Age vs. Level, or Where did I put that +5 Diaper? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Age vs. Level, or Where did I put that +5 Diaper? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darth_Singe
06-24-07, 05:22 PM Well, it's several weeks since I posted this at the old Regdar's Repository board, and it hasn't passed the Mods requirements yet, so I am assuming it is safe to post here.

I can remember being a teenager and buying the 2nd edition AD&D collector cards and seeing characters in the mid to high level range all being in thier late 30's, early 40's (some even in thier late 50's, early 60's!).

I have also read many books and seen many movies where the most powerful characters have been alive for a little while, been around, and seen things. Maybe got a few aging penalties and/or bonuses. People like Gandalf, King Conan, Palpatine, Ramirez, Whistler, Elrond, Acheron Parthenopaeus, Flint Fireforge, Drizzt, and even Artemis Entreri to name but a few.

So, why is it in many 3.5 campaigns that age is something ignored? I have played in a few games where time passes, but honestly the game is designed for semi-rapid leveling, with little to no lengthy passing of time between adventures. This is mostly a campaign or DM issue, but in a way it can be a player issue as well.

For Example, I once decided as a DM to pass 20 years of game time to better tell my story, and one of my players threw a gasket because that meant his Fighter would now be middle aged and have to suffer aging penalties. It was a big fight, and in the end I won, but after having to play up my next story arc and promising untold riches and power, etc.

Also, how many of us have shown off or seen other players showing off thier 25th level Wizard only to glance over at the age column and seeing 16 written there, or even 25? I always laugh, because age and experience don't always go hand in hand, and as any RPG is supposed to be escapist fantasy, we usually just ignore it.

However, there are those of us out there who believe you should not be just getting towards the end of puberty and single handedly taking down the tarrasque before breakfast twice on a Sunday.

So what I am proposing is an age requirement in order to gain higher levels. I would break the levels down like this.

Low Levels 1-5
Mid Levels 6-10
Peak Levels 11-15
High Levels 16-20
Epic Levels 21+

Each set of these level ranges would have an age requirement.

Low Level does not have an age requirement, but most characters are near or at the end of thier adolescent stage of life.

Mid Levels would require you to be well into your adult life, so I suggest taking the high end level for this range (10), multiplying it by 2, and adding it to the base starting age for the race. Thus a human would need to be 35 years of age in order to take level 11, or 130 years for an elf.

Apply the same equation to the other level ranges, and you have the following: Level 16 would require a human to be 45 years of age, while level 21 would require him to be 55.

I suggest using the system of level ranges, but it can also be applied to specific levels above 1st. A particularly strict DM could require your human character to at least be 19 years to achive level 2, or even 29 years to achive level 7.

Some might say this system is unfair or even unrealistic to certain non-human races, but I feel the level adjustment system works just fine for them.

In conclusion, while maybe not a perfect system, it does lead to a game where the characters with the most experience have lived a little.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
06-24-07, 05:30 PM It's a bad idea man. Trust me on that.

BTW, Drizzt is in his seventies (IIRC anyway, haven't read those books for years)or so. He's in no way old.
Draco Strang
06-24-07, 06:25 PM Really, the whole age/experience system makes no sense. How is it that human wizards can start play at 1st level in their early twenties, but it takes elves 110 years to learn the same sleep spell?

Let's just say that maturity/cultural differences/body chemistry explain the age difference, eh? Ok, I can live with that.

I've DM'd and played in many, many campaigns, and had campaign arcs lasting anywhere from a few weeks to several hundred years. The problem with the aging penalties/leveling system is that it's hard to justify. How can a level 20 fighter and a level twenty wizard reach the same power level (superficially, anyway) at the same time?

I'm sorry...but it's an AWFUL lot harder to master arcane theory and mechanics than say, advanced fencing parries. :rolleyes: If you look at fantasy literature, and even our own history, how many soldiers lasted through their 40's on active duty? Aside from a few rare cases, not too many. Roman legionnaires signed on for a period of 20-25 years. That would put them at retirement age by their late-30's to mid-40's. Our own United States armed services considers 20 years of service to be "retirement age", with many veterans cashiering out and getting their pension by the time they're 40. Does this mean they're worthless and used up? No....it just means they're a little past their prime to be crawling in the mud and killing enemies of the state in hand-to-hand combat.

That said, humans arguably reach their physical peak in their late 20's or early 30's, and then start to decline once they're over the hill.

Let's take that same human, put him through college, give him a degree in physics, chemistry, or math (the closest thing we have to real-world "magic") and unleash him on the private sector. If he wants a Master's degree, add another two or three years of school. Doctoral studies? Better throw in another four or five on top of that. So now we've got an engineer or physicist that's anywhere from 2nd to 5th level in terms of education and power. How old is he? Hovering at or near the 30-year mark.

Has he even begun to hit his power-curve? Not even close. It takes so long to gain experience in the super-hard, super-technical arts and sciences that that vast majority of scientists and engineers don't do their finest work until their 50's or 60's. Look at real life. How old was Einstein when he published his theory of relativity? How old are Frank M. Ghery and I.M. Pei (world-renowned architects who weren't famous until early 40's)? What about Stephen Hawking and Thomas Edison? These are the closest things we have to real-life wizards, and they don't hit their stride til middle-age, usually.

I believe the same falls into place in fantasy worlds, as well. By the time a wizard truly knows what they're doing and emerges from an apprenticeship, they're still barely-adequate in the eyes of older wizards. They still have to create a few new items or research a high-level spell before being deemed a true professional, and that takes time.

I fully agree that high-level characters should be at least noticeably older than a 1st level teenager, and I try to enforce this by building mandatory downtime in my campaign, even if only a few months or years at a time. However, from a player's view, I also understand the allure of having an epic-level character that's not eligible to drink legally yet, either. Every once in a while, it's nice to have super-fast level progression and revel in your quickly gained power.

Just my two cents, anyway.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
06-24-07, 06:29 PM How old was Einstein when he published his theory of relativity?

He was 26 or so.
darkdragonk
06-24-07, 06:37 PM So your saying that in a group of adventures that got to level 7 together the human would have aged abot 7-10 years but the elf aged 60ish plus years in the same time? Sorry but I don't get this. I did not take quantem physics yet.:P
Draco Strang
06-24-07, 07:00 PM He was 26 or so.

Alright......alright....but how old was he when he ran the math and decided it was possible to build an atomic bomb? Work with me here....lol. :D
was_fired
06-24-07, 08:26 PM A good chunk of groundbreaking work in the field of mathematics is done by people in the early thirties or younger. Physics is aged a bit more than that, and the other sciences also tend to take place at an older point. That said even they tend to peak young. Look at the people who discovered the structure of DNA Rosalind Franklin was 33 when the paper was published, Watson 25, and Crick was 37. Tesla received his first patent at the age of 30 and his last one when he was 72. For the remaining fifteen years of his life he received no patents. 73 of his 112 or so patents were received before he was 40. That said these are only his American patents; he had more in other countries.
zae
06-24-07, 08:45 PM I've been in games where a year or so passes over the course of the adventuring, and at the end of the day, they rarely had time off. In one, it was an ongoing campaign with the land being in perpetual danger (Iron Kingdoms, Witchblade Trilogy), and in the other, we were constantly floating through space, never taking a holiday because we each viewed taking a break as being treason (Geneseed - Warhammer 40K as a D20 game).

I recall playing in a couple of other games where a few years would pass at a time and we could just say what we were basically doing during the lengthy downtime. But for the most part, games just don't have time for the characters to get old.

Which is fine by me. I'm 22 and worrying that I'm getting a bit middle-aged. I'd hate to consider how the characters would look when they reached a frightful age like 25 or 30. I'll keep my Final Fantasy approach of "Save the world before turning 20".
Wharin
06-24-07, 10:38 PM As a whole, I am not thrilled with the idea of PC's being tied to aging for levels...

However I think its a fine idea for DM's to use as a template for their NPC's. Old veterans ala Clint Eastwood and Sgt. Fury should be the toughened badasses while the young prat should still be relatively inexperienced.

Obviously it doesn't have to be the case 100% of the time, PC's being case and point, but as soon as you starting gimping PC's just because of their theorhetical age, its no longer fun.
Lina_Inverse
06-24-07, 11:22 PM For Example, I once decided as a DM to pass 20 years of game time to better tell my story, and one of my players threw a gasket because that meant his Fighter would now be middle aged and have to suffer aging penalties. It was a big fight, and in the end I won, but after having to play up my next story arc and promising untold riches and power, etc.

I'd complain if i was a wizard and the DM said "And for no good reason you get -1 INT, DEX and CON." Thats the equivalent of sending the party fighter into middle age randomly.

Other than that though, I'm not touching this topic with a 10foot pole.

*prods with 11foot pole*
bobotheguy
06-24-07, 11:29 PM I do agree with the problem, sorta. but not the solution. why punish your PC's with aging penalties when they level up? just seems a tad stupid to me (IMO). but on the hand of having 20 years old 20th lvl wizards i do agree. But other make a good point. you dont see a 70 year old fighter kickin butt and takin names later. nor do you see 70 year old bards "Ehhh let me sing you a song called Yellow submarine" (great song, but just trying to point out its an old song) so maybe find some way to connect level and age to just wizards. and definately sorcerors. I say sorcerors mainly because sorcerors have their powers born into them. Through the time they age, they discover these unique abilities and how to harness them to their advantage. so it owuld make sense that as a sorceror advances in level and gains new spells, hesh also ages.

Bobo
Captain_Carrot
06-24-07, 11:39 PM For Example, I once decided as a DM to pass 20 years of game time to better tell my story, and one of my players threw a gasket because that meant his Fighter would now be middle aged.....

First off, whenever a player "throws a gasket", you frickkin duck man! Just jump the heck out of the way and then tell him if he is doing anything, and I mean ANYTHING with a gasket, he should be "blowing" it. :D

Secondly, I see the logic here but I don't think it makes a ton of sense with all of the different race and class flavors. A level 10 human fighter would not be the same age as a level 10 elf wizard. No way, no how.

You could always tweak it for your players in your campaign and more power to you. I just don't think it works across the board.
JolanthusTrel
06-25-07, 12:39 AM you dont see a 70 year old fighter kickin butt and takin names later.
Bobo

Unless his name is Gangis Cohen A.K.A. Cohen the Barbarian... Although I don't think he bothered with names.:P
Escef
06-25-07, 02:20 AM If you look at fantasy literature, and even our own history, how many soldiers lasted through their 40's on active duty? Aside from a few rare cases, not too many. Roman legionnaires signed on for a period of 20-25 years. That would put them at retirement age by their late-30's to mid-40's. Our own United States armed services considers 20 years of service to be "retirement age", with many veterans cashiering out and getting their pension by the time they're 40. Does this mean they're worthless and used up? No....it just means they're a little past their prime to be crawling in the mud and killing enemies of the state in hand-to-hand combat.

Soldiering is a hard life. The training alone can break you. I know someone who came out of basic with a fractured hip. I know people who've permanently messed up their ankles. Stress fractures in the lower leg are a relatively common injury. I saw a kid break his arm during pugile-stick training. (I enlisted at the age of 29, and considering the lifestyle I had before, I think it's a miracle I've lasted the 19 months I've been in so far. And I've had a recurring leg injury half the time.)

The reason why so many NPCs are older is because they grew some sense and said screw this. They quit adventuring and took up a more leisurely life. Or perhaps they went out of their way to take on soft targets, ones they knew they could beat. (Not much XP in those.) This is the same reason why most people in the Army only serve their initial contract. (And those who stay are very dedicated people, that or insane.)
penchant
06-25-07, 09:55 AM Just eliminate the aging penalties. Just because I reached middle age does not mean I got physically weaker. Just because someone reaches venerable age means he has a total -6 to all physical stats. There are plenty of men in their 60's and later who keep in good physical condition, and it does not mean that they were paragons of athleticism in their youths. While someone would hopefully get wiser in their old age, their intelligence and charisma have little reason to improve. With many older people it seems they get a charisma penalty as they age.

Aging penalties are stupid, and don't model anything either in fantasy or reality.

As far as the level versus age thing, remeber that all PC's are the exceptions to the rule. They get high level because they happen to be around when stuff is going on. Elves generally level very slowly because they have little reason to go out and constantly battle. An elf would typically adventure for a bit (with his elven friends) and then they go home and rest for a decade. Then something else comes up and they go out again. It is only the elven PC who adventures with humans and is drawn into a rapid series of adventures that causes his level to shoot up in a few short years.

So rule what you want as far as the ages of NPC's and typical levels for typical ages, but stop when you get to your PC's and let them be brash youths who shoot up the ranks and wield power that normally takes a lifetime to master.
OravennasBrother
06-25-07, 10:53 AM Alright......alright....but how old was he when he ran the math and decided it was possible to build an atomic bomb? Work with me here....lol. :D

Fermi, the guy who did much of the math for the atomic bomb was fairly young, but not for a soldier. Audy Murphy was young for a US soldier; IIRC he volunteered at 17.
Most combatants are past their prime by their mid 30's - George Foreman was an exceptional example of training overcoming aging when he gained the heavyweight title at 45. Even with proper exercise the human body loses about 7% of maximum muscle mass every decade past 20.
Of course D&D aging all occurs in a moment - one second (before the breakpoint birthday) you don't have a penalty, the next you do, but that is a game mechanic. However the Increase in spellcasting attributes is NOT attributable to any aging model - various elements of intellect peak at different ages but all are in decline after 60.
penchant
06-25-07, 07:45 PM Fermi, the guy who did much of the math for the atomic bomb was fairly young, but not for a soldier. Audy Murphy was young for a US soldier; IIRC he volunteered at 17.
Most combatants are past their prime by their mid 30's - George Foreman was an exceptional example of training overcoming aging when he gained the heavyweight title at 45. Even with proper exercise the human body loses about 7% of maximum muscle mass every decade past 20.
Of course D&D aging all occurs in a moment - one second (before the breakpoint birthday) you don't have a penalty, the next you do, but that is a game mechanic. However the Increase in spellcasting attributes is NOT attributable to any aging model - various elements of intellect peak at different ages but all are in decline after 60.

I kinda have to disagree with you. Mental facilites usually only decline with speicific maladies or with lack of use through retirement. People who do not suffer from senile dementia and maintain as mentally active a lifestyle as in their youth, generally do not degrade. As far as the George example, I would say that's the difference between a PC and an NPC. I don't know where you get the data of losing 7% maximum muscle mass per decade. Pass a link on.
caeruleus
06-25-07, 09:11 PM Another example of a great intellectual achievement at a young age is Newton. He invented calculus at 23. But that type of world-shaker is definitely a PC. :cool:
zae
06-25-07, 10:19 PM The increase in Wisdom is actually a bit crazy. As Order of the Stick points out, this means that vision and hearing improve with age.

The only reason people have anything important to tell you when they're old is that they've experienced stuff. They don't gain knowledge and wisdom just by dint of being old, it's because of the things they have done, or that have happened to them and they survived it. This is not a function of their age, but of their experience (level).

As for Charisma... given how it means everything and nothing at the same time, may as well leave it the same.

Intelligence... I haven't seen consistency with age and intelligence either.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darth_Singe 06-24-07, 05:22 PM	Well, it's several weeks since I posted this at the old Regdar's Repository board, and it hasn't passed the Mods requirements yet, so I am assuming it is safe to post here. I can remember being a teenager and buying the 2nd edition AD&D collector cards and seeing characters in the mid to high level range all being in thier late 30's, early 40's (some even in thier late 50's, early 60's!). I have also read many books and seen many movies where the most powerful characters have been alive for a little while, been around, and seen things. Maybe got a few aging penalties and/or bonuses. People like Gandalf, King Conan, Palpatine, Ramirez, Whistler, Elrond, Acheron Parthenopaeus, Flint Fireforge, Drizzt, and even Artemis Entreri to name but a few. So, why is it in many 3.5 campaigns that age is something ignored? I have played in a few games where time passes, but honestly the game is designed for semi-rapid leveling, with little to no lengthy passing of time between adventures. This is mostly a campaign or DM issue, but in a way it can be a player issue as well. For Example, I once decided as a DM to pass 20 years of game time to better tell my story, and one of my players threw a gasket because that meant his Fighter would now be middle aged and have to suffer aging penalties. It was a big fight, and in the end I won, but after having to play up my next story arc and promising untold riches and power, etc. Also, how many of us have shown off or seen other players showing off thier 25th level Wizard only to glance over at the age column and seeing 16 written there, or even 25? I always laugh, because age and experience don't always go hand in hand, and as any RPG is supposed to be escapist fantasy, we usually just ignore it. However, there are those of us out there who believe you should not be just getting towards the end of puberty and single handedly taking down the tarrasque before breakfast twice on a Sunday. So what I am proposing is an age requirement in order to gain higher levels. I would break the levels down like this. Low Levels 1-5 Mid Levels 6-10 Peak Levels 11-15 High Levels 16-20 Epic Levels 21+ Each set of these level ranges would have an age requirement. Low Level does not have an age requirement, but most characters are near or at the end of thier adolescent stage of life. Mid Levels would require you to be well into your adult life, so I suggest taking the high end level for this range (10), multiplying it by 2, and adding it to the base starting age for the race. Thus a human would need to be 35 years of age in order to take level 11, or 130 years for an elf. Apply the same equation to the other level ranges, and you have the following: Level 16 would require a human to be 45 years of age, while level 21 would require him to be 55. I suggest using the system of level ranges, but it can also be applied to specific levels above 1st. A particularly strict DM could require your human character to at least be 19 years to achive level 2, or even 29 years to achive level 7. Some might say this system is unfair or even unrealistic to certain non-human races, but I feel the level adjustment system works just fine for them. In conclusion, while maybe not a perfect system, it does lead to a game where the characters with the most experience have lived a little.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 06-24-07, 05:30 PM	It's a bad idea man. Trust me on that. BTW, Drizzt is in his seventies (IIRC anyway, haven't read those books for years)or so. He's in no way old.
Draco Strang 06-24-07, 06:25 PM	Really, the whole age/experience system makes no sense. How is it that human wizards can start play at 1st level in their early twenties, but it takes elves 110 years to learn the same sleep spell? Let's just say that maturity/cultural differences/body chemistry explain the age difference, eh? Ok, I can live with that. I've DM'd and played in many, many campaigns, and had campaign arcs lasting anywhere from a few weeks to several hundred years. The problem with the aging penalties/leveling system is that it's hard to justify. How can a level 20 fighter and a level twenty wizard reach the same power level (superficially, anyway) at the same time? I'm sorry...but it's an AWFUL lot harder to master arcane theory and mechanics than say, advanced fencing parries. :rolleyes: If you look at fantasy literature, and even our own history, how many soldiers lasted through their 40's on active duty? Aside from a few rare cases, not too many. Roman legionnaires signed on for a period of 20-25 years. That would put them at retirement age by their late-30's to mid-40's. Our own United States armed services considers 20 years of service to be "retirement age", with many veterans cashiering out and getting their pension by the time they're 40. Does this mean they're worthless and used up? No....it just means they're a little past their prime to be crawling in the mud and killing enemies of the state in hand-to-hand combat. That said, humans arguably reach their physical peak in their late 20's or early 30's, and then start to decline once they're over the hill. Let's take that same human, put him through college, give him a degree in physics, chemistry, or math (the closest thing we have to real-world "magic") and unleash him on the private sector. If he wants a Master's degree, add another two or three years of school. Doctoral studies? Better throw in another four or five on top of that. So now we've got an engineer or physicist that's anywhere from 2nd to 5th level in terms of education and power. How old is he? Hovering at or near the 30-year mark. Has he even begun to hit his power-curve? Not even close. It takes so long to gain experience in the super-hard, super-technical arts and sciences that that vast majority of scientists and engineers don't do their finest work until their 50's or 60's. Look at real life. How old was Einstein when he published his theory of relativity? How old are Frank M. Ghery and I.M. Pei (world-renowned architects who weren't famous until early 40's)? What about Stephen Hawking and Thomas Edison? These are the closest things we have to real-life wizards, and they don't hit their stride til middle-age, usually. I believe the same falls into place in fantasy worlds, as well. By the time a wizard truly knows what they're doing and emerges from an apprenticeship, they're still barely-adequate in the eyes of older wizards. They still have to create a few new items or research a high-level spell before being deemed a true professional, and that takes time. I fully agree that high-level characters should be at least noticeably older than a 1st level teenager, and I try to enforce this by building mandatory downtime in my campaign, even if only a few months or years at a time. However, from a player's view, I also understand the allure of having an epic-level character that's not eligible to drink legally yet, either. Every once in a while, it's nice to have super-fast level progression and revel in your quickly gained power. Just my two cents, anyway.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 06-24-07, 06:29 PM	How old was Einstein when he published his theory of relativity? He was 26 or so.
darkdragonk 06-24-07, 06:37 PM	So your saying that in a group of adventures that got to level 7 together the human would have aged abot 7-10 years but the elf aged 60ish plus years in the same time? Sorry but I don't get this. I did not take quantem physics yet.:P
Draco Strang 06-24-07, 07:00 PM	He was 26 or so. Alright......alright....but how old was he when he ran the math and decided it was possible to build an atomic bomb? Work with me here....lol. :D
was_fired 06-24-07, 08:26 PM	A good chunk of groundbreaking work in the field of mathematics is done by people in the early thirties or younger. Physics is aged a bit more than that, and the other sciences also tend to take place at an older point. That said even they tend to peak young. Look at the people who discovered the structure of DNA Rosalind Franklin was 33 when the paper was published, Watson 25, and Crick was 37. Tesla received his first patent at the age of 30 and his last one when he was 72. For the remaining fifteen years of his life he received no patents. 73 of his 112 or so patents were received before he was 40. That said these are only his American patents; he had more in other countries.
zae 06-24-07, 08:45 PM	I've been in games where a year or so passes over the course of the adventuring, and at the end of the day, they rarely had time off. In one, it was an ongoing campaign with the land being in perpetual danger (Iron Kingdoms, Witchblade Trilogy), and in the other, we were constantly floating through space, never taking a holiday because we each viewed taking a break as being treason (Geneseed - Warhammer 40K as a D20 game). I recall playing in a couple of other games where a few years would pass at a time and we could just say what we were basically doing during the lengthy downtime. But for the most part, games just don't have time for the characters to get old. Which is fine by me. I'm 22 and worrying that I'm getting a bit middle-aged. I'd hate to consider how the characters would look when they reached a frightful age like 25 or 30. I'll keep my Final Fantasy approach of "Save the world before turning 20".
Wharin 06-24-07, 10:38 PM	As a whole, I am not thrilled with the idea of PC's being tied to aging for levels... However I think its a fine idea for DM's to use as a template for their NPC's. Old veterans ala Clint Eastwood and Sgt. Fury should be the toughened badasses while the young prat should still be relatively inexperienced. Obviously it doesn't have to be the case 100% of the time, PC's being case and point, but as soon as you starting gimping PC's just because of their theorhetical age, its no longer fun.
Lina_Inverse 06-24-07, 11:22 PM	For Example, I once decided as a DM to pass 20 years of game time to better tell my story, and one of my players threw a gasket because that meant his Fighter would now be middle aged and have to suffer aging penalties. It was a big fight, and in the end I won, but after having to play up my next story arc and promising untold riches and power, etc. I'd complain if i was a wizard and the DM said "And for no good reason you get -1 INT, DEX and CON." Thats the equivalent of sending the party fighter into middle age randomly. Other than that though, I'm not touching this topic with a 10foot pole. prods with 11foot pole
bobotheguy 06-24-07, 11:29 PM	I do agree with the problem, sorta. but not the solution. why punish your PC's with aging penalties when they level up? just seems a tad stupid to me (IMO). but on the hand of having 20 years old 20th lvl wizards i do agree. But other make a good point. you dont see a 70 year old fighter kickin butt and takin names later. nor do you see 70 year old bards "Ehhh let me sing you a song called Yellow submarine" (great song, but just trying to point out its an old song) so maybe find some way to connect level and age to just wizards. and definately sorcerors. I say sorcerors mainly because sorcerors have their powers born into them. Through the time they age, they discover these unique abilities and how to harness them to their advantage. so it owuld make sense that as a sorceror advances in level and gains new spells, hesh also ages. Bobo
Captain_Carrot 06-24-07, 11:39 PM	For Example, I once decided as a DM to pass 20 years of game time to better tell my story, and one of my players threw a gasket because that meant his Fighter would now be middle aged..... First off, whenever a player "throws a gasket", you frickkin duck man! Just jump the heck out of the way and then tell him if he is doing anything, and I mean ANYTHING with a gasket, he should be "blowing" it. :D Secondly, I see the logic here but I don't think it makes a ton of sense with all of the different race and class flavors. A level 10 human fighter would not be the same age as a level 10 elf wizard. No way, no how. You could always tweak it for your players in your campaign and more power to you. I just don't think it works across the board.
JolanthusTrel 06-25-07, 12:39 AM	you dont see a 70 year old fighter kickin butt and takin names later. Bobo Unless his name is Gangis Cohen A.K.A. Cohen the Barbarian... Although I don't think he bothered with names.:P
Escef 06-25-07, 02:20 AM	If you look at fantasy literature, and even our own history, how many soldiers lasted through their 40's on active duty? Aside from a few rare cases, not too many. Roman legionnaires signed on for a period of 20-25 years. That would put them at retirement age by their late-30's to mid-40's. Our own United States armed services considers 20 years of service to be "retirement age", with many veterans cashiering out and getting their pension by the time they're 40. Does this mean they're worthless and used up? No....it just means they're a little past their prime to be crawling in the mud and killing enemies of the state in hand-to-hand combat. Soldiering is a hard life. The training alone can break you. I know someone who came out of basic with a fractured hip. I know people who've permanently messed up their ankles. Stress fractures in the lower leg are a relatively common injury. I saw a kid break his arm during pugile-stick training. (I enlisted at the age of 29, and considering the lifestyle I had before, I think it's a miracle I've lasted the 19 months I've been in so far. And I've had a recurring leg injury half the time.) The reason why so many NPCs are older is because they grew some sense and said screw this. They quit adventuring and took up a more leisurely life. Or perhaps they went out of their way to take on soft targets, ones they knew they could beat. (Not much XP in those.) This is the same reason why most people in the Army only serve their initial contract. (And those who stay are very dedicated people, that or insane.)
penchant 06-25-07, 09:55 AM	Just eliminate the aging penalties. Just because I reached middle age does not mean I got physically weaker. Just because someone reaches venerable age means he has a total -6 to all physical stats. There are plenty of men in their 60's and later who keep in good physical condition, and it does not mean that they were paragons of athleticism in their youths. While someone would hopefully get wiser in their old age, their intelligence and charisma have little reason to improve. With many older people it seems they get a charisma penalty as they age. Aging penalties are stupid, and don't model anything either in fantasy or reality. As far as the level versus age thing, remeber that all PC's are the exceptions to the rule. They get high level because they happen to be around when stuff is going on. Elves generally level very slowly because they have little reason to go out and constantly battle. An elf would typically adventure for a bit (with his elven friends) and then they go home and rest for a decade. Then something else comes up and they go out again. It is only the elven PC who adventures with humans and is drawn into a rapid series of adventures that causes his level to shoot up in a few short years. So rule what you want as far as the ages of NPC's and typical levels for typical ages, but stop when you get to your PC's and let them be brash youths who shoot up the ranks and wield power that normally takes a lifetime to master.
OravennasBrother 06-25-07, 10:53 AM	Alright......alright....but how old was he when he ran the math and decided it was possible to build an atomic bomb? Work with me here....lol. :D Fermi, the guy who did much of the math for the atomic bomb was fairly young, but not for a soldier. Audy Murphy was young for a US soldier; IIRC he volunteered at 17. Most combatants are past their prime by their mid 30's - George Foreman was an exceptional example of training overcoming aging when he gained the heavyweight title at 45. Even with proper exercise the human body loses about 7% of maximum muscle mass every decade past 20. Of course D&D aging all occurs in a moment - one second (before the breakpoint birthday) you don't have a penalty, the next you do, but that is a game mechanic. However the Increase in spellcasting attributes is NOT attributable to any aging model - various elements of intellect peak at different ages but all are in decline after 60.
penchant 06-25-07, 07:45 PM	Fermi, the guy who did much of the math for the atomic bomb was fairly young, but not for a soldier. Audy Murphy was young for a US soldier; IIRC he volunteered at 17. Most combatants are past their prime by their mid 30's - George Foreman was an exceptional example of training overcoming aging when he gained the heavyweight title at 45. Even with proper exercise the human body loses about 7% of maximum muscle mass every decade past 20. Of course D&D aging all occurs in a moment - one second (before the breakpoint birthday) you don't have a penalty, the next you do, but that is a game mechanic. However the Increase in spellcasting attributes is NOT attributable to any aging model - various elements of intellect peak at different ages but all are in decline after 60. I kinda have to disagree with you. Mental facilites usually only decline with speicific maladies or with lack of use through retirement. People who do not suffer from senile dementia and maintain as mentally active a lifestyle as in their youth, generally do not degrade. As far as the George example, I would say that's the difference between a PC and an NPC. I don't know where you get the data of losing 7% maximum muscle mass per decade. Pass a link on.
caeruleus 06-25-07, 09:11 PM	Another example of a great intellectual achievement at a young age is Newton. He invented calculus at 23. But that type of world-shaker is definitely a PC. :cool:
zae 06-25-07, 10:19 PM	The increase in Wisdom is actually a bit crazy. As Order of the Stick points out, this means that vision and hearing improve with age. The only reason people have anything important to tell you when they're old is that they've experienced stuff. They don't gain knowledge and wisdom just by dint of being old, it's because of the things they have done, or that have happened to them and they survived it. This is not a function of their age, but of their experience (level). As for Charisma... given how it means everything and nothing at the same time, may as well leave it the same. Intelligence... I haven't seen consistency with age and intelligence either.