Alignment as a Horoscope [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignment as a Horoscope [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dreamstryder
10-16-06, 12:27 AM Perhaps someone's thought of this already, but here, a houserule idea:
Alignment is the cosmological tendency toward D&D planes of reality based on a black & white moral scheme, yeah? For those who enjoy non-fantasy morality in their fantasy games (like me), one might drop the whole system...but then you miss out on detect spells, some martial maneuvers, and align weapon, which open the door to some fun strategy, so why not we just snip the thread that connects morality with cosmology:

Replacing what designations mean: I tried to make it so one can still use the alignment abilities that change effect by alignment (like martial maneuvers) right out of the books, but if you're feeling ambitious (or use just things like Detect, Smite, and Align or don't mind making more types of alignment DR), you might take them in different directions, maybe even make more of them.
Good-Evil will be people skills, Lawful-Chaotic will be life management.
Evil => the mirror: tends away from thinking collectively and rather toward personal interests. They may be very competitive or just very inverted in their thinking and really not pay attentioon to others
Neutral => the sky: has no tendency in thinking socially, perhaps they've never thought much about themselves or others as units in a society (hermits?).
Good => the window: tends to think collectively more in comparison with personal interests. They may be selfless, or they may be anti-competitive.
Chaotic => the wind: Feels cramped by too many solid rules; may see a schedule as restrictions on time usage rather than organization of tasks.
Neutral => the field: Not cramped by rules or favoring them, perhaps they have a vary balanced way in which they approach matters, or they swing violently back and forth, perfectionist organizers at one thing, and very messy and haphazard in others (the arcane expert may keep his lab very tidy but let's it go when s/he comes home).
Lawful => the stone: needs rules to function in life; these are people who believe in & need guidelines or schedules to operate effectively.

Now we have options of what exactly alignment is aligned with:
~1~ Alignment is affiliation with the planes, not morality; the planes no longer represent morality but tendencies of character of those born under them.

You can keep the nature of the plane otherwise the same, which could create some interesting stigma for those born under Hells' Star or any other plane's sign, really (wouldn't you wnat a king who was born under the sing of the Seven Heavens?), but that would not mean the affore mentioned Hells' Star" youngster couldn't grow up to be a well-liked hero.
Alternatively, you could change the nature of the planes so that not all natives of Baator want to kick small fuzzy animals with iron cleats, though they're culture would have a strong tendency toward self-serving lawfulness.

~2~ Alignment is not affiliation with planes but a birthed-under sign (a zodiac of times of the year (Greek), years of a cycle (Chinese), or day of the week, or whatnot. Since alignment has two components, we need a pair of signs (x day, y season; g season, h year; or some other combo). Being fantasy, you can make up your own calendar (not even all cultures on earth used 7-day weeks; somebody used 10-day ones...).

Changing Alignment in strange & magical ways (like reading magical tombs or something): fine. Changing alignment from acting differently? Well, if your alignment is your horoscope, then your alignment does not change with your actions; if you really don't want to play in anyway tinged by your horoscope subscription, then...well, why'd you pick it? or maybe you want to consider playing a horoscopic black sheep.

"So how's LG's love-life looking this week, Jim?"
Seeker95
10-16-06, 06:56 AM Stop. Do not write anything more. Not one single word. This is a very good idea, and you must, absolutely MUST write this up in greater detail for publication in Dragon magazine.

If you choose to ignore this instruction, please continue to develop this absolutely wonderful line of thought a bit more fully and let me steal it for use in my own campaign.

:tiphat:
Stev Beren
10-16-06, 07:02 AM Interesting system. But of course the problem you mention only really exists if you try to turn alignment into more than it is and something other than it is. .
Dreamstryder
10-17-06, 04:25 AM The black & white moral scheme is the problem for a number of people (judging from posts). One sign of this is the physical planar dwellers being, supposedly good, chaos, etc. incarnate.

~3~Want alignment to reflect relative morality (not horoscope or b&w morality)? No one is evil but actions in contexts can be, and these deeds can stain the person (& even the place or the item used in the act) an alignment. That also means that detect spells would show varying gradations of whatever you're looking for, which makes it entertaining when someone right by you suddenly flushed a big blip on your radar ("what did you just do?"). So you too can be "aligned with the forces of [insert stuff here: Law, Neutrality, Ice Cream Pies]," but you'd be making a more abstract statement. There's also some kind of cosmological mystery then over what stained the outer planes so strongly...
Stev Beren
10-17-06, 07:05 AM The black & white moral scheme is the problem for a number of people (judging from posts). One sign of this is the physical planar dwellers being, supposedly good, chaos, etc. incarnate.

~3~Want alignment to reflect relative morality (not horoscope or b&w morality)? No one is evil but actions in contexts can be, and these deeds can stain the person (& even the place or the item used in the act) an alignment. That also means that detect spells would show varying gradations of whatever you're looking for, which makes it entertaining when someone right by you suddenly flushed a big blip on your radar ("what did you just do?"). So you too can be "aligned with the forces of [insert stuff here: Law, Neutrality, Ice Cream Pies]," but you'd be making a more abstract statement. There's also some kind of cosmological mystery then over what stained the outer planes so strongly...

There are people that are, indeed, pure evil.
However much you might not want there to be.
Chicharron
10-18-06, 08:52 AM There are people that are, indeed, pure evil.
However much you might not want there to be.

Evil, good, law, chaos...

These are inventions of necessity. There is no one that is "pure evil". Certain actions of that person may be. Just like there is no "pure good".

That's why the alignment system is so difficult to enjoy for some of us. It tries to make a definition of morality. When, for many of us, there is none. Morality is not an absolute. It's dynamic. As the OP said, he/she is looking to reflect relative morality...the only kind there is.

I personally think the OP has something going here, and I would like to see it elaborated upon.
Dreamstryder
10-26-06, 08:31 PM The purpose of imaginary b&w morality in D&D is a flavor thing, supposedly resembling an antique worldview (in cases the alignments were toward different religious divisions in the European Dark Ages; a bunch of Lawful people killing each other over who was "being Good" correctly or not), but not all care for it. I'm trying to offer an alternative on which to base certain game mechanics, which may or may not replace moral alignment. The key to filling alignment's mechanic niche with horoscope is providing good and bad traits for each designation and offering descriptions to inspire whoever's playing character's personality (rather than define the character's current morality). Submitting this more fleshed-out to Dragon would be fun, but right now I want to see what people think, if they can help me better these ideas.

~Elements~ (dealing with pairs from sets of 3)
G-[S]pirit: caring, nurturing, but could too self-sacrificial or naive
E-[F]ire: determined, active (not passive), but could be too selfish or destructive
N-[W]ater: range of temperaments from calm to tempestuous, but could be aloof or indecisive
L-[E]arth: constant, organized, and loyal, but could be too rigid, stubborn, or busy-bodied
C-[A]ir: flexible, not self-restrictive, but could be fickle or irresponsible

Each person has 2 elements; it is certainly possible to have a horoscope different from your alignment (if you use both, in which case you may want to decide whether alignment/morality or horoscope/personality determines those special spells & abilities). You could have a Fire, Earth horoscope but be LG, or be an Air type who believes in Law but has trouble managing himself to match his beliefs.

You could give fun names to elemental pairs:
the Oak/Pine(ES) the Child(WS) the Favor(AS)
the Judge/Scales(EW) the Sea(W) the Zephyr(AW)
the Volcano(EF) the Charger/Beast(WF) the Foxfire(AF)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dreamstryder 10-16-06, 12:27 AM	Perhaps someone's thought of this already, but here, a houserule idea: Alignment is the cosmological tendency toward D&D planes of reality based on a black & white moral scheme, yeah? For those who enjoy non-fantasy morality in their fantasy games (like me), one might drop the whole system...but then you miss out on detect spells, some martial maneuvers, and align weapon, which open the door to some fun strategy, so why not we just snip the thread that connects morality with cosmology: Replacing what designations mean: I tried to make it so one can still use the alignment abilities that change effect by alignment (like martial maneuvers) right out of the books, but if you're feeling ambitious (or use just things like Detect, Smite, and Align or don't mind making more types of alignment DR), you might take them in different directions, maybe even make more of them. Good-Evil will be people skills, Lawful-Chaotic will be life management. Evil => the mirror: tends away from thinking collectively and rather toward personal interests. They may be very competitive or just very inverted in their thinking and really not pay attentioon to others Neutral => the sky: has no tendency in thinking socially, perhaps they've never thought much about themselves or others as units in a society (hermits?). Good => the window: tends to think collectively more in comparison with personal interests. They may be selfless, or they may be anti-competitive. Chaotic => the wind: Feels cramped by too many solid rules; may see a schedule as restrictions on time usage rather than organization of tasks. Neutral => the field: Not cramped by rules or favoring them, perhaps they have a vary balanced way in which they approach matters, or they swing violently back and forth, perfectionist organizers at one thing, and very messy and haphazard in others (the arcane expert may keep his lab very tidy but let's it go when s/he comes home). Lawful => the stone: needs rules to function in life; these are people who believe in & need guidelines or schedules to operate effectively. Now we have options of what exactly alignment is aligned with: ~1~ Alignment is affiliation with the planes, not morality; the planes no longer represent morality but tendencies of character of those born under them. You can keep the nature of the plane otherwise the same, which could create some interesting stigma for those born under Hells' Star or any other plane's sign, really (wouldn't you wnat a king who was born under the sing of the Seven Heavens?), but that would not mean the affore mentioned Hells' Star" youngster couldn't grow up to be a well-liked hero. Alternatively, you could change the nature of the planes so that not all natives of Baator want to kick small fuzzy animals with iron cleats, though they're culture would have a strong tendency toward self-serving lawfulness. ~2~ Alignment is not affiliation with planes but a birthed-under sign (a zodiac of times of the year (Greek), years of a cycle (Chinese), or day of the week, or whatnot. Since alignment has two components, we need a pair of signs (x day, y season; g season, h year; or some other combo). Being fantasy, you can make up your own calendar (not even all cultures on earth used 7-day weeks; somebody used 10-day ones...). Changing Alignment in strange & magical ways (like reading magical tombs or something): fine. Changing alignment from acting differently? Well, if your alignment is your horoscope, then your alignment does not change with your actions; if you really don't want to play in anyway tinged by your horoscope subscription, then...well, why'd you pick it? or maybe you want to consider playing a horoscopic black sheep. "So how's LG's love-life looking this week, Jim?"
Seeker95 10-16-06, 06:56 AM	Stop. Do not write anything more. Not one single word. This is a very good idea, and you must, absolutely MUST write this up in greater detail for publication in Dragon magazine. If you choose to ignore this instruction, please continue to develop this absolutely wonderful line of thought a bit more fully and let me steal it for use in my own campaign. :tiphat:
Stev Beren 10-16-06, 07:02 AM	Interesting system. But of course the problem you mention only really exists if you try to turn alignment into more than it is and something other than it is. .
Dreamstryder 10-17-06, 04:25 AM	The black & white moral scheme is the problem for a number of people (judging from posts). One sign of this is the physical planar dwellers being, supposedly good, chaos, etc. incarnate. ~3~Want alignment to reflect relative morality (not horoscope or b&w morality)? No one is evil but actions in contexts can be, and these deeds can stain the person (& even the place or the item used in the act) an alignment. That also means that detect spells would show varying gradations of whatever you're looking for, which makes it entertaining when someone right by you suddenly flushed a big blip on your radar ("what did you just do?"). So you too can be "aligned with the forces of [insert stuff here: Law, Neutrality, Ice Cream Pies]," but you'd be making a more abstract statement. There's also some kind of cosmological mystery then over what stained the outer planes so strongly...
Stev Beren 10-17-06, 07:05 AM	The black & white moral scheme is the problem for a number of people (judging from posts). One sign of this is the physical planar dwellers being, supposedly good, chaos, etc. incarnate. ~3~Want alignment to reflect relative morality (not horoscope or b&w morality)? No one is evil but actions in contexts can be, and these deeds can stain the person (& even the place or the item used in the act) an alignment. That also means that detect spells would show varying gradations of whatever you're looking for, which makes it entertaining when someone right by you suddenly flushed a big blip on your radar ("what did you just do?"). So you too can be "aligned with the forces of [insert stuff here: Law, Neutrality, Ice Cream Pies]," but you'd be making a more abstract statement. There's also some kind of cosmological mystery then over what stained the outer planes so strongly... There are people that are, indeed, pure evil. However much you might not want there to be.
Chicharron 10-18-06, 08:52 AM	There are people that are, indeed, pure evil. However much you might not want there to be. Evil, good, law, chaos... These are inventions of necessity. There is no one that is "pure evil". Certain actions of that person may be. Just like there is no "pure good". That's why the alignment system is so difficult to enjoy for some of us. It tries to make a definition of morality. When, for many of us, there is none. Morality is not an absolute. It's dynamic. As the OP said, he/she is looking to reflect relative morality...the only kind there is. I personally think the OP has something going here, and I would like to see it elaborated upon.
Dreamstryder 10-26-06, 08:31 PM	The purpose of imaginary b&w morality in D&D is a flavor thing, supposedly resembling an antique worldview (in cases the alignments were toward different religious divisions in the European Dark Ages; a bunch of Lawful people killing each other over who was "being Good" correctly or not), but not all care for it. I'm trying to offer an alternative on which to base certain game mechanics, which may or may not replace moral alignment. The key to filling alignment's mechanic niche with horoscope is providing good and bad traits for each designation and offering descriptions to inspire whoever's playing character's personality (rather than define the character's current morality). Submitting this more fleshed-out to Dragon would be fun, but right now I want to see what people think, if they can help me better these ideas. ~Elements~ (dealing with pairs from sets of 3) G-[S]pirit: caring, nurturing, but could too self-sacrificial or naive E-[F]ire: determined, active (not passive), but could be too selfish or destructive N-[W]ater: range of temperaments from calm to tempestuous, but could be aloof or indecisive L-[E]arth: constant, organized, and loyal, but could be too rigid, stubborn, or busy-bodied C-[A]ir: flexible, not self-restrictive, but could be fickle or irresponsible Each person has 2 elements; it is certainly possible to have a horoscope different from your alignment (if you use both, in which case you may want to decide whether alignment/morality or horoscope/personality determines those special spells & abilities). You could have a Fire, Earth horoscope but be LG, or be an Air type who believes in Law but has trouble managing himself to match his beliefs. You could give fun names to elemental pairs: the Oak/Pine(ES) the Child(WS) the Favor(AS) the Judge/Scales(EW) the Sea(W) the Zephyr(AW) the Volcano(EF) the Charger/Beast(WF) the Foxfire(AF)