Post/Author/DateTime	Post
White_Whale 11-28-07, 01:47 PM	Hi all! I have grown tired of most adventures leading the PCs by the nose down a pre-planned path. Instead I have been thinking about starting an adventure where the "path" is for the PCs to choose. My belief is that this would be more interesting and rewarding for both the players and the DM. Of course, this will require that the DM is good at improvising. Or maybe that the DM is given a few minutes to sketch out encounters and NPCs when they are about to occur. I was thinking of presenting a situation for the players, where they are free to solve it the way they want. More precisely, they are told that a hostile army is about to march to war against their country. Their mission is to delay this army by whatever means, so that their country have time to prepare for the war. Now, my questions are these: Have any of you done something similar? Can it be done?
CastTiltowait 11-28-07, 03:00 PM	RHoD tries, to a degree, to accomodate this. It has the big nasty army coming, and the party is free to try to figure out how to do so. There is the "hoped for course" that is the one most likely to lead to the party's success, but they don't necessarily have to follow that path. The designers even included a number of more likely "what ifs" that some players could take, like if the party decides to try to assassinate the generals early on, and the consequences if the characters don't do certain actions. They also use a system of "Victory Points" from one of the books (Heroes of Battle maybe?) to help decide the final outcome of all their actions. There's many ways to earn these points, helping reduce the linear nature of it. Is it completely non-linear? Absolutely not, but some of the elements that it uses could be useful. Some of the people in the RHoD threads have mentioned needing to give their players a lot of clues to lead them in the right direction since the non-linear elements confuse the players more used to riding the plot railroad to the next stop in the story.
SupaTalka 11-29-07, 03:24 PM	This won't work. The ideal adventure is where your party does not know they are doing a planned out adventure. You do not have to railroad. Simply find out what they want to do, and incorporate that into the adventure you have planned. My PC's always choose what they want to do. Then there are consequences as a result of that. You took an extra three days to get from point A to point B? Story has changed. You did not press on into the dungeon, and instead waited an entire day to recover your spells? Uh oh, look at what found you outside! You go back in? What, all the bulky, heavy treasure is gone? Too bad! None of this is leading the party by their nose. Action and reaction. Consequences. Players go around breaking laws? Well, the townguard is going to come see them. They fight the guards? Uh oh, the mayor has called an emergency session of the town council and they have decided to hire mercenaries to deal with the party? Well, you could have made another choice. This is entirely free choice. You just have to understand that the game world does operate while the players are not interacting with it. If you can't think of at least 3 outcomes for every encounter combat or otherwise then you need more DM practice. You need a base storyline. You do NOT need to follow a script, however. Edit Down Here: If it helps, think of your session as one of two-things: 1) A Themepark, like Disney Land 2) Space Mountain, a ride in Disney Your game should operate like #1 and not like #2. The players are free to choose where they go and what they do to an extent. But they are adventurers, life is dangerous for them. You can tell your players there is a dragon cave 2 miles away, and they can go there, but it's a really poor decision to make. Too much of number 2 and your players feel like they are trapped on a roller-coaster, guided by the rails until the pre-determined ride is over. Too much of #1 and they do not ever actually DO anything. It's up to you as a DM to make them interested in the various rides that are available - how they get there can be entirely up to them.
toucanbuzz 11-29-07, 03:57 PM	Non-linear adventures are often called "event-based". As Supa stated, there is a consequence for letting events slide by, but you've got to have a plausible background that impacts the party. This can be an entire campaign or just a set of adventures. First, players generally aren't excited to show up to a table with nothing on the agenda. Free form "do what you want" will get pretty dry in a short while as folks shrug, wondering "is there a point to my being here?" Similarly, players will not appreciate being led by the nose and again wonder "is there a point to my making decisions?" As a metaphor, imagine setting an ornate chest with no apparent lock or hinges in front of the party. You don't tell them that they must open the chest or they will die. Chances are curiosity, greed, suspicion, or just a need to know will take over. The party may take several approaches to investigating and opening the chest. Your chest has to be a superb story plot line that is going to let the party freely approach it from various angles with a more funneled goal in mind. Awhile back I started a campaign with the party exiting a tavern only to overhear a man saying "two down, three to go" to his companion before both teleported away. Before them was a body, an exact twin of the party member. This hook got their attention immediately (weakness of this hook is that it placed too much emphasis on a single party member). They spent the next few adventures seeking knowledge. I had a pool of adventures with hooks, culminating in a dungeon crawl to a statue that would briefly answer a question posed to it (wherein I winged it). From there, I started the clock on a series of event based plots that ran independent to what the party did. The trick is to not tell the party they must do something (and then let them figure out a way to do it). The trick is to let the party come to that conclusion on their own. From there, the game is afoot.
nytemare3701 11-30-07, 04:36 AM	Your chest has to be a superb story plot line that is going to let the party freely approach it from various angles with a more funneled goal in mind. Taken out of context, that is a rather funny line. :P Maybe I just need sleep :pbbbtt:
White_Whale 11-30-07, 09:30 AM	Hi again guys! First I want to thank you all for the feedback. @CastTiltowait: Great advice! I will look into RHoD and the victory point system in Heroes of Battle. @SupaTalka: This won't work. :( The ideal adventure is where your party does not know they are doing a planned out adventure. Does the ideal adventure even exist? You do not have to railroad. Simply find out what they want to do, and incorporate that into the adventure you have planned. I guess this is what I actually would end up doing, only on a session-by-session basis, not pre-planning the entire adventure. My PC's always choose what they want to do. Then there are consequences as a result of that. You took an extra three days to get from point A to point B? Story has changed. If time is of the essence, I agree. You did not press on into the dungeon, and instead waited an entire day to recover your spells? Uh oh, look at what found you outside! You go back in? What, all the bulky, heavy treasure is gone? Too bad! None of this is leading the party by their nose. Action and reaction. Consequences. I guess I agree on a general basis. But if your 'action and reaction'-logic results in that the PCs really have no choice but to follow your pre-planned path every time, this is railroading to me. Players go around breaking laws? Well, the townguard is going to come see them. They fight the guards? Uh oh, the mayor has called an emergency session of the town council and they have decided to hire mercenaries to deal with the party? Well, you could have made another choice. This is entirely free choice. You just have to understand that the game world does operate while the players are not interacting with it. Certainly, this is always true, but has little to do with the 'free form' versus 'adventure path' discussion (if anything, this is where 'free form' has to be applied) If you can't think of at least 3 outcomes for every encounter combat or otherwise then you need more DM practice. Oh, I do indeed need more DM practice :P You need a base storyline. You do NOT need to follow a script, however. Edit Down Here: If it helps, think of your session as one of two-things: 1) A Themepark, like Disney Land 2) Space Mountain, a ride in Disney Your game should operate like #1 and not like #2. The players are free to choose where they go and what they do to an extent. But they are adventurers, life is dangerous for them. You can tell your players there is a dragon cave 2 miles away, and they can go there, but it's a really poor decision to make. Too much of number 2 and your players feel like they are trapped on a roller-coaster, guided by the rails until the pre-determined ride is over. Too much of #1 and they do not ever actually DO anything. It's up to you as a DM to make them interested in the various rides that are available - how they get there can be entirely up to them. IMO, my idea is #1 exactly! I put them in a situation, and they are free to "solve it" the way they want. Only thing is, the different encounters are not pre-planned. If you disagree, please tell me why! :) @toucanbuzz: Your advice is good, and you address a few points I have been pondering upon. My main concern has been how to inspire the players to move the story forward, without me pushing them (or leading them by the nose). Like you said, a good hook is important: A hook that the PCs want to bite, and not one you attach to them. The way you did your adventure sounds much like how I'd like to do it. Put the PCs in a situation and ask: "Now, what do you do about this?"
snakeheadfish33 11-30-07, 11:04 AM	AVAST! THE GREAT WHITE WHALE!!! Recently I was inspired by the way video games offer up adventure. Using the example of "character walks into a town. Character interacts with populace and environment. Quests are gained through this interaction. Quests can be approached and completed in any order and in multiple ways. All choices are left up to the player." I have to say it was one of the most challenging tasks I had ever undertaken as a DM (but did inspire a second game group to start a new campaign this way). Truthfully when I threw this at the players there was a few moments of "what are we doing?" What should I be doing? Where to start?" but once the ball got rolling it became one of the funnest games we've ever done. Alas real life came along, players changed jobs and schedules and we have halted the game. But, talks have started about picking it back up again. I too, a victim of job change, haven't updated the recap for many, many moons. There is still story to tell and pictures to post. Crom damn me for not having done that already. One day it shall be. Anyways, here's a link to the forgotten thread. You may find it useful and I would be glad to answer any questions and offer any advice if you see fit. Good luck and good gaming. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=897253
Subversive 11-30-07, 11:39 AM	I've incorporated various aspects of this into my gaming. Generally I give them a goal, and several obvious options to reach that goal. It's worked well to one degree or another over my time as a DM. Recently I took this to the tactical level, inspired in part by the brilliant RHoD. I set up an airship battle where my players were aboard an unarmed merchant zeppelin, trying to outrun a military warship. Their actions would dictate many of the consequences that occured, but not all. For example, if they successfully defended the blimptop from being punctured by griffon and hippogrif riders, they would make it to an "asteroid" field of floatstone, where the smaller vessel could outmaneuver the big courser. However, they could not defend the lower decks at the same time, and one of the propellers was disabled, slowing the little ship down, allowing the courser to send over boarding ships. Similarly, if they were able to successfully put out a fire that started from a magical duel between the two ship's NPC magic users, they would prevent the merchant vessel from having to moore itself on one of the floatstone bergs inside the field. This would allow the ship to successfully dodge the ballista fire from the military ship, which could strongly affect the outcome of the boarding action. If they failed at both tasks, the captain would have to moore the ship on the first available floatberg, allowing the military ship to grapple and send over its full force - an outcome that would have been overwhelmingly bad.
CCS 11-30-07, 12:48 PM	First, players generally aren't excited to show up to a table with nothing on the agenda. Free form "do what you want" will get pretty dry in a short while as folks shrug, wondering "is there a point to my being here?" Similarly, players will not appreciate being led by the nose and again wonder "is there a point to my making decisions?" The only players not excited to show up on game night tend to be those who aren't really into this type of game, or who lack the imagination to have thier characters forge their own path. Personally, I'd much rather be in a free-form game than a liniar-railroad type game. (mostly because it's less of a hassle than trying to extricate myself from the train car/plot track) So would most of the people I game with. See, we play these characters known as adventurers. Thus we go adventuring.... :) And we do this regardless of what the DMs got prepared. Sometimes it works out that what the DMs prepared suits us. Sometimes it doesn't though. And when that happens we simply proceed with either trying to acomplish our personal goals or we pick an arbitray spot on the map (generally some ruin etc, though whole countries have been chosen now & then), gather supplies, and set off exploring. We've headed off to Kara-Tur to see the architecture. We've sailed over the horizon simply to see if the world really is flat. We've gone elephant hunting. And yes, we have gone to investigate those places on the map that read "Point of No Return" & "Here be Dragons". Our typical response to things like that is "Really?" We view these as blatent clues to adventure.... Oh, and sometimes we also happen to save the kingdom/wolrd etc as well. In short we, the players, are fully capable of providing our own entertainment & seeds for the action to come.
GoriceXII 12-01-07, 04:54 AM	I think that sometimes you get a sort of 'rp snobbery' happening. Some groups love really casual games. Some like freeform, some don't. I think it's all cool and the system seems to accomodate many styles of gaming. to be honest I sometimes miss having people who could easily handle a free form game, but my current group really can't, it messes them up. they need direction, albeit subtle direction. anyway some really good adventures exist out there like Red Hand of Doom that are worth checking out and are a little more freeform. You can certainly do any 'level' of the adventure any time you want, the pcs are free to follow up clues, act on information and so on.
DMDaddy 12-01-07, 09:16 AM	See, we play these characters known as adventurers. Thus we go adventuring.... :) And we do this regardless of what the DMs got prepared. This brings back fond memories of a past player who declared, "I bury the cursed quest item and travel to the, what's the nearest biggest city?" This was not what the other players were use to. I stopped the session after another 10 minutes and never asked her back. I must be deluded to think that the game is a cooperation between DM and players. My current group is almost ready for free form non-linear adventures. Basicaly, this: You are 1st level adventures who have decided to travel together. You are in an unfamiliar town and have little money and no place to stay. What do you do? I DM on the fly until they find a quest/hook they like. My job at this point is to offer as many hooks as I can muster until they like one. Then I give them a few minor encounters and end the session. But, I have a week to develop the hook into an adventure. I only create one week in advance and it almost always changes depending on what they do. Forcing a DM to scrap his material is wrong. There should be some form of communication between players expectations and DMs expectations. Fortunately there are some DMs out there that can put such players in a nasty vortex to an unknown plane full of BBEGs. Problem solved, dead characters.