aging rules (some problems I have with them) [Archive] - Wizards Community

aging rules (some problems I have with them) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
asurademon
05-11-06, 05:33 PM After thinking about them, I realized in many cases the aging rules in D&D are just not appropriate. I personally think that what effects aging has on a character should be a lot more variable.
I guess it's not typical, but there are some people whom are in there 40's or 50's but are in better health than they were in their 20's or 30's. So for some characters at least, the negative physical effects of aging should be delayed some.
That and old people aren't necessarily more intelligent, or even wiser than younger people (many are sure but not all). For example what of the stereotypical old curmugeon whom for whatever reason became more and more ill-tempered, close minded and set in their ways as they aged? Seems to me that warrants a loss of wisom if anything.
That and it's not all that uncommon for mental faculties decline with age, so there should be plenty of characters out there that lose intelligence as they get older. What if I want to play my character becoming senile and forgetful as they get older? With the way the aging rules are set up this doesn't really work. And playing a senile old person could be fun if you are doing a somewhat humorous campaign.
As for charisma gained in age. I think whether a person should gain charisma as they age should have everything to do with what culture you are in. In some cultures indeed the older you are the more respected you are, and the more likely you will have some sort of leadership position. In others though you are going to be seen more and more as just a burden, and the young are more likely to gain positions of respect. Perhaps depending on what society they are dealing with an aging person should have some sort of penalty or bonus on charisma rolls, rather than actually gaining or losing charisma?
Anyways I'm just curious what people think, or if anyone has made some custom rules for aging.
myusernameis
05-11-06, 05:52 PM Another point you forgot to bring up about wisdom is that it improves listen and spot despite the fact most peoples senses decrease as they age.
son_fin
05-11-06, 05:54 PM I don't think there's necessarily wrong with the aging rules. Even though abilities change, they still reflect the base abilities of that character. for example, a fighter who had an 18 STR when he was young will still have a 16 at middle age, where a young wizard may still only have a 13 STR, and an 11 when he hits middle age. The fighter is, and always will be (barring magical items) stronger than the wizard. Even in his old age, though his strengh may go down, it still reflects the training he'd done throughout his life. But physical abilities DO decrease with age. No one has as much strength, dexterity or stamina at 80 as they did at 18.

As for mental abilities, it's a little more difficult. Someone can become a grumpy old man, or become a bit senile, and increases in those abilities with age are less definite than the decrease in physical abilities. But, like anything else, the aging rules are negotiable with the DM. If you think your character looses a mental or charisma ability with age, then talk to the DM and roleplay it out.
asurademon
05-11-06, 06:03 PM Yeah there's no doubt that physical abilities go down with age, however some people feel these effects much older than other people, and some people are at their physical peak older than others. And then there's also people whom start declining physically earlier than the norm. I don't have too much of a problem with the way the physical ability effects of aging work in D&D, as they seem appropriate for most people. The mental score effects though aren't really representative of what typically happens with aging. I'm especially convinced after someone mentioning wisdom effecting your listen and spot skills. Anything dealing with the senses should decline with age in the case of most people.
Tequila_Sunrise
05-11-06, 06:39 PM My rule is that aging bonuses do not apply at all, only penalties. The reason is that if you get +1 mental scores at middle age and then at venerable, should you get mental bonuses beyond also? Shouldn't Elminster and Mordenkainen have an intelligence of 100 or so by now, having lived for at least 1000 years? That might make roleplaying sense, but it would be unbalancing mechanics-wise, so therefore no aging bonuses!
d_nychus
05-11-06, 08:36 PM My rule is that aging bonuses do not apply at all, only penalties. The reason is that if you get +1 mental scores at middle age and then at venerable, should you get mental bonuses beyond also? Shouldn't Elminster and Mordenkainen have an intelligence of 100 or so by now, having lived for at least 1000 years? That might make roleplaying sense, but it would be unbalancing mechanics-wise, so therefore no aging bonuses!

So, let me get this straight...

You houserule that aging bonuses continue past what is listed, and then claim that all of aging is unbalanced because your houserule makes things unbalanced?

That's...so ridiculous that it's beyond words.
Seeker95
05-11-06, 08:36 PM Shouldn't Elminster and Mordenkainen have an intelligence of 100 or so by now?Are you claiming that they don't? :P
a_psh
05-12-06, 02:55 AM I guess it's not typical, but there are some people whom are in there 40's or 50's but are in better health than they were in their 20's or 30's. So for some characters at least, the negative physical effects of aging should be delayed some.A level 10 fighter with Con 12 has more hp and better Fortitude saves than a level 6 fighter with Con 14 or 16.

Also, don't forget ability points from leveling, which can more than offset age modifiers.

That and old people aren't necessarily more intelligent, or even wiser than younger people (many are sure but not all). For example what of the stereotypical old curmugeon whom for whatever reason became more and more ill-tempered, close minded and set in their ways as they aged? Seems to me that warrants a loss of wisom if anything.
That and it's not all that uncommon for mental faculties decline with age, so there should be plenty of characters out there that lose intelligence as they get older. What if I want to play my character becoming senile and forgetful as they get older? With the way the aging rules are set up this doesn't really work. And playing a senile old person could be fun if you are doing a somewhat humorous campaign. The conceit of the standard ruleset is that you are playing a game of heroic adventure. Typical fantasy heroes acquire wisdom as they get older and generally don't get senile unless it's a plot device to motivate the next generation of heroes or show off their hubris or something.

As for charisma gained in age. I think whether a person should gain charisma as they age should have everything to do with what culture you are in.Charisma is the ability to manipulate people as well. It can be argued that life experience makes you better at that as you age.

Perhaps depending on what society they are dealing with an aging person should have some sort of penalty or bonus on charisma rolls, rather than actually gaining or losing charisma? Any attempt to codify this would be way too complicated. This is what on-the-spot situational modifiers are for.

Anyways I'm just curious what people think, or if anyone has made some custom rules for aging.Yes. Very simple: start at whatever age you want (within a sensible range, i.e. no children!), aging rules never apply. I've not really had any use for aging rules, so I give my players more flexibility in character creation by not enforcing them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
asurademon 05-11-06, 05:33 PM	After thinking about them, I realized in many cases the aging rules in D&D are just not appropriate. I personally think that what effects aging has on a character should be a lot more variable. I guess it's not typical, but there are some people whom are in there 40's or 50's but are in better health than they were in their 20's or 30's. So for some characters at least, the negative physical effects of aging should be delayed some. That and old people aren't necessarily more intelligent, or even wiser than younger people (many are sure but not all). For example what of the stereotypical old curmugeon whom for whatever reason became more and more ill-tempered, close minded and set in their ways as they aged? Seems to me that warrants a loss of wisom if anything. That and it's not all that uncommon for mental faculties decline with age, so there should be plenty of characters out there that lose intelligence as they get older. What if I want to play my character becoming senile and forgetful as they get older? With the way the aging rules are set up this doesn't really work. And playing a senile old person could be fun if you are doing a somewhat humorous campaign. As for charisma gained in age. I think whether a person should gain charisma as they age should have everything to do with what culture you are in. In some cultures indeed the older you are the more respected you are, and the more likely you will have some sort of leadership position. In others though you are going to be seen more and more as just a burden, and the young are more likely to gain positions of respect. Perhaps depending on what society they are dealing with an aging person should have some sort of penalty or bonus on charisma rolls, rather than actually gaining or losing charisma? Anyways I'm just curious what people think, or if anyone has made some custom rules for aging.
myusernameis 05-11-06, 05:52 PM	Another point you forgot to bring up about wisdom is that it improves listen and spot despite the fact most peoples senses decrease as they age.
son_fin 05-11-06, 05:54 PM	I don't think there's necessarily wrong with the aging rules. Even though abilities change, they still reflect the base abilities of that character. for example, a fighter who had an 18 STR when he was young will still have a 16 at middle age, where a young wizard may still only have a 13 STR, and an 11 when he hits middle age. The fighter is, and always will be (barring magical items) stronger than the wizard. Even in his old age, though his strengh may go down, it still reflects the training he'd done throughout his life. But physical abilities DO decrease with age. No one has as much strength, dexterity or stamina at 80 as they did at 18. As for mental abilities, it's a little more difficult. Someone can become a grumpy old man, or become a bit senile, and increases in those abilities with age are less definite than the decrease in physical abilities. But, like anything else, the aging rules are negotiable with the DM. If you think your character looses a mental or charisma ability with age, then talk to the DM and roleplay it out.
asurademon 05-11-06, 06:03 PM	Yeah there's no doubt that physical abilities go down with age, however some people feel these effects much older than other people, and some people are at their physical peak older than others. And then there's also people whom start declining physically earlier than the norm. I don't have too much of a problem with the way the physical ability effects of aging work in D&D, as they seem appropriate for most people. The mental score effects though aren't really representative of what typically happens with aging. I'm especially convinced after someone mentioning wisdom effecting your listen and spot skills. Anything dealing with the senses should decline with age in the case of most people.
Tequila_Sunrise 05-11-06, 06:39 PM	My rule is that aging bonuses do not apply at all, only penalties. The reason is that if you get +1 mental scores at middle age and then at venerable, should you get mental bonuses beyond also? Shouldn't Elminster and Mordenkainen have an intelligence of 100 or so by now, having lived for at least 1000 years? That might make roleplaying sense, but it would be unbalancing mechanics-wise, so therefore no aging bonuses!
d_nychus 05-11-06, 08:36 PM	My rule is that aging bonuses do not apply at all, only penalties. The reason is that if you get +1 mental scores at middle age and then at venerable, should you get mental bonuses beyond also? Shouldn't Elminster and Mordenkainen have an intelligence of 100 or so by now, having lived for at least 1000 years? That might make roleplaying sense, but it would be unbalancing mechanics-wise, so therefore no aging bonuses! So, let me get this straight... You houserule that aging bonuses continue past what is listed, and then claim that all of aging is unbalanced because your houserule makes things unbalanced? That's...so ridiculous that it's beyond words.
Seeker95 05-11-06, 08:36 PM	Shouldn't Elminster and Mordenkainen have an intelligence of 100 or so by now?Are you claiming that they don't? :P
a_psh 05-12-06, 02:55 AM	I guess it's not typical, but there are some people whom are in there 40's or 50's but are in better health than they were in their 20's or 30's. So for some characters at least, the negative physical effects of aging should be delayed some.A level 10 fighter with Con 12 has more hp and better Fortitude saves than a level 6 fighter with Con 14 or 16. Also, don't forget ability points from leveling, which can more than offset age modifiers. That and old people aren't necessarily more intelligent, or even wiser than younger people (many are sure but not all). For example what of the stereotypical old curmugeon whom for whatever reason became more and more ill-tempered, close minded and set in their ways as they aged? Seems to me that warrants a loss of wisom if anything. That and it's not all that uncommon for mental faculties decline with age, so there should be plenty of characters out there that lose intelligence as they get older. What if I want to play my character becoming senile and forgetful as they get older? With the way the aging rules are set up this doesn't really work. And playing a senile old person could be fun if you are doing a somewhat humorous campaign. The conceit of the standard ruleset is that you are playing a game of heroic adventure. Typical fantasy heroes acquire wisdom as they get older and generally don't get senile unless it's a plot device to motivate the next generation of heroes or show off their hubris or something. As for charisma gained in age. I think whether a person should gain charisma as they age should have everything to do with what culture you are in.Charisma is the ability to manipulate people as well. It can be argued that life experience makes you better at that as you age. Perhaps depending on what society they are dealing with an aging person should have some sort of penalty or bonus on charisma rolls, rather than actually gaining or losing charisma? Any attempt to codify this would be way too complicated. This is what on-the-spot situational modifiers are for. Anyways I'm just curious what people think, or if anyone has made some custom rules for aging.Yes. Very simple: start at whatever age you want (within a sensible range, i.e. no children!), aging rules never apply. I've not really had any use for aging rules, so I give my players more flexibility in character creation by not enforcing them.