain tomorrow, or if opening that door will lead you to treasure or trolls. Those are black and white, straight answers. Also i am not sure if anyone missed this but you must announce how many card you are drawing prior to drawing. If you do not draw within the hour, it will flip out by itself.. This means, no sudden stops in drawing the cards or drawing additional cards for the same player (unless it was due to the jester). So cast augury multiple times, asking if each successive card will be good or bad. If you get two weals and then a woe, announce that you'll draw two. Simple
Draco Strang 09-21-05, 11:17 AM	The Deck has the power to alter reality. Saying "FU" to Augury isn't much more difficult than that. Does the DoMT's description specifically state that Augury won't work on it? Does it say it has the ability to confound and bamboozle the augury spell? Nope.
Phrennzy 09-21-05, 11:44 AM	The Deck has the power to alter reality. Saying "FU" to Augury isn't much more difficult than that. DM: You find a Deck of Many Things on the table. Cleric: I cast Augury and ask what happens if I choose 1 card. DM: (Rolls) Cleric: So? Is is Weal or Woe? What? DM: It's "FU". Cleric: :eek:
Darien_CR 09-21-05, 11:48 AM	This is stupid! The Deck of Many Things is an artifact for god's sake! It is not affected by low-level magic such as Augury or Hypnotism. Moreover, Gods are aware when someone uses an artifact and won't let such thing happen. I use the DOMT in my campaigns a lot, and nothing wrong has happened. Cause we're not playing MTG, this is D&D.
Draco Strang 09-21-05, 11:59 AM	This is stupid! The Deck of Many Things is an artifact for god's sake! It is not affected by low-level magic such as Augury or Hypnotism. Moreover, Gods are aware when someone uses an artifact and won't let such thing happen. Show me where it says that in the SRD. Are you trying to imply that low-level magic is useless for solving big problems? I've seen dragons (with crappy reflex saves and unable to fly) laid low by a handy Grease spell. Show me where it says that the DoMT is immune to the effects of Augury. I for one think its a great form of "damage control" for such a potentially nasty artifact. Besides, you're forgetting the "nothing" result players could get. if they draw on nothing, its a crap shoot.
Phrennzy 09-21-05, 12:01 PM	I use the DOMT in my campaigns a lot That must be an interesting campaign.
Draco Strang 09-21-05, 12:15 PM	That must be an interesting campaign. Ya know...somehow I'm able to read the tone of that statement perfectly, despite the lack of smileys and the fact that we've never had a face to face conversation. Maybe because I'm thinking in the exact same tone?
Sulaco 09-21-05, 12:21 PM	Augury has a maximum 90% accuracy IIRC, so there is always a margin for error. Also, IMO the DoMT is essentially a quantum effect. The top card is niether (or both if you prefer) a good or bad one until drawn. If you used Augury the result would always be uncertain.
Bane 09-21-05, 01:45 PM	Why is it that no one has noticed that the DoMT is shuffled in between draws? The DM might be able to tell the top draw, depending on how you use the Deck. Personally, I would say that the deck is continuously self randomizing. That is to say, if my players decided to cast Augury, I would stop shuffling for a second to peek at the top card. Then I would tell them the result as I start shuffling again. Things change, and the DoMT is a perfect example. Uncertain is the best Augury could do. Augury just tells you the odds. If a 3rd level cleric asks for the odds on a battle between him and a Rakshasa, he's going to get Woe. If a 17th level cleric asks for the odds on a battle between him and a first level wizard, he's going to get Weal. It doesn't matter that the wizard could potentially win, odds are that he's going to get pasted.
glennhefley 09-21-05, 01:53 PM	He has a good point.. you are not trying to solve a problem, you are trying to outwit a god. The creator or forger of a DoMT is a 20th lvl or higher Cleric, who is creating an artifact, under the will and blessing of his god. You have decided to take the god's challenge. This is not "solving a problem" it is a self imposed situation between you and that god. Suggesting that your little augury spell is going to help you out is feeble at best. Unless of course you are a 21st lvl cleric of an opposing god perhaps. :-) But I agree, the idea is pretty silly. ---Edit --- Woops.. that is CL 20 as in Caster level 20... my bad, but it is still an artifact and it is still Lvl 20, and I still think augury has no chance of deciding or helping.. but your milage may varry. --- end edit ---
BeyondFated 09-21-05, 01:59 PM	He has a good point.. you are not trying to solve a problem, you are trying to outwit a god. The creator or forger of a DoMT is a 20th lvl or higher Cleric, who is creating an artifact, under the will and blessing of his god. You have decided to take the god's challenge. This is not "solving a problem" it is a self imposed situation between you and that god. Suggesting that your little augury spell is going to help you out is feeble at best. Unless of course you are a 21st lvl cleric of an opposing god perhaps. :-) But I agree, the idea is pretty silly. How do you know that a cleric forged the DoMT? Perhaps it was a wizard, but I could be wrong.
Darien_CR 09-21-05, 02:08 PM	Show me where it says that in the SRD. Are you trying to imply that low-level magic is useless for solving big problems? I've seen dragons (with crappy reflex saves and unable to fly) laid low by a handy Grease spell. Show me where it says that the DoMT is immune to the effects of Augury. I for one think its a great form of "damage control" for such a potentially nasty artifact. Besides, you're forgetting the "nothing" result players could get. if they draw on nothing, its a crap shoot. From the SRD: Artifacts are extremely powerful. Rather than merely another form of magic equipment, they are the sorts of legendary relics that whole campaigns can be based on. Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device. It is also likely to attract the attention of some powerful being if you cheat with an artifact. Also, the SRD isn't the most important thing to consider here. Common sense is. D&D is not a videogame in which you can cheat like that, the DM is (in most cases) human, and his or her opinion is what counts. Don't forget rule 0. Leave words like COMBO for the MTG boards. And by the way, by "I use the DoMT a lot in my campaigns" I mean it appears once in most of my campaigns, usually the PCs don't draw any card, or one of them draws 1 card, or each one draws a card.
glennhefley 09-21-05, 02:27 PM	Personally I've always considered the Deck of Many Things to be the creation of a God looking for a means of Natural Selection in a magical world :D the last poster has a good point to. As a DM I might allow the use of augury. No, let me rephrase that.. I would definitely allow the PC to use augury, because 90% of the time I always allow the PC's to come up with something and use their ideas. My job as the DM is to balance the world and run the game, not to limit problem solving or say "You can't cast augury".. of course you can cast it, the spell is right there on your list! After the PC comes up with the idea and actully does it, I pull out the description of Artifacts, the Deck of Many Things and Auguray. Since the DoMT is made by different gods or powerful beings (hence the different types .. Ivory or something's skin) I make a quick list of powerful beings and roll to see "who done it" and see what they might do about it. Some powerful beings might think "Hey, that was a good idea.. Gawd bless them. You go rogue, go!".. other's of a more lawful evil nature might be a little upset at the audacity of the PC, and change all of the cards to "you go to a level of hell where a demon eats your essence for a thousand years and then you truly die." The real point here is that nothing in D&D happens in a vacuum. The game continues, there are powers at work you can not possibly understand, and there is always a dragon that isn't going to be tripped up by your little grease spell. (what kind of dragon was that anyway? I could use a new throw rug.)
Draco Strang 09-21-05, 02:49 PM	From the SRD: Artifacts are extremely powerful. Rather than merely another form of magic equipment, they are the sorts of legendary relics that whole campaigns can be based on. Destroying artifacts is a dangerous business, and it is 95% likely to attract the attention of some powerful being who has an interest in or connection with the device. It is also likely to attract the attention of some powerful being if you cheat with an artifact. Also, the SRD isn't the most important thing to consider here. Common sense is. D&D is not a videogame in which you can cheat like that, the DM is (in most cases) human, and his or her opinion is what counts. Don't forget rule 0. Leave words like COMBO for the MTG boards. Ok...if you destroy an artifact you'll attract a lot of extraplanar attention. Doesn't say that using a little divination to see what's right around the corner will. The shuffling point that was brought up is a good one. You can still use it on the first card, at any rate.
Spike_Fightwicky 09-21-05, 02:58 PM	From the Augury spell: If the augury succeeds, you get one of four results: Weal (if the action will probably bring good results). Woe (for bad results). Weal and woe (for both). Nothing (for actions that don’t have especially good or bad results). The act of drawing a card has an equal possibility of bringing either a good or a bad result. So can you not just say "Weal and Woe" for all auguries since you have a 50/50 chance of drawing a good or bad card? The fact that Weal says "action will probably bring good results" should make it clear that you won't get a 100% answer from augury. A player in a game of mine auguried to find out if it would be a good or bad idea to wander through a flooded mine to find out the cause of the flooding (it was an aboleth's sinister plot). He succeeded got Woe and dead fish emerged from the water to further prove the point. The most likely course of action was that the aboleth would kill the lone character, but it's always possible that the aboleth could lose.
LostTemplar 09-21-05, 03:12 PM	My solution would be simple. :D That spell usage would indeed reveal if the effect was good or bad. But it would be nulled afterwards, and simply shuffled back into the deck. Afterall, it was like taking the card and reading it, but without its effects. Simple really.
Sulaco 09-21-05, 03:24 PM	The act of drawing a card has an equal possibility of bringing either a good or a bad result. So can you not just say "Weal and Woe" for all auguries since you have a 50/50 chance of drawing a good or bad card? Yup, that pretty much sums it up for me: - The spell indicates whether an action you will take will have a positive or negative result. - Drawing from the DoMT always has an even chance of either. - Thus the spell should always reveal that there is an even chance of a good or bad result. Simple, no?
Phrennzy 09-21-05, 03:26 PM	The shuffling point that was brought up is a good one. Not really. The DoMT says that you can take an hour in between drawing cards. So you cast Augury, draw the card, then cast it again, and draw another card. Everyone hemming and hawwing and saying "This is how I would defeat the Augury use" are using houserules. The DM arbitration is a house rule. RAW, you can use Augury to know what the next card will bring, Woe or Weal. It doesn't make sense, but that's RAW for you. Myself, I'd calmly state that it's an artifact (minor though it may be) and that the chances that it was created by any sane god is slim, and that any artifact created by an insane or chaotic good is going to have a failsafe against divination, espeically divination of the 2nd level nature. That's how we ROLL, playas! Ya know...somehow I'm able to read the tone of that statement perfectly, despite the lack of smileys and the fact that we've never had a face to face conversation. We connect on such a spiritual level...
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-21-05, 03:44 PM	This is stupid! The Deck of Many Things is an artifact for god's sake! It is not affected by low-level magic such as Augury or Hypnotism. 1. Who's hypnotizing thier DoMT? 2.: You cast Dimension Door, your Dwarven Glow Stone clatters to the ground you once stood on.
Bane 09-21-05, 04:38 PM	The shuffling point that was brought up is a good one. Not really. The DoMT says that you can take an hour in between drawing cards. So you cast Augury, draw the card, then cast it again, and draw another card. Unfortunately, you have to decide how many cards you want to draw before you take the first one, and can't choose to stop drawing. So the second Augury is useless, except for telling you approximately what to expect. If it's weal, fine. If it's woe, then do things to minimize the woe you will receive (buffing in case you get the Dread Wraith, giving someone else your worldly possessions so they don't get erased, that sort of thing). This can backfire, however, if you give all your stuff to someone else, then the Wraith shows up.
glennhefley 09-21-05, 05:40 PM	The card takes effect as soon as you draw it, and then you place it back in the deck and reshuffle, so there isn't anything you can do like "give away your stuff" to prepare, other than what you did before you drew the card.
Draco Strang 09-21-05, 05:42 PM	We connect on such a spiritual level... Or could it be the fact that I've got Skill Focus (Handle Animal) with particular emphasis on ponies?
tiercel 09-21-05, 06:35 PM	Everyone hemming and hawwing and saying "This is how I would defeat the Augury use" are using houserules.Incorrect. Apparently you missed the part where I pointed out that the DoMT isn't necessarily shuffled. Those that insist on shuffling the DoMT are, in fact, using a houserule. An extremely reasonable one implied by the very nature of the DoMT, but nowhere in the RAW is it stated that the DoMT is shuffled or otherwise randomized. This is perhaps an absurdly literal stance to take, but not different in kind than insisting that augury must work on the DoMT because nowhere in the RAW is it stated that the DoMT is not subject to divinations.
VirgilCaine 09-21-05, 09:19 PM	Not really. The DoMT says that you can take an hour in between drawing cards. So you cast Augury, draw the card, then cast it again, and draw another card. Everyone hemming and hawwing and saying "This is how I would defeat the Augury use" are using houserules. The DM arbitration is a house rule. RAW, you can use Augury to know what the next card will bring, Woe or Weal. It doesn't make sense, but that's RAW for you. Myself, I'd calmly state that it's an artifact (minor though it may be) and that the chances that it was created by any sane god is slim, and that any artifact created by an insane or chaotic good is going to have a failsafe against divination, espeically divination of the 2nd level nature. That's how we ROLL, playas! I don't use the Deck of Many Things at all. That's how I ROLL.
Manic Man 09-21-05, 11:54 PM	Incorrect. Apparently you missed the part where I pointed out that the DoMT isn't necessarily shuffled. Those that insist on shuffling the DoMT are, in fact, using a houserule. "Each time a card is taken from the deck, it is replaced (making it possible to draw the same card twice)" It can be said that how the card is replaced is up to the DM, whether to put it at the end, slot it into the middle, place it at the top or place it anywhere and shuffle. This means that the rules as written requires the DM to select some sort of action -> which would mean that it is not a houserule at all by RAW
Manic Man 09-22-05, 12:13 AM	By all-knowing, I mean "able to divine anything outside of the player's control that he might ask" There is no such thing as pre-determined personal destiny in D&D. Every die-roll could change everything and nothing at the same time. Not so with asking if the next card is bad, if there will be rain tomorrow, or if opening that door will lead you to treasure or trolls. Those are black and white, straight answers. So cast augury multiple times, asking if each successive card will be good or bad. If you get two weals and then a woe, announce that you'll draw two. Simple So lets say you draw the comet (Defeat next monster to gain 1 level). Is that weal or woe? Is it outside the player's control? As you yourself has stated all-knowing as "able to divine anything outside of the player's control that he might ask", and the fact that the card is replaced, how would you answer your successive cards? Next we have to ask, assuming the deck was drawn before prior to the PCs, replacement of the card would be at the DM's leisure. When he wants to replace the card is up to him. Why would he be required to replace the card before the players draw. Does the rules state so?
Draco Strang 09-22-05, 12:40 AM	So lets say you draw the comet (Defeat next monster to gain 1 level). Is that weal or woe? Is it outside the player's control? That card has a positive outcome. Assuming you fail, you don't lose a level or any equipment. If you're getting your ass beat, your party can step in and save the day. That card is most certainly "Weal". As you yourself has stated all-knowing as "able to divine anything outside of the player's control that he might ask", and the fact that the card is replaced, how would you answer your successive cards? I must admit, I'm a little confused by the last part of your question. It could be because I'm really friggin tired and will be doing homework all night while posting here. Please explain? Next we have to ask, assuming the deck was drawn before prior to the PCs, replacement of the card would be at the DM's leisure. When he wants to replace the card is up to him. Why would he be required to replace the card before the players draw. Does the rules state so? The entry says that once the card is drawn, it is replaced, thus making it possible to draw the same card twice. That (to me at least) pretty clearly states that a card is just instantly replaced when you draw it (save the jester or fool, which is explicitly stated). That means that replacement of the cards (which is automatic) isn't at the DM's leisure.
howlingwolf 09-22-05, 04:14 AM	This can only be solved by altering the fundamental properties of a magical artifact. Swap one of the cards for the, 'OMG' card. Always drawn after any divination attempts on the deck, it displays a barely legible scrawl that can be only roughly translated at, 'ZOMGHAXLOLOLOL' in some crude language. Drawer is smacked on the nose with a giant newspaper and loses 10,000XP. :gah:
Spike_Fightwicky 09-22-05, 12:05 PM	I still don't see how Augury is an "Auto-good draw" from the deck. PC uses augury: What happens if I draw a card? Answer: "Weal and Woe" (The player may draw a good card, the player may draw a bad card. Those are the odds on winning with a deck of many things. Is this cheating? No. Augury gives probabilities on possible outcomes of a scenario. The outcome of drawing a card is a 50/50 chance of being good or bad. If the PC uses augury and asks how a fight against an equally skilled party will go, he will get "Weal and Woe". 50/50 chance of a TPK on either side) That card has a positive outcome. Assuming you fail, you don't lose a level or any equipment. If you're getting your ass beat, your party can step in and save the day. That card is most certainly "Weal". Wouldn't the PC have to ask: "What happens if I draw the Comet card?" Answer: "Weal" (The PC can now find out which cards are good and which are bad) _____________ The augury doesn't tap "the all knowing fountain of knowledge that is the DM". It uses magic to find out the most probable outcome of a course of action. It's all up to interperetation, but don't say the DM is cheating because he interpererates it differently than you do.
Man in the Funny Hat 09-23-05, 11:54 PM	No house rules should be necessary for handling the DOMT and the Augury spell. The spell REQUIRES a certain amount of arbitrary interference on the part of the DM. Consider what happens if you cast it before opening a dungeon door - would it be good or bad? Weal/woe? The DM has to look at what's behind the door, what the consequences could be -OR- what they MIGHT be if the door is opened, if the results could be mixed, or if there is even any effect at all. If the door simply leads to an empty room the result of opening the door is "Nothing". Neither a good/weal result or a bad/woe result. This is possible with the deck - that nothing really positive or negative will result as the effects can actually cancel each other out such as lose 10,000xp and then gain 10,000xp. You could draw from the deck and get the card that causes you to lose all magic items but not have any magic items to lose in the first place. You could draw and get a really bad result but then use the "avoid a situation once" result from a previous draw to invalidate the bad result. The Augury spell, in addition to having a "failure" chance outright, can't exceed what the DM himself knows will, or could happen. Its description states that a question could be so vague that the DM can decide that the spell has no chance of success. The DM is NOT required to PREDETERMINE all possibilities in order to make the spell work. In essence, it is an in-game means of meta-gaming for the player. It allows the player, through his character, to effectively ask the DM, "Is this really a good idea or am I just asking to get whacked?" It's a request for a free clue. The DM is thus up to his eyeballs in providing an arbitrary decision regarding the response for this spell. So, if the DM simply cannot make a reasonable guess as to whether a given action will be good/bad/both/neither he is within rights - according to the very description of the spell - to say that it simply fails. If the action being proposed by a character actually has a RANDOMLY determined result, and in particular if the outcome will hinge on ADDITIONAL choices made by the player and ADDITIONAL randomly determined results there simply is no possible way for the DM to even BEGIN to make an accurate guess at the ultimate outcome and whether the character will consider it good or bad. Now, with the DOMT you're dealing with an ARTIFACT. Something that the DMG plainly indicates should not just be thrown into a campaign without due consideration. In other words, the very presence of the DOMT in a campaign is an arbitrary DM decision. Add to that the fact that its very function in game terms is random [indeed, nothing will ever happen until the character FIRST states that he will draw cards - and how many cards - and then the results are effectively unavoidable as well as upredictable (or so I would think would be obvious). Add to that the fact that its inherent design and intent in campaign-design terms is random results that are generally extreme. Add to that the fact that the Augury spell cannot take into consideration the long-term results of intended actions. Add to that the fact that the Augury spell will give the same results every time when it is the same person asking about the same topic - in other words, you can't use the spell to determine if drawing ONE card would be good but drawing TWO cards might be bad. Using the Divination spell instead of Augury is no better, and in fact states, "In all cases, the DM controls what information you receive. If your party doesn't act on the information, the conditions may change so that the information is no longer useful." This certainly would apply to the use of the DOMT because it requires random determination of results only AFTER the character declares it WILL be used and precisely how many cards will be drawn - and then it doesn't even matter if the character tries to NOT draw additional cards that he said he would because the cards will pop out of the deck on their own and the results applied to the character. Though it doesn't say so in the DOMT description it is clear that divination magic just isn't useful, except perhaps in a general sense to inform the PC's that the outcome IS random - and therefore BY DEFINITION unable to be predetermined by divination spells. We're talking about a mere 2nd level spell being used to avoid the inherent dangers DESIGNED AND INTENDED for a minor ARTIFACT. It doesn't require an official, definitive answer - it requires a sensible DM. IMO.
Khelvaster 09-24-05, 12:14 AM	I believe it says in the DMG that divination spells don't work with the deck of many things or olidamarra's dice.