Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shiftkitty 01-18-08, 03:25 PM	Okay. Friday night ended with a PC gatting swallowed whole by a Dire Shark. She had no slashing weapon to get herself out with. In fact. most of the party had but bludgeoning and piercing weapons. Only the wizard had a dagger. At 1d4+2 dmg, with the shark already dead but stomach acids not yet neutralized, she took a total of 87 points of damage from her original 107. The PC is very vain about her appearance and the player wants to know how her looks have been affected. Her personality was overbearing-gosh-aren't-I-a-goddess? because of her looks (which the player described as no big deal in reality, but she had an over inlated image of herself). I've seen pictures of a partially digested human body being pulled out of an alligator. Reminded me of Iron Maiden's mascot, Eddy. What sort of lasting effects, looks or otherwise, might come about from this? I imagine she's now pretty ugly, and her player might twist her personality depending on how bad a hit her CHA takes from the appearance factor alone. How would you guys call it? (The party is resting up from miscellaneous damage, so even if her hit points return her looks are sure to be history. Guess what party didn't list healing potions in their inventory? Oops!*) *Rogue: Ah sh*t! Look at her face! Get me a potion over here. Barbarian: Where'd you put the potion bag? Rogue: Ask Reya. Reya (wizard): I don't have it. I thought you had it. Rogue: Me? I told one of you guys to grab it. Barbarian: All I grabbed was my axe. I travel light. Reya: It was on the bed in your room back at the inn. Rogue: Awwwww sh**!!!!!!! Cleric (mumbling through melted lips): Wurngwmyfsss? Gzzz? WURNGWMYFSSS?
Awesome_Dude 01-18-08, 03:29 PM	She should be fully healed with healing spells. Lowering her Charisma without the player's consent will result in serious arguments at best, real life TPK at worst.
MacrossSD 01-18-08, 03:31 PM	AwesomeDude: The OP (if I read the post correctly) said that the PC was in on it, and wanted to know if there were any hits to CHA from being in there as an RP tool. And I'm not sure CLW would prevent scarification, otherwise, how would characters with ritual scarring (for, for instance, class abilities) keep those scars if they went away with a cure spell? I'm not sure there ARE rules for that situation, but this is where the "quick-n-dirty" AD&D "make it up as we go along" ethic comes to the rescue :) I'd say, as a ballpark, make it something like 1 point of Cha damage for every round the PC was in there (with the damage not falling below 1 CHA).
celestialkin 01-18-08, 03:35 PM	I remember that there were rules for disfigurements and similar things in the Book of Vile Darkness. I am not 100% sure it might be what you are looking for, but at least it might be a good place to get ideas from. p.s. this is usually the point when that genuinely nice "friend" you never really noticed or paid any attention to starts seeming a whole lot better. :P
Awesome_Dude 01-18-08, 03:53 PM	AwesomeDude: The OP (if I read the post correctly) said that the PC was in on it, and wanted to know if there were any hits to CHA from being in there as an RP tool. I still wouldn't reduce her Charisma. Charisma is not dependent on looks. Twist her personality, sure. And I'm not sure CLW would prevent scarification, otherwise, how would characters with ritual scarring (for, for instance, class abilities) keep those scars if they went away with a cure spell? You explained it yourself with the word I bolded. Rituals in D&D are usually magical in nature and you could probably use magic to ensure scarring.
Zombie_Babies 01-18-08, 03:55 PM	Cha is not a measure of looks. It is force of personality. No Cha dmg, IMO. Any magical healing would take care of any wounds well enough to prevent scarring as well. If you want to go this direction try bringing back the Comeliness score and go from there. There is nothing saying you can't add a stat and it could be fun. This way there is a more accurate gauge of appearance and you can get into the "what would acid/fire/whatever do to your looks?". Once you start hitting stats for acid you will open the door for more. What happens when you eat 60 from a maximized Fireball? No scarring from that? Or what about a Greataxe crit to the dome? No scars there? This is kind of a slippery slope... Still, adding (re-adding) a Comeliness score would take care of this situation beautifully.
celestialkin 01-18-08, 04:02 PM	I still wouldn't reduce her Charisma. Charisma is not dependent on looks. Twist her personality, sure. Well, Shiftkitty could implement the 7th stat from the Book of Erotic Fantasy (hey, some of that stuff is actually useful) which is Attractiveness. If I remember correctly this score is mainly used instead of Charisma when a situation is highly dependent on the character's physical looks and "appeal". So she would use ATT instead of CHA if she were trying to seduce a guard with diplomacy, but would use CHA if she were trying to negotiating with a guard to let her pass (by a bribe, making him feel it's for the "good of the people", etc) with diplomacy. Basically her charisma would be her force of personality, while her attractiveness would be how breathtaking or drop-dead gorgeous she is.
Naderion 01-18-08, 04:10 PM	A penalty to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks might be appropiate (and also a bonus to Intimidate checks :D), since it does not impede the persons force of will or his ability to lead others. Certain people COULD suffer a charisma penalty, if they feel like being completely disfigured and they are ugly and nobody would ever want to talk to them and such emo stuff. But the same goes for warriors who lose a hand or wizards who go blind.
Shiftkitty 01-18-08, 04:26 PM	Wow. This isn't as straightforward as I thought. I had forgotten about the Comeliness stat (which I assume is the same as the Attractiveness stat). I always figured CHA summed up both physical attractiveness and "Nice personality" blind-dates. I suppose that, due to the psychological hit of losing her self-determined knockout looks, I could penalize things like Diplomacy and other skills that rely on making someone agreeable towards you. (I like the bonus to Initimidate!) I could keep that in effect with a one or two point knock to the actual CHA score until magical healing is found. As a cleric, how much healing could she do to herself, and should I make her wait until she makes a Willpower DC25 save to overcome self-pity and take action? The PC is played as very vain, and wallowing in despair over something like this is perfectly within character. The session ended with her in the midst of an emotional breakdown over her disfigurement (Book of Vile Darkness, eh? Gotta root through it!).
Silverthumb 01-18-08, 04:32 PM	Cha is not a measure of looks. There's really nothing more to be said about it past this. Comeliness is a good point, however, that's not used in the standard 3.5 game.
Zombie_Babies 01-18-08, 04:43 PM	Shiftkitty: You could just let her, I dunno, RP it. If she is that invested in her looks and the player is already making her char have a breakdown just let her play it out. Whenever she uses a skill like Diplomacy or Bluff just see how she RPs it. Remind her that her char is very broken up about her looks and possibly assign some sort of ad hoc penalty. Possibly. I say this because her personality has obviously been effected. However, not all NPCs are going to be bothered by scarring. They see it often enough, after all. Any penalties should only be assessed for reasons pertaining to the char's mental state. Hell, she may not even want to use a Cha based skill for a while- being too embarrassed to talk to people in her current physical state. The reason I am so hesitant in regard to assigning penalties is that this will come up a lot more often than being swallowed alive. My aforementioned Fireball/Greataxe examples should demonstrate this. This could lead to a ton of extra bookkeeping and random penalty assessments. Not fun. Just let her RP it and bring back Comeliness (I am going to vote to bring it back in our next game, too- it's fun!). And also let her get her looks back. Sounds like a player generated plot hook to me. :)
Tequila_Sunrise 01-18-08, 04:50 PM	Wow. This isn't as straightforward as I thought. I had forgotten about the Comeliness stat (which I assume is the same as the Attractiveness stat). I always figured CHA summed up both physical attractiveness and "Nice personality" blind-dates. I suppose that, due to the psychological hit of losing her self-determined knockout looks, I could penalize things like Diplomacy and other skills that rely on making someone agreeable towards you. (I like the bonus to Initimidate!) I could keep that in effect with a one or two point knock to the actual CHA score until magical healing is found. As a cleric, how much healing could she do to herself, and should I make her wait until she makes a Willpower DC25 save to overcome self-pity and take action? The PC is played as very vain, and wallowing in despair over something like this is perfectly within character. The session ended with her in the midst of an emotional breakdown over her disfigurement (Book of Vile Darkness, eh? Gotta root through it!). As a cleric, she should be able to patch herself up as good (or as annoying) as new. But then again, maybe her temporary scarification affects her confidence, which affects her magic, which leaves her with scars even after she heals herself. But that all should be the choice of the player. The point is, there are no rules for any of this (at least in most games) because there doesn't need to be. If the player wants a penalty to Cha, that's fine but unnecessary. If she wants to change her character's personality as a result of this experience, she doesn't need a stat change as an excuse to do so. If she later wants to go back to being confident, why make her roll a Wis check? There's a reason D&D is called a role playing game, rather than a roll playing game.
Zombie_Babies 01-18-08, 05:02 PM	As a cleric, she should be able to patch herself up as good (or as annoying) as new. But then again, maybe her temporary scarification affects her confidence, which affects her magic, which leaves her with scars even after she heals herself. But that all should be the choice of the player. The point is, there are no rules for any of this (at least in most games) because there doesn't need to be. If the player wants a penalty to Cha, that's fine but unnecessary. If she wants to change her character's personality as a result of this experience, she doesn't need a stat change as an excuse to do so. If she later wants to go back to being confident, why make her roll a Wis check? There's a reason D&D is called a role playing game, rather than a roll playing game. There is an FR story about a cleric of Sune (Adon , methink) who lost his clericness when he was scarred. He couldn't remove his curse and believed Sune forsook him. He became a cleric of Mystra and only when he realized it was his shaken faith and not Sune that prevented his unscarrification did he gain the ability to remove it. However, he decided against doing so as the scar had come to define him. Off topic? Yes. Oh well... :(
toucanbuzz 01-18-08, 05:32 PM	D&D does not account for detailed damage to body parts or realistic hits that might ruin charisma absent a specific rule that actually says "charisma damaged." It is a BAD idea to dock a person ability points permanently for damage. Imagine how many scars a person gets from the constant stream of combats, or fire damage, or frost damage, or any number of things that in REAL LIFE would cause permanent damage to appearance and physical prowess. This is a FANTASY world, and as such, it does not account for these details as players would swiftly be saddled with ugliness, crippled appendages, and brain damage. Don't do it. Let her heal and be done with it. It will take a long time and some poultices, but she'll be fine.
TrackStar 01-18-08, 05:55 PM	This one is easy, she should GAIN charisma because scars add character! :D
JulesCARV 01-18-08, 06:07 PM	Perhaps the character could gain the UA "abrasive" trait -- -1 to diplomacy and bluff, +1 to intimidate.
sblaxman 01-19-08, 01:11 AM	Yeah, it's been summed up pretty well above me... in game terms, charisma only refers to personality, it has no measure taken from physicality. You could houserule a skill effect if the player agreed to it, but I wouldn't force it on them. Total scaring like that would definatly put a twist on RPing, and could be fun. Unless they changed it from 2e, the CW line of spells does not heal scars, it just closes wounds at best... it would take a heal or restoration spell to remove that damage.
Shiftkitty 01-19-08, 06:54 PM	Okay, I think RPing it should do well enough. Thanks for the help! I think my players are frustrated actors. They RP very well, and during an online chat I secretly informed the others that her scars looked perfectly healable, that she was looking at temporary disfigurement at best. I didn't tell her that, of course, so the PC is still being played as inconsolable, especially with one PC using THIS tactful line: "I didn't know how to tell you this before, but you weren't that hot looking to begin with." (He's got a somewhat low CHA, which he decided was best reflected in frequently saying the wrong thing at the wrong time.) As far as scars from combat go, they can be RPed as well, now that I recall. An old PC went through quite a few sessions with an arrow head sticking out of his forhead. It didn't go in far enough to affect his brain (he claimed, but he played his character as a little "off" ever since), but it went in so far that removing it to heal the wound was too risky, so he had them heal around it. His character never had to buy his own drinks again, although he was barred from wearing helmets of any sort.
Ikeman04 01-19-08, 08:10 PM	I realize I came in a little late, but I'd say that if the scarringwas significant enough to causelots of psychological damage, then maybe a penalty of -2 or -4 would be appropriate as the character's self-image was drastically changed, but I'd eliminate the penalty as the character either comes to trms with her new looks or gets the number of a good plastic surgeon.
Ariakus 01-21-08, 09:11 AM	They need to bring "comeliness" back, because Charisma is Charm, not looks. To be Charismatic you only need to B.S. really well, look at Ronald Reagan :D He was fugly but ran a good speech.
sblaxman 01-21-08, 03:18 PM	They need to bring "comeliness" back, because Charisma is Charm, not looks. To be Charismatic you only need to B.S. really well, look at Ronald Reagan :D He was fugly but ran a good speech. Well, yeah... the old books used hitler as the example of 18 CHA... he wasn't a pretty man but was able to get a while country behind him
Awesome_Dude 01-21-08, 03:21 PM	Well, yeah... the old books used hitler as the example of 18 CHA So Godwin's Law is not only confined to threads on forums.
JulesCARV 01-21-08, 04:37 PM	Personally, I think that it depends on character concept. Physical attractiveness can be part of charisma, but needn't be. Just as one person with 16 int might be really great at mathematics but incapable of writing prose with any elegance, while another person might be the opposite, one person with 16 cha might be a pudgy, balding guy with brilliant sense of humor and charm who always has a witty comeback within a tenth of a second of the sort that other people only think of hours later, while another person with 16 cha could be extremely beautiful and self-confident, while another might be a terrifyingly cold, callous, impuslively brutal, and even monstrous to the point where people are shaken merely by his presence. (Of course, not all such people are charismatic, but I'm talking about a charismatically horrifying one.) In another case, it could be someone who isn't particularly witty or charming or beautiful, but who has complete courage of her convictions, and never doubts what she knows is right -- that can be a kind of charisma: I imagine it's a common type among paladins. Similarly, for low charisma, being uncharismatic could mean being very shy and insecure to the point where you're afraid of talking to anyone, or it could mean being extremely self-confident to the point of boorish abrasiveness, having no sense when you're getting into other people's personal space, and being oblivious to when people drop "hints" that they're sick of talking to you. In short, charisma scores mean something, but I think that what they mean specifically (whether high charisma is terrifying and repulsive or awe-inspiring and attractive, for instance) is best left to the specific character concept. In short, conceptual flexibility is good :). That said, ordinary hit point damage (from acid or not) shouldn't deal charisma damage. Even if physical attractiveness is an aspect of charisma for this specific character concept, HP damage doesn't work that way in D&D, unless you also want to say that someone with only 1/3rd of his hit points left thanks to being shot with arrows should also have a lower constitution score and be able to run shorter distances thanks to having lost a few pints of blood. It makes sense, I suppose, and some systems might deal with it, but usually that's not D&D's approach.
Tema69 01-21-08, 04:48 PM	I'd impose a penalty to roleplaying-related checks when confronted with NPCs who might be shocked by an acidburned face. For example, an Orc Berserker might not be affected by it, he might even think that it's cool, since he has survived it, while an elf noble might be completely nauseated by the mere sight. So for the Cha penalties, I'd keep it a roleplaying element. You might want to look at some Cha penalty related flaws/traits from Unearthed Arcana. So, anything between +1 (Orc berserker) to -6 (Elf nobleman) to such checks. But that's just me.
High Octane 01-21-08, 07:12 PM	So Godwin's Law is not only confined to threads on forums. I am sick of people misunderstanding or misquoting Godwin's Law. Godwin's Law is not when Hitler is first mentioned, it is when one of the posters refers to one of the other POSTERS as being Hitler, hitler-like, or some derivative such as nazi, or saying "that is what Hitler would do so you are wrong." At any rate, I wouldn't start with the scarring affecting charisma or diplomacy thing, because once you go down that road, you ask why does acid cause scarring, but a fireball does not. If there was realistic scarring in D&D, 20th level characters would be a giant scar walking around with shiny gold armor. Scars should only appear in one situation: If it would be cooler if they did. "Yeah I got this giant scar on my face from fighting the pirate lord Johannus. He scarred my face, I skewered his heart."
sblaxman 01-21-08, 07:47 PM	So Godwin's Law is not only confined to threads on forums. Not really, I was citing a text, not comparing someone to hitler... DMG, page 15 (1st edition 1979)... "Many persons have the sad misconception that charisma is merely physical attractiveness. This error is obvious to any person who considers the subject with perceptiveness...True Charisma becomes evident when one considers such historic examples of Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, and Adolf Hitler. Obviously these individuals did not have an 18 score in physical beauty, so it is quite possible to assume that scores are possible, for any one of the named historical personalities would have had a higher charisma score -- there can be no question that these individuals were 18's--- if they would have had great attractiveness as well as commanding personal magnetism and superb persuasiveness" Yes... I still have the 1st ed books around...
Awesome_Dude 01-21-08, 10:26 PM	I am sick of people misunderstanding or misquoting Godwin's Law. Godwin's Law is not when Hitler is first mentioned, it is when one of the posters refers to one of the other POSTERS as being Hitler, hitler-like, or some derivative such as nazi, or saying "that is what Hitler would do so you are wrong." Yeah, comparison to Hitler. "18 Charisma doesn't necessarily mean you look good. You know who had 18 Charisma? Hitler." That's a comparison involving Hitler. You failed hard for not getting it. Godwin's Law is a meme, not an actual rule, so variations of it will, and are supposed to, exist.
Awesome_Dude 01-21-08, 10:36 PM	Not really, I was citing a text, not comparing someone to hitler... DMG, page 15 (1st edition 1979)... "Many persons have the sad misconception that charisma is merely physical attractiveness. This error is obvious to any person who considers the subject with perceptiveness...True Charisma becomes evident when one considers such historic examples of Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte, and Adolf Hitler. Obviously these individuals did not have an 18 score in physical beauty, so it is quite possible to assume that scores are possible, for any one of the named historical personalities would have had a higher charisma score -- there can be no question that these individuals were 18's--- if they would have had great attractiveness as well as commanding personal magnetism and superb persuasiveness" Okay, cool. Yes... I still have the 1st ed books around... Be proud, man. Never give them up.
sblaxman 01-21-08, 11:09 PM	I know I know, just defending that I wasn't bringing up hitler, gygax beat me to it (and pre-dated the meme) :D plus I wanted to add nepoleon but couldn't remember how to spell his name (messed it up again)
nameneeded 01-22-08, 12:03 AM	In the past my group ruled that Magical healing healed with no scarring. But natural healling left scars. Magical healing does not heal scars as they are not damage. So as long as she is magically healed before any natural healing occurs. If some occurs then maybe some sort of modifiers for some skills and encounters. Maybe even some CHR loss if u feel its warrented. IMO. :D
sblaxman 01-22-08, 12:08 AM	Magical healing does not heal scars as they are not damage. Curious on how you would rule regenerations effect then, would you allow it to heal scars? Could it re-grow a limb if it was scarred over? I have no problem w/ healing magic closing wounds sans scars (it does make things cleaning and neater), just wondering if regen was 'outside' of that rule or not. It's a topic of mild debate, I've always rules that the CW does leave scars, and Regen will heal all wounds (scars included), but only for a willing target. The player can choose if he wants a scar to heal or not. If he has scars on his face and likes them there, or tattoos on his arm, and gets regened, the will stay if he desires... if he wants them gone, regen will heal them.
Ariakus 01-22-08, 07:55 AM	Frankly I see anyone bringing up such a "law" fails hard,for two reasons: #1 you are quoting a law or rule that does not exist, so it is not fact, and does not help your argument by bringing up mythological rules, #2 Hitler is comparable to many things, so it is very simple to bring him up in nearly any conversation, making such a rule illogical. If there was realistic scarring in D&D, 20th level characters would be a giant scar walking around with shiny gold armor. Scars should only appear in one situation: If it would be cooler if they did. "Yeah I got this giant scar on my face from fighting the pirate lord Johannus. He scarred my face, I skewered his heart." I totally agree. There would be no flesh left at high levels, you would be a walking skeleton just from the Fireball trap the halfling thief set off at 5th level... The definition from Wiki of charisma is: The word charisma (from the Greek word χάρισμα (kharisma), "gift" or "divine favor," from kharizesthai, "to favor," from kharis, "favor": see also charism, Charis) refers to a rare trait found in certain human personalities usually including extreme charm and a 'magnetic' quality of personality and/or appearance along with innate and powerfully sophisticated personal communicability and persuasiveness. And has little to do with your looks unless you're really ugly but have a helluva sense of humor or something similar, but, you could be offensive to someone as Tema69 stated...if you use the scarring rules (which I believe are total house rules), an elf noble may be disgusted by your looks from scarring, but an orc would pat you on the back and say, "Nice scar, where'd ya get it?"
Awesome_Dude 01-22-08, 01:01 PM	Frankly I see anyone bringing up such a "law" fails hard,for two reasons: #1 you are quoting a law or rule that does not exist, so it is not fact, and does not help your argument by bringing up mythological rules, #2 Hitler is comparable to many things, so it is very simple to bring him up in nearly any conversation, making such a rule illogical. Godwin's Law is in no way to be taken serious. Ever. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) It's usually called out on a user making an argumentum ad hitlerum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum), a logical fallacy. Usually it goes something like this: Prima: "I think we need stronger anti-smoking campaigns. The ones we have now simply aren't working." Segunda: "Hitler was against smoking. Do you want to be like him?" Tercera: "Godwin's Law! You lose!" It's not exactly correct that you automatically lose if you compare someone to Hitler, but you haven't exactly made the winning argument by doing so (a soft way of saying that you are of dubious virtue as a person).
sblaxman 01-22-08, 03:22 PM	And thus me laughingly defending myself/gygax :D
Decoy_Lockbox 01-22-08, 05:15 PM	My group ran into this same problem when our DM decided to run a series of houserules that included hit locations, wound levels, severing limbs, etc. He completed the rules set, and then ran it by me for rules consistency. I noted that the -4 to charisma from a level 2 head wound was a bad idea, since it would unfairly penalize bards and sorcerors (already not the most potent of classes) more than the other classes. I suggested instead that a level 2 head wound should give a "-2 penalty to all interpersonal charisma-based checks", things like diplomacy, gather info, raw charisma checks etc. Anything where a scar actually would affect people's perception of you. Things like Use magic device and spellcasting for Cha-based spellcasters would remain unchanged.
High Octane 01-23-08, 12:40 AM	I remember reading Geomancers traits could include "You become as comely as a dryad (+4 on diplomacy checks)". I could assume horrific scarring could have a reverse affect. As Decoy said though, it shouldnt affect charisma directly. There is more to charisma than what people think of you. It's the stat sorcerers use to shape the fabric of reality (Which leads me to believe that apparantly Sorcerers TALK reality into doing what they want. "Pleeeeease turn this bat guano into a 20 foot radius inferno, pretty please?") I repeat my sentiment that was stated earlier however, that scarring should only happen when it adds to the game, through the fun factor or the cool factor.
sblaxman 01-23-08, 12:11 PM	I can see it effecting skills... you loose a hand you take a hit to your climb skill... you loose a leg you take a hit to your jump skill... you loose your face... you might take a hit to your diplomacy skill