Alignment and Psychopathy, Chaotic Evil? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignment and Psychopathy, Chaotic Evil? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dimensional_Drifter
05-08-07, 09:17 PM I have been reading some articles on alignments and I have found something that comes up a lot in definitions of chaotic evil. This is that many equate psychopathy to chaotic evil. However, in my opinion, psychopaths tend not to fall under chaotic evil "the destroyer" but more along the lines of Cyric of the Forgotten Realms. So chaotic evil makes sense as far as I can tell. However, I would like some other people to give their thoughts on this, and perhaps some thoughts on the alignment of chaotic evil as well. Also would anyone suppose that it could be another alignment besides Chaotic Evil?

Psychopathy has been defined by Dr. Hervey M. Cleckley in The Mask of Sanity: An Attempt to Clarify Some Issues About the So-Called Psychopathic Personality as having the following traits:

1. Superficial charm and above average intelligence.
2. Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking.
3. Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations.
4. Unreliability.
5. Untruthfulness and insincerity.
6. Lack of remorse or shame.
7. Antisocial behavior without apparent compunction.
8. Poor judgment and failure to learn from experience.
9. Pathological egocentricity and incapacity to love.
10. General poverty in major affective reactions.
11. Specific loss of insight.
12. Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations.
13. Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink, and sometimes without.
14. Suicide threats rarely carried out.
15. Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated.
16. Failure to follow any life plan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#What_is_a_psychopath.3F
DarkNick
05-08-07, 09:30 PM Well, I think being a psychopath goes beyond alignment - it is more like a mental illness. You could be a LG psychopath that thinks they are doing everything for good reasons - like out of love or compassion. But then I think your alignment is determined more by your intentions rather than your actions.
Dimensional_Drifter
05-08-07, 09:39 PM Mental disorders going beyond alignment sounds very reasonable. However, I find psychopathy a disorder in which a person doesn't twist what they do into being good in their mind but that's because I kind of figured compassion or emotion was needed to have a concept of good. However, I do agree that in many cases psychological disorders could go beyond alignment.
Ogre4Hire
05-08-07, 09:45 PM Typically, NPCs with behaviors typical of psychopathy tend to be listed as NE, CE, or (rarely) CN.

Should I be scared by how many of those characteristics I have?;)
DarkNick
05-08-07, 09:52 PM I'm all for a loose definition of alignment - morality is a grey thing, so should alignment be indistinct. From a player perspective I think alignment should be self identified. So there could be many interpretations of the same thing. From a mechanics perpective I think alignment works best if you consider it as an intrinsic attribute that is measurable (and it is by spells) -but it is still just a guide to your actions, not a straight jacket.
Dimensional_Drifter
05-08-07, 10:08 PM I'm all for a loose definition of alignment - morality is a grey thing, so should alignment be indistinct. From a player perspective I think alignment should be self identified. So there could be many interpretations of the same thing. From a mechanics perpective I think alignment works best if you consider it as an intrinsic attribute - that is a guide to your actions, not a straight jacket.

This could be put to use in defining characters such as paladins as well. Lawful Good has been long considered by many as the "goody-two shoes, I must act only by a strict adherance to law and good no matter what circumstance" type of not only alignment but personality of such a character. Used in a way like that would very much be a straight jacket. Having chaotic evil as the "destroy all that I see, and have no regard for anything" would be the same. I suppose alignment is a misunderstood concept, and that too much importance is put on it. However, many outsiders, deities and such are very much defined by alignment, and planes of existence defined by alignment. Classes are restricted by alignment, and it does seem rather important at times. The idea for this topic simply came about after reading so many arguements on alignment. Indeed, a loose definition of alignment would be a better approach. I agree.
IRememberCecil
05-08-07, 10:15 PM As it stands, alignment is supposedly objective. Even if it weren't, people are still judged by their actions.

"Even if you think you're the paragon of Good, burning down that orphanage to satisfy your visceral urges was not a Good act. And trying to justify it with some crap about helping the less fortunate or defeating Evil is just lame. You're Evil, like me. Deal with it or GTFO."

That's what I'd say to your psychopath. I'm a sociopath myself and I made my peace with it. I know some people can't. I dance and laugh at their self-denial.
DarkNick
05-08-07, 11:24 PM This could be put to use in defining characters such as paladins as well. Lawful Good has been long considered by many as the "goody-two shoes, I must act only by a strict adherance to law and good no matter what circumstance" type of not only alignment but personality of such a character.

The way alignment and personality interact is really interesting. I somtimes wonder if you can have them as independent things. For example, can you have the CE person who is a real nice guy or a someone that is a LG bastard? I think you can to a point. A CE character is not that nice when he is torturing someone, but could conceivably be charming, witty and full of compliments at the dinner table.
Vaelan
05-08-07, 11:24 PM If these symptoms were the entirety of a person's personality, they would be Neutral Evil (Chaotic doesn't fit anywhere near as well as Neutral). But that is so unlikely to be the case when speaking of an actual person that it, along with this entire topic, barely even merits discussion.
KnH
05-09-07, 09:30 AM Well, psychopathy is pretty interesting. I'd be very tempted to say that psychopathy itself is TN. Everyone (well, everyone but actual Exalted characters, and sometimes even them) has elements of psychopathy. Its the rest of your alignment that matters.

Try it yourself- rate your PC between 0 and 2 for each of the following characteristics.

Superficial charm
Can pretend to be charming, and liked a lot by others
(Pull out the Diplomacy skill)
Grandiose sense of self worth
Thinks they're better than they are.
(Seriously, just about all PCs are like this)
Prone to bordeom
Again, most PCs.
Pathological lying
Can't help themselves lie- often lie for no reason
Cunning / Manipulative
Very good at making others do what they want
(Let me hear you say "Bluff" and "Diplomacy". Hey, Charm Person will do the trick.
Lack of remorse or guilt
Don't feel bad about what they do
Shallow Affect
They don't actually feel happy or sad or anything, and just pretend to.
Lack of empathy
Can't understand how other characters feel.
Parasitic life style
Live off other people, getting them to feed them etc.
Poor behaviour controls
Can't stop themselves doing stupid stuff.
Early behaviour problems

Lack of realistic long term goals
(Do you ever find yourself wandering around waiting for the next plot hook? And do you really think "marry the princess" is a realistic goal?)
Impulsivity
(Ever just wander off and do something stupid?)
Irresponsibility
(Seriously, how many of your PCs could actually hold down a job?)
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Many short term marital relationships
(Reallly depends on the campaign)
Juvenile delinquency
(Depends on backstory)
Revocation of conditional release
What this means is that they were let out of prison as long as they don't commit a certain type of crime, and then performed that crime again.
Criminal versatility
Doing many different forms of crime- burglary, murder, con artistry etc.

So, you have a score between 0 and 40. What does this mean? Well, look how high the score is. If its greater than 25, then its extremely likely the PC is a psycopath.

So you know, my current PC scores about 15 or so. Not bad, but definitely not great.

Remember, THIS IS NOT A DEFINITE WAY TO DETERMINE PSYCHOPATHY! Just in case people try this on people they know.

So, this sounds to me like TN- they just don't care about good or evil (Neutral), and they'll do whever it takes to help themselves (Neutral).

Source:
PCL-R (Psychopathy Check List - Revised): Robert Hare (1980) and follow up studies.
Aliquid
05-09-07, 12:02 PM Well, I think being a psychopath goes beyond alignment - it is more like a mental illness. You could be a LG psychopath that thinks they are doing everything for good reasons - like out of love or compassion.Completely disagree. First of all, a psychopath can not feel love or compassion.

I agree that psychopath = Chaotic Evil is a good description. When it comes down to it, I can't imagine a human acting CE who doesn't have a mental illness.

If these symptoms were the entirety of a person's personality, they would be Neutral Evil (Chaotic doesn't fit anywhere near as well as Neutral).
Well, psychopathy is pretty interesting. I'd be very tempted to say that psychopathy itself is TN. I would have to say CE or CN. Either way the character would be Chaotic.

Impulsivity, Irresponsibility, Poor judgment, Failure to follow any life plan, Untruthfulness and insincerity....

Those are all signs of a Chaotic nature.
Devil Gnasher
05-09-07, 08:15 PM I'd say any Evil. Irrationality, irresponsibility, blatant and pathological dishonesty and unrealistic goals are not Chaotic in nature. Even Lawful Evils can psychopaths. To me psychopathy and sociopathy are two of the many hallmarks of Evil alignment.
Aliquid
05-09-07, 08:29 PM I'd say any Evil. Irrationality, irresponsibility, blatant and pathological dishonesty and unrealistic goals are not Chaotic in nature. Even Lawful Evils can psychopaths. To me psychopathy and sociopathy are two of the many hallmarks of Evil alignment.I would have to completely disagree. By definition that's Chaotic and not Lawful

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability.
Vaelan
05-09-07, 08:39 PM Impulsivity, Irresponsibility, Poor judgment, Failure to follow any life plan, Untruthfulness and insincerity....

Those are all signs of a Chaotic nature.
According to whom?

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility.
I see... one trait shared between these lists. But then, I suppose that is to be expected since I'm pulling my list from the actual rules whereas you are pulling yours from a list of moronic stereotypes.

If you want to confine yourself solely to moronic stereotypes, I can refute your point on those grounds too.

2. Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking.
Chaotic characters are irrational morons!!eleventy1!

Let's take a look at the actual alignments were talking about. They often give examples that demonstrate the fact wide array of personalities can fit into a single alignment a bit better than the simple list of traits.

A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.
Or...

A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.

I'm not even going to go over these point-by-point. If you read them, it will be glaringly obvious that Neutral Evil is a better fit since it actually hits upon points that psychopathy encompasses whereas Chaotic Evil does not.
SpectacularFailure
05-09-07, 08:54 PM I wonder about characters having psychotic episodes, as is prone in most forms of mental illness. A character acting on impulses that he cannot control (mental illness) can not have his actions define his alignment.

I'd aliken this to a character commiting evil acts because he was under the effects of a hostile spell, although in this case the hostile caster is his own mind.

Could make for some interesting NPC's...the LG housemaid to the king, with a Bi-Polar split personality disorder that causes her to randomly add poison to all drinks with the cups touched by sunlight, during her tuesday mopping of the common room. Surely CE in her poisoning, but completely unaware in her everyday state.

So i'd ask how would you treat someones alignment who isnt fully aware of theri actions?
Dimensional_Drifter
05-09-07, 09:05 PM So i'd ask how would you treat someones alignment who isnt fully aware of theri actions?

If one isn't fully aware of his or her actions then I would say that alignment wouldn't matter. However in the case of psychopathy or sociapathy, one would be quite aware of one's actions. Whether or not this person has a concept of good or evil might be debatable on account of lack of compassion or emotion. On the other hand, dissociative identity disorder has different personalities entirely which would bring up the discussion about how alignment and personality would relate. With each a separate identity I would say split personalities are like different people with separate alignments as well.
Aliquid
05-09-07, 11:01 PM According to whom?according to the rules as written.

I see... one trait shared between these lists. But then, I suppose that is to be expected since I'm pulling my list from the actual rules whereas you are pulling yours from a list of moronic stereotypes..... um I quoted directly from the rules, and then compared that to two documented definitions of Psychopathy. Not quite sure what you think I am making up.

Chaotic characters are irrational morons!!eleventy1!Ok, let me explain a simple concept of logic to you.

If someone says "All irrational characters are Chaotic", it does not mean "All Chaotic characters are irrational". Big difference.

Lying, cheating, stealing, irrational behaviour... these are all chaotic acts. They most certainly are not Lawful acts. That doesn't mean that Chaotic characters must display these traits, but if a character does display these traits they are being chaotic.
Dimensional_Drifter
05-09-07, 11:49 PM For one, being irrational doesn't necessarily mean one is chaotic or not. Behavior that is reckless and irrational do however seem to be more chaotic than say lawful. Chaotic in the simplest definition is disordered. Thus, one would argue that lawful would then mean ordered, if in fact it is the opposite of chaotic. Lying, cheating, and stealing may therefore be lawful or chaotic, however, if irrational means contrary to reason; sensless, unreasonable, then would one say it is chaotic? In short, I do agree that irrational behavoir is a mark of chaotic characters, however that is no to say that other alignments are just as capable of irrationality.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I'd prefer if we all could voice our opinions and if we do disagree with one another, we can offer our opinions without cutting down anyone else's too much, ok? However I welcome constructive criticism nonetheless.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dimensional_Drifter 05-08-07, 09:17 PM	I have been reading some articles on alignments and I have found something that comes up a lot in definitions of chaotic evil. This is that many equate psychopathy to chaotic evil. However, in my opinion, psychopaths tend not to fall under chaotic evil "the destroyer" but more along the lines of Cyric of the Forgotten Realms. So chaotic evil makes sense as far as I can tell. However, I would like some other people to give their thoughts on this, and perhaps some thoughts on the alignment of chaotic evil as well. Also would anyone suppose that it could be another alignment besides Chaotic Evil? Psychopathy has been defined by Dr. Hervey M. Cleckley in The Mask of Sanity: An Attempt to Clarify Some Issues About the So-Called Psychopathic Personality as having the following traits: 1. Superficial charm and above average intelligence. 2. Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking. 3. Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations. 4. Unreliability. 5. Untruthfulness and insincerity. 6. Lack of remorse or shame. 7. Antisocial behavior without apparent compunction. 8. Poor judgment and failure to learn from experience. 9. Pathological egocentricity and incapacity to love. 10. General poverty in major affective reactions. 11. Specific loss of insight. 12. Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations. 13. Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink, and sometimes without. 14. Suicide threats rarely carried out. 15. Sex life impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated. 16. Failure to follow any life plan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#What_is_a_psychopath.3F
DarkNick 05-08-07, 09:30 PM	Well, I think being a psychopath goes beyond alignment - it is more like a mental illness. You could be a LG psychopath that thinks they are doing everything for good reasons - like out of love or compassion. But then I think your alignment is determined more by your intentions rather than your actions.
Dimensional_Drifter 05-08-07, 09:39 PM	Mental disorders going beyond alignment sounds very reasonable. However, I find psychopathy a disorder in which a person doesn't twist what they do into being good in their mind but that's because I kind of figured compassion or emotion was needed to have a concept of good. However, I do agree that in many cases psychological disorders could go beyond alignment.
Ogre4Hire 05-08-07, 09:45 PM	Typically, NPCs with behaviors typical of psychopathy tend to be listed as NE, CE, or (rarely) CN. Should I be scared by how many of those characteristics I have?;)
DarkNick 05-08-07, 09:52 PM	I'm all for a loose definition of alignment - morality is a grey thing, so should alignment be indistinct. From a player perspective I think alignment should be self identified. So there could be many interpretations of the same thing. From a mechanics perpective I think alignment works best if you consider it as an intrinsic attribute that is measurable (and it is by spells) -but it is still just a guide to your actions, not a straight jacket.
Dimensional_Drifter 05-08-07, 10:08 PM	I'm all for a loose definition of alignment - morality is a grey thing, so should alignment be indistinct. From a player perspective I think alignment should be self identified. So there could be many interpretations of the same thing. From a mechanics perpective I think alignment works best if you consider it as an intrinsic attribute - that is a guide to your actions, not a straight jacket. This could be put to use in defining characters such as paladins as well. Lawful Good has been long considered by many as the "goody-two shoes, I must act only by a strict adherance to law and good no matter what circumstance" type of not only alignment but personality of such a character. Used in a way like that would very much be a straight jacket. Having chaotic evil as the "destroy all that I see, and have no regard for anything" would be the same. I suppose alignment is a misunderstood concept, and that too much importance is put on it. However, many outsiders, deities and such are very much defined by alignment, and planes of existence defined by alignment. Classes are restricted by alignment, and it does seem rather important at times. The idea for this topic simply came about after reading so many arguements on alignment. Indeed, a loose definition of alignment would be a better approach. I agree.
IRememberCecil 05-08-07, 10:15 PM	As it stands, alignment is supposedly objective. Even if it weren't, people are still judged by their actions. "Even if you think you're the paragon of Good, burning down that orphanage to satisfy your visceral urges was not a Good act. And trying to justify it with some crap about helping the less fortunate or defeating Evil is just lame. You're Evil, like me. Deal with it or GTFO." That's what I'd say to your psychopath. I'm a sociopath myself and I made my peace with it. I know some people can't. I dance and laugh at their self-denial.
DarkNick 05-08-07, 11:24 PM	This could be put to use in defining characters such as paladins as well. Lawful Good has been long considered by many as the "goody-two shoes, I must act only by a strict adherance to law and good no matter what circumstance" type of not only alignment but personality of such a character. The way alignment and personality interact is really interesting. I somtimes wonder if you can have them as independent things. For example, can you have the CE person who is a real nice guy or a someone that is a LG bastard? I think you can to a point. A CE character is not that nice when he is torturing someone, but could conceivably be charming, witty and full of compliments at the dinner table.
Vaelan 05-08-07, 11:24 PM	If these symptoms were the entirety of a person's personality, they would be Neutral Evil (Chaotic doesn't fit anywhere near as well as Neutral). But that is so unlikely to be the case when speaking of an actual person that it, along with this entire topic, barely even merits discussion.
KnH 05-09-07, 09:30 AM	Well, psychopathy is pretty interesting. I'd be very tempted to say that psychopathy itself is TN. Everyone (well, everyone but actual Exalted characters, and sometimes even them) has elements of psychopathy. Its the rest of your alignment that matters. Try it yourself- rate your PC between 0 and 2 for each of the following characteristics. Superficial charm Can pretend to be charming, and liked a lot by others (Pull out the Diplomacy skill) Grandiose sense of self worth Thinks they're better than they are. (Seriously, just about all PCs are like this) Prone to bordeom Again, most PCs. Pathological lying Can't help themselves lie- often lie for no reason Cunning / Manipulative Very good at making others do what they want (Let me hear you say "Bluff" and "Diplomacy". Hey, Charm Person will do the trick. Lack of remorse or guilt Don't feel bad about what they do Shallow Affect They don't actually feel happy or sad or anything, and just pretend to. Lack of empathy Can't understand how other characters feel. Parasitic life style Live off other people, getting them to feed them etc. Poor behaviour controls Can't stop themselves doing stupid stuff. Early behaviour problems Lack of realistic long term goals (Do you ever find yourself wandering around waiting for the next plot hook? And do you really think "marry the princess" is a realistic goal?) Impulsivity (Ever just wander off and do something stupid?) Irresponsibility (Seriously, how many of your PCs could actually hold down a job?) Failure to accept responsibility for own actions Many short term marital relationships (Reallly depends on the campaign) Juvenile delinquency (Depends on backstory) Revocation of conditional release What this means is that they were let out of prison as long as they don't commit a certain type of crime, and then performed that crime again. Criminal versatility Doing many different forms of crime- burglary, murder, con artistry etc. So, you have a score between 0 and 40. What does this mean? Well, look how high the score is. If its greater than 25, then its extremely likely the PC is a psycopath. So you know, my current PC scores about 15 or so. Not bad, but definitely not great. Remember, THIS IS NOT A DEFINITE WAY TO DETERMINE PSYCHOPATHY! Just in case people try this on people they know. So, this sounds to me like TN- they just don't care about good or evil (Neutral), and they'll do whever it takes to help themselves (Neutral). Source: PCL-R (Psychopathy Check List - Revised): Robert Hare (1980) and follow up studies.
Aliquid 05-09-07, 12:02 PM	Well, I think being a psychopath goes beyond alignment - it is more like a mental illness. You could be a LG psychopath that thinks they are doing everything for good reasons - like out of love or compassion.Completely disagree. First of all, a psychopath can not feel love or compassion. I agree that psychopath = Chaotic Evil is a good description. When it comes down to it, I can't imagine a human acting CE who doesn't have a mental illness. If these symptoms were the entirety of a person's personality, they would be Neutral Evil (Chaotic doesn't fit anywhere near as well as Neutral). Well, psychopathy is pretty interesting. I'd be very tempted to say that psychopathy itself is TN. I would have to say CE or CN. Either way the character would be Chaotic. Impulsivity, Irresponsibility, Poor judgment, Failure to follow any life plan, Untruthfulness and insincerity.... Those are all signs of a Chaotic nature.
Devil Gnasher 05-09-07, 08:15 PM	I'd say any Evil. Irrationality, irresponsibility, blatant and pathological dishonesty and unrealistic goals are not Chaotic in nature. Even Lawful Evils can psychopaths. To me psychopathy and sociopathy are two of the many hallmarks of Evil alignment.
Aliquid 05-09-07, 08:29 PM	I'd say any Evil. Irrationality, irresponsibility, blatant and pathological dishonesty and unrealistic goals are not Chaotic in nature. Even Lawful Evils can psychopaths. To me psychopathy and sociopathy are two of the many hallmarks of Evil alignment.I would have to completely disagree. By definition that's Chaotic and not Lawful "Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability.
Vaelan 05-09-07, 08:39 PM	Impulsivity, Irresponsibility, Poor judgment, Failure to follow any life plan, Untruthfulness and insincerity.... Those are all signs of a Chaotic nature. According to whom? "Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. I see... one trait shared between these lists. But then, I suppose that is to be expected since I'm pulling my list from the actual rules whereas you are pulling yours from a list of moronic stereotypes. If you want to confine yourself solely to moronic stereotypes, I can refute your point on those grounds too. 2. Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking. Chaotic characters are irrational morons!!eleventy1! Let's take a look at the actual alignments were talking about. They often give examples that demonstrate the fact wide array of personalities can fit into a single alignment a bit better than the simple list of traits. A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has. Or... A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him. I'm not even going to go over these point-by-point. If you read them, it will be glaringly obvious that Neutral Evil is a better fit since it actually hits upon points that psychopathy encompasses whereas Chaotic Evil does not.
SpectacularFailure 05-09-07, 08:54 PM	I wonder about characters having psychotic episodes, as is prone in most forms of mental illness. A character acting on impulses that he cannot control (mental illness) can not have his actions define his alignment. I'd aliken this to a character commiting evil acts because he was under the effects of a hostile spell, although in this case the hostile caster is his own mind. Could make for some interesting NPC's...the LG housemaid to the king, with a Bi-Polar split personality disorder that causes her to randomly add poison to all drinks with the cups touched by sunlight, during her tuesday mopping of the common room. Surely CE in her poisoning, but completely unaware in her everyday state. So i'd ask how would you treat someones alignment who isnt fully aware of theri actions?
Dimensional_Drifter 05-09-07, 09:05 PM	So i'd ask how would you treat someones alignment who isnt fully aware of theri actions? If one isn't fully aware of his or her actions then I would say that alignment wouldn't matter. However in the case of psychopathy or sociapathy, one would be quite aware of one's actions. Whether or not this person has a concept of good or evil might be debatable on account of lack of compassion or emotion. On the other hand, dissociative identity disorder has different personalities entirely which would bring up the discussion about how alignment and personality would relate. With each a separate identity I would say split personalities are like different people with separate alignments as well.
Aliquid 05-09-07, 11:01 PM	According to whom?according to the rules as written. I see... one trait shared between these lists. But then, I suppose that is to be expected since I'm pulling my list from the actual rules whereas you are pulling yours from a list of moronic stereotypes..... um I quoted directly from the rules, and then compared that to two documented definitions of Psychopathy. Not quite sure what you think I am making up. Chaotic characters are irrational morons!!eleventy1!Ok, let me explain a simple concept of logic to you. If someone says "All irrational characters are Chaotic", it does not mean "All Chaotic characters are irrational". Big difference. Lying, cheating, stealing, irrational behaviour... these are all chaotic acts. They most certainly are not Lawful acts. That doesn't mean that Chaotic characters must display these traits, but if a character does display these traits they are being chaotic.
Dimensional_Drifter 05-09-07, 11:49 PM	For one, being irrational doesn't necessarily mean one is chaotic or not. Behavior that is reckless and irrational do however seem to be more chaotic than say lawful. Chaotic in the simplest definition is disordered. Thus, one would argue that lawful would then mean ordered, if in fact it is the opposite of chaotic. Lying, cheating, and stealing may therefore be lawful or chaotic, however, if irrational means contrary to reason; sensless, unreasonable, then would one say it is chaotic? In short, I do agree that irrational behavoir is a mark of chaotic characters, however that is no to say that other alignments are just as capable of irrationality. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I'd prefer if we all could voice our opinions and if we do disagree with one another, we can offer our opinions without cutting down anyone else's too much, ok? However I welcome constructive criticism nonetheless.