Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AvonRekaes 02-25-04, 09:24 AM	To sum it up: Kill Asmodeus. Yes, I plan on ending my game well into epic levels. I was hoping someone might have advice on planning out the session where my exalted player characters go charging into hell at level 30-something apiece. By then, several of the Archfiends are cakewalks, (*cough Bel cough*) and may actually have been destroyed previously. I do plan on giving the Archfiends a divine rank of 0, but I still doubt that will do much to stop the holy onslaught of my PCs. I was a bit dissappointed with Asmodeus's challenge rating as well, and I was wondering if anyone had a suggestion of what prestige or even base classes to give him to beef him up for my game. (Also, does anyone have any idea how to work in the Asmodeus = The Serpent theory?)
Lord Arkhaven 02-25-04, 12:55 PM	A sure-fire way to bump his power is to give him a Divine Rank higher than Zero. Perhaps 3, 6, or even 9. Giving him levels in his own PrC may help. He is sure to qualify.
WarDragon 02-25-04, 01:31 PM	For classes, Ur-Priest may be good if you alter the flavor text. You may want to check out the newly released Unearthed Arcana; it has a Lawful Evil "Paladin of Tyranny" that might fit the King of Hell, especially in combination with Sorcerer or Cleric. Another way to bump up the CR would be to use the www.dicefreaks.com version of Asmodeus, though I don't have a direct link, and your players might not be ready for it... I have an idea on how to work in the "Serpent" version of Asmodeus, but you should only use it if you're feeling mean. When (if) your players kill the being everyone thinks is Asmodeus, his true form, the Serpent, is awakened. Although not fully recovered from the wounds caused by its fall so many eons ago, it is still an Overdiety, and more than a match for any mortal heroes, however Epic they may be. Their souls are promptly devoured, and Asmodeus forms a new avatar (possibly from one of its opponents' flesh?) before going back to sleep, its recovery hastened by the meal...
Zathress 02-25-04, 07:33 PM	Don't have them charge into the first level of hell at level 30. They take out Lord of the First at around 20th. Of course Bel will have some pit-fiends guarding him. And all the other Dukes will have their guards. . As there are 9 levels of hell the group can go up in level as the progress from one level of hell to the next. DO not do the diablo ending where they kill the big bad guy then become its new body. Players WON'T be happy.
AvonRekaes 02-25-04, 11:08 PM	Yeah, I wouldn't do the diablo thing, that's just plain mean. Problem is, by the time they actually run through this, I think they can just somehow get to Asmodeus's inner sanctum quite easily, can't they? The Gate spell goes where you want it to, right? I plan on upping Asmodeus's servant's stats too. Like the ancient red dragon he keeps around will actually be a Great Wyrm with 12 levels in that one prestige class from Draconomicon which replaces it's heart with a fiend's. As for the previous archfiends, would it be completely out of line for Asmodeus to send one to the material plane? Perhaps one of his wheels-within-wheels schemes revolves around the death of one of the archfiends, but for his scheme to work it can't seem like an assassination. So Asmodeus tells whatever archfiend that he's going on a special mission to slaughter some particularly troublesome mortals, knowing full well that the battle could go either way. Whatever the outcome, Asmodeus wins. (Stop the mortals amassing power trying to kill him, or advance just one more of his cunning plots) Because I have plans that will hopefully keep my PCs out of hell until I want them there. (Like searching for the parts of both the Regeila of Good and Regeila of Evil among different campaign setting material worlds)
Zathress 02-25-04, 11:45 PM	there are many ways to block teleport and planner travel and you don't have to tell the PC's any of them. The simplest but also cheezy is, the only way to enter Asmodeus lair with out his permission is to gather the keys. Eight is a nice number. This would force the PC's to confront each Archdevil as of course they each have a key. Another methoed is this Hell is only ONE plane but it has 9 levels you can't teleport from one level to the next unless you have physically been to that level before (which your PC's would have not) The only execption is the first level of hell. So before the party can get to the second level of hell they must, enter the first level and gain access to the gate to the next. Of course this gate will be guarded and then have it require a magical wardstone to open it. This Wardstone if held by Bel. Then on the next level perhaps the door will only open in the pressence of the second levels duke. So the party must kill the duke and bring his body to the door. Or you can repeat the wardstone idea up untill they reach Asmodeus. Then again you could just mention the party can fight the Dukes of Hell one at a time or all at once. Sending the Archfiends after the players directly doesn't work if Asmodeus did that you'd have the Celestials sending their strongest warriors after all is the perfect chance to kill a duke of hell.
sciborg2 02-26-04, 01:24 AM	I would say this is impossible unless you can summon Asmodeus to the Prime or at least to another layer of Baator/Hell. I am trying to be a wet blanket but your PCs should have something going for them that gives them the ability to pull this off whereas innumerable beings existing since the dawn of time have failed. They should need some artifacts, some divine help, and some aid from the other Lords of Nine instead of slaying them. This makes it more realistic IMHO.
Zathress 02-26-04, 01:46 AM	i doubt any other lord of the nine would help in that matter. However a demon prince such as Demogorgon Prince of Demons would be very happy to help them of course being demogorgon he'd screw the party over first chance he got.
BenjCano 02-26-04, 03:49 AM	First off, I like the idea of Asmodeus's guardian dragon being an epic challenge in and of itself, and like your plans for it. However, it's my opinion that a blue or a green dragon would make more sense as the personal valet or handmaiden to Asmodeus, given their lawful bent. The Disciple of Ashardalon idea is great. On to other things. The only way I really feel it possible for a being as intelligent, calculating as Asmodeus to fail to recognize the threat of the part and crushing them like flies at level 21 or so is that if their entire conflict with him had been engineered from the start by one of his rivals. The most obvious candidates for this, of course, are Mephistopholes and Belial, but you could put a twist on things and have Levistus the schemer and manipulator. Suppose the Big Frosty contacts the PCs through dreams or visions, or uses one of their NPC allies as a mouthpiece. He claims to be an adventurer from Sigil (or wherever) who had gone to the Nine Hells on a quest to retrieve a holy artifact/rescue some person/on a grand adventure and been caught and trapped and tormented for years beyond count. Only now had he learned away to pierce the veils between the planes, and call out for help. Levistus (he is probably using a name and face different from his own, so let's call him Temit) says that the only way for mortals to enter Hell unchallenged by the hordes of devils is for them to ride on Asmodeus's own steed, the great devil-dragon Stormfell. He explains that once every century, Stormfell is released from his service temporarily to hunt and feed on the Material plane. If they can force the beast to surrender, they can demand passage to Stygia, the Fifth Layer of Hell. There, Levistus has placed one of his most powerful followers in a palace to act the place as Lord of the Fifth. The party storms the keep, slays Levistus's pawns, and are guided to the place where Temit is kept encased in ice. If the party can free Temit, he will be able to guide them in whichever way they like. He may tell them the location of a great stock of devil bane weapons, and even, it is said, a blade that could be used to slay Asmodeus himself. In reality, this is furhter guilding, the weapons placed by Levistus, and function exactly as described...with the sole exception that the devil banepropoerty will not function against Levistus. Temit either accompanies or sends the party out on the quest to retrieve these items. As they do so, they are attacked by devils at every turn, almost as if they were being guided to attack the party...capturing one alive and forcing him to talk has the devil reveal that Asmodeus is enraged that mere mortals has the temerity to free Temit, and that Hell won't rest until Temit is back in his proper place. In reality, this is just Levistus sacrificing more pawns to gode the PCs into challenging Asmodeus. If the party does so, Temit may find a way for them to penetrate into the heart of Nessus, or at least arrive on its front door, undetected. Levistus will either blind the other lords to the events that then take place, or secure from them promises that they will not interfere. The PCs can feel free to slay Asmodeus from there on in as mighty a duel as you like, but if they succeed, Temit will arrive and reveal himself as Levistus, and take up the Ruby Rod and pronounce himself Lord of the Ninth. After a battle with Asmodeus, its doubtful the party could contend with another Prince of Hell, but Levistus may well let them live for having placed himself on the blackest of all thrones. He'll have more important things to worry about, after all, what with his fellow Archdevils disputing his claims almost from the first. If the players succeed, they will have changed the power structure of Hell itself, but doubtless for the better.
AvonRekaes 02-26-04, 07:46 AM	Ben, that is all really cool, and I mean that sincerely, but I doubt I will use any of it. I already have a story going on in the background. The whole reason the party is sent after Asmodeus is because he is trying to reach true Godhood. (Immediately giving him greater deity status). There is a hidden deadline, that can be moved forward or backward depending on the artifacts that the PCs retrieve or let fall into enemy hands. Should the PCs fail to meet that deadline Asmodeus will gain divine rank 19, and be much much harder to beat or even find. And by the way, I didn't make up the red dragon, it says it in the book of vile darkness, that it's a red. They say Asmodeus just keeps it around to look fierce, and since Reds are the most powerful of the chromatics, Reds are the best choice for looking fierce. Also, the Pit-Fiend guards Asmodeus keeps around might also be 10th level Blackguards or somesuch. There is much that Asmodeus is leaving up to Bane and his Zhentarim arm. Of course Bane is actually just trying to backstab Asmodeus, by stealing his divine spark when he gets it, in an attempt to become an Overdeity. Most of the adventure will take place on the material plane, so Asmodeus might not be so conserned will silly primes. Besides, if he moved against all being that might be a threat, I'm pretty sure Elminster wouldn't have been given a chance to reach his epic level of power that he is at right now. Same for most of the Faerunian good-aligned epic-NPCs. I would rather not place rules-bending limitations on how spells or the planes work. If the gate spell does indeed allow them to go straight to Asmodeus, then I don't see why I should suddenly limit their power. If they think to Gate there, I should reward them for making a good spell choice. That's not to say I'll pull any punches. Perhaps Gating directly to him is indeed the most direct route, but not the easiest. As for there being something special about my PCs... Well duh. In any game, the PCs should be the most special people in the campaign world. Trust me on this, there are various prophecies and lineages at work that set them up to be Asmodeus's slayers.
Ulden Throatbane 02-26-04, 09:33 PM	If there is a prophecy that the PCs will slay Asmodeus, then its very likely that the King of Hell has learned of it. He doesn't necessarily know that it is the PCs in particular, but he'll have quite literally unleashed the hounds of hell to find and destroy his would-be killers. If you want a climatic ending, then there are several possibilities: 1: The-seemingly-endless-parade-of-end-bosses routine. I wouldn't recommend this if they've played a lot of FF games :). Once the PCs reach Malsheem, have them fight through infernals, LE epic dragons, a demilich or two, unique devils, a hecatoncheries (using only 8-handed weapons), and a half-fiend leshay. Then they fight Asmodeus' assumed form before finally fighting his true serpent form. Have lots of cafinee for this battle. 2: Surprising twist at the end. The posibilities are endless in this department. Bane shows up in the middle of the fight and consumes Asmodeus. The exhasted PCs have only that moment to halt Bane's transformation into an overdeity. Alternatively, Cyric gets a wind of the whole affair and shows up at what looks like the climatic battle. He can either give the PCs an unintended impetus at foiling evil all around, or he gives the PCs an even bigger problem than what they were originally dealing with. If you go with the Cyric option, he should disguise himself as an adventurer who wants to help the PCs, and only reveals his true form at the end. 3: Heroic sacrifice. If the PCs have to destroy Asmodeus' true form, then they should find a epic sanctified spell that will allow them to accomplish this otherwise impossible feat. The catch? First, the spell uses the caster's soul to power it, consuming it entirely (its assumed that it goes to the happy version of oblivion, rather than the depressing one. :rolleyes: ). Second, the spell also disrupts magic on Nessus, preventing the PCs from simply teleporting away once Asmodeus is gone. Neither do any of the portals work. Instead, they have to take the secret branch of the Styx out of the plane. The reason the spell is disrupting the magic on Nessus? Its in the process of destroying it :devil: .
Dawnspeaker 02-27-04, 11:08 AM	This is really just a side bit on the whole topic. Though I will say very epic but with the defenses the dukes do have most of the PCs will actually need to be levels a good bit higher then the dukes CR to fight that much at once. In anycase..the red dragon. Wasn't it in Mestopholies throne room? Cause Mest is the lord of hellfire, so his throne room is warm even though on the frozen layer and the dragon just lays around and looks dangerous.
AvonRekaes 03-01-04, 08:48 AM	Actually, you're right. The red dragon is in Mephi's fortress. But I like the idea so much I'm just going to relocate him to Asmodeus's fortress. Maybe Mephi lost him to Asmodeus in a game of poker. :P The book of vile darkness also has stats for Asmodeus's daughter, but she's rather weak, only CR 18. I don't see how she can be of much use in a climax-battle sort of way, but perhaps there can be some plotline about her. Asmodeus's elite hamatulas, the Spark Hunters, are also his eyes and ears on the material plane, so my PCs might run into them fairly early on in epic. There are apparently 6 of them and each is CR 22. The Book of VD also details Asmodeus's personal secretary, who is at CR 13. He usually deals with other Devils on Asmodeus's behalf, but my PCs could possibly spot him on the Material Plane meeting with the Zhentarim.. Does anyone else have some ideas on what kind of creatures and devils should be guarding Asmodeus's fortress? Perhaps a couple of powerful undead? I just need some brainstorming about the encounter. I've got the story figured out for the most part. Also, does anyone know if there is any detailed map of Asmodeus's fortress, official or unofficial , any edition?
Arakano 03-01-04, 04:27 PM	Wasn´t there an army of 9999 Cornugons guarding the entry to the ninth layer? WOuldn´t make sense to have them there if you could just gate in whenever you wanted... And remember this devil lord that Asmodeus "fired" ( :D ), Geryon or so? This would be an exquisite tool in your campaign! Maybe Amsodeus sent him off with secret orders to kill the PCs; promising him once more a position of power. Or Geryon knows a secret way to Asmodeus throne room, and is willing to share this information...
Dawnspeaker 03-01-04, 04:41 PM	Even worse..it actualy 9,999 gelugons, meanier buggier devils then cornugons. (great point though on remember there were the guardian devils) The Geryon idea is a great one, can even get his stats from WotC website..and then have nice plot threads against Levitas to
sciborg2 03-01-04, 07:07 PM	damn, above I said I *was* trying to be a wet blanket. :embarrass I'm just really conservative about this kind of thing. If mortals could kill Asmodeus, why hasn't someone else done so? What makes the PCs so special that they can bypass all the wards of the Hells and gate into the palace? There are very few entrances directly to any lower layer, especially the Ninth. There's also an army of millions of fiends in Malsheem, wherein Asmodeus resides, a fortress that is likely unmappable as its the largest building in the known multiverse. I'd definitely throw in the need to find necessary artifacts, spells....But then again to me the Lords of Nine are as strong if not stronger than gods.
Zathress 03-01-04, 08:04 PM	an old 2nd edition quest for epic characters was to slay Demogorgon Prince of Demons. In movies, TV and in games the heros often try to do things that have never been done before and others say no mortal could ever do this. Perhaps no mortal has ever tried before. "I understand now, I didn't lose because you weren't human I lost because you are" Well the line went something like that in Yu Yu Hakusho.
AvonRekaes 03-01-04, 08:16 PM	Sciborg your wet blanket wasn't asked for nor is it appreciated. What makes my PCs so special? I ask you, what makes Asmodeus so special? His CR is 32. His stats are quantifiable. And you're just plain *wrong*. Lords of Hell are NOT more powerful than Gods, they are significantly weaker. This isn't my opinion, this is a comparison between Deities and Demigods and the Book of Vile Darkness. If you house rule it differently in your game, go ahead. But don't argue that you are correct and tell me that my entire idea for a campaign is invalid with your wet blanket. That's not the purpose of this thread. As for the 9,999 gelugons, yeah I know about them. Trouble is Wish can transport you from any specific place on a plane to any specific place on that plane or any other plane with no chance of error. "I wish that I and my three companions here were inside Asmodeus's Fortress on the lowest layer of the Nine Hells." That's a valid wish, and as per the Wish spell, of low-enough power that I shouldn't mess with the intent or meaning of it.
dmdarkdragon 03-01-04, 09:37 PM	I think you all are forgetting that Tiamat the Chromatic Dragon's cave is right next to the staircase that leads from the first layer of Baator to the second. There's two sets of stats you could use for her... The non-diety version in Manual of the Planes and the diety version in Dieties and Demigods. The one in MotP is around a CR 32 creature (if I can remember correctly), and the one in DDG is a lesser diety. If you use her as a "sub-boss" type encounter (and your players survive) I'd recommend an increase to Asmodeus' stats or make the Serpent who sleeps below Nessus awake after Asmodeus' familiar form is destroyed. e.g. The form of Asmodeus we usually see is actually an avatar for his real form... Whatever it may be. A gigantic serpent overdiety or some fallen celestial, or perhaps one of the original Baatorians.
Zathress 03-01-04, 11:07 PM	Tiamat may be right next to the gate, but a small bribe (200,000gp) and she'd let the party pass. Tiamat has better things to do then stop every group of would be heroes that go off to make war on hell.
Kolo 03-02-04, 07:34 AM	Hm. Well... I'm just making an irreverent suggestion here, mind you... If you have Deities and Demigods, try giving Asmodeus a few divine levels (And some really nast salient abilities). 3-6 should be enough to bump him up to ridiculous power levels. Then, to take an old idea... The Diablo thing, where the PC dooms himself trying to contain the demon... Don't actually DO that per se, but leave the OPTION open... one or more of the PC's just might fall into the trap. (Sorta like the old "Head of Vecna" trick... entire parties decapitating themselves is tons of fun :D )
Asta Kask 03-02-04, 07:53 AM	Asmodeus has an army in preparation, an army mightier than any that has been unleashed in the Bloodwar. Should be interesting to see your PCs fight their way through it. Asmodeus may be CR 32 to-to-toe, but what makes you think he would fight that way?
Dawnspeaker 03-02-04, 09:02 AM	True wish can transport..but what if someone has made a previous wish of "I wish that no unauthorized magical transportation is available within Baator(hell)". It also seems they let Miracle do more then Wish alot of the time and I believe Asmodius can cast 9th level divine spells. If i was a devil lord I'd block people from coming into my house.
Arakano 03-02-04, 02:41 PM	To answer the questions of "Why has noone done it before?", and "What makes the PCs special?" To 1: Well, who says so? I mean, were did Lucifer go? Did Satan resign? I think someone had to kill them... And me and others suggested to use the PCs in the plot of some Devil lord to usurp Asmodeus position. That might explain their better chances... To 2: Weeeeell... THEY ARE EPIC! Honestly, that means they are among the most powerful beings to EVER walk the earth, unless your campaign is one of those unnerving "no-matter-how-good-you-are-you-are-nothing-to-me"-worlds. That should be enough of an explanation.
AvonRekaes 03-02-04, 02:42 PM	I'll definately be doing something with Tiamat, and I plan to use her MotP stats. She's CR 25 there, by the way. I think I will include a Serpent battle afterward. I like the idea of a fallen celestial, but the serpentine overdeity seems to be the leading theory... And sounds a crapload more scary. Kolo, perhaps you didn't read the earlier posts in this thread, but the entire focus of the game is to NOT let Asmodeus gain deific power. I'm already stretching my intent by giving him Divine Rank 0. Also the diablo suggestion was given earlier, but I understand what you mean about making it a choice. Perhaps the battle with the Serpent can be averted by PC sacrifice, or they can just choose to fight on without compromising. Asmodeus having DR higher than 0 will be punishment for campaign-spanning failures on the part of the PCs. Asta Kask. You bring up good points, to be sure, but to answer your question with a question: What makes you think he would have any other choice but fight face to face? There are only so many places you can run to, only so many diversions you can make. Especially against a party with an average level of 30. Don't underestimate the power of Epic PCs. I feel that people should embrace Epic more. Epic PCs are different than non-epic PCs. Sure, any regular PC has no chance in hell, no pun intended, of defeating Asmodeus. He's 12 challenge ratings above the highest level they can achieve. I mean really, the DMG only gives you experience for challenge ratings 8 higher. They tell you something is drasticly wrong if your PCs are fighting harder things than that. I feel alot of you wet-blanket types are stuck in a pre-Epic mindset. Eventually, PCs can take on 4 Asmodeuses a day, and only need to rest before taking on the 5th. (I.E. when their challenge rating is 32, and if Asmodeus isn't given a divine rank or any prestige class levels.) As for armies of gelugons, remember that gelugons are challenge rating 13. My PCs are going to be around level 30. Let me ask you a question, what challenge would an huge legion of dire wolves give for 20th level characters? Possibly a mildly big one. It's not to far out of their capabilites. Dawnspeaker: Actually, I just thought of doing that last night. Perhaps the farthest one can go is the 8th layer, maybe even further.
Jaern 03-02-04, 06:15 PM	You could always have Asmodeus be only one of the many masks of Nyarlathotep. Then, hilarity ensues when they kill him and bring the vengeance of the Great Old Ones upon their world. It's comedy gold!
AvonRekaes 03-02-04, 08:31 PM	I'm sorry, Nyarlathotep? I'm afraid I havn't been around long enough to know who or what that is. Is this another theory about Asmodeus's true form? Oh, and just because I made myself curious, I actually calculated how many Gelugons a party of 30th level PCs can destroy before resting. 2048. 256 gelugons is roughly an EL 29 encounter and a party can face 8 encounters 1 CR below their average party level before resting. Sure, that's only about a fifth of the gelugons guarding the gates to nessius, but who says they have to get through in one day? And to the rest of you nay-sayers proclaiming that even 30th level characters can't bring down all the forces of hell, keep in mind that that number, 2048 gelugons, doubles every two levels. The PCs can go adventure elsewhere for a little and return to decimate the gates of Nessius at level 36. Forget about level 38 or even 40. Anything is possible in epic, given enough time.
Jaern 03-02-04, 09:03 PM	Originally posted by AvonRekaes I'm sorry, Nyarlathotep? I'm afraid I havn't been around long enough to know who or what that is. Is this another theory about Asmodeus's true form? Nyarlathotep is one of the creations of the author H.P. Lovecraft. The Call of Cthulhu roleplaying game is based off of his works and works interrelated with his in a fictional setting known as the 'Cthulhu Mythos'. Essentially, there are three main gods, known as the 'Outer Gods'. Azathoth is the embodiment of entropy, while Shub-Niggurath is the embodiment of fertility. Yog-Sothoth is time itself. Most of the time, these three entities are cold and inhuman, having nothing to do with us at all because we are so unknowing of the universe that we are nothing to them. The 'Great Old Ones' are all from lesser races than the gods, yet still infinitely mightier than the humans. For example, Cthulhu is a priest of Azathoth, leader of his race (the Starspawn of Cthulhu). Nyarlathotep is the messenger of the Outer Gods, and can be said to be like the 'Great Old One' of the humans. He is the only Great Old One that actively cares about human dealings. To accomplish this subtle manipulation, he relies on having multiple avatars. Most gods in D&D have one, two, maybe three. Nyarlathotep is rumored to have 999. I figure that Nyarlathotep would actually work well to show what Asmodeus and the other fiends are- they are in fact just both (negative) aspects of humanity, all the Archfiends could be represented as different Masks of Nyarlathotep. This could be an interesting route to go- the Great Old Ones and the Outer Gods are FAR mightier than the likes of Asmodeus. For example, Azathoth has... hmm... 2,666 HP. He'd have a divine rank well over any other god that's ever been published; he is everpresent throughout the entire galaxy at the nuclear level in the form of entropy. It would be interesting to hear of a group attempting to fight the Great Old Ones/Outer Gods.
AvonRekaes 03-02-04, 09:11 PM	Hmm. Maybe thats where I can take the game to after theyy defeat Asmodeus. Interesting stuff, thanks for the explination. However, I think I'll stick with the Serpent theory, as I think your twist is, however interesting and cool, your twist. The Serpent theory has been, as far as I can tell, seeded in many books, such as the Manual of the Planes itself and the Epic Level Handbook. I'd like to put some weight behind the theory in my campaign and let the seeds grow to fruition. Perhaps the PCs somehow learn that someone else mightily important is an avatar of this Old One.
Bort333 03-03-04, 05:56 PM	BoVD and Exalted Deeds dont' take into account epic games really. I mean a party of level 21's can kill the ruler of the first layer of heaven... Yeesh. I say bump up their stats by 10, add some more HD (10? 20?)
AvonRekaes 03-03-04, 09:04 PM	Actually you can take on the Lord of the First as 20th or even 19th level characters. He'd be only 1 or 2 challenge ratings above your party level. You can take on two CRs that are 1 above your challenge rating before resting, so a 20th level party is perfectly capable of defeating Bel. He only becomes *really* challenging for 19th or 18th level PCs. Besides I was going to add an entire prestige class to Asmodeus. Just havn't figured out which.
Misato001 10-21-04, 10:30 AM	Hi, Were in BovD doe's it tell u about Asmodeus true form {Serpent} any help ?
Zathress 10-22-04, 01:25 PM	all it says is it might be his true form.