Alignment change question. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignment change question. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
chronocrosselite
06-17-07, 10:16 PM a player of mine who was CN killed another players char in their sleep. the player tha died went into a mindless frenzy and killed the cleric of the group.

this is why the CN player killed the Frenzied Berserker in his sleep.

now would this warrent an alignment change to CE? or would an alignment change be more gradual? or instant?

i figured alignment changes were gradual unless you did something like kill off an entire village or if you were evil maybe saving the entire village for no gain.
Millennium
06-17-07, 10:21 PM a player of mine who was CN killed another players char in their sleep. the player tha died went into a mindless frenzy and killed the cleric of the group.

this is why the CN player killed the Frenzied Berserker in his sleep.
Let me make sure I understand this: the FB went into a mindless frenzy and killed the cleric, so the CN character waited until the FB fell asleep and killed him as revenge. Is this right?
now would this warrent an alignment change to CE? or would an alignment change be more gradual? or instant?
By itself, this might not warrant an instant change, though it could be the start (or perhaps the endpoint) of something more gradual. Watch the character carefully, and see if this is part of a pattern of behavior.
i figured alignment changes were gradual unless you did something like kill off an entire village or if you were evil maybe saving the entire village for no gain.
In theory, yes; they're supposed to be this way.
chronocrosselite
06-17-07, 10:25 PM yea the CN char killed the FB in his sleep saying she was basically scared he might do it again. and yea i wrrite down everything she does off alighment. as with everyone else
calronmoonflower
06-17-07, 11:42 PM Sounds like a Steve. He is behaving is a chaotic stupid manner and screwing over the other players and as you didn't list a reason seems to indicate that he had any.

Seems like chaotic stupid behavior.

[edit] Reread the original post.

He did have a reason, just not a good one. The act was chaotic in nature, but maybe not an evil one. One act alone is rarely enough to change alignments and this should not qualify as one of them.

I would suggest that in the future that no PC play a Frenzied Berserker, or you have the wizard keep a few Summon Monster spells ready for emergencies.

I'm surprised with the big deal that many made over stabbing an evil cleric in their sleep is evil, but for doing the same with someone that cannot help what they do in a rage is fine.
pres_man
06-18-07, 12:16 AM That wouldn't have any alignment consequences. Maybe for a LG character it might seem a bit merciless or dishonorable, but it is not evil by a far shot. And if the party is a lawless area then there might not even be any legal consequences.

Having said that, in future I would strongly suggest that:
*You do not allow the Frenzied Berserker class as it tends to cause these types of problems to arise.
*You suggest to the players that most non-evil beings would probably prefer to abandon a companion that has turned to be too dangerous to be around then to actually kill them, especially if they aren't going out of their way to harm party members (the FB abilities cause these things and is not always in a controled fashion at least in game).
Seeker95
06-18-07, 08:52 AM No alignment change. Perhaps a crime of passion, but not likely to indicate evil.
CryoSilver
06-18-07, 09:39 AM A Chaotic Good character would probably have just run away, or woken the rest of the party and abandoned the FB if it came down to that, but a CN rogue killing a percieved danger in the safest manner possible? What's wrong with that?

If I had the opportunity to kill the guy who's extremely likely to go into an uncontrollable homicidal rage several times a day, I'd take it.
Astron the Wizard
06-18-07, 11:45 AM If I had the opportunity to kill the guy who's extremely likely to go into an uncontrollable homicidal rage several times a day, I'd take it.

So would I. No alignment change, I say.
tete
06-18-07, 01:31 PM I wouldn't have one event make you change alignment but I would say this character has started down the path to NE not CE. The Rogue thought this out and decided this was the right course of action and waited for a time when the FB would be defenseless. Sounds pretty NE to me.
CryoSilver
06-18-07, 01:42 PM How is it evil? Just because the FB couldn't fight back? How is that different than sneaking up on a guard and sneak attacking him invisibly?
tete
06-18-07, 01:53 PM its premeditated murder... doing the same to a guard is just as evil.
CryoSilver
06-18-07, 02:07 PM its premeditated murder... doing the same to a guard is just as evil.

So is charging into the orc cavern and killing them to take their stuff, but such is the fare of most adventurers. The frenzied berserker is/was as much a danger to the rogue and those around as said orcs.
tete
06-18-07, 02:11 PM thus he is on the path to NE... hes not there yet but the act itself was NE. Charging a bunch of poor orcs just trying to move along is NE as well, even if mandated by Pelor the act itself of attacking the defenseless with intent to kill is NE. A lot of NE acts have been done in the name of good, it doesn't make the people instantly NE but it does make doing other NE acts easier with each one.
CryoSilver
06-18-07, 02:27 PM Just like it becomes easier to save puppies with each one you save.
Holy_Beholder
06-18-07, 02:56 PM I'm surprised with the big deal that many made over stabbing an evil cleric in their sleep is evil, but for doing the same with someone that cannot help what they do in a rage is fine.

Well, a paladin did that without Detect evil, and when you take paladins and alignment, everything is a big deal.
Kouk
06-18-07, 03:27 PM If you choose to use alignment as the strict black and white, cosmic good vs. evil, then whether or not killing the Frenzied Berserker was evil would depend on the alignment of the Frenzied Berserker. Same with the band of orcs.

Even so, most people consider intent along with that because it is hard to understand in today's society.

The act sounds fairly consistent with a CN or NE/CE alignment. He perceives a threat, and he solves it in the most convenient and surest way possible.

If there obviously was no threat to his life, or, he just wanted to kill the FB to take his stuff for himself, then that would be more clearly evil, I think.

You might even be able to perceive these actions as Lawful Neutral, in that he methodically took revenge for a teammate. That would be a slight stretch, but I guess it would depend on what exactly transpired.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
chronocrosselite 06-17-07, 10:16 PM	a player of mine who was CN killed another players char in their sleep. the player tha died went into a mindless frenzy and killed the cleric of the group. this is why the CN player killed the Frenzied Berserker in his sleep. now would this warrent an alignment change to CE? or would an alignment change be more gradual? or instant? i figured alignment changes were gradual unless you did something like kill off an entire village or if you were evil maybe saving the entire village for no gain.
Millennium 06-17-07, 10:21 PM	a player of mine who was CN killed another players char in their sleep. the player tha died went into a mindless frenzy and killed the cleric of the group. this is why the CN player killed the Frenzied Berserker in his sleep. Let me make sure I understand this: the FB went into a mindless frenzy and killed the cleric, so the CN character waited until the FB fell asleep and killed him as revenge. Is this right? now would this warrent an alignment change to CE? or would an alignment change be more gradual? or instant? By itself, this might not warrant an instant change, though it could be the start (or perhaps the endpoint) of something more gradual. Watch the character carefully, and see if this is part of a pattern of behavior. i figured alignment changes were gradual unless you did something like kill off an entire village or if you were evil maybe saving the entire village for no gain. In theory, yes; they're supposed to be this way.
chronocrosselite 06-17-07, 10:25 PM	yea the CN char killed the FB in his sleep saying she was basically scared he might do it again. and yea i wrrite down everything she does off alighment. as with everyone else
calronmoonflower 06-17-07, 11:42 PM	Sounds like a Steve. He is behaving is a chaotic stupid manner and screwing over the other players and as you didn't list a reason seems to indicate that he had any. Seems like chaotic stupid behavior. [edit] Reread the original post. He did have a reason, just not a good one. The act was chaotic in nature, but maybe not an evil one. One act alone is rarely enough to change alignments and this should not qualify as one of them. I would suggest that in the future that no PC play a Frenzied Berserker, or you have the wizard keep a few Summon Monster spells ready for emergencies. I'm surprised with the big deal that many made over stabbing an evil cleric in their sleep is evil, but for doing the same with someone that cannot help what they do in a rage is fine.
pres_man 06-18-07, 12:16 AM	That wouldn't have any alignment consequences. Maybe for a LG character it might seem a bit merciless or dishonorable, but it is not evil by a far shot. And if the party is a lawless area then there might not even be any legal consequences. Having said that, in future I would strongly suggest that: You do not allow the Frenzied Berserker class as it tends to cause these types of problems to arise. You suggest to the players that most non-evil beings would probably prefer to abandon a companion that has turned to be too dangerous to be around then to actually kill them, especially if they aren't going out of their way to harm party members (the FB abilities cause these things and is not always in a controled fashion at least in game).
Seeker95 06-18-07, 08:52 AM	No alignment change. Perhaps a crime of passion, but not likely to indicate evil.
CryoSilver 06-18-07, 09:39 AM	A Chaotic Good character would probably have just run away, or woken the rest of the party and abandoned the FB if it came down to that, but a CN rogue killing a percieved danger in the safest manner possible? What's wrong with that? If I had the opportunity to kill the guy who's extremely likely to go into an uncontrollable homicidal rage several times a day, I'd take it.
Astron the Wizard 06-18-07, 11:45 AM	If I had the opportunity to kill the guy who's extremely likely to go into an uncontrollable homicidal rage several times a day, I'd take it. So would I. No alignment change, I say.
tete 06-18-07, 01:31 PM	I wouldn't have one event make you change alignment but I would say this character has started down the path to NE not CE. The Rogue thought this out and decided this was the right course of action and waited for a time when the FB would be defenseless. Sounds pretty NE to me.
CryoSilver 06-18-07, 01:42 PM	How is it evil? Just because the FB couldn't fight back? How is that different than sneaking up on a guard and sneak attacking him invisibly?
tete 06-18-07, 01:53 PM	its premeditated murder... doing the same to a guard is just as evil.
CryoSilver 06-18-07, 02:07 PM	its premeditated murder... doing the same to a guard is just as evil. So is charging into the orc cavern and killing them to take their stuff, but such is the fare of most adventurers. The frenzied berserker is/was as much a danger to the rogue and those around as said orcs.
tete 06-18-07, 02:11 PM	thus he is on the path to NE... hes not there yet but the act itself was NE. Charging a bunch of poor orcs just trying to move along is NE as well, even if mandated by Pelor the act itself of attacking the defenseless with intent to kill is NE. A lot of NE acts have been done in the name of good, it doesn't make the people instantly NE but it does make doing other NE acts easier with each one.
CryoSilver 06-18-07, 02:27 PM	Just like it becomes easier to save puppies with each one you save.
Holy_Beholder 06-18-07, 02:56 PM	I'm surprised with the big deal that many made over stabbing an evil cleric in their sleep is evil, but for doing the same with someone that cannot help what they do in a rage is fine. Well, a paladin did that without Detect evil, and when you take paladins and alignment, everything is a big deal.
Kouk 06-18-07, 03:27 PM	If you choose to use alignment as the strict black and white, cosmic good vs. evil, then whether or not killing the Frenzied Berserker was evil would depend on the alignment of the Frenzied Berserker. Same with the band of orcs. Even so, most people consider intent along with that because it is hard to understand in today's society. The act sounds fairly consistent with a CN or NE/CE alignment. He perceives a threat, and he solves it in the most convenient and surest way possible. If there obviously was no threat to his life, or, he just wanted to kill the FB to take his stuff for himself, then that would be more clearly evil, I think. You might even be able to perceive these actions as Lawful Neutral, in that he methodically took revenge for a teammate. That would be a slight stretch, but I guess it would depend on what exactly transpired.