Alignment favoritism? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignment favoritism? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SearcherOmega
09-21-04, 12:51 AM Is it just me, or does Wizards completely shaft Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil characters? So many of the 'counter-evil' classes -- especially prestige ones -- require Lawful Good as an alignment. Many of the 'evil' classes require nonlawful alignments, or Chaotic Evil directly.

Don't believe me? Just take a peek into the Book of Exalted Deeds and Core classes:

Lawful Good Classes -

Celestial Mystic - LG. Paladin - LG. Defender of Sealtiel - LG. Emissary of Barachiel - LG. Fist of Raziel - LG. Initiate of Pistis Sophia - LG. Prophet of Erathaol - LG. Slayer of Domiel - LG. Vassal of Bahamut - LG.

Chaotic Good Classes -

Troubadour of Stars: CG. Champion of Gwynharwyf: CG.

Holy Bard and Holy Barbarian. Oh boy, we're having fun now. :rolleyes:

I notice while there's several classes specifically designed to target Demons and Chaotic Evil entities, there's no 'Devil Slayers' and 'Devil-Hunting' classes. Chaotic Good, on the other hand, goes completely unappreciated.

Chaotic Good is supposed to be the essence of tolerance and free thought, of accepting another even when society won't. Without Chaotic Good, women couldn't vote, and we'd still have slaves. They're the ones who won't just stand aside and shake their head in dismay when the status quo supports evil. Yet all the power is laid in the hands of the Lawful Good characters. I swear I'm going to go nuts here.

Why does this bother me so much? Specifically because I'm trying to create a campaign with a pretty well defined Chaotic Good VS Lawful Evil theme. The severe shortage of classes with a Chaotic Good vein makes it really irritating, though. Why do they have 'Demon Slaying' and 'Righteous Defender' style classes for Lawful Good, but no 'Tyrant Slayer' or 'Liberator' classes for Chaotic Good? Mechanus proves pretty clearly that Law is an independent component from Good or Evil -- It can be used for discipline, it can be used for tyranny. Why does WotC keep beefing up the options for Lawful Good characters?

*Whew* Thank you for listening to my rant, nonsensical though it may be.
Incenjucar
09-21-04, 03:54 AM Alignment favoritism tends to shift between books and editions.

In dungeon-oriented editions (1e, 3e), it tends to be all about LG and CE. In more communicative editions (2e), it tends to be CG and LE.

This tendancy also tends to follow on suppliments that have similar natures.

If you have a black and white view in a book, you'll get LG/CE. If you have a gray area, you'll get CG/LE.
Henchcritter
09-21-04, 10:02 AM Chaotic Good is supposed to be the essence of tolerance and free thought, of accepting another even when society won't. Without Chaotic Good, women couldn't vote, and we'd still have slaves. They're the ones who won't just stand aside and shake their head in dismay when the status quo supports evil. Yet all the power is laid in the hands of the Lawful Good characters. I swear I'm going to go nuts here.
*Whew* Thank you for listening to my rant, nonsensical though it may be.I disagree. CG means you love your own freedom and can't stand to see innocents hurt or oppressed. CG does not mean you limit your own freedom by see it as your responsibility to spread freedom. Remember irresponsibility is also part of the chaotic alignment and championing causes severely limits your freedom. Therefore, characters that truly champion freedom aren't truly chaotic, it becomes an non-chaotic character championing a chaotic cause.

Hench http://cgi.ncrv.nl/cgi/ncrv/stand/images/smiles/regen2.gif
Marchen
09-21-04, 02:23 PM I hate prestige classes, so this doesn't bother me at all.
SearcherOmega
09-21-04, 02:51 PM I disagree. CG means you love your own freedom and can't stand to see innocents hurt or oppressed. CG does not mean you limit your own freedom by see it as your responsibility to spread freedom. Remember irresponsibility is also part of the chaotic alignment and championing causes severely limits your freedom. Therefore, characters that truly champion freedom aren't truly chaotic, it becomes an non-chaotic character championing a chaotic cause.

Hench http://cgi.ncrv.nl/cgi/ncrv/stand/images/smiles/regen2.gif

While sometimes Chaos manifests itself as irresponsibility, this is only one facet of the concept. Many CG characters are irresponsible or self-interested, and in that sense you are correct. However, CG is a behavioral pattern, not a personality type. The ranger who way-lays the evil baron's tax collectors is shouldering responsibility on himself to impose his own moral compass on the world, and is rather outspoken in his manners of doing so.

Note that while the PHB says that Law can include 'Close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalism, and lack of adapability', very, very few LG characters display these traits. Why?

In general, it is assumed that Good aligned characters portray, for the most part, the positive aspects of either Law, Neutrality, or Chaos. Lawful Good characters are Honorable, Trustworthy, Obedient, and Reliable. Some LG characters may have a few of the traits listed above, but virtually none of them would portray all these aspects. Which facets of Law they portray is defined by their personality and unique perspective.

Furthermore, consider possible definitions of 'irresponsible':
Irresponsible

adj : showing lack of care for consequences; "behaved like an irresponsible idiot"; "hasty and irresponsible action"

A spontaneous character can be both Good (desiring to do right) and Chaotic (showing lack of discipline, being rash). The students who uprose against the aristocratic tyranny of a government in Les Miserables by barricading the streets and protesting were Chaotic Good. In that sense, a self-appointed slayer of tyrants could be rash (you're going against an entire palace full of guards? Doesn't that qualify as... um... stupid?) but good.

Unless, of course, you make all your Lawful Good characters be tradition-worshipping, uptight pricks from now on.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SearcherOmega 09-21-04, 12:51 AM	Is it just me, or does Wizards completely shaft Chaotic Good and Lawful Evil characters? So many of the 'counter-evil' classes -- especially prestige ones -- require Lawful Good as an alignment. Many of the 'evil' classes require nonlawful alignments, or Chaotic Evil directly. Don't believe me? Just take a peek into the Book of Exalted Deeds and Core classes: Lawful Good Classes - Celestial Mystic - LG. Paladin - LG. Defender of Sealtiel - LG. Emissary of Barachiel - LG. Fist of Raziel - LG. Initiate of Pistis Sophia - LG. Prophet of Erathaol - LG. Slayer of Domiel - LG. Vassal of Bahamut - LG. Chaotic Good Classes - Troubadour of Stars: CG. Champion of Gwynharwyf: CG. Holy Bard and Holy Barbarian. Oh boy, we're having fun now. :rolleyes: I notice while there's several classes specifically designed to target Demons and Chaotic Evil entities, there's no 'Devil Slayers' and 'Devil-Hunting' classes. Chaotic Good, on the other hand, goes completely unappreciated. Chaotic Good is supposed to be the essence of tolerance and free thought, of accepting another even when society won't. Without Chaotic Good, women couldn't vote, and we'd still have slaves. They're the ones who won't just stand aside and shake their head in dismay when the status quo supports evil. Yet all the power is laid in the hands of the Lawful Good characters. I swear I'm going to go nuts here. Why does this bother me so much? Specifically because I'm trying to create a campaign with a pretty well defined Chaotic Good VS Lawful Evil theme. The severe shortage of classes with a Chaotic Good vein makes it really irritating, though. Why do they have 'Demon Slaying' and 'Righteous Defender' style classes for Lawful Good, but no 'Tyrant Slayer' or 'Liberator' classes for Chaotic Good? Mechanus proves pretty clearly that Law is an independent component from Good or Evil -- It can be used for discipline, it can be used for tyranny. Why does WotC keep beefing up the options for Lawful Good characters? Whew Thank you for listening to my rant, nonsensical though it may be.
Incenjucar 09-21-04, 03:54 AM	Alignment favoritism tends to shift between books and editions. In dungeon-oriented editions (1e, 3e), it tends to be all about LG and CE. In more communicative editions (2e), it tends to be CG and LE. This tendancy also tends to follow on suppliments that have similar natures. If you have a black and white view in a book, you'll get LG/CE. If you have a gray area, you'll get CG/LE.
Henchcritter 09-21-04, 10:02 AM	Chaotic Good is supposed to be the essence of tolerance and free thought, of accepting another even when society won't. Without Chaotic Good, women couldn't vote, and we'd still have slaves. They're the ones who won't just stand aside and shake their head in dismay when the status quo supports evil. Yet all the power is laid in the hands of the Lawful Good characters. I swear I'm going to go nuts here. Whew Thank you for listening to my rant, nonsensical though it may be.I disagree. CG means you love your own freedom and can't stand to see innocents hurt or oppressed. CG does not mean you limit your own freedom by see it as your responsibility to spread freedom. Remember irresponsibility is also part of the chaotic alignment and championing causes severely limits your freedom. Therefore, characters that truly champion freedom aren't truly chaotic, it becomes an non-chaotic character championing a chaotic cause. Hench http://cgi.ncrv.nl/cgi/ncrv/stand/images/smiles/regen2.gif
Marchen 09-21-04, 02:23 PM	I hate prestige classes, so this doesn't bother me at all.
SearcherOmega 09-21-04, 02:51 PM	I disagree. CG means you love your own freedom and can't stand to see innocents hurt or oppressed. CG does not mean you limit your own freedom by see it as your responsibility to spread freedom. Remember irresponsibility is also part of the chaotic alignment and championing causes severely limits your freedom. Therefore, characters that truly champion freedom aren't truly chaotic, it becomes an non-chaotic character championing a chaotic cause. Hench http://cgi.ncrv.nl/cgi/ncrv/stand/images/smiles/regen2.gif While sometimes Chaos manifests itself as irresponsibility, this is only one facet of the concept. Many CG characters are irresponsible or self-interested, and in that sense you are correct. However, CG is a behavioral pattern, not a personality type. The ranger who way-lays the evil baron's tax collectors is shouldering responsibility on himself to impose his own moral compass on the world, and is rather outspoken in his manners of doing so. Note that while the PHB says that Law can include 'Close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalism, and lack of adapability', very, very few LG characters display these traits. Why? In general, it is assumed that Good aligned characters portray, for the most part, the positive aspects of either Law, Neutrality, or Chaos. Lawful Good characters are Honorable, Trustworthy, Obedient, and Reliable. Some LG characters may have a few of the traits listed above, but virtually none of them would portray all these aspects. Which facets of Law they portray is defined by their personality and unique perspective. Furthermore, consider possible definitions of 'irresponsible': Irresponsible adj : showing lack of care for consequences; "behaved like an irresponsible idiot"; "hasty and irresponsible action" A spontaneous character can be both Good (desiring to do right) and Chaotic (showing lack of discipline, being rash). The students who uprose against the aristocratic tyranny of a government in Les Miserables by barricading the streets and protesting were Chaotic Good. In that sense, a self-appointed slayer of tyrants could be rash (you're going against an entire palace full of guards? Doesn't that qualify as... um... stupid?) but good. Unless, of course, you make all your Lawful Good characters be tradition-worshipping, uptight pricks from now on.